How could Logos help your sermon-writing process?
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My .02 - I have never used the sermon tool, although I use Logos/Verbum in research and sermon prep. The reason is, I see the research of the sermon and the actual writing of the sermon as two different things. IMHO Logos will always be playing catch up to a quality word processor like Word. So I write in Word, with all its tools etc., and use Verbum side by side when/as needed.
I don't need all the little things Logos sermon prep has to categorize and make finding sermons easier, as Word search in a folder (or folder structure, whatever the user needs) is SO EASY - I can instantly find Week 1 Advent sermons, or that sermon where I talked about Zaccheus, etc. - no need for fancy tools to find what I am looking for.
Plus, the final product is easily printable, shareable, and I know they are backed up and I can see them on a mobile device, Mac, Windows, or any other device that does or will support Microsoft Windows.
Taking this a little further re: some of the comments about expanding sermon prep to include the development of other types of material for church presentation/use, then imho it seems the prep side gets even harder. So now Logos has to emulate what I can do to develop materials in Powerpoint? Or what if I have a study group and we are developing and collaborating on reflections, devotionals, etc. - maybe we all have One Note, or some Windows tool that makes sharing and collaboration on the document easier - Logos will never do that, as for one not everyone will have Logos just to do/review the prepared documents/materials. There are also choices for Lesson Builder software, that are inexpensive and very rich in functionality - does Logos try to chase being as good as those products too? This risks entering a complete loss of focus to me.
I just don't ever see Logos catching up to that side of the prep process - and if I asked myself, "What is the advantage of writing my sermons in Logos vs. how I do it now?", I don't see a compelling answer.
So, I really wish Logos would just focus on making the research and prep capabilities as rich as possible and not bloat it by more and more effort to compete on the writing side of the sermon. Or make it a complementary/standalone product if Logos insists on chasing this as part of their mission.
My .02.
Good point!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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So, I really wish Logos would just focus on making the research and prep capabilities as rich as possible and not bloat it by more and more effort to compete on the writing side of the sermon. Or make it a complementary/standalone product if Logos insists on chasing this as part of their mission.
I don't do sermons, though I listen to bunches. And the same for Bible classes. But I wonder if your perspective (a good one) is at the high-end of expertise? Meaning, is there a place for entry-level?
I only mention, from the perspective of congregations going without pastors these days. Church plants in odd places. I wouldn't argue Logos' current approach is optimal (including the 'workflow' tool; another lost opportunity). And they never quite mastered integration of Logos with the presentation software. And the Logos structure doesn't help out much in the liturgical world.
But give it up?
Added: An example, to explain a bit in real terms, and one of many, we were up in the mountains, our dog in the back of our RV. Sunday morning, and stopped to fill up. A gentleman in a suit, also filling up. Later a cute church, and our dog could relax outside. It turns out the suit'ed gentleman was the class teacher, and a great lesson. The pastor was pretty basic; he was the music team too. But a great experience. But I'd assume Logos could assist in several ways ... nothing sophisticated. Just assist.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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But give it up?
Oh I doubt they will give it up entirely - that happens very infrequently, doesn't it....but I sure hope they hear the message about bloat, and only doing things that they can be excellent at. Imho they can't win on this strategy, the sermon users won't be happy, and those that see all that as increasingly getting in the way of other functionality won't be happy either. A simple, focused feature that Logos can define "complete" would probably help some.
For the first time I have started to wonder a little about doing the next upgrade - will it make the things I want to do even more unwieldy...
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I just don't ever see Logos catching up to that side of the prep process - and if I asked myself, "What is the advantage of writing my sermons in Logos vs. how I do it now?", I don't see a compelling answer.
This. Can't understate how much I agree with this. I offered some thoughts on improving the sermon builder earlier because we were asked, but at the end of the day I simply can't see myself moving away from using Word for the actual writing and review of the sermon, and even preaching on the rare occasion I've preached from a digital copy.
Don't get me wrong, I use Logos the entire time I write sermons. My screen is constantly split between Logos and Word, but the actual writing of sermons is not what Logos is needed for (there is a stronger argument to be made for the use of Logos in sermon planning/management, especially for those churches that use lectionaries).
Another issue is what happens if one day all sermons, Bible study notes are in a logos format, and Logos no longer exists. In other words, I would think that most would want to have their personal notes and sermons in a format that is standard.
