How could Logos help your sermon-writing process?

We're very interested in better understanding how Logos could help in the sermon-writing process. If you preach, it would be a great help if you could fill in this quick survey. Even better, could you also ask your own pastor or your pastor friends to fill it out too? It would be great to hear from a wide range of voices.

Thank you!

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MJ. Smith

Mark, please broaden your outlook. If you look at sheer volume, more faith formation, adult education, Bible study, and daily service reflections and lessons are used in the church than primary sermons. Logos needs to provide more complete services to the full range of people who formally spread the word rather than concentrating on single-text sermons which is a small slice of the actual marketplace.

Morgan

I've noted it in the survey itself, but the sermon has too many inconveniences that are constantly distracting me from the writing process.

Inserting passages is inconsistent. Sometimes when typing in an abbreviated passage it is erased when inserting the passage, other times it remains and I have to clean it up.
When triple clicking to select an entire paragraph you will effect the formatting of the paragraph below. Example: if you have "Heading 1" text followed by a paragraph in "Normal" style, triple-clicking on the heading and then backspace will put the following normal paragraph into "Heading 1" formatting.
Often spellchecker will stop displaying when deleting words in other parts of the same paragraph until I enter a line break.
Copy and paste is often broken when trying to copy texts that include inserted passages.
If line one has bold formatting (or any other kind) and then I hit enter to start typing line two, I will turn bold off. If I quickly decide to start over on line two and erase it back to the beginning, bold will come back on again.
Using an asterisk mark (*) and hitting space to start a bullet list is sometimes inconsistent
I wish I could start a numbered list at any other number than 1. My outlines are sometimes broken up by inserted passages and the numbering starts at 1 all over again.

When writing a sermon I just want to write - not constantly battle with the tool I'm using to make it presentable.

Mark

Mark, please broaden your outlook. If you look at sheer volume, more faith formation, adult education, Bible study, and daily service reflections and lessons are used in the church than primary sermons. Logos needs to provide more complete services to the full range of people who formally spread the word rather than concentrating on single-text sermons which is a small slice of the actual marketplace.

I agree with this.

Instead of creating a package sermon, I create notes on an entire book of the Bible. Not producing a commentary, but notes that I use to preach or share or discuss in a variety of meeting formats. I create these notes which can be hundreds of pages and make a personal book. But perhaps there is a better way to publish and create such a file that would be accessible even on my phone or tablet (PB does not allow this).

Mal Walker

Thanks for the opportunity to provide some feedback and input Mark. I appreciate Logos taking some time to hear from a bunch of its users and other people.

Regarding the survey, I found the question "How much of your sermon preparation do you use Logos for?" to be a bit tricky. See, I will have Logos open for practically 100% of the time that I am writing sermons, but I almost never use the sermon builder or manager tools. Instead, all the writing takes place within a MS Word document. So I do use Logos for basically 100% of my preparation, but 0% of the actual writing or preaching of the sermon occurs within Logos.

Moving on, I'm in agreement with MJ - Logos is heavily orientated towards Sermons, but would be nice to see some love given to bible study creation/management, Sunday school classes etc. However, as Morgan has noted, the experience of using the sermon builder tool is frustrating and full of inconveniences. And most of this comes down to the fact that the sermon builder is a stripped down version of a word processor. Case in point, font size is not pt 10,11,12 etc but listed as S,M,L,XL,XXL.

So my question is - why would someone use the sermon builder tool when they can just use a fully fledged word processor like MS Word? Indeed, by the time I started using Logos I already had hundreds, if not thousands of hours logged on MS Word. I know that application inside and out, and the sermon builder tool just can't compete with that.

That said, here are some things I'd be keen to see that would for me help make the sermon-writing process more functional.

Popular quotes is a great function and needs to be accessible as its own tool.
The idea that people might write sermons in logos and then NOT use logos to preach, but instead desire to print the document doesn't seem to have been considered. I'd be keen to see this corrected.

