Asking the saints to pray for us
I've been watching some videos by Frederica Mathews-Green. One of the videos talked about asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us. I'm trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy better.
Of course, this made the Baptist hairs on the back of my neck stand up. However, she made a point when she said, we ask others to pray fore us, why not ask the Saints?
So, the reason for my post is to see what books I might buy to help me better understand this.
mm.
Comments
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Having tried and failed to get certain groups of Protestants to understand that most of the Christians in the world do not limit their requests for prayers by fellow Christians to living Christians, I have come to the conclusion that this is the primary question dividing Christendom. For the life of me, I can't understand their objections. The difference seems to be in the relationship that living Christians have to Christians who have experienced death. I know of no resource that addresses that issue but understanding the iconography of a traditional Orthodox Church with its walls completely covered with icons may be the best experiential place to start. Lacking access to either of the Russian Orthodox Cathedrals in San Francisco:
[quote]CHAPTER 10
The Intercessions of the Saints
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Rev. 5:8)
Cornelius has died and been raised with Christ in baptism. He partakes of His resurrected Body and Blood in the Eucharist. As a member of the Body of Christ, he is united to the resurrected Lord and is a “partaker of the divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4).
All of this has been made possible by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, by His victory over death and the devil. This was the preaching of the Apostle Peter, the good news that the Son of God became man “that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb. 2:14).
Cornelius understands this to mean that, for those who are in Christ, death also no longer reigns, “no longer has dominion” (Rom. 6:9). “Isn’t it true,” he thinks to himself aloud, “that after the Lord’s Resurrection the saints who had died were raised, coming out of their graves and appearing to the disciples in Jerusalem?” (See Matt. 27:52–53.) He pauses thoughtfully for a moment. “Surely, death cannot hold those who are united to Jesus. Surely death itself cannot separate us from the love of Christ!” (See Rom. 8:35, 38.)
Cornelius also knows that God has united “all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth” (Eph. 1:10). This communion of heaven and earth in Christ is particularly evident in the assembly of the Church, where not only Christ is present, but both angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb. 12:23).
He understands that those who are “dead in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16) and those “members of Christ” (1 Cor. 6:15) on earth cannot be separated by death, for both are living in Him. Did not Jesus say that the Father “is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32)? And did not Jesus speak to Moses on the mountain (Matt. 17:3) during his earthly ministry?
Reflecting on these things, Cornelius understands with more clarity why the Church calls upon the prayers of those saints who have departed this life, yet are “with Christ” (Phil. 1:23).Introduction
With the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, a new and glorious reality dawned upon the whole creation, especially for those united to the resurrected Christ by faith in baptism. For the good news of the gospel, as summed up in the Orthodox Christian paschal hymn, is that “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by [His own] death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!” As the first Adam sowed corruption and death into the fabric of the human race, the Resurrection of Jesus, the “New Adam,” initiates a renewed, grace-filled humanity that is impervious to the tyranny and power of death.
This new “race” of man, of which Christ is the “father” (Is. 9:6) and the “firstborn” (Rev. 1:5), is birthed in the baptismal font and nourished by the incorruptible food and drink of Christ’s own deathless Flesh and Blood received in the Eucharist. Baptism is described by the Apostle Paul as our participation in Christ’s death, that “we also should walk in the newness of life” (Rom. 6:4), that is, the resurrected life. And the Lord Himself identifies the participation in His Body and Blood as the means by which we are raised unto “eternal life” (John 6:54). So central to the gospel is the preaching of Jesus’ Resurrection and its implications for mankind that the Athenians imagined St. Paul preached two deities, Jesus and the Resurrection (Greek: anastasios; Acts 17:18).
The Christian faith is not primarily a set of doctrines or moral teachings, but a new way of life inspired and made possible by the reality of the Resurrection. In the Person of the resurrected Christ, humanity has been given the potential to participate in the divine life, to be shot through with the uncreated grace and energies of God Himself. This potential begins to be realized in each human person when he or she is joined by “water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) to the Church, which is itself the resurrected “body of Christ” (1 Cor. 12:27).
The Body of Christ, those who are united to Him, are no longer futilely bound by the limitations of corrupt nature, nor by the spiritual separation that has its source in sin and death. For Christ overcomes the division between heaven and earth, uncreated and created, invisible and visible, male and female, and finally, life and death.
All of this is to emphasize that the Resurrection of Jesus is not merely an abstract doctrine to believe in, not merely an isolated past event to assent to intellectually, but an organic reality to enter into and assimilate into one’s being in Christ’s Body, the Church. The Resurrection is the very life and atmosphere of God’s Church, made present by the Holy Spirit, and breathed into our souls by means of the divine worship of the Church through the union of heaven and earth in Christ.
The natural implication of this unity of heaven and earth in the Church, as attested to by the Scriptures and the saints, is the union and communion shared by those who are “in Christ.” This union transcends death. Death has no more power for those joined to Christ. Because of the Resurrection of Christ, death can no longer separate man from God nor man from his brother in Christ, whether from the living or among the departed.
Therefore, the ancient Christian practice of calling upon the intercessions of the departed saints was and is born from a living faith in the radical consequences of the Resurrection of Jesus. For “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32). If indeed the departed in Christ are alive in Him, then the earthly Church will naturally keep the memory of, relate to, and call upon as intercessors with Him those members of the heavenly Church who are sharers in the eternal fruits of His Resurrection.
As the first generation of Christians, and most especially the apostles, began to depart to eternal life, the Church naturally remembered them and sought their prayers before the throne of God, especially when they gathered together for the Eucharist. Inasmuch as the Eucharist is the “remembrance” (Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24; in Greek anamnesis, re-calling, re-presenting) of the Lord’s death and Resurrection and a participation in the eternal heavenly liturgy, it supplies the most fitting experience of the communion between the living and departed. In the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Apostle Paul clearly acknowledges the presence of “the spirits of just men made perfect” (i.e. departed saints) along with “an innumerable company of angels” in the midst of the eucharistic assembly (Heb. 12:23).
As evidenced by the earliest surviving liturgical texts from throughout the world, the Church consistently and universally entreated the martyrs—often recent martyrs from the local region—for their intercessions on behalf of those Christians still racing toward the finish. In particular, the memory of the martyrs was kept on the date of their martyrdom, when the Church gathered to celebrate their birth into eternal life. We have direct testimony of this practice from the middle of the second century in an eyewitness account of the martyrdom of St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, an eighty-six-year-old disciple of the Apostle John. After his remains were burned by the centurion, we hear the following from the account:Accordingly, we later took up his bones, more precious than costly stones and finer than gold, and deposited them in a suitable place. And there, in so far as it is possible, the Lord will grant that we come together with joy and gladness and celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom both in memory of those who have contended [for the faith in martyrdom] in former times and for the exercise and training of those who will do so in the future.1
In the Revelation of St. John, we are given a glimpse of the active concern shown in heaven by the martyrs for their persecuted brethren below, for they cry to the Lord for His swift intervention, saying, “How long, O Lord?” (Rev. 6:10). It is not an accident that, in this same passage, the souls of these interceding martyrs are found “under the altar.” Here we see testimony of the Church’s ancient practice of placing the bone of a martyr inside the altar on which the Eucharist will be offered. It also reveals the continuity of heavenly and earthly worship in the Church.
The practice of requesting the intercessions of departed Christians is also attested to by the inscriptions on tombs in the catacombs, both those of martyrs and those of other departed Christians, including children and even baptized infants. The fact that the intercessions of the departed existed in the eucharistic prayers of local churches in every region of the Roman Empire suggests that the source of this practice is the oral instruction passed down by the apostles themselves.
St. Augustine provides a theological explanation of the Church’s liturgical practice.Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ.2
In another place he specifically mentions the practice of asking for the intercessions of the martyrs:
At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.3
THE PROTESTANT POSITION
The Protestant Reformers, who disagreed among themselves on other issues, universally rejected the invocation of the saints, at least as it was practiced in the Church of Rome.4 Martin Luther called it “one of the abuses of the Antichrist” and simply “idolatry.”5
Much of this rejection came about in reaction against the abuses associated with indulgences, which, in Luther’s words, “are granted to the living and the dead (for money) and by which the pope sells the merits of Christ together with the superabundant merits of all the saints and the entire Church.”6 The current Catholic Catechism defines an indulgence as:a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.7
The doctrine of indulgences was in fact the major catalyst for the Protestant Reformation and had become intertwined with Rome’s teaching and practice with regard to the departed saints. This is because the treasury of satisfactions (or “merits”) included both the infinite merits resulting from the work of Christ and the merits acquired by the saints through their prayers and good works. Since, it was taught, the saints had accumulated “merit” over and above what was necessary for their own salvation, these extra merits could be transferred to Christians in the form of indulgences for the benefit of their souls and for a reduction of time in purgatory after death.
The Roman Church makes a distinction between the guilt of sin and the temporal punishment that, it maintains, always accompanies sin. The guilt of sin committed after baptism is forgiven in Christ through the Sacrament of Confession, but the temporal effects of sin remain and require purification. This purification can be accomplished by various good (meritorious) works, often prescribed as penances, or by indulgences that may lessen or completely alleviate the punishment. In Roman Catholic theology, penances are prescribed to make satisfaction for the temporal punishment for sin and thus to reduce or eliminate the need for time spent in purgatory (purifying fire) after death.
