Revelation 12 Dragon Gender
Hi, this may sound like an odd post to some but I really get a feminine feel to most references to the character of Satan in scripture.
However, when researching Satan, there is one reference that stands out in all the english translations as referencing the character as male and that is the dragon of revelation 12 to specifically describes the dragon as the devil or satan and proceeds to use his and him in relation.
The reason i joined this forum is to see if someone can translate revalation 12 from original latin to see if it is absolutely necessary to apply male connotation to the dragon that archangel michael battles in revelation 12.
For example ... Is it possible to say It's tail rather than his tail?
Does the original text absolutely imply male characteristic to the dragon or is the gender been presumed by the english interpreters?
If the original language of revelation 12 doesn't absolutely indicate a male connotation for the dragon than every last reason i could ever have to believe that Satan is male is gone.
Comments
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Forget the Latin and focus on the Greek New Testament. In Verse 4 when it says his tail. That his is translated perfectly from the Greek New Testament. At the end of the verse the he pronoun is implied accurately from a single Greek word. I could probably pull all references out of Scripture to Satan and in every case just following rules of grammar he is always translated as a male figure.
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addaminsane said:
If the original language of revelation 12 doesn't absolutely indicate a male connotation for the dragon than every last reason i could ever have to believe that Satan is male is gone.
Welcome to the forums. The male gender may be used simply as grammatical gender not biological gender - one would have to find examples of both male and female to show it is biological gender. But why do you think angels/demons/devil have gender?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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addaminsane said:
Hi, this may sound like an odd post to some but I really get a feminine feel to most references to the character of Satan in scripture.
Well, in some Spanish speaking countries they have a saying that goes something along this lines: “The devil always wears a skirt!” It’s used to illustrate how men have fallen to the seductive power of women. Just ask David!
On a side note, to me Satan has always been “male” if you want to put a gender on him. I guess I could be wrong but it’s not a salvation issue in my book.
DAL
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Welcome addam
addaminsane said:The reason i joined this forum is to see if someone can translate revalation 12 from original latin to see if it is absolutely necessary to apply male connotation to the dragon that archangel michael battles in revelation 12.
For example ... Is it possible to say It's tail rather than his tail?
This specific has been dealt with in a previous post, but it is interesting to note that NABRE, CSB and NIV 2011 translate "its tail". The dragon is Male, so I think some translators will not personify the dragon even though "his tail" is grammatically correct. BTW, 'tail' is Feminine!
Otherwise, Satan is always Male, as are the adjectives 'devil' and 'evil one'.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Outside of Revelation 12, I have come to feel that when God says let US create man he is talking to Satan ... the same goes for the tower of babel when it says Let US go down and confuse their language.
Outside of Revelation 12, it seems to me that Satan is always depicted as a feminine character to God ... the most beautiful angel ... highest anointed ... making music within the body ... cursed to crawl on the belly ... krafty ... deceiving ...
It just doesn't make an ounce of sense to me to think of the most beautiful or most deceiving or most krafty as a masculine description. I have no problem with thinking of Christ being tempted by his bride in the desert.
I'm not yet convinced that the biggest lie the devil has been deceiving us with is that she is actually a he.
I haven't felt it makes sense to think of Satan as a male for over 10 years and lately I've been trying to see if i can solidify this belief by ruling out potential contradictions.
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that is exactly the kind of answer I was hoping to hear.
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addaminsane said:
Outside of Revelation 12, I have come to feel that when God says let US create man he is talking to Satan ... the same goes for the tower of babel when it says Let US go down and confuse their language.
Outside of Revelation 12, it seems to me that Satan is always depicted as a feminine character to God ... the most beautiful angel ... highest anointed ... making music within the body ... cursed to crawl on the belly ...
I havn't felt it makes sense to think of Satan as a male for over 10 years and lately I've been trying to see if i can solidify this belief by ruling out potential contradictions.
