Logos Just Isn't Designed for People Who LIke to Buy Books

That's an hypothesis. Though, over the years, my observation has been that the design slowly breaks down, the more you buy. I'd say Logos runs best with maybe a 'Bronze' type library.

Today, I was trying to track down Papias' commentary, which of course is basically Eusebius. So, I figured, search Eusebius NEAR Papias to get some references. And it did.

Out popped the Lexham Bible Dictionary with mucho. I selected one to get the reference (Ecclesiastical History), and every single one was in greek ... the resource comes in multiple languages.

So, what to do. Add an english version to my bloated library prioritization? Forget it. The prioritization is bad enough already: https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/prioritize-library-feature-update

But this is just one example. When I loaded the greek Eusebius, I did a 'parallel' to get the english. But the search was still insisting it had to be greek!! Why the choice??

Kind of doubt they'll fix any of this. The above feedback went on and on.

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Graham Criddle

So, I figured, search Eusebius NEAR Papias to get some references. And it did.

Out popped the Lexham Bible Dictionary with mucho. I selected one to get the reference (Ecclesiastical History), and every single one was in greek ... the resource comes in multiple languages.

I think you were doing something like this (I've constrained the search to LBD for clarity) - are you saying that the popup you got was in Greek?

And I note your comment about prioritisation but do you have the Greek version prioritised higher than the English?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273473#Comment_1273473

Yes ... the LBD link you show pops up the greek version, not the english (the latter for you). And no, I don't have the greek prioritized.

I can't imagine having to prioritize every resource that is offered in multiple languages ... which is a FL policy and benefit (to compare). I would have either provided a language priority option (in the library priority setup), or absent that, matched to the UI language.

Now, in the specific case, I wanted the greek (exact greek name of Papias' commentary), but first to make sure I'd found the one being referenced (authors translated Papias' commentary differently).

I notice in the Feedbear above, folks also want to prioritize by type, which I'd assume is similar, where multiple types in a set.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273478#Comment_1273478

I would have either provided a language priority option (in the library priority setup), or absent that, matched to the UI language.

[Y] That would be very helpful, and would make the system respond in a more predictable way.

Rosie Perera

the design slowly breaks down, the more you buy. I'd say Logos runs best with maybe a 'Bronze' type library.

Yup, I experience Logos as often too slow for me to use much. I chalk it up to having a humongous Library (nearly 30,000 books) plus tens of thousands more of hidden resources (mostly from those freebie huge collections). The number of hidden resources I have makes opening the Program Settings panel take about 12-15 seconds. It used to be more like 30 sec, so at least that performance has improved some. But opening any tab should take 1-2 seconds IMO. You don't need to fill in the listbox of all the hidden resources right away, since it isn't even visible when the panel is first open. And only if I scroll down and click to expand it do you need to show any of it, during which time I could have been sitting idle for several cumulative seconds during which the rest of the work of filling the listbox could have been accomplished. I'm convinced that the Logos architecture doesn't take advantage of idle processing nearly enough.

Anyway, that's just one area of complaint about the slowness. There are so many other things including one that has been bugging me since the early days of Logos. It flashes and repaints all over the place when you're first starting up the app. I tried to explain to the developers back then that a standard practice in developing Windows apps is to create the main window invisible and do the computing needed to create all the sub-panels and such, and only then once that is all done in memory (which is much faster than doing it on the screen) you set the visibility of the main window to VISIBLE. Then it all appears at once in an instant. Much cleaner and faster. Yes, the user does have to wait a few seconds for all the computing to be done before they see anything, but that is far superior (IMO) to seeing all the glitchy flashing and resizing of windows, repainting over and over, and grabbing the focus back from whatever other app you might be using to occupy your time while you wait for Logos to boot. Ugh!

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273503#Comment_1273503

There are so many other things including one that has been bugging me since the early days of Logos. It flashes and repaints all over the place when you're first starting up the app. I tried to explain to the developers back then that a standard practice in developing Windows apps is to create the main window invisible and do the computing needed to create all the sub-panels and such, and only then once that is all done in memory (which is much faster than doing it on the screen) you set the visibility of the main window to VISIBLE. Then it all appears at once in an instant.

You just need a faster computer with a higher performance video card [:D]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273503#Comment_1273503

Yup, I experience Logos as often too slow for me to use much. I chalk it up to having a humongous Library (nearly 30,000 books) plus tens of thousands more of hidden resources (mostly from those freebie huge collections)

My last 3 computers have been gaming computers and I rarely experience the slowness that others complain about. I did have slowness before I went SSD. I am convinced that Logos is not inherently slow but rather is slowed by virus protection, drivers, hardware... my working library is larger than yours but that is because I tend to leave things in the cloud rather than hiding them. I would like Logos to spend some real effort on various users machines to see what the common elements are on the people suffering from a slow response. I agree that slowness can render a system unusable.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273524#Comment_1273524

There are so many other things including one that has been bugging me since the early days of Logos. It flashes and repaints all over the place when you're first starting up the app. I tried to explain to the developers back then that a standard practice in developing Windows apps is to create the main window invisible and do the computing needed to create all the sub-panels and such, and only then once that is all done in memory (which is much faster than doing it on the screen) you set the visibility of the main window to VISIBLE. Then it all appears at once in an instant.