For the Reformers, Christ had satisfied the debt of sin, and there were no works man could do to contribute to his salvation. For those who believe in Christ, there was no longer any debt to be paid or punishment to be had. As the Reformers sought to condemn and root out the innovative doctrine of indulgences, they also eliminated belief in the role of the saints in the salvation of the faithful. They rejected the Roman teaching of the treasury of merits and considered the merits of the saints unnecessary and irrelevant to salvation. Viewing the issue through the same Roman perspective, and concerned to avoid any appearance of salvation being achieved through works, they could see no value in Christians invoking the prayers of what Luther called “angels and dead saints.”
Luther’s rejection of the intercessions of the saints was part and parcel with his rejection of the Roman Mass in general,8 along with the masses in honor of the saints, various fasts and feast days for them, and other liturgical practices. His main concern was that Christians might “trust in” the saints for their salvation. He did believe that the angels in heaven pray for Christians, and even allowed the possibility that the saints in heaven pray for those on earth, but he adamantly rejected the idea of Christians “praying to” the saints in heaven.
Certainly, the fact that the Reformers embraced sola scriptura also influenced their rejection of the intercessions of saints. As Luther interpreted, “There is not a single word from God demanding us to call upon either saints or angels to intercede for us, and that there is no example of such in the Scriptures.”9 With the Scriptures as the sole source for discerning authentic Christian doctrine and life, the Church Tradition would not stand. The many abuses of the time—indulgences, false relics, and an assortment of excessive and superstitious attitudes and practices related to the saints—simply reinforced the view of the veneration of saints as an obstacle to pure Christian life.
Today, in some mainline Protestant denominations, there remains a certain distant appreciation for the example of the early Christian saints and martyrs as sources of inspiration. However, the notion that the saints may be active in the lives of believers as intercessors and agents or conduits of God’s grace and power is missing. For all practical purposes, the lives of the saints have no role or value in the ecclesial or personal lives of Protestant Christians. The one exception would be the stories of the righteous in the Old Testament, and to a lesser degree, those in the New Testament.
CLARIFICATIONSOrthodox Christians do not pray to the saints as Protestants understand this phrase. Rather, we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In Old English the word pray can mean to “ask imploringly,” to “request,” or in general to communicate. For example, “Pray tell me, where you are going?” Praying to saints does not imply worship or the kind of prayer that is offered to God. Prayer in this sense means asking those departed in Christ to pray for us before God.
For most evangelicals, even the term “saints,” as it is usually used in Orthodoxy, is objectionable. This is because Protestants seek to emphasize that all Christians are called to be holy (the word saint means “holy”), and the term is generally used for all Christians in the New Testament. Again as a reaction against certain practices among Roman Catholics, evangelicals reject what they see as creating a separate class of believers by calling them saints.
In the Orthodox Church, we affirm the truth that all those who believe and are united to Christ in holy baptism are indeed holy. But we simultaneously embrace what became the practice in the early centuries of the Church, to refer to those who excelled in holiness among the saints as “saints” in a more particular sense. Note that in the Divine Liturgy the priest invites the faithful to Holy Communion with the words, “Holy things are for the holy” (i.e., the saints, referring to all Christians who have not disqualified themselves from Holy Communion through sin).
THE HOLY SCRIPTURES ON THE INTERCESSIONS OF THE SAINTSIt is true that there is very little explicit evidence for prayer to the departed in the Holy Scriptures. However, the whole context of the Scriptures shows us that through His redemptive work, His Cross and Resurrection, Christ has broken down the barrier between heaven and earth, and therefore between those who are in Christ, whether in heaven or on earth. Most Protestant Christians have not considered deeply these implications of Christ’s Resurrection.
The following biblical quotes reveal how reality itself has changed due to the Lord’s destruction of death and His Resurrection. By the death of Christ, the limitations and barriers between heaven and earth, departed and living, church in heaven and church on earth, have been abolished.Separation between heaven and earth abolished
Matt. 27:51 (Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45): Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. [Note: The veil or curtain of the temple separated the holy place from the Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest was allowed to enter once per year. The curtain of the temple not only symbolizes the barrier between God and man, but also between heaven and earth. “From top to bottom” indicates that the heavenly and earthly realms are no longer separated.]
Righteous dead are raised and appear to those on earth
Matt. 27:52–53: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Heaven and earth united in Christ
Eph. 1:10: that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
The dead in Christ are alive
Matt. 22:32: “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
Rom. 14:8–9: For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Jesus, the Incarnate Christ, talks with Moses and Elijah
Matt. 17:1–3: Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Angels and saints in heaven intercede for the saints on earth
Rev. 5:8: Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures [angels] and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints [on earth].
Angel offers prayers of the saints on earth
Rev. 8:3–4: Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.
Angels and departed saints present at Christian worship
Heb. 12:22–23: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.
THE CHURCH FATHERS ON THE INTERCESSIONS OF SAINTS & ANGELSClement of Alexandria (c. AD 150–c. 215)
In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]. (Miscellanies 7:12 [AD 208])
Origen (AD 184/185–253/254)
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels … as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep. (Prayer 11 [AD 233])
St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. AD 200–258)
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy. (Letters 56[60]:5 [AD 253])
St. Methodius of Olympus (died c. AD 311)
Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us. (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [AD 305])
And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy faith, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. (Ibid.)
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. AD 313–386)
Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition. (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [AD 350])
Hilary of Poitiers (c. AD 310–c. 367)
To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting. (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [AD 365])
St. Ephrem the Syrian (c. AD 306–373)
You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him. (Commentary on Mark [AD 370])
Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day. (The Fear at the End of Life [AD 370])
Early Prayer to the Virgin Mary (prior to AD 250)
Under your compassion we take refuge, Theotokos; do not overlook our prayers in the midst of tribulation, but deliver us from danger, O only pure, only blessed one.10
Anonymous Catacomb Inscriptions (AD 300–350)
Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins. (Funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [AD 300])
Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days. (Ibid.)
St. Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea (c. AD 329/330–379)
By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints … by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name. (Liturgy of St. Basil [AD 373])
St. Jerome (c. AD 347–420)
But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [AD 406])
Blessed Augustine of Hippo (AD 354–430)
At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps. (Homilies on John 84 [AD 416])
OBJECTIONS AND RESPONSESSince the topic of the intercession of the saints is usually met with many objections and misunderstandings, along with Bible passages that seemingly contradict or forbid it, we have provided a series of common objections (O) with responses (R) in order to provide more insight into this normative Christian practice.
O: But in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19–31) it is said that there is a “great chasm” between heaven and earth.
R: The “great chasm” spoken of (v. 26) is between heaven (“the bosom of Abraham”) and the torment of Hades, not between heaven and earth. When the rich man requests that the Lord send Lazarus to his seven brothers on earth, the Lord refuses, not because this is not possible, but because his brothers would not believe even if it occurred.
O: But why waste time praying to the saints when we can pray to the Lord?
R: We could say the same thing in regard to asking for the prayers of Christians still living on this earth—something we do all the time, and something we all know we need. We also ask those Christians who have departed, who are with Christ and in an even greater spiritual condition, to pray for us. We are not lone rangers in the spiritual life; we need the prayers and help of others. Unlike those still living in this world, the saints do not get tired or distracted or forget to pray for us. They have a boldness before Christ that most on earth do not. As the Scriptures say, “The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much” (James 5:16).
There is no competition between the Lord and His saints, since the saints, like the angels, are the ministers of His will and glory. It is Christ who is glorified in and through the saints. As He Himself says, “I am glorified in them” (John 17:10). Christ loves His saints, the lives they led, and even their death, for “Precious in the sight of the Lord / is the death of His saints” (Ps. 116/115:15). They are saints because they share in His glory and the glory of His Father by the grace of the Holy Spirit. His saints have become vessels of His divine grace, which He freely shares with those who have faith in Him. As such they testify to Him and His holiness, and all they do is for His glory and directed by His will. As Christ is the icon (image) of God by nature, so the saints are also by grace.
By God’s grace, the Orthodox Church does not have a history of excessive or abusive practices with regard to the saints’ intercessory prayers, nor has the Church ever discouraged the faithful from praying directly to God, whether the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, as is attested to by the services and prayers of the Church.
O: In the Old Testament God forbids conjuring up the spirits of the dead (Deut. 18:11).
R: First we have to understand that the practices warned about and forbidden in the Old Testament were pagan in origin and purpose, and they relied not upon faith in the true God but in demonic sorcery, witchcraft, and the like. They were practiced for sinful and evil purposes. God’s primary intention in these warnings was to protect the spiritually immature people of the Old Covenant from adopting the pagan religion of their neighbors.
Next, we must remember that Christ’s death and Resurrection have changed everything—the nature of death has been transformed and essentially made powerless. Through Christ the righteous dead have been raised with Him and are alive in Him. Through the Holy Spirit, members of Christ’s Church ask these living and resurrected saints to pray to the Lord on their behalf.
