FL: Please stop selling witchcraft books written by witches
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John said:
that certain books, like religious objects, jewelry etc can attract demons into your house.
The idea that human actions can compel the spirit world to any action is the basic definition of magic. If your quote is accurate, then the author of the quote accepts magic as a fact. As I don't accept that premise, I also assume that I would disagree on a most basic level with nearly everything he said that ties to that assumption.
John said:there are not a lot written by Christians that go very deep into the experience.
Did you check out the Orthodox tradition on the topic? They deal with it the best of the spiritual formation traditions with which I am familar.
John said:I was confident that I could take his religious connections with a grain of salt, and still gain some knowledge on the topic.
This is why most spiritual formation traditions suggest that you must have a companion or guide -- not strike off on your own.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
"Gods and Robots" from Princeton Press. What does anyone think? Christian bookstore? I just bought it from the Big A, so the question is not academic.
I have it - good book.
I also have "Understanding Wood Finishing" and have gotten much more use out of it than I have from "Gods and Robots."
If you want to argue that any book a current customer happens to buy from another retailer ought to be available from Logos, knock yourself out. But if your real issue is that a website that's "About" page prominently says "We exist to empower believers everywhere to go deeper in the Bible through a fusion of Bible study resources and powerful technology." is insufficiently pure to be described as "Christian", that's another issue. If you want to go further and argue that no real-world retailer can be sufficiently pure to truly qualify as "Christian" then I think we're back in No True Scotsman land. And that's a discussion I have no interest in engaging in, because it's simply not helpful.
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Places I'd look which I'm sure discuss fasting but don't remember in how much detail
- St. Athanasius of Alexandria in "On the Incarnation"
- St. Basil the Great in "The Longer Rules"
- St. John Chrysostom in his "Homilies on Fasting"
- St. Gregory of Nyssa in "On Fasting and Feasts"
- St. John Cassian in "Institutes" and "Conferences"
- St. Gregory Palamas here and there throughout his works
- St. Clement of Alexandria in "The Stromata"
- St. Gregory Nazianzen here and there throughout his sermons
- St. Ephrem the Syrian here and there throughout his works
- St. John Climacus in "The Ladder of Divine Ascent"
- St. Maximus the Confessor in "The Ascetic Life"
- St. Symeon the New Theologian in "The Discourse"
- The Philokalia - here and there often as excerpts from the above.
There should be some Stylite stuff as well but I'm drawing a blank. It would also be worth checking out perennial philosophy's take on the topic. Think Aldous Huxley, Frithjof Schuon, and Evelyn Underhill.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
This is why most spiritual formation traditions suggest that you must have a companion or guide -- not strike off on your own.
That is interesting. If you can recommend sources I would like to see them. I am aware that the practice of fasting meant a lot more to early Christians than it does today. The Essene's practiced a 40 day fast annually. Scholars categorize John the Baptist as an Essene, and some even place Jesus in this tradition. The Bible only documents one 40 day fast by Jesus, but the fact that he continued to fast regularly is clear in the gospels.
Lent is still practiced today. But at least where I live, it means practically nothing. The fast food restaurants offer fish sandwiches instead of hamburgers. The grocery stores order less beef and a lot more fish. But I do not see any local churches recommending a 40 day water fast, as the early church did. The Bible defines "fasting" as not eating. Period. Not just refraining from meat. And even if the "refraining from meat" tradition were valid, I would argue that fish is still meat . (btw, Daniel did not define vegetarianism as a fast, contrary to popular teachings)
Many of the independent "non-denominational" churches do not even practice Lent. Jentezen Franklin for example, leads his entire church to fast 21 days every January. (so much for Lent and the traditional calendar). But his books are good reading as introductory material. I have read several of them.