This is another major concern that I'm glad has been voiced. It's why the majority of my notes, sermon illustrations, translations and practically everything else is not written down in Logos. Logos is the big fish in bible software, but its a really small pond, and there is nothing to say someone else won't come along in 10 years time and do it better. Using standard formats also means I can share my content with practically anyone and be guaranteed they can access it.
My answer is basically I use software to read ABOUT the Bible, its grammar, structure, etc.; here the appropriate speed is the speed in which I can mentally digest the data presented. I don't use software to study the Bible where the goal is not simply understanding but allowing the scripture to shape me. Here I don't judge tools by time saved but rather by barriers broken.
Lastly, this is a helpful comment by MJ because it shows the diversity of thought we have here, and clues us into the challenge Logos has in creating tools for such a diverse audience. In contrast to MJ, I absolutely judge the tool (bible software) by the time saved. The ability to open BDAG to the exact page I need in literally a few seconds, compared to physically pulling it off the shelf and paging through it is of incredible value to me because it saves me so much time in the long run. This is the same for commentaries, dictionaries, and other resources, plus the ability to search the bible or my resources fast. All of this saves me time, which I can then put to use in writing my sermons etc.
As a quick aside MJ, theologically I don't know how one can understand the bible but not have it shape you? Like, I get that its possible to know a lot about the bible and not be Christian for example, or have an excellent command of the Greek grammar etc and not be a Christian. But if for all that, if they aren't living in faith and repentance to Christ, I'd say they still don't actually understand it. Keen to here what that means for you, especially because it seems to have a big influence in how/why we use logos.
Current MDiv student at Trinity Theological College - Perth, Western Australia
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Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
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So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!
I understand what you mean, but I only partly agree.
It's vital that we wrestle with the text. It's essential we don't take shortcuts. It's necessary that we labor over the message.
At the same time, lexicons make aspects of sermon preparation easier. So do commentaries and theological dictionaries. Heck, my computer itself makes aspects of sermon preparation both easier and quicker than a pen and paper.
Where we especially want to help in the sermon-writing process is in these ways:
- Quickly and easily surface content that answers your questions or raises questions worth wrestling with. If we can put the best answer to your search query at #1 instead of #5, perhaps that gives you ten more minutes to spend on something more productive.
- Reduce the time spent on non-critical work. Things like inserting Bible text into sermons or automatically generating slides fall into this category. The social media posts you mentioned could be thought of like this, too.
- Stimulate your thinking when you're at a dead end (or is it only me that has dead ends?). Perhaps you've ground to a halt thinking of a quote that would make this great point come alive. Or perhaps what you really need are some ideas for an illustration that would help the congregation to apply this truth to their lives. Do you want a copy/paste illustration? I know I don't. But could seeing a few different ideas stimulate you to think of a related illustration that perfectly fits your message and your flock? That's sometimes been my experience.
The things we're trying to do could make aspects of sermon preparation easier and quicker. Not so you can sit on the beach with a piña colada, but so you can reinvest that time into getting an even deeper understanding of the text, or spend more time in prayer, or apply the text more appropriate to your congregation. The overall process shouldn't be easy. But we're dedicated to making some parts of the process easier so you can spend more time on what really matters.
Thanks for your response, Mark. I agree with your disagreement!!
Of course, I do want some aspects of the sermon-writing process to be easier and quicker. That's why I use Logos!!
I guess I'm hesitant about making it so easy that I barely have to use any of the awesome tools in Logos to dig into the text and do some deep thinking myself.
On balance, that's probably more to do with the user than the tool.
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Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
DAL - this is exactly my point. You ask for (the bolding is mine) - "similar to a fully functional Microsoft Word document but with other enhancements"....
From best estimates, Microsoft Word is now 50 MILLION lines of code. And your request, with features that are very valid from a user perspective, enhance Word! This will NEVER happen to the satisfaction of users that would want to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Word was equal to, or greater in lines of code than Logos! It's very easy to underestimate "it's just a word processor, how hard could that be...."
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Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
DAL - this is exactly my point. You ask for (the bolding is mine) - "similar to a fully functional Microsoft Word document but with other enhancements"....
From best estimates, Microsoft Word is now 50 MILLION lines of code. And your request, with features that are very valid from a user perspective, enhance Word! This will NEVER happen to the satisfaction of users that would want to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Word was equal to, or greater in lines of code than Logos! It's very easy to underestimate "it's just a word processor, how hard could that be...."
That’s where you are wrong because Accordance already has a lot of the things I’ve asked for; so I find it hard to believe that Logos cannot at least match Accordance with those functionalities.
DAL
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Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
DAL - this is exactly my point. You ask for (the bolding is mine) - "similar to a fully functional Microsoft Word document but with other enhancements"....