O: We should not ask for the intercessions of the saints since, as the Scriptures say, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).
R: It is true that Christ alone is the Mediator between God and man, since He alone is both God and Man. Christ alone can save man from sin and death. He alone broke down the barrier that separated man from God and restored our union with God the Father. The saints are not mediators in this sense, nor do we imagine that they accomplish the redemption that Christ does. Rather, through their prayers they beseech the Savior to save us. They pray to the Lord that He extend to us the salvation that only He could and did accomplish. They are able to intercede with Christ for our needs and well-being. They are not separated from Christ the Mediator but are “members of Christ” (1 Cor. 6:15), yet no longer hampered by the limitations of this world. They are God’s faithful servants and “members of the household of God” (Eph. 2:19). The servants work for their Master. Servants run errands for and carry messages to the Master, yet they are not the Master. Finally, if we believe the saints in heaven cannot be mediators in the sense of praying to Christ for us, then we must cease asking the prayers of those living on this earth, since, using the same logic, this would transgress the Scriptures regarding Christ as the only Mediator.
O: How do you know the saints can hear you?
R: How do you know they cannot? The Lord said, “The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God” (John 5:25). While this refers to Christ’s descent into Hades after His Crucifixion, the Church has never taught that the dead are cut off from the goings-on of this world. According to the Revelation of St. John, the souls of the martyrs were well aware of the turmoil and persecutions on earth (Rev. 6:9). The saints can hear us because they are united to Christ and share in His attributes by grace. They share in His divine glory and virtue, through which they are the agents of miracles, both during their earthly lives and after. They hear inasmuch as Christ hears and according to His will and their freedom in Christ.
1 Apostolic Fathers, p. 148.2 The City of God 20:9:2 [AD 419].
3 Homilies on John 84 [AD 416].
4 Ironically, earlier in his life as a Roman Catholic, Luther attributed his being saved from death during a storm to his prayers to St. Anna, the mother of the Virgin Mary. It was as a result of this event and an oath he made to her in his prayer of desperation that he became a Roman Catholic monk. (V. Rev. Josiah Trenham, Rock and Sand: An Orthodox Appraisal of the Protestant Reformers and Their Teachings, Columbia, MO: Newrome Press, 2015, p. 11.)
5 Denis R. Janz, ed., A Reformation Reader: Primary Texts with Introductions (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 1999), p. 125.
6 Ibid.
7 Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 370.
8 Luther abhorred Rome’s teaching that every Mass was a “re-sacrifice” of Christ. (See Admonition Concerning the Sacrament, Luther’s Works, vol. 38, Word and Sacrament, pp. 117–118).
9 An Open Letter on Translating, Martin Luther (AD 1530), http://www.bible-researcher.com/luther01.html
10 A description of the discovery and dating of an ancient fragment with this prayer is found in Frederica Mathewes-Green, The Lost Gospel of Mary (Brewster, MA: Paraclete Press, 2007), pp. 83–88.
Michael Shanbour, Know the Faith: A Handbook for Orthodox Christians and Inquirers (Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publications, 2016), 295–313.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Milkman said:
I've been watching some videos by Frederica Mathews-Green. One of the videos talked about asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us. I'm trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy better.
Same thing is also on my to-do list.
Milkman said:Of course, this made the Baptist hairs on the back of my neck stand up. However, she made a point when she said, we ask others to pray fore us, why not ask the Saints?
So, the reason for my post is to see what books I might buy to help me better understand this.
A direct response to that argument is in Norm Geisler's "Correcting the Cults".
The practice also insults the intercession of the Holy Spirit. Much of the Catholic justification for praying to the saints is based on the seemingly plausible argument that, because of their position in heaven, they may be better able to intercede on our behalf. This is a practical denial of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, whose task it is to do this very thing on our behalf. And who is better able to make intercessions for us than another person of the blessed Trinity? The Bible says, “we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words” (Rom. 8:26b NASB). Paul adds in Ephesians, “For through him [Christ] we both have access in one Spirit to the Father” (Eph. 2:18 NASB). Since beyond our explicit prayers to God the Holy Spirit intercedes for us perfectly “according to God’s will” (Rom. 8:27) there is no need to call on anyone else in heaven to do so. To expect any human being to be more efficacious with God the Father than God the Son and God the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:1–2) is to insult his divinely-appointed role.
Norman Geisler und Ron Rhodes, Correcting the Cults: Expert Responses to Their Scripture Twisting (Baker Publishing Group, 1997), 278.
(For the record, I'm not implying here that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are cults, but want to quote a response from an Evangelical point of view.)
For further study, the cited work in Geisler's ST looks promising, but I don't own it.
It is within this framework that contemporary Roman Catholic apologists attempt to find a biblical basis for the practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Karl Keating states, “To fundamentalists the term communion of saints and its allied term, the Mystical Body of Christ, mean nothing.”51 He continues by mentioning the Pauline development of the unity of Christ’s body;52 however, admittedly, “Paul is writing about the members of the Church Militant [on earth], but his teaching on the Mystical Body [of Christ] implies that prayers unite us with the Church Triumphant [in heaven], too” (CF, 263–64). While perhaps we are united with the church triumphant in the sense of sharing the same goals—goals that departed believers had while they themselves were struggling in this “vale of tears”53—it seems a great stretch to go beyond this understanding and find biblical sanction for the reality of intercessory prayer between the two groups of believers.
Norman L. Geisler, Systematic theology, volume four: church, last things (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 2005), 379–380.
51 See his Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on Romanism by Bible Christians (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988), 263. Much depends on Keating’s definition of fundamentalists. Neither Kreeft nor Keating is averse to being characterized as fundamental in regard to theological matters, and both authors accept the authenticity of the terms in question.
52 Cf. Rom. 12:4–5; 15:30; 1 Cor. 12:25–27; Eph. 6:18.
53 “We Journey Through a Vale of Tears.” Words by Bernard Barton, music by Berthold Tours.
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I simple search for "pray* to saints" pops up 154 different resources in my medium sized library. Many are journals or encyclopedias. There seems to be a wealth of perspectives on the topic.
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A search of "praying to saints" OR "asking for saint to pray" brings up 353 resources in my library - mostly from the Early English literature collection and mostly Reformation polemic rather than serious discussion. I suspect it is discussed so much because it is a much safer argument than the underlying issue of the relationship of the living and dead in the church ... and the state of the dead.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Biblical Evidence for the Communion of Saints includes this line: The saints are alive, they observe us (“cloud of witnesses”: Heb 12:1), pray for us (Rev 6:9–10), and hence it follows logically that they can hear our intercessory requests, as can guardian angels (Matt 18:10).
There are some mentions of prayer to Saints and for Saints in N.T. Wright's For All the Saints? Remembering the Christian Departed, though he is not generally in favor of it.
I would also search for "invocation of saints" or "intercession of saints" in your Library. Most of what you find will probably be refutations of that doctrine by Protestants, but if you have any books by Orthodox authors you might find some stuff there.
Going beyond Logos:
There's a short, inexpensive Kindle book, Praying to the Dead?: Invoking the Saints in Christian Prayer by Mark Whitten, who is an ordained priest and planter of an Orthodox church.
A classic from the early 20th century is The Invocation of Saints by Darwell Stone (1859-1941), who was an Anglo-Catholic theologian and Church of England priest. More substantial than the previous one, but still not too expensive. It's an image-only reproduction, not OCR'ed, so there are no OCR errors, but you also can't select the text.
Wikipedia isn't a reliable source of information, but it can give an overview and send you to references for more trustworthy info. It has a good article on Intercession of saints, with a section on the Biblical basis for it.
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Also, someone should create Feedbear requests for all of Frederica Mathewes-Green's books that are available digitally (Kindle) but aren't yet in Logos. I would but I just don't have time to be so exhaustive about requests these days.
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She does have one book in Logos. Unless you already knew this [:)]
At the Corner of East and Now: A Modern Life in Ancient Christian Orthodoxy
Rosie Perera said:Also, someone should create Feedbear requests for all of Frederica Mathewes-Green's books that are available digitally (Kindle) but aren't yet in Logos. I would but I just don't have time to be so exhaustive about requests these days.
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Rosie Perera said:
Also, someone should create Feedbear requests for all of Frederica Mathewes-Green's books that are available digitally (Kindle) but aren't yet in Logos. I would but I just don't have time to be so exhaustive about requests these days.
Her books are already "gathering interest" in the store so people can pre-order them to push them into production.
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Looks like I've got my reading for the next while.
Thanks for your replies.
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MJ. Smith said:
Michael Shanbour, Know the Faith: A Handbook for Orthodox Christians and Inquirers (Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publications, 2016), 295–313.
For those who would like to purchase the book MJ quoted, available in Logos:
Know the Faith: A Handbook for Orthodox Christians and Inquirers | Logos Bible Software
There's also a chapter on veneration of Mary.
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I’m a saint here on earth and the Bible asks us to pray for one another, so if you need prayers just ask me or other saints. I don’t think the saints that have passed away can hear you. At least, the concept is not taught in the Scriptures.