I have no visual representation of the page size/margins/number of pages within the sermon builder tool.
I have no control of the size/location/formatting of the page numbers when printing.
'Exported from Logos Bible Software...' is stamped over each page when printing.
Every heading comes printed with a rather large bar across the page.
Exporting a sermon to MS Word and then correcting all this stuff there is possible, but why double handle when I can just write it in Word?

Part of the sermon-writing process for me often involves collaboration. I have that ability with MS Word or Google Docs etc to send a sermon document to someone else and have them review it. This would be a feature I'd like to see within Logos, just avoid the temptation to require the reviewer to own logos themselves - if they don't have logos the document could be accessed via a web app.
I have a checklist I frequently go over with my sermons to ensure I've done XYZ or considered XYZ. Custom workflows for sermon prep have helped in this, but I see potential for a custom checklist feature within the sermon builder tool.
Handout/Question etc presuppose a certain way of presenting sermons that isn't shared by everyone. I myself have no idea how to use them or why I would want to
It's a little thing, but in addition to the word counter at the bottom I'd also have an estimated time counter. Input your words spoken per minute (persists across sermon documents) and it will calculate and estimated time to preach the sermon.
Preaching mode needs to open within the logos app itself and function offline.

Richard Wardman

Thanks for asking about this, Mark.

I said in the survey that I don't want Logos to write my sermon for me. There are already a number of tools that I will never use, such as sermon outlines, illustrations etc. I rarely, if ever, find these helpful. I think the reason for this is that the most helpful and powerful sermon that I can preach is one that I have laboured hard to prepare and that I have prepared with my specific congregation in mind.

So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!

Also, given some of the questions you've asked it seems that you are working on/considering resources based on sharing sermon content to social media. That could be useful, but again I would consider this a nice-to-have rather than an essential tool.

I hope this helps.

Jerry Bush

I filled out the survey, but If I could make two things happen it would be a spell checker in Sermon Builder that actually works and more formatting options in it as well.

David Thomas

Mark, please broaden your outlook.

Both/And - I am glad for a laser focus on those who prepare public sermons regularly. Software can free up time for the many other duties of professional clergy. What's Best Next is to begin pre-thinking priority B which is the proficient exegesis and homiletics of laity.

If users don't begrudge development for clergy, I will not begrudge development for users that are outside of my experience. Different users/different priorities requires prioritization.

Mark Barnes (Logos)

Mark, please broaden your outlook. If you look at sheer volume, more faith formation, adult education, Bible study, and daily service reflections and lessons are used in the church than primary sermons. Logos needs to provide more complete services to the full range of people who formally spread the word rather than concentrating on single-text sermons which is a small slice of the actual marketplace.

I agree with that. Logos has some great all-around tools, but some users want more focused tools to help them do one thing really well. Our evolving Sermon Tools suite is one example of trying to meet a more focused need, as are Workflows. But we can do better, and – alongside possible improvements to help with sermon writing – we're also thinking a lot about how we could help Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and others in similar roles. Maybe there'll be a survey about that in the not too distant future.

Mark Barnes (Logos)

I've noted it in the survey itself, but the sermon has too many inconveniences that are constantly distracting me from the writing process.

Thanks for listing these out. I was aware of some of these problems, but not all of them. We do have some significant work penciled in for next year to improve the basic editing experience, which won't be a small task. This list will help us with that process.

David Thomas

we're also thinking a lot about how we could help Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and others in similar roles

[Y] [Y]

Mark Barnes (Logos)

So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!

I understand what you mean, but I only partly agree.

It's vital that we wrestle with the text. It's essential we don't take shortcuts. It's necessary that we labor over the message.

At the same time, lexicons make aspects of sermon preparation easier. So do commentaries and theological dictionaries. Heck, my computer itself makes aspects of sermon preparation both easier and quicker than a pen and paper.