From best estimates, Microsoft Word is now 50 MILLION lines of code. And your request, with features that are very valid from a user perspective, enhance Word! This will NEVER happen to the satisfaction of users that would want to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Word was equal to, or greater in lines of code than Logos! It's very easy to underestimate "it's just a word processor, how hard could that be...."
That’s where you are wrong because Accordance already has a lot of the things I’ve asked for; so I find it hard to believe that Logos cannot at least match Accordance with those functionalities.
DAL
I believe programs, including Logos is only limited by the imagination of the programmers. In that regard, I agree with Dal.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
DAL - this is exactly my point. You ask for (the bolding is mine) - "similar to a fully functional Microsoft Word document but with other enhancements"....
From best estimates, Microsoft Word is now 50 MILLION lines of code. And your request, with features that are very valid from a user perspective, enhance Word! This will NEVER happen to the satisfaction of users that would want to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Word was equal to, or greater in lines of code than Logos! It's very easy to underestimate "it's just a word processor, how hard could that be...."
That’s where you are wrong because Accordance already has a lot of the things I’ve asked for; so I find it hard to believe that Logos cannot at least match Accordance with those functionalities.
DAL
Perhaps - but that's time and effort taken away from other things they could be working on. In my perfect world there would be much tighter integration between Logos, Word and PowerPoint.
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That’s where you are wrong because Accordance already has a lot of the things I’ve asked for; so I find it hard to believe that Logos cannot at least match Accordance with those functionalities.
Maybe but it's not Microsoft Word - and I was commenting on your assertion that Logos could develop a fully functional Microsoft Word plus enhancements. Accordance does not have that. Maybe offering Logos a suggestion that is more realistic toward what Accordance has, vs. what you suggested, might give them pause to consider it instead of laughing and hitting the delete button.
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theologically I don't know how one can understand the bible but not have it shape you?
Unfortunately, I see it frequently. There are those who read scripture as a love letter from God and those who read scripture as an ancient inspired manuscript to be decoded. Obviously, those are points on a continuum for which neither denomination nor education is a determinate.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think.... (which some people say I don't know how to do that).... we are seeing in this thread basically two streams of thought....
1. People who want Logos to almost, if not entirely, write their sermon for them --- whereby they give Logos a thought or theme and Logos does the rest. To this I don't agree with. Somehow, someway, God's word needs to be ours, in that we understand it thoroughly and completely, before we can teach it.
2. People who want to develop sermons and use Logos to help them do that. I am 100% in this camp. People in this camp would use Search, Exegetical Guide and such functions to help them in their understanding of the Scripture to be able to teach it.
Maybe I am seeing wrong??
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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2. People who want to develop sermons and use Logos to help them do that. I am 100% in this camp. People in this camp would use Search, Exegetical Guide and such functions to help them in their understanding of the Scripture to be able to teach it.
But we can already do this by using...Logos Bible Software. So...what is the point of a sermon editor?
So is there a third stream of thought?....allow an import of sermons written in Word that would maintain Word's formatting. After import, perhaps give the ability to add photos, pictures, illustrations, create powerpoints that can eventually be exported back to a file format out of Logos. Allow those that want to use the sermon/notes in Logos to do so. Allow those that need or want (for security) to export it out of Logos for preservation can do so. Those that want to publish or have some kind of organizational system of their notes/sermons...the sermon editor can do that too.
Oh and finally, change the name from sermon editor to Personal Bible Study editor.
OR...just continue to develop and/or use Personal Book Builder for your personal Bible study and sermon notes.
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After import, perhaps give the ability to add photos, pictures, illustrations, create powerpoints that can eventually be exported back to a file format out of Logos.
At least least this part of the thought can also all be done in Word.
allow an import of sermons written in Word that would maintain Word's formatting. After import, perhaps give the ability to add photos, pictures, illustrations, create powerpoints that can eventually be exported back to a file format out of Logos. Allow those that want to use the sermon/notes in Logos to do so. Allow those that need or want (for security) to export it out of Logos for preservation can do so. Those that want to publish or have some kind of organizational system of their notes/sermons...the sermon editor can do that too.
So what would be the value, ie what unique features would be used, for having it in Logos then, exactly? Just wondering!
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So what would be the value, ie what unique features would be used, for having it in Logos then, exactly? Just wondering!
Don: You are talking the language of a financial economist. I think it would be helpful for Mark Barnes to articulate what this new feature that they have in mind can do that people cannot do with Word & Powerpoint.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
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So what would be the value, ie what unique features would be used, for having it in Logos then, exactly? Just wondering!