DAL
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No where do they pray for us (Rev 6:9–10), read the verse, they are asking judgment against the earth dwellers. That is someone reading their presupposition into the text.
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Okay guys, keep this resource oriented. Your personal theology is not appropriate if only because it is a temptation to me to sin by breaking the guidelines in multiple ways.
DAL said:I don’t think the saints that have passed away can hear you
Epistemological not theological, you realize just under a third of American would disagree on the basis of personal experience with communicating with the dead (Pew Research)?
And theologically, since one side started out talking about the Body of Christ which is countered by talking about the intercession of the Holy Spirit, I suspect the views are so far apart, there is no agreement even on which branch of systematic theology applies. Another good use case for the Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance - Logos Forums to consider.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Facts are facts. If God had wanted us to ask those who have passed away to pray for us, He would’ve stated it. Even Paul asked the Ephesians to pray for him. Nowhere in any of his letters did he give the slightest hint he asked the dead to pray for him or instructed us to ask the dead saints to pray for him or us for that matter. I think Orthodox theology and/or tradition is what’s being asked about here. For that I have no resources to recommend.
DAL
Ps. As I’ve stated in another thread, we should all claim to be relativist and pluralist as no one wants to really stand for anything since no one wants to be perceived ”the wrong way.”
Maybe it’s time to revise the “guidelines” and keep the forum’s discussion for the software and product (e.g. Logos, Verbum, Proclaim) and no asking for resources about some theological point of view which already carries a theological discussion embedded in it. I believe everyone would know how to use the software better if the discussions would stay focused on the software or products (proclaim, connect, etc.) instead of “resources on any given topic that promotes any particular theological point of view.
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DAL said:
Facts are facts. If God had wanted us to ask those who have passed away to pray for us, He would’ve stated it. Even Paul asked the Ephesians to pray for him. Nowhere in any of his letters did he give the slightest hint he asked the dead to pray for him or instructed us to ask the dead saints to pray for him or us for that matter. I think Orthodox theology and/or tradition is what’s being asked about here. For that I have no resources to recommend.
DAL
Ps. As I’ve stated in another thread, we should all claim to be relativist and pluralist as no one wants to really stand for anything since no one wants to be perceived ”the wrong way.”
I know we're not allowed to debate theology, so I'll simply say I agree. My dad used to explain praying to the saints like you might prefer to ask your class teacher to speak to your headmaster. That explanation seemed to me to miss the point God is a loving heavenly father who has time for us and also miss Jan's comments above.
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MJ. Smith said:
Having tried and failed to get certain groups of Protestants to understand that most of the Christians in the world do not limit their requests for prayers by fellow Christians to living Christians, I have come to the conclusion that this is the primary question dividing Christendom. For the life of me, I can't understand their objections. The difference seems to be in the relationship that living Christians have to Christians who have experienced death. I know of no resource that addresses that issue but understanding the iconography of a traditional Orthodox Church with its walls completely covered with icons may be the best experiential place to start. Lacking access to either of the Russian Orthodox Cathedrals in San Francisco:
[quote]CHAPTER 10
The Intercessions of the Saints
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Rev. 5:8)
Cornelius has died and been raised with Christ in baptism. He partakes of His resurrected Body and Blood in the Eucharist. As a member of the Body of Christ, he is united to the resurrected Lord and is a “partaker of the divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4).
All of this has been made possible by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, by His victory over death and the devil. This was the preaching of the Apostle Peter, the good news that the Son of God became man “that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb. 2:14).
Cornelius understands this to mean that, for those who are in Christ, death also no longer reigns, “no longer has dominion” (Rom. 6:9). “Isn’t it true,” he thinks to himself aloud, “that after the Lord’s Resurrection the saints who had died were raised, coming out of their graves and appearing to the disciples in Jerusalem?” (See Matt. 27:52–53.) He pauses thoughtfully for a moment. “Surely, death cannot hold those who are united to Jesus. Surely death itself cannot separate us from the love of Christ!” (See Rom. 8:35, 38.)
Cornelius also knows that God has united “all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth” (Eph. 1:10). This communion of heaven and earth in Christ is particularly evident in the assembly of the Church, where not only Christ is present, but both angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb. 12:23).
He understands that those who are “dead in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16) and those “members of Christ” (1 Cor. 6:15) on earth cannot be separated by death, for both are living in Him. Did not Jesus say that the Father “is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32)? And did not Jesus speak to Moses on the mountain (Matt. 17:3) during his earthly ministry?
Reflecting on these things, Cornelius understands with more clarity why the Church calls upon the prayers of those saints who have departed this life, yet are “with Christ” (Phil. 1:23).Introduction
With the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, a new and glorious reality dawned upon the whole creation, especially for those united to the resurrected Christ by faith in baptism. For the good news of the gospel, as summed up in the Orthodox Christian paschal hymn, is that “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by [His own] death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!” As the first Adam sowed corruption and death into the fabric of the human race, the Resurrection of Jesus, the “New Adam,” initiates a renewed, grace-filled humanity that is impervious to the tyranny and power of death.
This new “race” of man, of which Christ is the “father” (Is. 9:6) and the “firstborn” (Rev. 1:5), is birthed in the baptismal font and nourished by the incorruptible food and drink of Christ’s own deathless Flesh and Blood received in the Eucharist. Baptism is described by the Apostle Paul as our participation in Christ’s death, that “we also should walk in the newness of life” (Rom. 6:4), that is, the resurrected life. And the Lord Himself identifies the participation in His Body and Blood as the means by which we are raised unto “eternal life” (John 6:54). So central to the gospel is the preaching of Jesus’ Resurrection and its implications for mankind that the Athenians imagined St. Paul preached two deities, Jesus and the Resurrection (Greek: anastasios; Acts 17:18).
The Christian faith is not primarily a set of doctrines or moral teachings, but a new way of life inspired and made possible by the reality of the Resurrection. In the Person of the resurrected Christ, humanity has been given the potential to participate in the divine life, to be shot through with the uncreated grace and energies of God Himself. This potential begins to be realized in each human person when he or she is joined by “water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) to the Church, which is itself the resurrected “body of Christ” (1 Cor. 12:27).
The Body of Christ, those who are united to Him, are no longer futilely bound by the limitations of corrupt nature, nor by the spiritual separation that has its source in sin and death. For Christ overcomes the division between heaven and earth, uncreated and created, invisible and visible, male and female, and finally, life and death.
All of this is to emphasize that the Resurrection of Jesus is not merely an abstract doctrine to believe in, not merely an isolated past event to assent to intellectually, but an organic reality to enter into and assimilate into one’s being in Christ’s Body, the Church. The Resurrection is the very life and atmosphere of God’s Church, made present by the Holy Spirit, and breathed into our souls by means of the divine worship of the Church through the union of heaven and earth in Christ.
The natural implication of this unity of heaven and earth in the Church, as attested to by the Scriptures and the saints, is the union and communion shared by those who are “in Christ.” This union transcends death. Death has no more power for those joined to Christ. Because of the Resurrection of Christ, death can no longer separate man from God nor man from his brother in Christ, whether from the living or among the departed.
Therefore, the ancient Christian practice of calling upon the intercessions of the departed saints was and is born from a living faith in the radical consequences of the Resurrection of Jesus. For “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32). If indeed the departed in Christ are alive in Him, then the earthly Church will naturally keep the memory of, relate to, and call upon as intercessors with Him those members of the heavenly Church who are sharers in the eternal fruits of His Resurrection.
As the first generation of Christians, and most especially the apostles, began to depart to eternal life, the Church naturally remembered them and sought their prayers before the throne of God, especially when they gathered together for the Eucharist. Inasmuch as the Eucharist is the “remembrance” (Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24; in Greek anamnesis, re-calling, re-presenting) of the Lord’s death and Resurrection and a participation in the eternal heavenly liturgy, it supplies the most fitting experience of the communion between the living and departed. In the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Apostle Paul clearly acknowledges the presence of “the spirits of just men made perfect” (i.e. departed saints) along with “an innumerable company of angels” in the midst of the eucharistic assembly (Heb. 12:23).
As evidenced by the earliest surviving liturgical texts from throughout the world, the Church consistently and universally entreated the martyrs—often recent martyrs from the local region—for their intercessions on behalf of those Christians still racing toward the finish. In particular, the memory of the martyrs was kept on the date of their martyrdom, when the Church gathered to celebrate their birth into eternal life. We have direct testimony of this practice from the middle of the second century in an eyewitness account of the martyrdom of St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, an eighty-six-year-old disciple of the Apostle John. After his remains were burned by the centurion, we hear the following from the account:Accordingly, we later took up his bones, more precious than costly stones and finer than gold, and deposited them in a suitable place. And there, in so far as it is possible, the Lord will grant that we come together with joy and gladness and celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom both in memory of those who have contended [for the faith in martyrdom] in former times and for the exercise and training of those who will do so in the future.1
In the Revelation of St. John, we are given a glimpse of the active concern shown in heaven by the martyrs for their persecuted brethren below, for they cry to the Lord for His swift intervention, saying, “How long, O Lord?” (Rev. 6:10). It is not an accident that, in this same passage, the souls of these interceding martyrs are found “under the altar.” Here we see testimony of the Church’s ancient practice of placing the bone of a martyr inside the altar on which the Eucharist will be offered. It also reveals the continuity of heavenly and earthly worship in the Church.