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MJ. Smith said:
Places I'd look which I'm sure discuss fasting but don't remember in how much detail
- St. Athanasius of Alexandria in "On the Incarnation"
- St. Basil the Great in "The Longer Rules"
- St. John Chrysostom in his "Homilies on Fasting"
- St. Gregory of Nyssa in "On Fasting and Feasts"
- St. John Cassian in "Institutes" and "Conferences"
- St. Gregory Palamas here and there throughout his works
- St. Clement of Alexandria in "The Stromata"
- St. Gregory Nazianzen here and there throughout his sermons
- St. Ephrem the Syrian here and there throughout his works
- St. John Climacus in "The Ladder of Divine Ascent"
- St. Maximus the Confessor in "The Ascetic Life"
- St. Symeon the New Theologian in "The Discourse"
- The Philokalia - here and there often as excerpts from the above.
There should be some Stylite stuff as well but I'm drawing a blank. It would also be worth checking out perennial philosophy's take on the topic. Think Aldous Huxley, Frithjof Schuon, and Evelyn Underhill.
Thank you, i will have a look at those [:)]
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John said:MJ. Smith said:
This is why most spiritual formation traditions suggest that you must have a companion or guide -- not strike off on your own.
That is interesting. If you can recommend sources I would like to see them.
This is so common that I really don't remember any particular source but a search gives me many hits.
[quote]
(4) On account of this, a person should eagerly make every effort to live with those who possess spiritual knowledge, or at least to constantly meet with them, so that, even if he himself does not possess the lamp of true knowledge because he is still childish and spiritually immature, by walking with someone who does possess one, he does not walk in darkness, and is not in danger from snares and traps, and does not fall into the hands of spiritual beasts that dwell in the darkness and seize and destroy those who are walking in it without the spiritual lamp of God’s word.[quote]
Of those who have used with special diligence the material aids very few have attained success, but very many have deranged and harmed themselves. With an experienced director the use of the material aids incurs little danger; but with the guidance of books it is very dangerous since it is so easy, through ignorance and imprudence, to fall into delusion and other kinds of spiritual and bodily disorder. Thus some, on seeing the harmful consequences of indiscreet labor and having only a superficial and confused idea of the prayer of Jesus and the circumstances that accompany it, attributed these consequences not to ignorance and imprudence but to the most holy prayer of Jesus itself. Can anything be sadder and more disastrous than this blasphemy, this delusion?[quote]
51. Anyone Progressing in Spiritual Exercises Will Find It Useful and Even Necessary to Have a Spiritual Man as a Guide Because there are many paths on this ascent and the way leading to life is not easily recognized, do not climb without a guide; do not even set out without a guide who knows both the way and the treachery of the adversaries. God often teaches men through other men and thus admonishes them in the correct ascent and the true path. Woe to those who confide in themselves and set out without a guide, for they will easily fall into the traps of the hunters and when they fall in will have no one to lift them out. Therefore, also for the sake of humbling us, he wants us to follow guides. Thus he led the whole people of Israel to the promised land through the guide Moses; the people did everything by his counsel and acquiesced in his admonitions. Thus Lot was compelled to leave Sodom and ascend the mount, not through himself but by an angelic guide. Thus Christ did not instruct Cornelius himself but sent Peter to that end. So also he sent Ananias to Paul. And this is what a certain devout eunuch said, reading Isaiah in his chariot: “How will I be able to understand unless someone teaches me?” And you can find many similar things in Scripture. When you order your heart toward the ascent into heaven, therefore, choose a guide, a spiritual man, through whose admonition, erudition, and examination you may carry out and perfect all your exercises. This is the safest teaching, a view approved long ago by the holy Fathers.Sorry about the lack of citation data. Using beta.app.logos.com and the search argument "danger without spiritual guide" (without quotes) you'll find what you have in your library.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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EastTN said:
If you want to argue that any book a current customer happens to buy from another retailer ought to be available from Logos, knock yourself out.