Where we especially want to help in the sermon-writing process is in these ways:

Quickly and easily surface content that answers your questions or raises questions worth wrestling with. If we can put the best answer to your search query at #1 instead of #5, perhaps that gives you ten more minutes to spend on something more productive.
Reduce the time spent on non-critical work. Things like inserting Bible text into sermons or automatically generating slides fall into this category. The social media posts you mentioned could be thought of like this, too.
Stimulate your thinking when you're at a dead end (or is it only me that has dead ends?). Perhaps you've ground to a halt thinking of a quote that would make this great point come alive. Or perhaps what you really need are some ideas for an illustration that would help the congregation to apply this truth to their lives. Do you want a copy/paste illustration? I know I don't. But could seeing a few different ideas stimulate you to think of a related illustration that perfectly fits your message and your flock? That's sometimes been my experience.

The things we're trying to do could make aspects of sermon preparation easier and quicker. Not so you can sit on the beach with a piña colada, but so you can reinvest that time into getting an even deeper understanding of the text, or spend more time in prayer, or apply the text more appropriate to your congregation. The overall process shouldn't be easy. But we're dedicated to making some parts of the process easier so you can spend more time on what really matters.

Stephan Thelen

I use Logos regularly for sermons and home groups.

The support for keyboard shortcuts is inadequate. I would like to be able to customize the shortcuts - as is also possible in Word. I use Logos to write my sermon to find my own sermon if I use the text later.
The support for finding illustrations is inadequate. I already have a lot of resources - probably too many. Logos offers me so many unsuitable illustrations that it simply takes too much time to work through them.
The support for finding citations could be significantly improved. Why can I only filter on an author if I already have a citation from him? The selection (one German) is too small. Who needs Goethe and Shakespeare here? Couldn't you set up a personal filter here?
I don't use the slide support (too inflexible), handouts or questionnaires at all.

Stephan Thelen

5. the prioritization tool could be greatly expanded. In particular, the various resource classes should be better supported.

6. why are there no personal paragraph and font styles that can be called up with a shortcut? So easy to implement - so helpful!

Dave Hooton

we're also thinking a lot about how we could help Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and others in similar roles. Maybe there'll be a survey about that in the not too distant future.

That would be good. I've never been able to come to grips with the Sermon tool, but it is overkill for Small Groups where I use Clippings. Slides and Handouts should be incorporated, but not based on the Sermon model! It also needs improvements to text editing and searching.

xnman

I like the sermon function. When I build a sermon.... I agree whole heartly with the thinking that we should wrestle with the text. I also think sermons should be biblical driven. And I think people should show how they build their sermons.... this might help you in this...

In my sermons.... I might have Bible text, quotes, text from some book, maybe an example. I like slides and often use PowerPoint for that.

Because of the above.... putting verses, text from some book, examples and doing the slides should be easy.

I like the way quotes work in sermons.

I would like to see with Sermons the ability to create a template of how I want my sermon to look like and such, and to be able to re-use that template in Sermons... Now there is a work around.... but I would like to save the template in Sermons and then click on it and when it comes up I have to rename it to what I want to call it now. And the template would automatically reset the headings to what I changed them to in the template (size and font and such).

I also would like change the background on the sermon page for a heading section.

MJ. Smith

Mark, please broaden your outlook.

Both/And - I am glad for a laser focus on those who prepare public sermons regularly.

But the focus is only on a small subset of those who prepare public sermons regularly:

the focus is on sermons with long preparation times - not for those who preach daily or add the optional preaching to the morning and evening prayer
the focus is on sermons based on a single text - little support for the interrelationships between multiple texts
the focus omits what one exegesis author refers to as "exegeting the congregation"
the focus ignores the interplay of liturgical texts with the scripture and sermon
the focus ignores the progressive churches that use expanded canons with gnostic text additions

xnman

Mark, please broaden your outlook.

Both/And - I am glad for a laser focus on those who prepare public sermons regularly.

But the focus is only on a small subset of those who prepare public sermons regularly:

the focus is on sermons with long preparation times - not for those who preach daily or add the optional preaching to the morning and evening prayer

the focus is on sermons based on a single text - little support for the interrelationships between multiple texts

the focus omits what one exegesis author refers to as "exegeting the congregation"

the focus ignores the interplay of liturgical texts with the scripture and sermon

the focus ignores the progressive churches that use expanded canons with gnostic text additions

What does "the focus omits what one exegesis author refers to as "exegeting the congregation" mean? I have not heard this before.