The practice of requesting the intercessions of departed Christians is also attested to by the inscriptions on tombs in the catacombs, both those of martyrs and those of other departed Christians, including children and even baptized infants. The fact that the intercessions of the departed existed in the eucharistic prayers of local churches in every region of the Roman Empire suggests that the source of this practice is the oral instruction passed down by the apostles themselves.
St. Augustine provides a theological explanation of the Church’s liturgical practice.Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ.2
In another place he specifically mentions the practice of asking for the intercessions of the martyrs:
At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.3
THE PROTESTANT POSITION
The Protestant Reformers, who disagreed among themselves on other issues, universally rejected the invocation of the saints, at least as it was practiced in the Church of Rome.4 Martin Luther called it “one of the abuses of the Antichrist” and simply “idolatry.”5
Much of this rejection came about in reaction against the abuses associated with indulgences, which, in Luther’s words, “are granted to the living and the dead (for money) and by which the pope sells the merits of Christ together with the superabundant merits of all the saints and the entire Church.”6 The current Catholic Catechism defines an indulgence as:a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.7
The doctrine of indulgences was in fact the major catalyst for the Protestant Reformation and had become intertwined with Rome’s teaching and practice with regard to the departed saints. This is because the treasury of satisfactions (or “merits”) included both the infinite merits resulting from the work of Christ and the merits acquired by the saints through their prayers and good works. Since, it was taught, the saints had accumulated “merit” over and above what was necessary for their own salvation, these extra merits could be transferred to Christians in the form of indulgences for the benefit of their souls and for a reduction of time in purgatory after death.
The Roman Church makes a distinction between the guilt of sin and the temporal punishment that, it maintains, always accompanies sin. The guilt of sin committed after baptism is forgiven in Christ through the Sacrament of Confession, but the temporal effects of sin remain and require purification. This purification can be accomplished by various good (meritorious) works, often prescribed as penances, or by indulgences that may lessen or completely alleviate the punishment. In Roman Catholic theology, penances are prescribed to make satisfaction for the temporal punishment for sin and thus to reduce or eliminate the need for time spent in purgatory (purifying fire) after death.
For the Reformers, Christ had satisfied the debt of sin, and there were no works man could do to contribute to his salvation. For those who believe in Christ, there was no longer any debt to be paid or punishment to be had. As the Reformers sought to condemn and root out the innovative doctrine of indulgences, they also eliminated belief in the role of the saints in the salvation of the faithful. They rejected the Roman teaching of the treasury of merits and considered the merits of the saints unnecessary and irrelevant to salvation. Viewing the issue through the same Roman perspective, and concerned to avoid any appearance of salvation being achieved through works, they could see no value in Christians invoking the prayers of what Luther called “angels and dead saints.”
Luther’s rejection of the intercessions of the saints was part and parcel with his rejection of the Roman Mass in general,8 along with the masses in honor of the saints, various fasts and feast days for them, and other liturgical practices. His main concern was that Christians might “trust in” the saints for their salvation. He did believe that the angels in heaven pray for Christians, and even allowed the possibility that the saints in heaven pray for those on earth, but he adamantly rejected the idea of Christians “praying to” the saints in heaven.
Certainly, the fact that the Reformers embraced sola scriptura also influenced their rejection of the intercessions of saints. As Luther interpreted, “There is not a single word from God demanding us to call upon either saints or angels to intercede for us, and that there is no example of such in the Scriptures.”9 With the Scriptures as the sole source for discerning authentic Christian doctrine and life, the Church Tradition would not stand. The many abuses of the time—indulgences, false relics, and an assortment of excessive and superstitious attitudes and practices related to the saints—simply reinforced the view of the veneration of saints as an obstacle to pure Christian life.
Today, in some mainline Protestant denominations, there remains a certain distant appreciation for the example of the early Christian saints and martyrs as sources of inspiration. However, the notion that the saints may be active in the lives of believers as intercessors and agents or conduits of God’s grace and power is missing. For all practical purposes, the lives of the saints have no role or value in the ecclesial or personal lives of Protestant Christians. The one exception would be the stories of the righteous in the Old Testament, and to a lesser degree, those in the New Testament.
CLARIFICATIONSOrthodox Christians do not pray to the saints as Protestants understand this phrase. Rather, we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In Old English the word pray can mean to “ask imploringly,” to “request,” or in general to communicate. For example, “Pray tell me, where you are going?” Praying to saints does not imply worship or the kind of prayer that is offered to God. Prayer in this sense means asking those departed in Christ to pray for us before God.
For most evangelicals, even the term “saints,” as it is usually used in Orthodoxy, is objectionable. This is because Protestants seek to emphasize that all Christians are called to be holy (the word saint means “holy”), and the term is generally used for all Christians in the New Testament. Again as a reaction against certain practices among Roman Catholics, evangelicals reject what they see as creating a separate class of believers by calling them saints.
In the Orthodox Church, we affirm the truth that all those who believe and are united to Christ in holy baptism are indeed holy. But we simultaneously embrace what became the practice in the early centuries of the Church, to refer to those who excelled in holiness among the saints as “saints” in a more particular sense. Note that in the Divine Liturgy the priest invites the faithful to Holy Communion with the words, “Holy things are for the holy” (i.e., the saints, referring to all Christians who have not disqualified themselves from Holy Communion through sin).
THE HOLY SCRIPTURES ON THE INTERCESSIONS OF THE SAINTSIt is true that there is very little explicit evidence for prayer to the departed in the Holy Scriptures. However, the whole context of the Scriptures shows us that through His redemptive work, His Cross and Resurrection, Christ has broken down the barrier between heaven and earth, and therefore between those who are in Christ, whether in heaven or on earth. Most Protestant Christians have not considered deeply these implications of Christ’s Resurrection.
The following biblical quotes reveal how reality itself has changed due to the Lord’s destruction of death and His Resurrection. By the death of Christ, the limitations and barriers between heaven and earth, departed and living, church in heaven and church on earth, have been abolished.Separation between heaven and earth abolished
Matt. 27:51 (Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45): Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. [Note: The veil or curtain of the temple separated the holy place from the Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest was allowed to enter once per year. The curtain of the temple not only symbolizes the barrier between God and man, but also between heaven and earth. “From top to bottom” indicates that the heavenly and earthly realms are no longer separated.]
Righteous dead are raised and appear to those on earth
Matt. 27:52–53: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Heaven and earth united in Christ
Eph. 1:10: that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
The dead in Christ are alive
Matt. 22:32: “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
Rom. 14:8–9: For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Jesus, the Incarnate Christ, talks with Moses and Elijah
Matt. 17:1–3: Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Angels and saints in heaven intercede for the saints on earth
Rev. 5:8: Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures [angels] and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints [on earth].
Angel offers prayers of the saints on earth
Rev. 8:3–4: Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.
Angels and departed saints present at Christian worship
Heb. 12:22–23: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.
THE CHURCH FATHERS ON THE INTERCESSIONS OF SAINTS & ANGELSClement of Alexandria (c. AD 150–c. 215)
In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]. (Miscellanies 7:12 [AD 208])
Origen (AD 184/185–253/254)
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels … as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep. (Prayer 11 [AD 233])
St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. AD 200–258)
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy. (Letters 56[60]:5 [AD 253])
St. Methodius of Olympus (died c. AD 311)
Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us. (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [AD 305])
And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy faith, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. (Ibid.)
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. AD 313–386)
Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition. (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [AD 350])
Hilary of Poitiers (c. AD 310–c. 367)
To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting. (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [AD 365])
St. Ephrem the Syrian (c. AD 306–373)
You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him. (Commentary on Mark [AD 370])
Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day. (The Fear at the End of Life [AD 370])
Early Prayer to the Virgin Mary (prior to AD 250)
Under your compassion we take refuge, Theotokos; do not overlook our prayers in the midst of tribulation, but deliver us from danger, O only pure, only blessed one.10
Anonymous Catacomb Inscriptions (AD 300–350)
Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins. (Funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [AD 300])
Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days. (Ibid.)
St. Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea (c. AD 329/330–379)
By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints … by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name. (Liturgy of St. Basil [AD 373])
St. Jerome (c. AD 347–420)
But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [AD 406])
Blessed Augustine of Hippo (AD 354–430)
At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps. (Homilies on John 84 [AD 416])
OBJECTIONS AND RESPONSESSince the topic of the intercession of the saints is usually met with many objections and misunderstandings, along with Bible passages that seemingly contradict or forbid it, we have provided a series of common objections (O) with responses (R) in order to provide more insight into this normative Christian practice.
O: But in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19–31) it is said that there is a “great chasm” between heaven and earth.
R: The “great chasm” spoken of (v. 26) is between heaven (“the bosom of Abraham”) and the torment of Hades, not between heaven and earth. When the rich man requests that the Lord send Lazarus to his seven brothers on earth, the Lord refuses, not because this is not possible, but because his brothers would not believe even if it occurred.