Lucky you have it! Actually, I didn't recommend it for Logos ... likely few takers (sales/profit motive). I did, however, choose the example to illustrate 'research', vs 'spirituality'. Concerning the former, Logos has little on the area of robotic companionship ... seniors, etc, vs what normally would provide that value ... church, visiting members, etc. We shall see.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
51. Anyone Progressing in Spiritual Exercises Will Find It Useful and Even Necessary to Have a Spiritual Man as a Guide Because there are many paths on this ascent and the way leading to life is not easily recognized, do not climb without a guide; do not even set out without a guide who knows both the way and the treachery of the adversaries.
Interesting how much you can find in Logos if you know how to search [:D] Thanks for the example.
Spiritual exercises and guides brings to my mind early monasteries and asceticism. In principle it is great advice, but I know of no local monasteries or churches in my area where this is practiced, much less taught. Most of the churches serve coffee and donuts before and after services. Teachings on self-denial are not popular.
When I was younger, I attended a church where people were fasting regularly. People would go 2 or 3 days with only water. I tried to do it too, but usually ended up at the McDonald's drive-thru on the first day [:D]
Nobody there was able to "teach" me how to do it. They simply relied on super-human willpower that I did not posses. If they had books at all, they were devotional in nature, or else promising amazing results with little or no effort. All were useless from a practical standpoint.
Today I could write a book on the topic that would really help other people learn how to do it. It is never easy, but I know a lot of tricks now that make it easier ...
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John said:
In principle it is great advice, but I know of no local monasteries or churches in my area where this is practiced, much less taught.
I don't know where you live, but in my area there is an "underground" network of people and resources that if you find just one connection, you will be able to network with people of similar interests who do have relatively unadvertised training classes. Any high church meditation group should be able to steer you the right direction.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
...... Any high church meditation group should be able to steer you the right direction.
Never heard the term "high church" before.... Makes me wonder if I am in a "middle church" or a "low church".
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:MJ. Smith said:
...... Any high church meditation group should be able to steer you the right direction.
Never heard the term "high church" before.... Makes me wonder if I am in a "middle church" or a "low church".
High church is traditional and liturgical. stained glass windows. ministers in robes. choir that can sing well. sometimes large pipe organs. Beautiful buildings with stained glass, artwork and sometimes statues. Likely you would sit in a wooden pew which is intentionally made to be uncomfortable. The liturgy is centered around the sacraments.
Low church is pretty much the opposite of all that. Rejection of most ancient traditions. Unrehearsed and/or unscheduled preaching, unorganized and unstructured service, ministers wear jeans or whatever. Many times centered around an individual personality. No sacraments (except maybe baptisms occasionally). Communion usually not practiced at every service, or possibly not at all. The leaders take great pride in being "Bible only" and/or "led by the Spirit". And sometimes maybe they are?
I have both types of churches within walking distance from my house, so not really a class warfare thing. Its just different traditions.
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John said:xnman said:MJ. Smith said:
...... Any high church meditation group should be able to steer you the right direction.
Never heard the term "high church" before.... Makes me wonder if I am in a "middle church" or a "low church".
High church is traditional and liturgical. stained glass windows. ministers in robes. choir that can sing well. sometimes large pipe organs. Beautiful buildings with stained glass, artwork and sometimes statues. Likely you would sit in a wooden pew which is intentionally made to be uncomfortable. The liturgy is centered around the sacraments.
Low church is pretty much the opposite of all that. Rejection of most ancient traditions. Unrehearsed and/or unscheduled preaching, unorganized and unstructured service, ministers wear jeans or whatever. Many times centered around an individual personality. No sacraments (except maybe baptisms occasionally). Communion usually not practiced at every service, or possibly not at all. The leaders take great pride in being "Bible only" and/or "led by the Spirit". And sometimes maybe they are?
I have both types of churches within walking distance from my house, so not really a class warfare thing. Its just different traditions.
In terms of a UK interpretation, I'd say your low church definition is too extreme. Most non-liturgical churches would be seen as low church. So UK Baptists would be low church. They'd certainly have sacraments such as communion and baptism, albeit communion might be once a month. They might not follow a liturgy, but a congregation's service would probably follow a local pattern of worship, prayer and preaching. The preaching would normally follow a series - either through a book of the Bible or thematic. Additionally, I haven't experienced mainstream non-liturgical denominations being centered around a minister - just centered round Christ.
