Logos Search Remains Part of a Mystery Religion

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273371#Comment_1273371

Hoping it works, you pay and pray!

Wow. That DOES sound like a mystery religion.

I'm even amazed at my own post ... it's mysterious too! I just noticed the sort, in the events list. What could it be?? Creation, Jesus, and then there's King Og follow by King Sihon. I bet it's how it was stashed in the database.

Then, there's Jesus' resurrection ... in Mark. Just Mark? He gets crucified in all the gospels. Poor Jesus!

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273372#Comment_1273372

Wow. That DOES sound like a mystery religion.

I KISs. I Keep It Simple, scooter.

I read, hi-lite, write some notes. I keep a list of books by topic at Logos Survey of Theology; I write down the page numbers to jump into again.

For me, L is fun this way, + so I can use it 7 days a week with a smile. not a frown.

Your sort is a bit of a morass, DMB.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273373#Comment_1273373

Your sort is a bit of a morass, DMB.

You're right. I should never have clicked on the '+'. [:P]

I don't know ... mysteries.

Have you gone through the initiation rite?

Seriously, in each case what would you expect/like to see happen? I'm positive you asked that question often enough. In retirement and in forums, I've found I have to ask it of myself.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273376#Comment_1273376

In retirement and in forums, I've found I have to ask it of myself.

Well, back in my working days, one of my corporate groups was software planning. And one of my concerns, during executive trips around our 'worldwide empire' was ease of use. Good software design meant low training costs, low error rates, and efficiency, across multiple countries. The big bucks.

But in retirement, my concerns lie at the 'root' of Logos ... religion. If anything, the need for ease of use should be even greater, if indeed one accepts the long-term goals. And especially, as internet chaos (and recently pseudo-chat) intrude.

But instead, at each design point, a small 'chasm' is introduced, to dissuade new Logos users. In the specific case, I'd have done, like my browser (in light grey, indicate the expected action ... type subject or similar). Instead of dumping a random list, as if 'that's it'.

Christian Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273386#Comment_1273386

Very good discussion here. Search in Logos is something I never have liked. It is too diverse.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273390#Comment_1273390

It is too diverse.

You mean "too powerful" ... requires too much intellectual rigor. Unfortunately, people keep trying to use a search where Logos expects you to look it up in guides or factbook or Bible browser ... but Logos is trying to solve the problem ... one I'm glad I'm not trying to resolve.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273386#Comment_1273386

In retirement and in forums, I've found I have to ask it of myself.

Well, back in my working days, one of my corporate groups was software planning. And one of my concerns, during executive trips around our 'worldwide empire' was ease of use. Good software design meant low training costs, low error rates, and efficiency, across multiple countries. The big bucks.

But in retirement, my concerns lie at the 'root' of Logos ... religion. If anything, the need for ease of use should be even greater, if indeed one accepts the long-term goals. And especially, as internet chaos (and recently pseudo-chat) intrude.

But instead, at each design point, a small 'chasm' is introduced, to dissuade new Logos users. In the specific case, I'd have done, like my browser (in light grey, indicate the expected action ... type subject or similar). Instead of dumping a random list, as if 'that's it'.

Well said. Amen!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273372#Comment_1273372

I'm even amazed at my own post ... it's mysterious too! I just noticed the sort, in the events list. What could it be?? Creation, Jesus, and then there's King Og follow by King Sihon. I bet it's how it was stashed in the database.

Then, there's Jesus' resurrection ... in Mark. Just Mark? He gets crucified in all the gospels. Poor Jesus!

I'd need some screenshots to provide answers to "sort". And Jesus' resurrection is not restricted to Mark (screenshot please).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273432#Comment_1273432

I'd need some screenshots to provide answers to "sort". And Jesus' resurrection is not restricted to Mark (screenshot please).

The sorting of search results has already been discussed ad finitum.

The point about the crucifiction (all gospels) vs resurrection (Mark only) was in the initial screen shot. As regards what a non-Logos-expert would see.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273490#Comment_1273490

The point about the crucifiction (all gospels) vs resurrection (Mark only) was in the initial screen shot. As regards what a non-Logos-expert would see.

It's unfortunate that that event has a totally misleading label as the Search is very different.

EDIT: Apparently, at the first level, you're supposed to already know what you want (to narrow the list). Then, a scroll bar can appear as needed. Jeremiah didn't get one (I guess); Isaiah did.

I do wish you'd make the trip to Dharamsala for an initiation rite (perhaps Mecca or Jerusalem would also work ...) ... I mean mysteries must remain mysteries ...

Google works on the basis of you want to see now what you have seen in the past ... this is a very good guessimate for checking the whether, mapping a route from your home, checking your prayers at Universalist ... For research, Logos has a slightly different problem ... it can guess either that you are continuing on the same issue OR that you have shifted to a different issue. Either way will be wrong and annoying some of the time; more so for some users than others. Logos has made some choices which are not the best but they are understandable; what I am interested in is what behavior do you think would be better?