O: But why waste time praying to the saints when we can pray to the Lord?
R: We could say the same thing in regard to asking for the prayers of Christians still living on this earth—something we do all the time, and something we all know we need. We also ask those Christians who have departed, who are with Christ and in an even greater spiritual condition, to pray for us. We are not lone rangers in the spiritual life; we need the prayers and help of others. Unlike those still living in this world, the saints do not get tired or distracted or forget to pray for us. They have a boldness before Christ that most on earth do not. As the Scriptures say, “The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much” (James 5:16).
There is no competition between the Lord and His saints, since the saints, like the angels, are the ministers of His will and glory. It is Christ who is glorified in and through the saints. As He Himself says, “I am glorified in them” (John 17:10). Christ loves His saints, the lives they led, and even their death, for “Precious in the sight of the Lord / is the death of His saints” (Ps. 116/115:15). They are saints because they share in His glory and the glory of His Father by the grace of the Holy Spirit. His saints have become vessels of His divine grace, which He freely shares with those who have faith in Him. As such they testify to Him and His holiness, and all they do is for His glory and directed by His will. As Christ is the icon (image) of God by nature, so the saints are also by grace.
By God’s grace, the Orthodox Church does not have a history of excessive or abusive practices with regard to the saints’ intercessory prayers, nor has the Church ever discouraged the faithful from praying directly to God, whether the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, as is attested to by the services and prayers of the Church.
O: In the Old Testament God forbids conjuring up the spirits of the dead (Deut. 18:11).
R: First we have to understand that the practices warned about and forbidden in the Old Testament were pagan in origin and purpose, and they relied not upon faith in the true God but in demonic sorcery, witchcraft, and the like. They were practiced for sinful and evil purposes. God’s primary intention in these warnings was to protect the spiritually immature people of the Old Covenant from adopting the pagan religion of their neighbors.
Next, we must remember that Christ’s death and Resurrection have changed everything—the nature of death has been transformed and essentially made powerless. Through Christ the righteous dead have been raised with Him and are alive in Him. Through the Holy Spirit, members of Christ’s Church ask these living and resurrected saints to pray to the Lord on their behalf.
O: We should not ask for the intercessions of the saints since, as the Scriptures say, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).
R: It is true that Christ alone is the Mediator between God and man, since He alone is both God and Man. Christ alone can save man from sin and death. He alone broke down the barrier that separated man from God and restored our union with God the Father. The saints are not mediators in this sense, nor do we imagine that they accomplish the redemption that Christ does. Rather, through their prayers they beseech the Savior to save us. They pray to the Lord that He extend to us the salvation that only He could and did accomplish. They are able to intercede with Christ for our needs and well-being. They are not separated from Christ the Mediator but are “members of Christ” (1 Cor. 6:15), yet no longer hampered by the limitations of this world. They are God’s faithful servants and “members of the household of God” (Eph. 2:19). The servants work for their Master. Servants run errands for and carry messages to the Master, yet they are not the Master. Finally, if we believe the saints in heaven cannot be mediators in the sense of praying to Christ for us, then we must cease asking the prayers of those living on this earth, since, using the same logic, this would transgress the Scriptures regarding Christ as the only Mediator.
O: How do you know the saints can hear you?
R: How do you know they cannot? The Lord said, “The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God” (John 5:25). While this refers to Christ’s descent into Hades after His Crucifixion, the Church has never taught that the dead are cut off from the goings-on of this world. According to the Revelation of St. John, the souls of the martyrs were well aware of the turmoil and persecutions on earth (Rev. 6:9). The saints can hear us because they are united to Christ and share in His attributes by grace. They share in His divine glory and virtue, through which they are the agents of miracles, both during their earthly lives and after. They hear inasmuch as Christ hears and according to His will and their freedom in Christ.
1 Apostolic Fathers, p. 148.2 The City of God 20:9:2 [AD 419].
3 Homilies on John 84 [AD 416].
4 Ironically, earlier in his life as a Roman Catholic, Luther attributed his being saved from death during a storm to his prayers to St. Anna, the mother of the Virgin Mary. It was as a result of this event and an oath he made to her in his prayer of desperation that he became a Roman Catholic monk. (V. Rev. Josiah Trenham, Rock and Sand: An Orthodox Appraisal of the Protestant Reformers and Their Teachings, Columbia, MO: Newrome Press, 2015, p. 11.)
5 Denis R. Janz, ed., A Reformation Reader: Primary Texts with Introductions (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 1999), p. 125.
6 Ibid.
7 Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 370.
8 Luther abhorred Rome’s teaching that every Mass was a “re-sacrifice” of Christ. (See Admonition Concerning the Sacrament, Luther’s Works, vol. 38, Word and Sacrament, pp. 117–118).
9 An Open Letter on Translating, Martin Luther (AD 1530), http://www.bible-researcher.com/luther01.html
10 A description of the discovery and dating of an ancient fragment with this prayer is found in Frederica Mathewes-Green, The Lost Gospel of Mary (Brewster, MA: Paraclete Press, 2007), pp. 83–88.
Michael Shanbour, Know the Faith: A Handbook for Orthodox Christians and Inquirers (Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publications, 2016), 295–313.
Quite a long “subtle” theological discussion you got going here ma’am 😉
DAL
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Milkman said:
I've been watching some videos by Frederica Mathews-Green. One of the videos talked about asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us. I'm trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy better.
Of course, this made the Baptist hairs on the back of my neck stand up. However, she made a point when she said, we ask others to pray fore us, why not ask the Saints?
So, the reason for my post is to see what books I might buy to help me better understand this.
mm.
I’ll watch the full Theological discussion subtly linked in your post. I’d like to see what her definition of “Saints” is. Maybe that will illuminate things a bit. Knowing what her understanding of saints is might clear things up a bit.
DAL
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Never mind
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Never mind
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Gregory Lawhorn said:
Never mind
Thank you! Wisest words so far! From now on I’ll just watch! I give up 😂
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There are many references in the New Testament to saints.... and most of them are about Christians living today, i.e. Col 1:4, Act 9:13, etc.
I don't know of a place where Christians are told to pray to anyone in heaven except God.. Mat 6:5-15... I also know that it is good to pray for others... 2 Thes 3:1, 1 Thes 5:25.
As far as saints that have died (not in heaven yet because Jesus has not come back to the earth)... I don't know of a place that tells us to ask them for prayers.... in fact... I don't know of how they could pray for us???? As I understand it, they cannot even know about us... for example... if I made it to "Abraham's bossum" and my wife was still alive but living wrong... that would cause me sorry to know that... which illustrates to me... that the saints that have passed on does not know about what's happening on this earth... much less pray for it.
But I do believe praying for saints that are still alive on earth (i.e. Christians) is something that is taught in the New Testament and as such is something we should do.
Hope this helps.... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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It would be nice to see a resource on the origen of saint-praying. I searched my 'Fathers', and best I can see, it's a mixed bag, west/latin vs east. I just finished Paul's third-heaven book, which also aluded to communicating to angels as well. Then, you have your baptism for the dead beliefs.
There's probably a book on this whole area?
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Seems to me, if someone decides to “contribute“ by saying “this is wrong,” instead of pointing to resources (pro or con), they’ve violated the guidelines and disrespected the request of the original post.
Agree or disagree with the theology, this OP was a request for information about the topic.WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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David Wanat said:
Seems to me, if someone decides to “contribute“ by saying “this is wrong,” instead of pointing to resources (pro or con), they’ve violated the guidelines and disrespected the request of the original post.
Agree or disagree with the theology, this OP was a request for information about the topic.Seems to me that the question should’ve been worded differently and different responses could’ve been avoided (Long and short responses). The question should’ve been something along these lines: What are some resources that teach ”praying“ to saints that are already dead in heaven? And not post a link that spreads such theology (I’m sure there was no ill will intended).
I also believe that nobody has said it’s right or wrong, so you speculating or assuming that’s what others are doing is wrong also. Also the way you put it actually justifies the responses already given. You said “this OP was a request for information.” You should’ve said “resources,” because information was given 😉
DAL
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DAL said:MJ. Smith said:
Epistemological not theological, you realize just under a third of American would disagree on the basis of personal experience with communicating with the dead (Pew Research)?
You mean mysticism? And emotionalism? 😉
I have absolutely no clue how you got from research on Americans experiencing communication with the dead to either mysticism or emotionalism. No, I mean factual. many Americans do not know that a classmate's Mother speaks to birds, that their Grandmother saw her dead son before receiving news he was dead, that a Dominican novice met a saintly woman whose house smelled of roses although none were around, that a nurse always knew a patient was going to crash a minute or two before they did, that their apartment was still home to the ghost of the previous tenant and her cat, that a herd of cows can be racist. ...the list goes on and on and on. Even priests admit that they hide such experiences because of peoples' reaction when they admit to the experiences (one bishop actually hired an anthropologist for them to talk to.) You would be absolutely astounded what people will tell you when you listen and are nonjudgmental ... simply take their account as being how they experienced the event. No, I am not speaking of the supernatural -- I'm speaking of the world God created but those parts that we don't yet know how to measure and predict for scientific study. The best proofs of the existence of God come from the careful consideration of human experience - everywhere and at everytime - not scientific rationalism. And yes, it was an agnostic grandfather with great faith in science (as only those of his generation born 1870 could have) who taught me this. End of rant. Obviously such complete misreadings of what I wrote annoy me before my first cup of coffee.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DAL said:
Seems to me that the question should’ve been worded differently and different responses could’ve been avoided (Long and short responses). The question should’ve been something along these lines: What are some resources that teach ”praying“ to saints that are already dead in heaven? And not post a link that spreads such theology (I’m sure there was no ill will intended).