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Paul Caneparo said:John said:xnman said:MJ. Smith said:
...... Any high church meditation group should be able to steer you the right direction.
Never heard the term "high church" before.... Makes me wonder if I am in a "middle church" or a "low church".
High church is traditional and liturgical. stained glass windows. ministers in robes. choir that can sing well. sometimes large pipe organs. Beautiful buildings with stained glass, artwork and sometimes statues. Likely you would sit in a wooden pew which is intentionally made to be uncomfortable. The liturgy is centered around the sacraments.
Low church is pretty much the opposite of all that. Rejection of most ancient traditions. Unrehearsed and/or unscheduled preaching, unorganized and unstructured service, ministers wear jeans or whatever. Many times centered around an individual personality. No sacraments (except maybe baptisms occasionally). Communion usually not practiced at every service, or possibly not at all. The leaders take great pride in being "Bible only" and/or "led by the Spirit". And sometimes maybe they are?
I have both types of churches within walking distance from my house, so not really a class warfare thing. Its just different traditions.
In terms of a UK interpretation, I'd say your low church definition is too extreme. Most non-liturgical churches would be seen as low church. So UK Baptists would be low church. They'd certainly have sacraments such as communion and baptism, albeit communion might be once a month. They might not follow a liturgy, but a congregation's service would probably follow a local pattern of worship, prayer and preaching. The preaching would normally follow a series - either through a book of the Bible or thematic. Additionally, I haven't experienced mainstream non-liturgical denominations being centered around a minister - just centered round Christ.
Additionally Anglican/Episcopal churches in the UK come in both high and low church varieties and sometimes even the same "church/parish" will have different service patterns to appeal to differing people.
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xnman said:MJ. Smith said:
...... Any high church meditation group should be able to steer you the right direction.
Never heard the term "high church" before.... Makes me wonder if I am in a "middle church" or a "low church".
I believe they’re Anglican terms. As I recall, the classifications used are: High, Low, and Broad. I believe you can find Wiki entries for all three. But, as they’re not terms from my own religious tradition, I’ll avoid offering evaluation to avoid violating forum rules.
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xnman said:MJ. Smith said:
...... Any high church meditation group should be able to steer you the right direction.
Never heard the term "high church" before.... Makes me wonder if I am in a "middle church" or a "low church".
Don’t worry, it used to happen to me too, until I started researching. That’s why we research different kinds of books so we won’t get caught off guard when someone comes along throwing out terms like that.
DAL
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xnman said:MJ. Smith said:
...... Any high church meditation group should be able to steer you the right direction.
Never heard the term "high church" before.... Makes me wonder if I am in a "middle church" or a "low church".
Don’t worry, it used to happen to me too, until I started researching. That’s why we research different kinds of books so we won’t get caught off guard when someone comes along throwing out terms like that.
DAL
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David Wanat said:
But, as they’re not terms from my own religious tradition,
Sometimes I am astonished by what is "not common knowledge". I was 14, living in the least populated county in the state, when I first met a person from a big city who described herself as "high church" although she never attended church. I've known Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians ... that describe themselves as "high church." On the other hand, I had never heard the phrase "high view of scripture" until I was on the forums ... and it didn't mean what I would have thought. It's as confusing as the reversal of meaning between mediation and contemplation when applied to world religions and Christianity. But, David, they are strictly descriptive terms not evaluative ones, so anyone can freely use them.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:David Wanat said:
But, as they’re not terms from my own religious tradition,
Sometimes I am astonished by what is "not common knowledge". I was 14, living in the least populated country in the state, when I first met a person from a big city who described herself as "high church" although she never attended church. I've known Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians ... that describe themselves as "high church." On the other hand, I had never heard the phrase "high view of scripture" until I was on the forums ... and it didn't mean what I would have thought. It's as confusing as the reversal of meaning between mediation and contemplation when applied to world religions and Christianity. But, David, they are strictly descriptive terms not evaluative ones, so anyone can freely use them.