May I recommend you read “The Unseen Realm” and ”Angels and Demons” by Dr Michael S. Heiser.
Bob
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Hi bob. Im really trying to focus on the original texts that we get the character of Satan from and see if the male connotation is absolutely necessary or simply presumed from previous teachers of those who interpreted. If it is possible to think of Satan as an "it" from the translations than I would personally learn towards thinking of the character as feminine.
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addaminsane said:
I have come to feel that when God says let US create man he is talking to Satan
Wow, addaminsane ... Jesus got replaced by a woman? And then she chatted with Eve? Or was the adversary a guy? This is getting confusing.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Im interpreting it that When God says let US ... he is speaking to another individual ... A feminine individual. He procedes to make male and female in their image. This interpretation provides a place for Satan that actually makes sense as God's highest anointed. The highest anointed next to a king is the queen.
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DMB it gets confusing to try to insert the name of Jesus into the story. I'm trying to simplify the text. Adding Jesus in is complicating it. Jesus is the name of the human representation of God born through the body of Mary. You don't add to anybodies ability to understand Genesis by trying to through Jesus' name into the story.
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addaminsane said:
Im interpreting it that When God says let US ... he is speaking to another individual ... A feminine individual. He procedes to make male and female in their image. This interpretation provides a place for Satan that actually makes sense as God's highest anointed. The highest anointed next to a king is the queen.
I think you should read those who are experts in Hebrew. You are going off the deep end as your name suggests “insane”.
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WARNING!!! I believe that this thread has become theology driven and is now in violation of forum guidelines.
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addaminsane said:
The highest anointed next to a king is the queen.
That reminds me of Jeremiah's complaints about the Queen of Heaven (ignoring its ANE associations).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hi bob, that is why i created this thread. I wanted to see if the male connotation for the dragon in revelation 12 is absolutely necessary. Aside from that passage, I can't find a good reason to believe that Satan is not a feminine character.
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Hi roy. I don't understand what you feel you are accomplishing here? I'm putting my mind out there and have no reason to interact with anybody that doesn't appreciate another's willingness to put themselves out there.
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Hi DMB, thank you for that Jeremiah reference. I will be thinking about that one.
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If I were you I would heed and read Mt 22:29 in its full context, and thus be done with this kind of thinking altogether.addaminsane said:Hi, this may sound like an odd post to some but I really get a feminine feel to most references to the character of Satan in scripture.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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Hi Beloved Amodio. You're passage is an aggressive attack towards me without any relevance to the topic. At the resurrection people will not be in the beginning stage, they will be at the end stage. Nothing about Matthew 22 29 encourages me to not think of Satan as a feminine character.
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No attack intended. Just meant to underscore our Savior's view on such discussions. Satan is a spirit being and as such has no gender. This is what the scripture points out. I meant no offense.addaminsane said:You're passage is an aggressive attack towards me
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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addaminsane said:
Hi roy. I don't understand what you feel you are accomplishing here? I'm putting my mind out there and have no reason to interact with anybody that doesn't appreciate another's willingness to put themselves out there.
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Please note items 1 & 2.
The forums are not for "putting my mind out there". As noted in the guidelines there are other places for that type of speech.
I simply believe that the discussion has moved into the realm of theology. Now if you instead would ask "How would I research this topic in Logos?" that would likely fit within the guidelines. Or even "What resources do you know of that might address this topic?". Again within the guidelines.
Understand where I am coming from now?
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addaminsane said:
Hi roy. I don't understand what you feel you are accomplishing here? I'm putting my mind out there and have no reason to interact with anybody that doesn't appreciate another's willingness to put themselves out there.
Roy was simply doing what the guidelines require ... that we gently help others to stay within the guidelines. One person, not yourself, has been reported as abusive.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob said:
May I recommend you read “The Unseen Realm” and ”Angels and Demons” by Dr Michael S. Heiser.
Thats exactly what I was thinking, but after reading a bit more of the OP's ideas, I think those books are way too scholarly.