I also believe that nobody has said it’s right or wrong, so you speculating or assuming that’s what others are doing is wrong also. Also the way you put it actually justifies the responses already given. You said “this OP was a request for information.” You should’ve said “resources,” because information was given 😉
DAL
Nothing was wrong with the OP's wording. He specifically asked for books on the topic of asking saints to pray for us.
Milkman said:I've been watching some videos by Frederica Mathews-Green. One of the videos talked about asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us. I'm trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy better.
Milkman said:So, the reason for my post is to see what books I might buy to help me better understand this.
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DAL said:
Quite a long “subtle” theological discussion you got going here ma’am
I had initially thought to give the Catholic and Anglican references that Rosie gave but in rereading the post, I noted he specially wanted the Eastern Orthodox take not just any take. I assumed he would not have the Eastern Orthodox catechism in his collection as he would not have asked the question if he did. You may fairly question whether my judgment was good or if I should have changed my answer when I discovered the length of the quote. But I did not espouse a particular position - I answered the original question with a resource of the theological tradition requested. The same thing as I would do for any other question for any other tradition that I happened to know a good resource for. It is others who have brought in traditions other than that which the original OP asked for.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DAL said:
I’d like to see what her definition of “Saints” is.
You can easily look it up as many Eastern Orthodox websites to answer such questions are readily available - I suspect because so many Westerners have little knowledge of the Christian East and Far East.
[quote]
Categories of Saints
Through the work of the Holy Trinity all Christians could be called saints; especially in the early Church as long as they were baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity, they received the Seal of the Spirit in chrismation and frequently participated in the Eucharist. In the same spirit St. Paul, when writing to the Churches he had visited, calls all the faithful "saints." Writing to the Ephesians, he addresses "the saints who live in Ephesus" (1:1); writing to the Corinthians he uses the same expressions (2 Cor. 1:11). St. Basil, commenting on this point, writes that Paul refers to all those who are united with God, who is the Being, the Life and the Truth (Against Eunomius, II, 19). Furthermore, St. Paul writes to the Colossians that God has reconciled men by Christ's death, "so that He may present you before Himself holy, without blemish and innocent in His sight" (1:22).
In our society, however, who can be addressed as a saint? Who are those men and women and children who may be called saints by the Church today? Many Orthodox theologians classify the saints in six categories:
- The Apostles, who were the first ones to spread the message of the Incarnation of the Word of God and of salvation through Christ.
- The Prophets, because they predicted and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.
- The Martyrs, for sacrificing their lives and fearlessly confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.
- The Fathers and Hierarchs of the Church, who excelled in explaining and in defending, by word and deed, the Christian faith.
- The Monastics, who lived in the desert and dedicated themselves to spiritual exercise (askesis), reaching, as far as possible, perfection in Christ.
- The Just, those who lived in the world, leading exemplary lives as clergy or laity with their families, becoming examples for imitation in society.
Each and every one among all these saints has his or her own calling and characteristics: they all fought the "good fight for the faith" (1 Tim. 6:12 and 2 Tim. 4:7). All of them applied in their lives the scriptural virtues of "justice, piety, fidelity, love, fortitude, and gentleness" (1 Tim. 6:11).
But remember that the Eastern Orthodox is not prone to systematization so answers to questions such as yours are often a bit loosey-goosey as my Father would say.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Wanat said:
Seems to me, if someone decides to “contribute“ by saying “this is wrong,” instead of pointing to resources (pro or con),
I agree, however, I would go further. He asked specifically about the Eastern Orthodox position and nothing more. He refers to a specific convert to Antiochian Orthodox, I think, which has strong implications as to the resources that might best expand upon the views he has already heard.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well, what do you know I asked chatGPT “Can we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?” and this is the answer I got:
The question of whether we can ask saints in heaven to pray for us is a topic of theological debate within Christianity, particularly within Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
In Catholicism, the belief is that the saints in heaven, being in the presence of God, have a special closeness to Him and can intercede on behalf of those on Earth. It is believed that saints can pray for us and bring our intentions before God. Catholics often ask for the intercession of particular saints who are associated with specific needs or circumstances, such as St. Anthony for lost items or St. Jude for desperate situations. This practice is based on the belief in the "communion of saints," which refers to the spiritual unity among the members of the Church, both living and dead.
In Eastern Orthodoxy, a similar belief in the intercession of saints exists. Orthodox Christians may ask saints in heaven to pray for them and act as intermediaries between them and God.
It's important to note that different Christian denominations may have varying views on this matter. Protestant traditions generally do not encourage direct prayers to saints, as they believe in direct access to God through Jesus Christ.
Ultimately, whether or not one believes in asking saints in heaven to pray for us is a personal matter of faith and religious tradition.
ChatGPT is good 👍 so that’s my recommendation 👍😁👌
DAL
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DAL said:
Seems to me that the question should’ve been worded differently and different responses could’ve been avoided
You are suggesting that his very narrow question should be replaced a broader question, mixing theological lines. He asked specifically for resources/reading materials that would help him understand the Eastern Orthodox/Frederika Matthewes-Green position on praying with/to/in concert with saints. The reference to Matthewes-Green was essential as it told me that my normal Greek and Slavic sources needed to be used with a bit of reservations.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Milkman said:
I've been watching some videos by Frederica Mathews-Green. One of the videos talked about asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us. I'm trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy better.
Of course, this made the Baptist hairs on the back of my neck stand up. However, she made a point when she said, we ask others to pray fore us, why not ask the Saints?
So, the reason for my post is to see what books I might buy to help me better understand this.
Former Baptist, now Eastern Orthodox person here. Since others have mentioned specific Logos resources, I would also suggest the Ancient Faith Ministry 4-part series, "Prayers to the Saints" which is part of the Our Life in Christ podcast (which I would also recommend in general).
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MJ. Smith said:David Wanat said:
Seems to me, if someone decides to “contribute“ by saying “this is wrong,” instead of pointing to resources (pro or con),
I agree, however, I would go further. He asked specifically about the Eastern Orthodox position and nothing more. He refers to a specific convert to Antiochian Orthodox, I think, which has strong implications as to the resources that might best expand upon the views he has already heard.
My apologies if I gave the impression that I included you. I interpreted your lengthy post as giving a sample of the recommended resource.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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DMB said:
It would be nice to see a resource on the origen of saint-praying.
Ott, Ludwig. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. St. Louis: B. Herder Book Company, 1957. Section § 23. The Communion between the Faithful on Earth and the Saints in Heaven starts its Biblical discussion with 2 Mac 15:11-16 for Jewish practice and its historical discussion with the Martyrdom of Polycarp 17.3
Jurgens, W. A., trans. The Faith of the Early Fathers. Vol. 1–3. Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1970–1979. under the topic 122. There is a communion of saints by which the souls of the just dead, knowing us and our needs, pray for us. uses Cyril of Jerusalem's Catechetical Lectures (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 23.9) as its earliest reference.
Jones, Andrew, Robert Klesko, Louis St. Hilaire, and Jason Stellman, eds. Catholic Topical Index. Bellingham, WA: Verbum, 2013. has nice lists of references but doesn't have this precise topic ... veneration of saints, intercession, body of Christ all overlap parts of the issue.
Or in the spirit of DAL's reliance of ChatGPT:
[quote]
what are the earliest Christian records of the intercession of saints?ChatGPTThe earliest Christian records of the intercession of saints can be found in the writings of the early Church Fathers, particularly in the second and third centuries.
For example, Tertullian, a Christian writer who lived in the late second and early third centuries, wrote about the intercession of saints in his work "De Monogamia" ("On Monogamy"). In this work, he argues that the souls of the departed saints are in heaven and can intercede for the living.
Similarly, Origen, another early Christian writer who lived in the third century, wrote about the intercession of saints in his work "On Prayer." In this work, he argues that the saints, who are now in heaven, can hear the prayers of the living and intercede for them.
Other early Christian writers who wrote about the intercession of saints include Cyprian of Carthage, who lived in the third century, and Gregory of Nyssa, who lived in the fourth century.