I think I first encountered the term reading Sheldon Vanauken‘s “A Severe Mercy.” As this was pre-Internet, it took me awhile to track down the meanings.
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Looks like the offering is expanding if you look at the latest pre-pubs
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Logos sold out to investors. The drive is profit, not Bible study. The battle for a trustworthy Bible study environment is lost. Be glad for what you have. Just consider it another Amazon with better search capability, More and more people will want that of course. Logos probably isn't going away. Your books are reasonably secure. Logos (or something) will grow.
Keep in mind that as these resources filter into Library packages soon, you will be sending your money and support to the authors and publishers.
I am watching hopefully for what company rises to better serve the next generation.0 -
GaoLu said:
Logos sold out to investors. The drive is profit, not Bible study. The battle for a trustworthy Bible study environment is lost.
Well, if you dump your side businesses (and customer churches), and concentrate on 'Logos', growth has to come from somewhere. Aka 'books'. There's only so many HALOT customers. And how many commentaries does anyone need? More!
I personally don't mind the witches. Or great books on the Tarot. But I do suspect the hard under-belly of Logos will soften ... the ancient and OL. Logos will transition back to Libronix (wide readership) to get the financials needed.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks for letting us know about this. These titles were automatically added to our system by the publisher. We've now blocked certain categories of books from our system, even if the publisher sends them to us. We're still working on making sure we've removed all the inappropriate categories without blocking content that some customers would find helpful.
The reason these ended up on the site was nothing to do with our investors, and everything to do with us wanting to provide customers with all the relevant content we can. Unfortunately, scaling up means we're no longer able to manually add every eBook individually, and occasionally books like these slip through.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Thanks for letting us know about this. These titles were automatically added to our system by the publisher. We've now blocked certain categories of books from our system, even if the publisher sends them to us. We're still working on making sure we've removed all the inappropriate categories without blocking content that some customers would find helpful.
The reason these ended up on the site was nothing to do with our investors, and everything to do with us wanting to provide customers with all the relevant content we can. Unfortunately, scaling up means we're no longer able to manually add every eBook individually, and occasionally books like these slip through.
Thanks Mark. I deliberately passed no comment, but it's good to know there should be some greater focus on what's offered.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Thanks for letting us know about this. These titles were automatically added to our system by the publisher. We've now blocked certain categories of books from our system, even if the publisher sends them to us. We're still working on making sure we've removed all the inappropriate categories without blocking content that some customers would find helpful.
The reason these ended up on the site was nothing to do with our investors, and everything to do with us wanting to provide customers with all the relevant content we can. Unfortunately, scaling up means we're no longer able to manually add every eBook individually, and occasionally books like these slip through.
Those statements help. Thanks.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Thanks for letting us know about this. These titles were automatically added to our system by the publisher. We've now blocked certain categories of books from our system, even if the publisher sends them to us. We're still working on making sure we've removed all the inappropriate categories without blocking content that some customers would find helpful.
The reason these ended up on the site was nothing to do with our investors, and everything to do with us wanting to provide customers with all the relevant content we can. Unfortunately, scaling up means we're no longer able to manually add every eBook individually, and occasionally books like these slip through.
The filtering process still seems quite weak:
https://www.logos.com/product/267125/i-am-god-wisdom-and-revelation-from-mystical-consciousness
It surprises me that mainstream authors whose books are offered by Logos have gaps in their published works available within Logos and yet books like this appear. I know it's an ebook resource, but I wouldn't mind ebooks for books not currently within Logos if that was the only way to have them.