1Cor10 31

So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!

What? Why would you want to spend 20 hours doing something that you can do in 10 hours? Why would you want to spend 10 hours doing something you can do in 5 hours? That is the whole point of having a software, isn't it? I am obviously missing the point you are trying to make. (Yes, I am not a pastor, but a lay person).

For publishing research as a financial economist, we use statistical software. I tell my PhD students that I don't care about beautiful their software code is. It is irrelevant. What matters is the output. Similarly, I don't care if the pastors spent 20 hours on the sermon. What matters is whether they are explaining the text well and whether they give practical takeaways from the text.

MJ. Smith

Why would you want to spend 10 hours doing something you can do in 5 hours? That is the whole point of having a software, isn't it?

My answer is basically I use software to read ABOUT the Bible, its grammar, structure, etc.; here the appropriate speed is the speed in which I can mentally digest the data presented. I don't use software to study the Bible where the goal is not simply understanding but allowing the scripture to shape me. Here I don't judge tools by time saved but rather by barriers broken.

Bill

We're very interested in better understanding how Logos could help in the sermon-writing process.

Apologies, I'm not a pastor, but I would like to comment that the tool used by pastors to write can not be significantly different than that used by Bible teachers, scholars or layman in the church. It also seems obvious that many, many posts on these forums by pastors and others, refer to themselves using word processing programs such as Word, Pages, or PDF. So, it comes to no surprise to me that what many want and need is a full fledge word processing tool like Microsoft Word or Adobe integrated in Logos that smoothly interacts with all other features and tools in Logos and Proclaim, Powerpoint, Media tool, etc.

This is not a new thought, it has been around these forums for quite some time. I'm not sure why Faithlife has chosen to skirt around this staple word processing idea with an underdeveloped note tool and this attempt at making a specialized sermon writing tool, when maybe what should be developed is a really good professional word processor in Logos that could do both.

Maybe I am the one not understanding though, it wouldn't be the first time.[:D]

Mark

It also seems obvious that many, many posts on these forums by pastors and others, refer to themselves using word processing programs such as Word, Pages, or PDF. So, it comes to no surprise to me that what many want and need is a full fledge word processing tool like Microsoft Word or Adobe integrated in Logos that smoothly interacts with all other features and tools in Logos and Proclaim, Powerpoint, Media tool, etc.

Another issue is what happens if one day all sermons, Bible study notes are in a logos format, and Logos no longer exists. In other words, I would think that most would want to have their personal notes and sermons in a format that is standard.

This is why I write my notes and outlines and sermons in .docx format. If there was an import tool that would preserve the formatting of docx so that the material remains in the format of my choice but can also be uploaded into Logos, that proves ideal.

Or the other way around...If sermons, Bible study notes etc can be created in Logos format, but then converted in a number of different formats outside of Logos...that proves ideal as well.

Don Awalt

My .02 - I have never used the sermon tool, although I use Logos/Verbum in research and sermon prep. The reason is, I see the research of the sermon and the actual writing of the sermon as two different things. IMHO Logos will always be playing catch up to a quality word processor like Word. So I write in Word, with all its tools etc., and use Verbum side by side when/as needed.

I don't need all the little things Logos sermon prep has to categorize and make finding sermons easier, as Word search in a folder (or folder structure, whatever the user needs) is SO EASY - I can instantly find Week 1 Advent sermons, or that sermon where I talked about Zaccheus, etc. - no need for fancy tools to find what I am looking for.

Plus, the final product is easily printable, shareable, and I know they are backed up and I can see them on a mobile device, Mac, Windows, or any other device that does or will support Microsoft Windows.