I'm not sure what resources would help here. But not understanding the different genres of literature when going into apocalyptic literature always gets people into trouble.
Does it really matter if the serpent or dragon is male or female, when it is clearly stated to be symbolism? I'm sure many would argue that a dragon is an imaginary creature.
According to the Bible, Male and Female are attributes of earthly creatures that God created. Angels are not among those types of beings, and do not reproduce "after their kind".
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You and I don't interpret the same. I believe all the script has practical value for this life. I've been aware of the doctrines handed down for several hundred years since before I was even a teenager. I didn't start this thread to get the same cookie cutter advice kids get in Sunday school.
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Beloved Amodeo, it is ridiculous for you to presume that Matthew 22 29 is Jesus condemning this type of discussion. Many of you are saying that the gender is irrelevant but I don't think it is at all. In Revelation 12 in the english translations they use "His" and "Him" pronouns when if the gender was completely irrelevant they would just use "It".
What I'm trying to figure out is if the interpretation of His is actually based on the original latin or if it has been presumed due to the correlation with the word satan or the devil as traditionally being thought of as a Him.
I don't feel the text gives reason to believe Satan is a him anywhere outside of Revelation 12. I'm repeating myself because many responding to this topic are doing so without taking the original query seriously. I already knew I would get this kind of cookie cutter feedback from many, but i am thankful that there have been a few solid answers too.
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Mr. Roy, I didn't realize this forum was about your software. I came here from google thinking it might be related to translating stuff from the bible. I'm sorry to inconvenience you're agenda. Had I known your policy, I wouldn't have been deceived by the naming of your software to believe this forum might actually be a decent place to communicate about biblical subject matter.
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John, your use of the word scholarly is obviously a passive aggressive shot at the way you perceive my ability to understand. It highlights the insecurity you seem to feel about your inability to defend your positions with any original thought that hasn't been handed down to you by someone else. I didn't start this post to get the same opinions kids get in Sunday school. I started this post in an effort to test the validity of the english translations of Revelation 12, specifically in regards to applying a male gender to the dragon that goes on to be compared to the devil.
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addaminsane said:
John, your use of the word scholarly is obviously a passive aggressive shot at the way you perceive my ability to understand. It highlights the insecurity you seem to feel about your inability to defend your positions with any original thought that hasn't been handed down to you by someone else. I didn't start this post to get the same opinions kids get in Sunday school. I started this post in an effort to test the validity of the english translations of Revelation 12, specifically in regards to applying a male gender to the dragon that goes on to be compared to the devil.
The validity of the Rev 12 translation of English pronouns relating to the dragon as male (he, his) is due to the gender of the underlying Greek pronouns which are male gender. You can easily check this in Logos software by using the reverse interlinear text of a Bible with reverse interlinear ...
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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addaminsane said:
I will be thinking about that one.
I'm not agreeing with your proposal (no offense). The problem is linguistics as above (gendered words independent of gender), but also the transition of 'serpent' to adversary, to daemon and devil, both in time, language, and location. For example Legeon, as an name/object, is a 'he'. But in Mark 5:15, the morph'ing can't decide.
In the Revelations case is the uniqueness of combining all 3 under the rubric of 'ancient serpent' (2 instances).
You can find similar discussions in Logos depending on your library. The example below is from Dictionary of the Apostolic Church (basically Paul and Rev's usage):
"Earliest of all was the ancient dragon-myth of the Babylonian Creation-epic, with its representation of the struggle of Tiāmat, the princess of chaos and darkness, against Marduk, the god of order and light. The myth appears to have belonged to the common stock of Semitic ideas, and must have become familiar to the Hebrews from their earliest settlement in Canaan, if indeed it was not part of the ancestral tradition carried with them from their original Aramæan home."