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Paul Caneparo said:
yet books like this appear
I don't doubt the title will 'disappear' ... Logos is a soft-touch. And I don't particularly need the title. But I have been reading up on 'gnosis', image of God (OT), image of Jesus (NT) and thence Pauline spiritualism. What stands out here is later church doctrine which provides the dissonance you speak of. Theology is theology.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I still don’t get why people worry about this so much. They must have too much time on their hands to be policing these things. Think of Logos like LifeWay or Barnes n Nobles — They sell all kinds of books and no one goes there to tell them a particular book shouldn’t be sold. So why worry whether a book slipped through the filter or not? It‘s just going to get transferred to faithlife ebooks anyway, which is still the same company! I don’t see anyone complaining about all the books on politics that have slipped through the filter or the ones that suggest 1,000 places to see before you die or the witcher blood of elves 😂😂 😂 Stop the whining and grow up! Exercise a little bit of discernment or buy a book that shows you how to get discernment, but stop the whining already! You’re not entitled to tell people how to run their business and what to sell or not sell! If you wanna have control over that, then buy the company or establish your own! 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
DAL
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DAL said:
Stop the whining and grow up!
I actually find the book useful, DAL. Not whining. Paul seems to be saying ... gee, if this, why so much trouble obtaining the good stuff?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:DAL said:
Stop the whining and grow up!
I actually find the book useful, DAL. Not whining. Paul seems to be saying ... gee, if this, why so much trouble obtaining the good stuff?
Correct. I find it disappointing good stuff doesn't get into the pre-pub program, when very obscure stuff does. It's up to people what they purchase. I certainly don't police what's on the website, but I check what's added to the pre-pub page on a daily basis. The book I referenced was added today to the pre-pub page. I don't know anything about the book other than it seems an odd addition when books I find referenced regularly aren't available - let alone on the pre-pub page to gauge interest.
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Paul Caneparo said:
The filtering process still seems quite weak:
https://www.logos.com/product/267125/i-am-god-wisdom-and-revelation-from-mystical-consciousness
It surprises me that mainstream authors whose books are offered by Logos have gaps in their published works available within Logos and yet books like this appear. I know it's an ebook resource, but I wouldn't mind ebooks for books not currently within Logos if that was the only way to have them.
To quote Charlie Brown: "Good grief." What is wrong with this book that all other Christian Logos users will agree with? I can understand why many would not want to read it, assuming the blurbs are accurate. Obviously, I've not read the unpublished book to be able to genuinely review it. But there is nothing in the blurbs that I can't think of a classic Christian author who has also said, Mystical ecological activism is not an interest of mine ... but you have now "forced" me to buy it so that I can intelligently protect the right of all of us to not have our reading needlessly censored by people whose views are unlike our own. This was not the week to do this as I have recently purchased two books from a Christian publisher I respect, only to find that this usually reliable publisher is NOT reliable on the topic of the books - history is abused to fit the needs of their presuppositions. That is the sort of misleading/erroneous material that is more dangerous than this book appears to be. If you wish to read the book, then give a negative review based upon the actual contents of the book - more power to you. We need more solid reviews that are based in the contents of the book not the presuppositions of the reader.
To make my point that this is not outside mainstream Christianity, using Bard and my own knowledge to review the results, I asked:
[quote]List some Protestant authors who speak of union with God in a way that could be interpreted as implying "I am God"
The historical (not theological ) evidence of authors who say it or something similar:
[quote]
- Jacob Böhme (1575-1624): This German Lutheran shoemaker, known for his visionary writings, described union with God as a process of "becoming God." He emphasized the idea of "Grund" or ground, an inner divine spark within humanity that awakens through spiritual practice. While not denying God's transcendence, Böhme's language suggested a radical blurring of boundaries between creature and creator.
- Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855): This Danish Lutheran philosopher, known for his existentialist thought, used paradoxical language to describe the "God-Man" relationship. He spoke of moments of "becoming God" in intense faith, but also stressed the absolute gulf between finite and infinite. His concept of "the leap of faith" aimed to capture the mysterious nature of this union, existing beyond logic and reason.
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945): This German Lutheran theologian and anti-Nazi dissenter, known for his work on Christology, spoke of a "being one" with God in Christ. He emphasized the participatory nature of salvation, where believers are not merely objects of God's grace but active participants in the divine life. While not claiming personal apotheosis, his language hinted at a profound transformation that transcends the usual subject-object relationship.