Taking this a little further re: some of the comments about expanding sermon prep to include the development of other types of material for church presentation/use, then imho it seems the prep side gets even harder. So now Logos has to emulate what I can do to develop materials in Powerpoint? Or what if I have a study group and we are developing and collaborating on reflections, devotionals, etc. - maybe we all have One Note, or some Windows tool that makes sharing and collaboration on the document easier - Logos will never do that, as for one not everyone will have Logos just to do/review the prepared documents/materials. There are also choices for Lesson Builder software, that are inexpensive and very rich in functionality - does Logos try to chase being as good as those products too? This risks entering a complete loss of focus to me.

I just don't ever see Logos catching up to that side of the prep process - and if I asked myself, "What is the advantage of writing my sermons in Logos vs. how I do it now?", I don't see a compelling answer.

So, I really wish Logos would just focus on making the research and prep capabilities as rich as possible and not bloat it by more and more effort to compete on the writing side of the sermon. Or make it a complementary/standalone product if Logos insists on chasing this as part of their mission.

My .02.

xnman

My .02 - I have never used the sermon tool, although I use Logos/Verbum in research and sermon prep. The reason is, I see the research of the sermon and the actual writing of the sermon as two different things. IMHO Logos will always be playing catch up to a quality word processor like Word. So I write in Word, with all its tools etc., and use Verbum side by side when/as needed.

I don't need all the little things Logos sermon prep has to categorize and make finding sermons easier, as Word search in a folder (or folder structure, whatever the user needs) is SO EASY - I can instantly find Week 1 Advent sermons, or that sermon where I talked about Zaccheus, etc. - no need for fancy tools to find what I am looking for.

Plus, the final product is easily printable, shareable, and I know they are backed up and I can see them on a mobile device, Mac, Windows, or any other device that does or will support Microsoft Windows.

Taking this a little further re: some of the comments about expanding sermon prep to include the development of other types of material for church presentation/use, then imho it seems the prep side gets even harder. So now Logos has to emulate what I can do to develop materials in Powerpoint? Or what if I have a study group and we are developing and collaborating on reflections, devotionals, etc. - maybe we all have One Note, or some Windows tool that makes sharing and collaboration on the document easier - Logos will never do that, as for one not everyone will have Logos just to do/review the prepared documents/materials. There are also choices for Lesson Builder software, that are inexpensive and very rich in functionality - does Logos try to chase being as good as those products too? This risks entering a complete loss of focus to me.

I just don't ever see Logos catching up to that side of the prep process - and if I asked myself, "What is the advantage of writing my sermons in Logos vs. how I do it now?", I don't see a compelling answer.

So, I really wish Logos would just focus on making the research and prep capabilities as rich as possible and not bloat it by more and more effort to compete on the writing side of the sermon. Or make it a complementary/standalone product if Logos insists on chasing this as part of their mission.

My .02.

Good point!

DMB

So, I really wish Logos would just focus on making the research and prep capabilities as rich as possible and not bloat it by more and more effort to compete on the writing side of the sermon. Or make it a complementary/standalone product if Logos insists on chasing this as part of their mission.

I don't do sermons, though I listen to bunches. And the same for Bible classes. But I wonder if your perspective (a good one) is at the high-end of expertise? Meaning, is there a place for entry-level?

I only mention, from the perspective of congregations going without pastors these days. Church plants in odd places. I wouldn't argue Logos' current approach is optimal (including the 'workflow' tool; another lost opportunity). And they never quite mastered integration of Logos with the presentation software. And the Logos structure doesn't help out much in the liturgical world.

But give it up?

Added: An example, to explain a bit in real terms, and one of many, we were up in the mountains, our dog in the back of our RV. Sunday morning, and stopped to fill up. A gentleman in a suit, also filling up. Later a cute church, and our dog could relax outside. It turns out the suit'ed gentleman was the class teacher, and a great lesson. The pastor was pretty basic; he was the music team too. But a great experience. But I'd assume Logos could assist in several ways ... nothing sophisticated. Just assist.

Mal Walker

I just don't ever see Logos catching up to that side of the prep process - and if I asked myself, "What is the advantage of writing my sermons in Logos vs. how I do it now?", I don't see a compelling answer.

This. Can't understate how much I agree with this. I offered some thoughts on improving the sermon builder earlier because we were asked, but at the end of the day I simply can't see myself moving away from using Word for the actual writing and review of the sermon, and even preaching on the rare occasion I've preached from a digital copy.

