John's Christianity as breakaway sect

Is it true that John's form of Christianity was a breakaway sect from regular cult Christianity? I have been told that they needed to emphasise the distinction from them and their origin religion per a friend of mine. I know that their was a community of scribes in the Johannine tradition.

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MJ. Smith

First, you have to decide when Christianity was sufficiently unified to speak of "regular cult" ... then, you need to know what you mean by "break away". To the best of my knowledge, the orthodoxy of John's faith was never questioned. Nor have I ever seen anything that implied they considered themselves separate. I would be interested in knowing some sources for your friend's information. It could be interesting.

Christian Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1287999#Comment_1287999

The Jewish Christian church was headquartered in Jerusalem in the first century, while Gentile Christianity grew dispersed in the second century. Several local and provincial ancient church councils were convened during this period, and the judgments received differing degrees of support by different Christian sects. I do not think the orthodoxy of John's faith was questioned either. In the mid-2nd century CE, Christianity began a protracted process of identity development that would eventually lead to the establishment of a new, autonomous religion from Judaism. Initially, Christians were one of several Jewish communities spread throughout the Roman Empire. The second century CE saw a shift in demography, the establishment of institutional hierarchy, and the development of Christian doctrine. Break away to me is to cease and desist and to form their own ruling. I am interested too. I will return when I have more. I would like to know your perspectives on this as well. He did tell me this: "John's form of Christianity was of Jewish Christianity is a type of Christian thought expressing itself in forms borrowed from Judaism. The richness of the Johannine corpus makes tracing the outlines of Johannine Christianity challenging. Nonetheless, the records show a group of early followers of Jesus who, employing a plethora of biblical symbols, established themselves forcefully against the Jewish culture in which they originated. These Christians developed a great devotion to Jesus as the ultimate revelation of God's salvific purpose, and understood themselves to be in direct contact with him and each other. To see John is to see him of a new perspective of his own community."

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1288001#Comment_1288001

in forms borrowed from Judaism.

Just an FYI ... this phrase registered as a warning to question the author carefully. I would hold that Johannine Christianity inherited rather than borrowed from Judaism. When I am reading, it is small things like this that cause me to read with skepticism rather than suspending judgment until I've followed the full line of argument.

Christian Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1288026#Comment_1288026

That is what I thought as well. I questioned him. He said he used borrowed lightly to infer inherent heritage of Judaism to Christianity. He pointed me to these sources. I have been reading them. I do not see where his point is and how he comes to it.

Siegal, Michal Bar-Asher, Wolfgang Grünstäudl, and Matthew Thiessen, eds. Perceiving the other in ancient Judaism and early Christianity. Mohr Siebeck, 2017.

Gager, John G. "Jews, Christians and the Dangerous ones in Between." In Interpretation in Religion, pp. 249-257. Brill, 1992.

Davies, W.D. The Territorial Dimension of Judaism. Berkley and Los Angeles, California: University of California Press, 1982.

D. Moody Smith, "Judaism and the Gospel of John" in James H. Charlesworth, ed. Jews and Christians: Exploring the Past, Present, and Future (New York: Crossroad: 1990): 76-96.

Ehrman, Bart D. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction. 5th edition. New York: Oxford University Press, 2012

McGrath, James F., "Johannine Christianity: Jewish Christianity?" Koinonia / (1996): 1-20. Available at https://digitalcommons.butler.edu/facsch_papers/14

Labahn, Michael. “Literary Sources of the Gospel and Letters of John” in The Oxford Handbook of Johannine Studies. ed. by Judith M. Lieu and Martinus C. de Boer. Print Publication Date: Jul 2018

Lieu, Judith. “Anti-Judaism in the Fourth Gospel: Explanation and Hermeneutics.” in Anti-Judaism and the Fourth Gospel. ed by Bieringer, R, Didier Pollefeyt, and F Vandecasteele-Vanneuville. Louisville, Ky.: Westminster John Knox Press, 2001, 101-117

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1288344#Comment_1288344

Hmm ... I would have expected at least some of the following:

Raymond E. Brown's The Community of the Beloved Disciple: The Life, Loves and Hates of an Individual Church in New Testament Times which if I remember correctly, emphasizes the Johannine community as struggling with both Judaism and other Christian groups but not really a break away.
J. Louis Martyn's History & theology in the Fourth Gospel may include the theory of the Johannine community being expelled from the synagogue earlier than other Christian groups

I know there are other scholars who see the Johannine community as having more conflict that some other groups ... but my mind is drawing a blank after these. But I'm still batting zero in terms of scholars suggesting an actual schism.

Christian Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1288349#Comment_1288349

Yes. I was expecting Brown, Martyn and Richard Bauckham. If you have some good points on this topic to further my research please post.