- John Wesley (1703-1791): Though not often associated with the language of "deification," the founder of Methodism described a process of "entire sanctification" where believers become progressively filled with God's love and partake in the divine nature. He emphasized the perfectibility of human nature through grace, drawing parallels with Christ's holiness. While not blurring the Creator-creature distinction, language like "partaking in the divine nature" could be misinterpreted as "becoming God."
- Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758): This American theologian and philosopher, known for his central role in the Great Awakening, spoke of a spiritual "union with God" as the goal of Christian life. He described this union as becoming "partakers of the divine nature" and experiencing a "divine and supernatural light" illuminating the soul. While maintaining a clear distinction between God and the created order, his language could be interpreted as suggesting a profound merging with the divine.
- Charles Finney (1792-1875): This revivalist preacher and theologian, leading figure in the Second Great Awakening, emphasized a process of "entire sanctification" where believers become "filled with all the fullness of God." He spoke of this experience as a complete surrender to God's will and a participation in divine love. While not claiming literal divinity, the phrase "filled with all the fullness of God" could be misconstrued as claiming identification with God.
- Andrew Murray (1828-1917): This South African pastor and author from the Dutch Reformed tradition emphasized the importance of "abiding in Christ" as a state of continuous union with God. He described this union as a "divine life" flowing through the believer, enabling them to reflect God's character and participate in his power. While not erasing the Creator-creature distinction, the emphasis on fully experiencing "divine life" could be understood as claiming a share in God's essence.
- Watchman Nee (1903-1972): This Chinese Christian leader and author associated with the Plymouth Brethren tradition spoke of a spiritual experience of "being in Christ." He emphasized the believer's identification with Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension, leading to a complete union with God. While preserving God's transcendence, his language of "being in Christ" and sharing in his heavenly dwelling could be misinterpreted as claiming apotheosis.
So, if the title and a blurb is enough to kick Robinson out of Logos, I expect a similar expulsion of these 8 authors. My point is that the doctrine of theosis is very deep in Christianity and even the Protestant schism could not entirely wipe it out. Experience trumps theory and both extend outside easy expression in language. It is not a valid criteria for inclusion/exclusion in the Logos library.
Note if you want early examples, I suggest you read
- Irenaeus of Lyon
- Clement of Alexandria (believers as becoming "partakers of the divine nature" (Second Epistle of Clement, 9) and "gods by imitation" (Protrepticus, II, 107))
- Origen of Alexandria (mystical union where "the soul becomes one with God" (On First Principles, Book III, Chapter 4))
- Athanasius of Alexandria ("God became man so that man might become God" (On the Incarnation, 54))
- Gregory of Nyssa
- Macarius the Great ("When a man becomes one with God, there is neither man nor God, but only God" (Fifth Homily on the Beatitudes))
- Symeon the New Theologian
- Gregory of Palamas (He emphasized that our "theosis" involves experiencing God's energies, not merging with his essence)
For those who wish to see this as theological rather than historical, I will admit my own theological position aligns most closely with Gregory Palamas.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:DAL said:
Stop the whining and grow up!
I actually find the book useful, DAL. Not whining. Paul seems to be saying ... gee, if this, why so much trouble obtaining the good stuff?
Well my bad! It seems the overall tone of the thread has been “wah wah 😩 another book I don’t like is being sold in the Logos/FL website.” My apologies to Paul, but it wasn’t an attack directed at him.
All of us need to exercise discernment when purchasing anything, but the problem is the tone of entitlement some have adopted of expecting FL to remove a book just because they don’t like to see it on the website.
And yes, I do agree with the ”Why these other books make it to the Logos platform, but not others.” I guess we’ll never know and they’ll never tell us. The Defending the Faith Study Bible is available in kindle and Olive Tree and yet Logos made it so hard for Apologetics Press to have that Study Bible in the Logos platform. I’m still scratching my head over that!Anyway, have a great weekend!