I can duplicate your results with the exception that I get a scroll bar.

Because my results match yours, I assume that the choice of entries is not based on my personal use but on aggregate use. In general, I find Logos aggregate use irrelevant to me. Therefore, I treat it as if there were no events offered until I enter enough of a hint to Logos so that it doesn't have to read my mind but can use a selection algorithm to offer a reasonable list. On short, I expect Logos to expect that at the first level I have a clear enough idea of what I want that I can provide a sufficient hint. Sometimes my terminology differs enough from Logos that I have to try multiple times. The only concrete suggestion I have is for Logos to build a table of equivalent terms across history and theological streams so that anyone can use their "native" vocabulary. What's your suggestion (assuming you're still avoiding Dharamsala.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273499#Comment_1273499

I do wish you'd make the trip to Dharamsala for an initiation rite

Gee, what's wrong with the big B? (Bellingham HQ). And Halloween is approaching too! The Big M (Mesa I think) doesn't support mysteries.

I can duplicate your results with the exception that I get a scroll bar.

Part of your 'star' extras. Enjoy!

On short, I expect Logos to expect that at the first level I have a clear enough idea of what I want that I can provide a sufficient hint.

Again, they know you're smart. But to give them credit (and maybe I'm unfortunately wrong), but recently I've noticed here and there, instructions at key 'intersections'. Excellent. Sort of like Microsoft about 20 years ago. I see the principle like roundabouts ... put the little circle and choices early ... don't just have visitors drive up to the circle and stop.

What's your suggestion

As above, put the next step in light, barely readable grey, as to the next expected action. Works on my browser (since I use several, all different). I do think Mark seems to be having an impact ... I just believe the critical 'junction' occurs long before beta. Internal management has to ride herd on exuberant artists.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273513#Comment_1273513

As above, put the next step in light, barely readable grey, as to the next expected action.

What I am missing is any idea what the next step would be -- any recognizable event title which is what the pick list does. I know I'm missing something in understanding you, but I can't figure out what. As for Dharamsala ... it's a matter of mindset that is rare elsewhere in mysteries ...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273517#Comment_1273517

As for Dharamsala ... it's a matter of mindse

And you don't see the mindset at the Big B? Smiling. Actually serious (I think that's their problem going way back). Sort of an easter-egg app.

any recognizable event title which is what the pick list does.

Best I can see, it's not meant to be a picklist (before the user begins typing a choice), although, of course, you can pick from it! If you were going to be compatible with Logos' other UI presentations, you'd place the examples below (and describe as example), instead of a fake picklist.

But I'm probably still confusing you? As is, the user appears to be asked to select from the dumped list (maybe 20 items). Some UIs throw a mouseable alphabet before the user to indicate next step, but Logos doesn't use that method. As above, the user is given an easter egg challenge.

josef romeo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273513#Comment_1273513

"I appreciate the suggestion for a trip to Dharamsala or other significant places like Mecca or Jerusalem for an initiation rite. Mysteries do hold a certain allure, and diverse cultural experiences can indeed be enriching.Your insights into Google's working mechanism, particularly its focus on what one has seen in the past, make for an interesting observation. Mapping routes and checking prayers at Universalist are practical examples of this approach. When it comes to Logos and its challenge in predicting whether a user is continuing on the same issue or shifting to a different one, it's a nuanced dilemma. The choices Logos has made might not be perfect, but they are understandable.In the realm of religion, such digital platforms grapple with anticipating user interests and understanding shifts in context. It's akin to the challenge of deciphering the mysteries of human intention and preferences. Speaking of which, consider this Ayat Kursi in Latin

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273386#Comment_1273386

In retirement and in forums, I've found I have to ask it of myself.

Well, back in my working days, one of my corporate groups was software planning. And one of my concerns, during executive trips around our 'worldwide empire' was ease of use. Good software design meant low training costs, low error rates, and efficiency, across multiple countries. The big bucks.

But in retirement, my concerns lie at the 'root' of Logos ... religion. If anything, the need for ease of use should be even greater, if indeed one accepts the long-term goals. And especially, as internet chaos (and recently pseudo-chat) intrude.

But instead, at each design point, a small 'chasm' is introduced, to dissuade new Logos users. In the specific case, I'd have done, like my browser (in light grey, indicate the expected action ... type subject or similar). Instead of dumping a random list, as if 'that's it'.

I have been a complainer of Logos Search since I came to Logos from WordSearch. I'll put a bug in your ear.... some people on the forums can't think past the end of their nose as to what a good search program can or should do. They will argue with you till Jesus comes back about "your need to learn the search" but not about how Search could or should change.

