Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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Donnie said:
I would also assume that others who would otherwise purchase Logos as a gift for someone would also be hesitant to instead pay for a subscription.
I purchased Logos 10 Fundamentals for two young men in our church as a gift this last Christmas, so that they could use it to grow in their spiritual study. I have no doubt that they will have access to everything purchased for a long time. If either of these two young men grow in their spiritual journey to the point that a Logos subscription would be beneficial for them, I would have no qualms about purchasing subscriptions for them. I have purchased magazine subscriptions many times through the last 50 years as gifts for other people. I currently purchase digital media subscriptions as gifts for my wife. While her media subscriptions do not give her ownership, she has access to far more things than I could ever afford to purchase on their own.
It is certainly true that digital subscriptions are different from paper media subscriptions, but surely both types of subscriptions would be giftable.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Sam Shelton said:
It is certainly true that digital subscriptions are different from paper media subscriptions, but surely both types of subscriptions would be giftable.
With paper media subscription, you keep the paper media you received during the subscription period ...
What do you keep after your subscription period of the Logos software from what you received during that period? You might keep certain documents exported other formats or printed, memories of what you learned during your study sessions using the software, etc.It boils down to determining if what is offered in a subscription meets what one would like to achieve and do...
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Christopher Esget said:
Can we be certain that this is simply about generating more profit? I suspect it could be about a more stable revenue flow.
I like the idea of renting a library. There are many reference books I can’t afford to own. I would certainly pay to access a great physical library, I see this as similar. With streaming music services, one pays to rent their catalog. I would absolutely pay to rent the Logos “catalog.” Let’s give them a chance before writing them off.
The stable revenue flow is a very useful side-effect, but in my experience in chartered accounting practice and as a Finance Director, no company moves to a subscription basis without expecting to enhance its profit.
I may be prepared to pay to access a great physical library I don't own - I just don't want to have to pay to be assured of ongoing access to the great digital library that I already own because the rules have been changed on me.
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Donnie said:
Additionally, I would also wonder how it might effect Logos being gifted to others. From a personal example, I setup a Logos account for a young man from church, adding all the free books to it as they come. He uses it on his phone. I had always planned on buying him a package upon him graduating from high school. But I would never consider buying him a subscription.
This is a very good point: when I built up my library, I received assurance from Logos that on my death, I would be able to bequeath my Logos program and data to a family member or seminarian - no strings attached. With the proposed changes, some strings have been added.
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I understand the need for a workable revenue model to fund new development and costly infrastructure. To be frank, the wording of the announcement probably contributed to the confusion we are seeing.
My hope is that, should they choose to use a subscription-only model going forward, they would provide a grace period to allow users who want to own the resources (Sermon Builder, Timeline, etc.) the opportunity to purchase them (i.e. purchase the Full Feature Upgrade). Presumably, that would allow those users to have a stable, downloadable "snapshot" app that they could use going forward without a subscription. I'm not sure if that would mean they would need to install all of the software, resources, and owned content on every device, should those owned things only be accessible via the cloud (with a subscription) going forward.
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
It boils down to determining if what is offered in a subscription meets what one would like to achieve and do...
This is so true. My magazine subscriptions of the past were more for use at the time of delivery, were certainly not saved, and have been long gone. Others may have saved their magazines through the years. Most of the books that I received through book subscriptions I would have preferred to keep, but most were lost in a house fire a few years ago (what a blessing my Logos library has become).
As far as music is concerned, I still have some old albums, 8-tracks and cassettes in storage (and so protected from the fire) that I could bring out, but it is certainly easier to use a music subscription. Certainly, we are all individuals though and any subscriptions we may have used over the years will hopefully have met the needs or desires of each individual user.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Mike Heavin said:
that would allow those users to have a stable, downloadable "snapshot" app that they could use going forward without a subscription.
That would indeed be a good and appropriate solution: except that Microsoft / Apple / Google update their operating systems from time to time, and sooner or later you will find Logos breaks. You could buy a device and "freeze it" to use only for Logos, but that probably means disconnecting from the internet to avoid updates / viruses etc, and issues may still arise or the device go kaput.