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hi Wolfgang,
Thank you for that information. The part I'm hung up on is why language used to describe the dragon is male. Is it only because John the revelator associates the dragon with "the devil" and "satan"? Why doesn't John use any creative metaphors to indicate masculinity such as a huge set of testicles dangling from this dragon? I'm not convinced yet that the pronouns are not a result of human error.
To further clarify my current mental dillemma, if the only reason the dragon is indicated to be male is because of it's tie into a preconceived notion of satan being male, then It doesn't force my mind to second guess my conviction that Satan is actually God's queen because I can't find any other biblical references that lead us to believe satan is masculine and satan appears to be in close proximation when God says "Let Us".
Every reference I can ever think of recieving indicating that satan is masculine outside of Revelation 12 has been an emasculated preacher, or a female subject of an emasculated preacher.
I'm going to need some solid logic to back up the idea that satan is either genderless or male. Michael is definitely not genderless. Genderless beings have no practical value in helping another human believe that all script is God breathed and useful.
I feel like i've exhausted my point in this thread, which has obviously been created out of place. Thanks to everyone who took time out of their day to at the very least acknowledge the presence of a strange outsider.
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addaminsane said:
The part I'm hung up on is why language used to describe the dragon is male.
You have to step back a bit further. Is the language grammatically male by convention OR is it indicating something about the gender (if any) of the dragon. Others have made themselves look silly by confusing the grammatical use of "gender" with something in the "physical world" e.g. Greek authority is feminine ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:addaminsane said:
The part I'm hung up on is why language used to describe the dragon is male.
You have to step back a bit further. Is the language grammatically male by convention OR is it indicating something about the gender (if any) of the dragon. Others have made themselves look silly by confusing the grammatical use of "gender" with something in the "physical world" e.g. Greek authority is feminine ...
Hey, the dragon in Shrek was a female and she married donkey 🫏 😂😂😂
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addaminsane said:
The part I'm hung up on is why language used to describe the dragon is male. Is it only because John the revelator associates the dragon with "the devil" and "satan"?
It is not because of John, but because in the Greek language the word "dragon" has the grammatical gender masculine. Now, the English language is rather primitive in that nouns do not have a grammatical gender as such, which might make it difficult for English speakers to understand some of these points related to this matter when translating from one language to another.
The word for "sun" in German is "Sonne", grammatically its gender feminine, and associated pronouns would be feminine (sie, ihre > she, her). The word for "moon" in German is "Mond", grammatically its gender is masculine, and associated pronouns would be masculine (er, seine > he, his). In French you have "soleil" for "sun", but its grammatical gender is masculine; whereas the word for moon is "lune" and its grammatical gender is feminine. Now, of course, neither sun or moon in German or French are neither male nor female in reality but things.
In English, since there is no grammatical gender of the words "sun" or "moon" the assigned pronoun for "sun" and "moon" would just be be "it" (neuter), because the words refer to a thing, not a male and not a female person.
When translating, the grammatical gender may be different, and the translator normally would then adjust the pronouns to correspond to the grammatical gender of the noun rather than keeping the pronouns from the source language. In the case in Rev and the dragon, the German translations follows exactly the Greek because the noun "dragon" in Greek and in German are grammatically masculine. In English however, some translators keep the male pronouns from the Greek and translate the pronouns as "he, his", whereas other translators use the term "dragon" in English and then adjust the Greek masculine pronouns to the English neuter pronoun "it, its".
In any case, the context of a passage would provide the key(s) to determine the actual meaning of words and to what they refer. One could use various Logos resources and searches to gather more information on the words used in the text (lexicons, dictionary, etc.), text comparison tool to check different Bible translations, passage guide, etc.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
Now, the English language is rather primitive in that nouns do not have a grammatical gender as such, which might make it difficult for English speakers to understand some of these points related to this matter when translating from one language to another.
Wolfgang, I read your extensive reply with great interest. As one who knows only English [and the bit of French I learned in school], I found your examples fascinating.
Thank you for taking the time to elucidate.