DAL
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Paul Caneparo said:
It surprises me that mainstream authors whose books are offered by Logos have gaps in their published works available within Logos and yet books like this appear.
This is the same concern that caused me to start Note to Progressive Christians ... - Logos Forums The same concern applies to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anabaptists, Friends Society . . . I suspect much of it is related to the marketing strategy of the publisher in some case, and the (unintentional) bias of Logos staff in the publishers they contact. I see a real opportunity for Logos to grow and provide a service if Logos were to pick up the electronic publications of the Christian diaspora of the Armenian, Coptic, Assyrian churches (those are the ones I have found heavily using the internet to keep their traditions alive). They could offer a very inexpensive packages of only the resources that the church is currently providing online --- expand the offerings to their current market and slowly adding features and resources to slowly encourage the diaspora to use Logos more broadly.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I should possibly have started a new post, as I know nothing of the book I referenced - other than the fact it doesn't seem to be what one might expect to buy from Logos.
One example of a book not in Logos that one might expect to see - probably as an ebook is Billy Graham's last book which is published by Thomas Nelson. We have the audio version available, but not the ebook:
https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/193178/where-i-am-heaven-eternity-and-our-life-beyond
I'm not sure how an almost universally admired Christian with a recent book published by a major supplier of resources to Logos doesn't have a book in Logos and yet we have some books offered with possibly marginal interest.
I get how some books which would better suit a Logos research edition don't make it, but Logos offer Logos Reader or "Faithlife" ebooks to cater to publisher store preferences. Hence my surprise that some books from publishers who work with Logos never appear in Logos despite being available as ebooks elsewhere which means the publisher has a file that could be supplied to Logos.
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Paul Caneparo said:
as I know nothing of the book I referenced - other than the fact it doesn't seem to be what one might expect to buy from Logos.
I didn't see any reason not to expect a Christian ecological activist in Logos although I would see it as a plus on the side of progressives getting something, however minor. But you tricked me into purchasing it when you knew nothing about it?? ouch!!
Paul Caneparo said:I'm not sure how an almost universally admired Christian with a recent book published by a major supplier of resources to Logos doesn't have a book in Logos
Hmm, I knew the author was famous but didn't know he was universally admired. I remember admiring George Beverly Shea - I think he popularized "How Great Thou Art" to the tune of Finlandia while I was still in grade school ... okay, I'm teasing a bit but I think your statement is not universally true even when you limit it to USA Christians -- many of us are trained to distrust any preacher/healer/teacher who intentionally gets rich or famous.
I would suspect licensing issues are behind why only the audio is in Logos -- at least until I had evidence to the contrary.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I was trying to avoid a theological debate. I was however endeavouring to make a more general point that there are some surprising books appearing, but more specifically that there are some omissions that I can pick up not only in Kindle, but with Christian software competitors. It seems that Logos either get forgotten or perhaps don't have the relationships to secure a publishers' complete catalogue.
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I would rather Logos expend resources creating a reverse interlinear for the CEB and NJPS (vote here and here) instead of wasting time obsessing over every little book that slips through their filter that most Logos users would never even have noticed if someone hadn't complained about it.
It's amazing how a lot of the Christian books I'm interested in never accidentally slip through the cracks. I'd like Logos to spend resources getting more publishers on board that aren't B&H or Crossway and the like.
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Paul Caneparo said:
It seems that Logos either get forgotten or perhaps don't have the relationships to secure a publishers' complete catalogue.
I would not expect a bricks-and-mortar bookshop to seek all the titles of a particular author but rather to concentrate on getting a breadth of material to broaden their appeal. They have the advantage of being able to special order what they do not carry. I'm not sure how that translates into Logos' electronic format, but I would still hope for/expect them to expend their resources for converting books to emphasize the breadth of market and the fundamental added usefulness of the electronic version in Logos. So something like the Graham title which I see more as a book for reading rather than a useful research tool, I have no expectation as to whether or not Logos carries it ... I can be pleasantly surprised or mildly disappointed.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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