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While no one can predict the future, I see no reason to not trust Logos when they say that our libraries will always be available, along with free upgrades to the basic software in order to use those libraries.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Sam Shelton said:
While no one can predict the future, I see no reason to not trust Logos when they say that our libraries will always be available, along with free upgrades to the basic software in order to use those libraries.
Hi Sam,
I certainly hope so brother, but experience with software leaves an uneasy feeling: it is easy to envisage something like this:
Over time the subscription base builds as new users, who haven't invested in large libraries / feature sets come on board, making the "older" non-subscription users less critical to the company; the Logos software platform develops; the advantages of cloud computing becomes "overwhelming" and limited development resources are deemed better allocated to the cloud product to generate income rather than the legacy product. Sooner or later, development - and even maintenance releases become less attractive, and so it stops.
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Brian said:
I certainly hope so brother, but experience with software leaves an uneasy feeling:
Brian,
I do understand that concern, and it is certainly not without merit when we look at some actions by other companies in the past. That being said, as it is right now, I trust Logos. Whether through purchase (which I prefer) or subscription, I will continue to use Logos, as long as it aids me in the use of the library that I have purchased from them.
If on the other hand, if sometime in the future, Logos does declare a move away from supporting our purchases, and I can no longer use it to support the products that I have purchased — I would have to walk away.
I have to say though, that I do not see that occurring in any immediate future and I hope that this incredibly long thread, with opinions from all over the spectrum, will help to remind Logos of the importance of continuing to support their long-term customers and the products that they have purchased.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Sam Shelton said:
I have to say though, that I do not see that occurring in any immediate future and I hope that this incredibly long thread, with opinions from all over the spectrum, will help to remind Logos of the importance of continuing to support their long-term customers and the products that they have purchased.
Amen Sam!
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Definitely not interested in subscription packages. This is where my journey with logos will end.
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diederick pütter said:
Definitely not interested in subscription packages. This is where my journey with logos will end.
You certainly have that right of course. I for one, will continue to use Logos for as long as I can, whether through subscription or not. If subscription allows me to have the ability to study deeper and quicker, aiding me in using my time wisely as I prepare for all my ministry, I will indeed find a way to pay for the subscription. If down the road, my ministry slows to the point that I am doing more personal study only, I may not need the subscription. One thing that I am not going to do is throw these thousands of dollars’ worth of books into the recycle bin. For me at least, doing so would make me a poor steward of the tools that God has given me.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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I agree with you, Sam
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Yours is one of the more reasoned responses to this never-ending thread. I keep coming back just to see if anything more is officially posted. Logos support should just cap this thread and open another when there is something more to announce.
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Yours is one of the more reasoned responses to this never-ending thread. I keep coming back just to see if anything more is officially posted. Logos support should just cap this thread and open another when there is something more to announce.
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Yours is one of the more reasoned responses to this never-ending thread. I keep coming back just to see if anything more is officially posted. Logos support should just cap this thread and open another when there is something more to announce.
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Yours is one of the more reasoned responses to this never-ending thread. I keep coming back just to see if anything more is officially posted. Logos support should just cap this thread and open another when there is something more to announce.
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Yours is one of the more reasoned responses to this never-ending thread. I keep coming back just to see if anything more is officially posted. Logos support should just cap this thread and open another when there is something more to announce.
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Yours is one of the more reasoned responses to this never-ending thread. I keep coming back just to see if anything more is officially posted. Logos support should just cap this thread and open another when there is something more to announce.
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Yours is one of the more reasoned responses to this never-ending thread. I keep coming back just to see if anything more is officially posted. Logos support should just cap this thread and open another when there is something more to announce.
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Thanks, Bruce and Kevin.
I also agree with you Kevin that it would be a good idea to go ahead and cap this thread as it has 48 pages with 956 posts. It does appear to be repetitious with most every idea having been shared at one time or another.
I would also say thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts in this thread about something that we all find very important to us — the future of Logos.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Respectfully, to cap this thread would run contrary to one of its primary purposes - to elicit user feedback. They want people to have a place to express their opinions, thoughts, and concerns, and this is a great place to do that. Supposedly, every response is being read and considered. That being said, I agree that this thread is no longer an area where significant information can be efficiently communicated. For that it's simply too long.