You just need a faster computer with a higher performance video card

That isn't the point. Even if this flashes by really quickly, it's ugly and it's sloppy. App developers shouldn't be lazy just because they think all their users are going to have high performance machines. That's not how I was taught to write Windows apps. You create the main window invisible, then create all the child windows with WS_VISIBLE, then when you ShowWindow on the main window, they all suddenly come into appearance all nice and clean and finished.

Unlike this. No matter how fast you speed it up, it's still sloppy. It only takes 12-13 seconds on my machine, which is not unreasonable, so it's not about the speed, it's the ugly drawing of something that's incomplete before it's ready to be drawn.

4477.Booting Logos.mp4

This is the main problem, this frame (which is up for about 3 seconds on my machine, but even if it was just 1/4 of a second, it's ugly and wrong!]

But it's also about everything being drawn before it's ready.

I reported this problem long ago (Logos 4), and nothing was ever done about it: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/7608.aspx

Anyway, sorry for hijacking this thread.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273478#Comment_1273478

Yes ... the LBD link you show pops up the greek version, not the english (the latter for you). And no, I don't have the greek prioritized.

I'm intrigued!

Can you post a screenshot please?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273532#Comment_1273532

Here's like yours; greek popup. [Actually on my browser, you copy disappeared, so I can't make sure same resource]. Below that, I screen copied the lower section of my priorities (the upper is lexicons and Bibles). You'll notice I've already had to prioritize my Josephus, Jubilees, and Enoch. I suppose I'd have to do that for all the language pairs.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273531#Comment_1273531

Anyway, sorry for hijacking this thread.

I think we're sitting around a coffee table discussing (Bob's imagery). So, everything is interesting.

But your issue surprised me. That's pretty bad for modern times. And you're right ... early on, I learn to hide/build and then display.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273548#Comment_1273548

You'll notice I've already had to prioritize my Josephus, Jubilees, and Enoch. I suppose I'd have to do that for all the language pairs.

It is a prioritisation issue - and when I prioritised the Ecclesiastical History Greek text I get the same popup as you do.

This book is in the series :The Loeb Classical Library: Greek - is there any chance you have prioritised any books in that series and - with the whole series prioritised - you are getting the results you see?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273550#Comment_1273550

is there any chance you have prioritised any books in that series and - with the whole series prioritised - you are getting the results you see?

No ... my book groups are at the bottom in the screenshot (commentaries). I've never been a Loeb person ... I overwrite the series field routinely for ratings and notes on my books (bad girl).

Regarding that series, I have only one participant ... Eusebius/greek. The only other (unrelated) clue is I hid all the Perseus english; I keep only the greek/latin for grammatical comparisons. But I doubt Logos would know that preference.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273552#Comment_1273552

Regarding that series, I have only one participant ... Eusebius/greek. The only other (unrelated) clue is I hid all the Perseus english; I keep only the greek/latin for grammatical comparisons.

Strange

I noticed that the Ecclesiastical History was in the series Fathers of the Church which I had prioritised. So I removed that to see if default prioritisation changed anything - but I still get the English popup

Do you have the Ecclesiastical History visible in your Library and downloaded?

If so, just to verify what I am suggesting, could you temporariliy prioritise it somewhere "high up" and check you see that in the popup?

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273531#Comment_1273531

That's not how I was taught to write Windows apps

Technically, Logos is not a "Windows app". It is a .NET program which has a layer of abstraction and does not compile directly to processor code or the Windows API. The advantage is that .NET is now cross-platform, which allows it to run on a MAC with (I assume) little modification.

I used to program in C++ for Windows (not professionally) using MFC. Before that I programmed in C and assembly language. These "native code" languages are how you achieve maximum performance. Microsoft heavily promoted .NET (but has never written its own commercial software with it). I'm sure you already know all this.

When Logos 4 came out I refused to use it because its performance was so bad compared to Libronix. But now the hardware performance has advanced to the point where it is very usable. And I see the advantage of cross platform code now. Its really great that the program is almost identical on the Mac as it is on Windows. (my two cents worth [:)] )

P.S. - I do not see the screen issues that you have on any of my systems. I even have Windows 10 running in a VMware virtual machine on my old Windows 7 box, and the performance is acceptable.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273557#Comment_1273557

Do you have the Ecclesiastical History visible in your Library and downloaded?