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scooter, I agree. Although my first language spoken in life was Spanish. I was born in Panama, but sadly left at the age of two. I had to Google this, but 39% of the U.S. population speaks Spanish. I took (not studied) French in college. Didn't learn a thing.scooter said:Wolfgang Schneider said:Now, the English language is rather primitive in that nouns do not have a grammatical gender as such, which might make it difficult for English speakers to understand some of these points related to this matter when translating from one language to another.
Wolfgang, I read your extensive reply with great interest. As one who knows only English [and the bit of French I learned in school], I found your examples fascinating.
Thank you for taking the time to elucidate.
Thanks to MJ. I had a little attitude adjustment towards questions I usually pass over. I think I've discovered why I'm a bit grumpy. Ignorance. I apologize for the arrogant way I approached my fellow Believers. I promise to work on a better way. I need to be stretched and challenged so I can shed this inferiority complex.
I hope that I can be a repairer of the breach. Forgive me addminsane and if you read this you also Christian Alexander.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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I would like to add my thanks to Wolfgang for his clear explanation and examples.
Wolfgang Schneider said:Now, the English language is rather primitive in that nouns do not have a grammatical gender as such, which might make it difficult for English speakers to understand some of these points related to this matter when translating from one language to another.
It might be helpful to note that there is a vestige of grammatical gender in English - we still tend to refer to ships as "she".
As an aside, this difference between English and many other languages shows up in some old black and white comedies from the early 20th century. Characters from other countries would be represented as bringing the grammatical gender of their native languages over into English, and saying things such as "the roast, she is burned" or "the table, he is broken."
I've been struck by the extent to which different languages work in very different ways.
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Beloved Amodeo said:
scooter, I agree. Although my first language spoken in life was Spanish. I was born in Panama, but sadly left at the age of two. I had to Google this, but 39% of the U.S. population speaks Spanish. I took (not studied) French in college. Didn't learn a thing.
My French started in Grade 7 [Canada]. Too little, too late. Dropped the project after grade 10. I can mostly pronounce people's names, which can help, showing effort and respect. I did 3 mo. of Spanish in university [what you call college] + dropped it as I had no one to practise with outside class. So, only English.
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It's a shame, but me too. I was a science nerd. I gave no effort to languages even English. I was raised in the Bronx, New York City. I just missed the era of Latin in 1st Grade for the accelerated program. We had to take up an instrument for music study. They stuck me with the violin because I had an aptitude for it. I also studied the piano. But things like that don't make you popular in the neighborhood.scooter said:So, only English.
I would cram for the exams in everything but science. I got good grades so my mother and father didn't see the bad habits I was gathering. I also loved to read and this is what saved me because I read about everything. So, when it came time to take the aptitude exams in high school I scored high. Which paved my way to Washington University in St. Louis on a partial scholarship. But, that place for pre-med ate me alive. I transferred back home to The Ohio State University. I'll spare you the rest of the story.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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Beloved Amodeo said:
It's a shame, but me too. I was a science nerd. I gave no effort to languages even English. I was raised in the Bronx, New York City. I just missed the era of Latin in 1st Grade for the accelerated program. We had to take up an instrument for music study. They stuck me with the violin because I had an aptitude for it. I also studied the piano. But things like that don't make you popular in the neighborhood.scooter said:So, only English.
I would cram for the exams in everything but science. I got good grades so my mother and father didn't see the bad habits I was gathering. I also loved to read and this is what saved me because I read about everything. So, when it came time to take the aptitude exams in high school I scored high. Which paved my way to Washington University in St. Louis on a partial scholarship. But, that place for pre-med ate me alive. I transferred back home to The Ohio State University. I'll spare you the rest of the story.
I was a reading nerd., quiet, good marks. I did science, a degree I used to have a career in that area. Retired now, I use my ability to study on God, using L's materials. This effort has an expansive feel to it; I do it 7 days a week. Great talking to you!!
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