I do believe that Logos Search was improved with Logos 10. I actually use it now as best I can. But it still needs mucho work. I also believe that Mark Barnes is involved to put forth a better Search... which I also believe is forthcoming, when, I don't know.

My opinion is this: The people that wrote the Search as it is, were people that read "hieroglyphics" and used those "hieroglyphics" to find things in Search, which they could do and then ... they taught a few others to use the "hieroglyphics" and these last ones are the ones arguing against any "new Search". (My opinion only mind you). I also believe that if enough of us Logos users band together and raise our protests about it, people like Mark Barnes will listen and changes will come, which may be happening already. See, my problem is I never learned the "hieroglyphics". lol

I have faith that Mark Barnes has seen the light. I have repeatedly ask the question... What good is having a million books and information in Logos if I cannot find the information I need? Isn't that what Search is supposed to do without having to study Search each time you use it? If Google worked that way...believe me, most people wouldn't ask Google anything as it would just be to hard to find information.

And in my opinion.... Factbook is a joke. It's just a function to try to make up for some of the inadequaties (sp?) of Search but it fails miserably. This is my opinion and mine alone. [8-|]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1285626#Comment_1285626

And in my opinion.... Factbook is a joke. It's just a function to try to make up for some of the inadequaties (sp?) of Search but it fails miserably. This is my opinion and mine alone.

I agree[:)]

I have faith that Mark Barnes has seen the light. I have repeatedly ask the question...

An AI Search is being tested. Go to the Desktop Beta forum for details of how to join.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1285628#Comment_1285628

And in my opinion.... Factbook is a joke. It's just a function to try to make up for some of the inadequaties (sp?) of Search but it fails miserably. This is my opinion and mine alone.

I agree

I have faith that Mark Barnes has seen the light. I have repeatedly ask the question...

An AI Search is being tested. Go to the Desktop Beta forum for details of how to join.

Thanks Dave. Will do.

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273386#Comment_1273386

And one of my concerns ... was ease of use.

In my working days, I made requirement specifications for software. Sometimes I thought, I just write: "This software must be easy to use and work without fail."

When we humans solve a problem it creates a new problem. That seems to be quite obvious in the software development.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1285685#Comment_1285685

When we humans solve a problem it creates a new problem. That seems to be quite obvious in the software development.

True .. who can think out all the permutations, in the detail code plan. But it's even more expensive to re-open the code due to poor planning ... more chances for errors, and permutations. Personnel turnover, etc.

This week I was on a Bible search, and a simple textual look-for ... the forms button had no impact and forms mattered ... I switched back to my own software. 15 years of the Logos app should be long enough to get it right.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1285701#Comment_1285701

This week I was on a Bible search, and a simple textual look-for ... the forms button had no impact and forms mattered ... I switched back to my own software.

I wish you would post such problems as potential bugs so we could see the why of your experience.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1285721#Comment_1285721

I wish you would post such problems as potential bugs so we could see the why of your experience.

Well, first, I do appreciate your work, and drive to enhance the software. You, Dave and Graham probably need to get free software updates! Ok, maybe resource credits.

But seriously, the software has bugs, and the assumption 'users' (customers) need to stop their work, document, explore, check, copy, and prep for a forum go-thru-the wringer isn't a good business plan. Personally, I can't remember which are actual bugs, which are working ('a case'), and which are either who cares, or 'that's the design' (I'm glad I'm not staff with that answer).

In the above example, their design doesn't have a visual indicator of on/off during on/off. So, you click it, move the mouse, and see if the barely-grey changed or not, then click it again. Then try the search one way, and then try the search after another click. Then try several times. It's poor design, and after trying it several different ways, I move on.

In 'my' Logos (which is user-specific) the bugs currently center in Text Comparison, Multiple Book Display, and TOCs. Almost daily. It's like in your kitchen, where they're at currently (not ours, of course).

Done ranting .... smiling.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1285628#Comment_1285628

Somehow, we have got to pitch this thing right. Fixing Search isn't going to make more profit. Selling gimmicks and gadgets will. But what if I am wrong?

I was hoping AI Search would be the shiny gimmick that would make better search seem profitable to the profit-people at Logos. Maybe it will. But I suspect it's become a frantic diner-dash to keep from being left in the dust rather than a heartfelt effort to simplify search and produce better results.

For the umpteenth time, I propose a dual interface--like the home page could have ben (if it hadn't turned into advertising) or like Layouts could be if someone would build a really good one, or like Workflows would be if they didn't take such convolution to process.

Make a simple speedy easy search interface that works really well. When people want the complex one, let them go find it. The super complex one will get some use, but the simple one will get 99.9%.

Then the throngs will all come clamoring to BUY Logos. Amen? Millions will/may pour into the coffers!

(I Hope the profit-people are listening)