Yes; visible in my library and downloaded. Then names are the same for both sets (Ecclesiastical History; this answer is for the FOC one).

could you temporariliy prioritise it somewhere "high up" and check you see that in the popup?

I assume 'it' is the FOC volume for Eusebius. I dragged it from its library row, over to top-priority. And indeed, it's now in the popup (and english), as expected. Of course (I guess) the default is to prioritize the whole FOC series (not wanted).

Not important, but now that the 'damage' has been done (FOC series prioritized), I'm not sure how to get only the FOC/Eusebius volumes (2) ... I guess I'd have to prioritize both (since a reference might be in either one).

But in any event, absent a prioritization, greek is my Eusebius popup (using a LBD reference).

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273565#Comment_1273565

Not important, but now that the 'damage' has been done (FOC series prioritized), I'm not sure how to get only the FOC/Eusebius volumes (2) ... I guess I'd have to prioritize both (since a reference might be in either one).

Yes - and to prioritise just one book out of a series use Ctrl-drag when dragging a book in the series to the prioritisation pane

But in any event, absent a prioritization, greek is my Eusebius popup (using a LBD reference).

Which is the thing I'm afraid I can't explain as I see the English popup instead!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273563#Comment_1273563

Its really great that the program is almost identical on the Mac as it is on Windows.

Maybe so. But actual behavior is periodically unexpectedly different. Yesterday, an opened resource as a window>tab, couldn't be dragged to another window to insert as a tab. Absolutely wouldn't. I did locate the reason (Mac specific).

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273566#Comment_1273566

Which is the thing I'm afraid I can't explain as I see the English popup instead!

Well, I appreciate your followup. As I understand it, Logos has an underlying default prioritization, which only extends so far. After that, I'd guess it's first matching entry in the db-table.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273568#Comment_1273568

As I understand it, Logos has an underlying default prioritization, which only extends so far. After that, I'd guess it's first matching entry in the db-table.

Absolutely - but with neither of us having any relevant prioritisation we are seeing different results. That's the thing I don't undersand!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273563#Comment_1273563

Technically, Logos is not a "Windows app". It is a .NET program which has a layer of abstraction and does not compile directly to processor code or the Windows API. The advantage is that .NET is now cross-platform, which allows it to run on a MAC with (I assume) little modification.

I used to program in C++ for Windows (not professionally) using MFC. Before that I programmed in C and assembly language. These "native code" languages are how you achieve maximum performance. Microsoft heavily promoted .NET (but has never written its own commercial software with it). I'm sure you already know all this.

I didn't know all of this. I knew that .NET came after I left software development at Microsoft in the mid 90s, so I never learned to use it. In fact we were only just beginning to use C++ when I left so I didn't use it much. I programmed almost exclusively in C, though did some debugging in Assembly. And I didn't know MS had never written its own commercial software with .NET. That's not a very "eat your own dogfood" way to go -- a phrase Microsofties like to quote internally a lot, which was coined by a MS exec at some point years ago.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273566#Comment_1273566

and to prioritise just one book out of a series use Ctrl-drag when dragging a book in the series to the prioritisation pane

Well, I'm not doubting your instructions. It just didn't work. Here's the situation:

1. I'm on a Mac, so I assume the equiv is CMD-Drag. I did that, from the library (a single volume, to the prioritization panel).

2. The situation, is I have BDAG prioritized in the middle of my greek lexicons. I wanted Chamberlains lexicon to follow Lust's (both specific to the LXX) and to follow BDAG. Chamberlain tries to center on the LXX, where BDAG was catch-as-catch-can (similarly LSJ).

3. Unfortunately, BDAG is in Logos series with Chamberlain; apparently if BDAG's already there (in my case), a CMD-drag creates ANOTHER BDAG series entry below Lust. So, there's 2 BDAGs. Not just Chamberlain by itself.

My solution, was to pull Chamberlain out of the BDAG series (rename). I don't think the CMD-drag works quite right?

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273619#Comment_1273619

"eat your own dogfood"

Thanks for sharing that mantra! That's one I'm going to find useful...

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273684#Comment_1273684

1. I'm on a Mac, so I assume the equiv is CMD-Drag. I did that, from the library (a single volume, to the prioritization panel).

Actually its still Ctrl-Drag on Mac.

But because the Ctrl-key acts like a right-click on Windows (opening a dropdown menu) you need to start dragging the resource and - part way through - press and hold down the Ctrl key!

It does work - but I'm not going to suggest it is consistent in terms of overall UI!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1273712#Comment_1273712

Well, thank you, Graham for all the patience ... it took about 5 min of opening a resource, then closing it, repeatedly, before the magic prioritization line. I've done Cmd-drags since ownership ... don't know what the deal is with Cntl-drag. Well, back to happy.