These early Christian writings demonstrate that the intercession of saints was a part of the Christian tradition from its earliest days. However, it should be noted that the specific practices and beliefs surrounding the intercession of saints have evolved and developed over time within different branches of Christianity.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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And if you like sources Cited by ChatGPT:
(Alway bearing in mind the relevance of Scripture passages such as: Lev 19:31, Deut 18:10-13, 1 Sam 28 )
what are the earliest Christian records of the intercession of saints? cite sources
The earliest Christian records of the intercession of saints date back to the 2nd century. In his Epistle to the Romans, St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. 107) writes:
"Remember me in your prayers, and I will remember you in my prayers to the Lord, and to the martyrs, and to all the saints." (Epistle to the Romans, 10:1)
In his Treatise on Prayer, Origen of Alexandria (d. 254) writes:
"We pray to the angels, and to the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep, that they may intercede with God for us." (Treatise on Prayer, 11:2)
In his Commentary on the Book of Revelation, St. Hippolytus of Rome (d. 235) writes:
"The twenty-four elders [in Revelation 5:8] represent the whole company of saints who have fallen asleep in the Lord, and who now offer their prayers to God on behalf of those who are still living on earth." (Commentary on the Book of Revelation, 5:8)
These are just a few examples of the many early Christian writings that attest to the belief in the intercession of saints. The practice of praying to the saints for their intercession has continued throughout the history of the Church, and it is still a widespread practice today.
Sources:
- Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans
- Origen of Alexandria, Treatise on Prayer
- St. Hippolytus of Rome, Commentary on the Book of Revelation
The earliest Christian records of the intercession of saints are found in the writings of the early church fathers. For example, in his Commentary on the Book of Daniel, Origen (184-253 AD) wrote:
"But not the high priest alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels, and as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep."
Similarly, Cyprian of Carthage (200-258 AD) wrote:
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another, that God may receive our supplications through the merits and intercession of His holy ones."
These early church fathers believed that the saints in heaven were still able to pray for the living, and that their prayers were powerful and effective. This belief is still held by many Christians today.
Here are some sources that you can consult for more information on the early Christian records of the intercession of saints:
- The Early Church Fathers by Henry Bettenson
- The History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff
- The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church by F. L. Cross and E. A. Livingstone
- The New Jerome Biblical Commentary by Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer, and Roland E. Murphy
- The Didache (a first-century Christian manual of church order) includes a prayer for the dead that asks God to "grant them rest in the place of light, in the place of refreshment, in the place of peace."
- The Epistle of Barnabas (a late first-century Christian writing) states that "the souls of the righteous are in the hands of God, and no torment shall touch them."
- The Shepherd of Hermas (a second-century Christian writing) contains a vision in which Hermas sees a woman who represents the church praying for the souls of the dead.
- The Martyrdom of Polycarp (a second-century account of the death of a Christian martyr) records that Polycarp prayed for his persecutors before he was burned at the stake.
These are just a few examples of the many early Christian records that attest to the belief in the intercession of saints. This belief was widespread in the early church, and it continues to be held by many Christians today.
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Thank you, MJ and GaoLu. Both have quite a list! And good for future searchers.
'Centuries later ...' I usually avoid, but Iganatius and Tertullian ... this is really interesting. Will take some 'Lightfoot'ing' (he has the various versions).
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Tried the video on youtube and stopped at "to pray means only to ask for something."
My whole being responded in, "No, it doesn't!"
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I would suspect that theological use was not intended but rather
online etymology dictionary - Search (bing.com)">pray (v.)
early 13c., preien, "ask earnestly, beg (someone)," also (c. 1300) in a religious sense, "pray to a god or saint," from Old French preier "to pray" (c. 900, Modern French prier), from Vulgar Latin *precare (also source of Italian pregare), from Latin precari "ask earnestly, beg, entreat," from *prex (plural preces, genitive precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE root *prek- "to ask, request, entreat."From early 14c. as "to invite." The deferential parenthetical expression I pray you, "please, if you will," attested from late 14c. (from c. 1300 as I pray thee), was contracted to pray in 16c. Related: Prayed; praying.
Praying mantis attested from 1809 (praying locust is from 1752; praying insect by 1816; see mantis). The Gardener's Monthly of July 1861 lists other names for it as camel cricket, soothsayer, and rear horse.
but I have not checked the video itself out.
If the intent was as what you report, I'd chuckle that it confirmed some of my impressions of Antiochian converts.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ok.... no offense meant but..... I have read many books about the dead, but I have never read or seen one proof that an human alive on earth today has ever communicated with another human that was dead. There is absolutely no proof of such happening. There is conjecture on the part of some, there is wishful thinking on the part of some.
The bible is the ultimate truth. Anything else is just conjecture or subjective thinking on the part of man. And as I tried to show in my previous post, the bible does not talk about communication of any kind with anyone that has died other than God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which we call the Godhead...
Now .... having said that....then my question is.... How can there be any other truth?
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Yep... I see it again.... the bible sheds a lot of light on the thinking of men. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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R. Mansfield said:Milkman said:
I've been watching some videos by Frederica Mathews-Green. One of the videos talked about asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us. I'm trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy better.
Of course, this made the Baptist hairs on the back of my neck stand up. However, she made a point when she said, we ask others to pray fore us, why not ask the Saints?
So, the reason for my post is to see what books I might buy to help me better understand this.
Former Baptist, now Eastern Orthodox person here. Since others have mentioned specific Logos resources, I would also suggest the Ancient Faith Ministry 4-part series, "Prayers to the Saints" which is part of the Our Life in Christ podcast (which I would also recommend in general).
Why the change, Rick? Do you still see the rest as brothers and sisters in Christ? If so why even bother to change from Baptist to Eastern Orthodox or Catholic from the West if we’re all going to heaven anyway?
MJ can participate too. She switched from Church of Christ (Restorationist) to Catholic. I’m trying to understand why switch from one denomination to another if we’re still considering one another brothers and sisters in Christ and we’re going to heaven.
This is not a theological debate, this is a curiosity question. What made you change your mind and why the drastic change?
DAL
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xnman said:
Ok.... no offense meant but..... I have read many books about the dead, but I have never read or seen one proof that an human alive on earth today has ever communicated with another human that was dead.
xnman, you might begin with the Old Testament. Conjuring up the dead.
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DAL said:
What made you change your mind and why the drastic change?
Avoiding theological debating. But (at least my perception) is that the more fundamental (not talking conservative/traditional) the 'protestant' theology, the closer to Eastern Orthodox one becomes. That doesn't mean the normal theology checklists are similar. Rather, the person's behavior (eg reflection of Divine), as more in-sync with an early Christian one.
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DAL said:
Why the change, Rick? Do you still see the rest as brothers and sisters in Christ? If so why even bother to change from Baptist to Eastern Orthodox or Catholic from the West if we’re all going to heaven anyway?
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This is not a theological debate, this is a curiosity question. What made you change your mind and why the drastic change?
In 2020 I wrote some of my reasons for conversion here. I had intended to go more in depth in later posts, which I will probably still do at some time In the future after more reflection, prayer, and study to better communication my reasons.
Anyway, you can read that if you want and contact me directly if you want to know more specifics.0 -
Thanks for the link, Rick! I’ll follow up later 👍😁👌
DAL
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xnman said:
There is absolutely no proof of such happening.
Unfortunately, this statement is patently false and your post again is unsupported opinion which does not belong in these forums. And I assume you know of 1 Samuel 28:3-25 and Matthew 17:1-8.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DAL said:
MJ can participate too. She switched from Church of Christ (Restorationist) to Catholic.
Very simple - and I know at least 4 other people that made the same switch for very similar reasons.
- The Church of Christ is very firmly founded in the thought of Locke, a trait I value because it ingrains the desire to be ruthlessly logical and objective in your interpretation of scripture (and your motives for that interpretation).
- Unfortunately, the church history taught by some within the church does not stand up to scrutiny and exposes the modern European biases that are necessary to maintain the Church of Christ positions.
- Ruthless logic and objective interpretation then brings one to a limited number of churches that one can belong to while maintaining some of the best that one learned in the Church of Christ. Location and friendships led me to choose Catholic with an Eastern tilt over Orthodox with a Western tilt.
- Dropping the modern biases leaves one with more energy to spend on actual worship and spiritual growth in a tradition that is less concerned with salvation and more concerned with being a productive member of the family of God/body of Christ. Everyone I know who has made this switch has remained a committed Catholic. I mention this because I know several people who go back and forth multiple times between Episcopalian (or Lutheran) and Catholic.
A bit of context - the great-uncle who planted the church had parents who were Mennonite converts to what became the Church of Christ. The preacher for many years, my grandfather, had an Irish Catholic Mother and a Finnish (pietist) Lutheran wife.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
And I assume you know of 1 Samuel 28:3-25 and Matthew 17:1-8.
Good catch. I forgot about the Transfiguration, and its significance to the question.
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I could have pointed out Deuteronomy 18:10-12, Leviticus 19:31, 20:6, Isaiah 8:19-20 as well despite their being prohibitions ... you don't need to prohibit something that doesn't happen, but I expected that would simply get a blanket charge of charlatan i.e. a Western 20th century scientific mind response rather than a consideration of the beliefs and experiences of the original audience.
Or I could have broadened the canon a bit and offered Tobit 12:12-15, 2 Maccabees 15:11-16, and 1 Enoch 22-23.
Or I could mention something about cultural context: Testament of Job 40:1-6, Life of Adam and Eve 47:1-6, and Apocalypse of Zephaniah 3:1-3. But I didn't want to be snarky and say what I was actually thinking.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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