Don't get me wrong, I use Logos the entire time I write sermons. My screen is constantly split between Logos and Word, but the actual writing of sermons is not what Logos is needed for (there is a stronger argument to be made for the use of Logos in sermon planning/management, especially for those churches that use lectionaries).

Another issue is what happens if one day all sermons, Bible study notes are in a logos format, and Logos no longer exists. In other words, I would think that most would want to have their personal notes and sermons in a format that is standard.

This is another major concern that I'm glad has been voiced. It's why the majority of my notes, sermon illustrations, translations and practically everything else is not written down in Logos. Logos is the big fish in bible software, but its a really small pond, and there is nothing to say someone else won't come along in 10 years time and do it better. Using standard formats also means I can share my content with practically anyone and be guaranteed they can access it.

My answer is basically I use software to read ABOUT the Bible, its grammar, structure, etc.; here the appropriate speed is the speed in which I can mentally digest the data presented. I don't use software to study the Bible where the goal is not simply understanding but allowing the scripture to shape me. Here I don't judge tools by time saved but rather by barriers broken.

Lastly, this is a helpful comment by MJ because it shows the diversity of thought we have here, and clues us into the challenge Logos has in creating tools for such a diverse audience. In contrast to MJ, I absolutely judge the tool (bible software) by the time saved. The ability to open BDAG to the exact page I need in literally a few seconds, compared to physically pulling it off the shelf and paging through it is of incredible value to me because it saves me so much time in the long run. This is the same for commentaries, dictionaries, and other resources, plus the ability to search the bible or my resources fast. All of this saves me time, which I can then put to use in writing my sermons etc.

As a quick aside MJ, theologically I don't know how one can understand the bible but not have it shape you? Like, I get that its possible to know a lot about the bible and not be Christian for example, or have an excellent command of the Greek grammar etc and not be a Christian. But if for all that, if they aren't living in faith and repentance to Christ, I'd say they still don't actually understand it. Keen to here what that means for you, especially because it seems to have a big influence in how/why we use logos.

Richard Wardman

So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!

I understand what you mean, but I only partly agree.

It's vital that we wrestle with the text. It's essential we don't take shortcuts. It's necessary that we labor over the message.

At the same time, lexicons make aspects of sermon preparation easier. So do commentaries and theological dictionaries. Heck, my computer itself makes aspects of sermon preparation both easier and quicker than a pen and paper.

Where we especially want to help in the sermon-writing process is in these ways:

Quickly and easily surface content that answers your questions or raises questions worth wrestling with. If we can put the best answer to your search query at #1 instead of #5, perhaps that gives you ten more minutes to spend on something more productive.

Reduce the time spent on non-critical work. Things like inserting Bible text into sermons or automatically generating slides fall into this category. The social media posts you mentioned could be thought of like this, too.

Stimulate your thinking when you're at a dead end (or is it only me that has dead ends?). Perhaps you've ground to a halt thinking of a quote that would make this great point come alive. Or perhaps what you really need are some ideas for an illustration that would help the congregation to apply this truth to their lives. Do you want a copy/paste illustration? I know I don't. But could seeing a few different ideas stimulate you to think of a related illustration that perfectly fits your message and your flock? That's sometimes been my experience.

The things we're trying to do could make aspects of sermon preparation easier and quicker. Not so you can sit on the beach with a piña colada, but so you can reinvest that time into getting an even deeper understanding of the text, or spend more time in prayer, or apply the text more appropriate to your congregation. The overall process shouldn't be easy. But we're dedicated to making some parts of the process easier so you can spend more time on what really matters.

Thanks for your response, Mark. I agree with your disagreement!!

Of course, I do want some aspects of the sermon-writing process to be easier and quicker. That's why I use Logos!!

I guess I'm hesitant about making it so easy that I barely have to use any of the awesome tools in Logos to dig into the text and do some deep thinking myself.

On balance, that's probably more to do with the user than the tool.