I preach and do Bible studies directly from Logos. I have a surface pro and in Logos, the Bible(s) are on the left panel and my PBB Notes are in the right panel. So when I hover over Bible verses, the verse can be read. When I click on Bible Passages, the Bible(s) on the left panel open the passages. If I need to open a passage guide during a Bible study, I can do that. In my PBB, I can insert links to library material to enhance my study or teaching duirng a question and answer period. I use power point on a screen, but my sermon or Bible study notes in Logos. For me, it works great.
But one of the greatest value is that my notes are preserved in Word format, can be exported into a pdf...is basically preserved for decades to come. And I can pass on those notes in pdf or Word or other format to friends, family, people who could benefit from them but do not have Logos.
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1. People who want Logos to almost, if not entirely, write their sermon for them --- whereby they give Logos a thought or theme and Logos does the rest. To this I don't agree with. Somehow, someway, God's word needs to be ours, in that we understand it thoroughly and completely, before we can teach it.
For what its worth, here is my not-so-humble 2.5 cents! (an appropriate emoji to be added)
Originality in sermons is overhyped. I would rather have my pastor quote a great illustration that Spurgeon has used than an original illustration concocted by my pastor that doesn't help nail the message he is trying to get across.
What is important is that the message drives home a point (or points) that causes people in the pews to make even one permanent change in their life for the better. God is not sitting on His throne and grading pastors based on originality. What matters is how the sermon advances God's goal.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
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Originality in sermons is overhyped. I would rather have my pastor quote a great illustration that Spurgeon has used than an original illustration concocted by my pastor that doesn't help nail the message he is trying to get across.
I agree with that.
What is important is that the message drives home a point (or points) that causes people in the pews to make even one permanent change in their life for the better. God is not sitting on His throne and grading pastors based on originality. What matters is how the sermon advances God's goal.
Agreed - but for this to happen on any kind of consistent basis, I believe that the preacher must have internalized the message of Scripture before standing up to speak. Otherwise, the sermon is likely to come across as perfunctory and inauthentic, rather than heartfelt and sincere. I love tools that make it easier to prepare to present God's Word. But somewhere in the process we have to truly make the message our own if we're going to be effective in presenting it to others. I think that's the fear some have expressed - that we could become so reliant on the tools that we automate that critical internalization step out of the process.
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For what its worth, here is my not-so-humble 2.5 cents! (an appropriate emoji to be added)
Originality in sermons is overhyped
Hear Hear
I tell every congregation the first time we meet that if I start telling them something new it is probably wrong. I tell them that I am there to lead a revision session. I tell them that plagiarism is my middle name and virtually all I say will have been said by others before me in one form or another.
The saving grace is that a good deal of what I say will have been said by Jesus.
Logos is a plagiarist dream. ;-)
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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The saving grace is that a good deal of what I say will have been said by Jesus.
In my tradition, both the reader and the preacher see themselves as a (preferably) invisible conduit of God's word. An assistant pastor taught be that the greatest compliment a preacher can receive is for a parishioner to say in a few weeks how much a particular sermon affected them while not recalling who the preacher was.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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to Mark Barnes,
When you are you going to make your "commentary collections" into an official one? It's a shame that Logos doesn't have or ever think about making collections from all the books/resources that we have. Most people have 10k+ resources, and yet most people hardly touch or know anything about books they owned. It's a waste of "base packages".
We need to fix "collections" so we can use our library better.
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.... but how do I create a template of semons and keep re-using that template in Documents -> New-Sermon?
After clicking "New Sermon" in the Documents Panel, look at the bottom of the Sermon Builder that opens for the "choose a template" link, click it.
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.... but how do I create a template of semons and keep re-using that template in Documents -> New-Sermon?
After clicking "New Sermon" in the Documents Panel, look at the bottom of the Sermon Builder that opens for the "choose a template" link, click it.
Sorry to be so inept.... but I may not have the "resources" like you do because I don't see "Choose a Template" link that you talk about. Could you be a bit more specific? Thanks!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I may not have the "resources" like you do because I don't see "Choose a Template" link that you talk about.Available in L10 only in an empty sermon
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I may not have the "resources" like you do because I don't see "Choose a Template" link that you talk about.
Available in L10 only in an empty sermon
When did they put that there!! lol. I found it, finally. Sometimes my eyes are so sharp I just don't see! Thanks for pointing that out to me.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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