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Aaron,
I agree with you about the importance of user feedback, but I have read every post in this thread and now it is so long that I have trouble keeping up with what I have posted, much less others. As you say, Logos staff are likely reading and considering each response and maybe it is easier for Logos staff to have the majority of these posts in one place. One thing that I do find awesome is that through nearly 1000 posts, with many of them very heartfelt and very direct, the general demeanor has remained civil. I think that speaks volumes about this forum community as a whole.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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I've been reading this thread since day one and have posted since the third page. I've noticed that many people are rushing to assume something that hasn't been said at any point:
(1) we will lose access to libraries already purchased;
(2) not being able to buy more books;
(3) no longer being able to buy packages as before;
(4) losing software support or updates.
None of this was put forward as Faithlife's intention. In fact, practically all of these points have been denied in advance since Mark's first post. What the new subscriptions will replace are the existing subscriptions as stated in Mark's first post: "The subscription will have several tiers and eventually replace Preaching Suite, Faithlife Connect, and other Logos feature sets."
I think what's really happening is that many are disappointed that the AI features won't be available in a perpetual package for everyone. I was too. On the other hand, I understand that it's something that involves costs paid to third parties, which makes a perpetual sale impossible. And AI tools are still evolving on a monthly or weekly basis, which would be impossible to keep up with without a monthly cost subsidy.
I can understand that. And if I understand that the tools are really good and useful in ministry and I can spare the coffee and snacks away from home to subscribe, I will. And that won't discourage me from buying packages periodically when they are released.
What could happen to me is that I opt for cheaper packages to offset the cost of the subscription and it would be great if Faithlife offered an extra discount for subscribers. There are several companies that offer special discounts for subscribers (Amazon is a familiar example).
For example, if enhancements or early features that we have access to via subscription become an integral part of a package, it would be fair if subscribers could receive the feature at no extra cost when purchasing a package. For example, let's suppose that the function to activate and deactivate dark/light mode without having to restart the program, which for the time being is only available by subscription, comes to be sold as part of a lifetime license in a package. If subscribers have financed this feature in advance through the subscription, I think it would be fair to receive this feature permanently (or get a good discount) when the package is released annually or biannually. Of course, you'd have to see how long the person has been a subscriber for, etc.
So here's a tip for Faithlife!
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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Anderson Abreu said:
I think what's really happening is that many are disappointed that the AI features won't be available in a perpetual package for everyone
A primary concern expressed by many users is that non-AI feature upgrades will no longer be available to those who are unwilling to subscribe. This is an extremely valid concern and has not been definitively decided or announced by the company one way or the other. For many users, their future with Logos hangs in the balance, because at least for the time being they are unwilling to subscribe but still want to have the assurance of purchasing non-AI features in the future if they so choose.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
A primary concern expressed by many users is that non-AI feature upgrades will no longer be available to those who are unwilling to subscribe.
I understand that this is also a legitimate concern. The Mark exposes this issue at this point in the first post:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
But these points emphasize that the focus, beyond AI tools, is on giving early access to improvements and tools and getting feedback before releasing packages for sale:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:- [...]
- It allows us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for a major release every two years. That’s especially important at a time of rapid technological change.
- It allows us to include features like AI, which we can’t offer permanent licenses to because of the significant ongoing costs.
- It’s a sustainable way of ensuring we can keep delivering improvements for decades to come.
- Releasing early and often significantly shortens the feedback loop, enabling us to continually tweak our improvements to ensure they’re really solving the most important things for all our customers.
So, based on the first post I don't see it being on the radar to stop selling new features in packages as long as they are not features that involve constant costs such as improvements, support and third-party services.
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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Anderson Abreu said:
based on the first post I don't see it being on the radar to stop selling new features in packages as long as they are not features that involve constant costs such as improvements, support and third-party services.
I understand how you might arrive at that conclusion. Frankly, that is what's so baffling about all of this. It seems like the obvious conclusion that they would continue to offer purchase options for users, especially after so many have pushed for it. This makes the fact that they have refused to confirm future feature purchase options very frustrating for some. While I sincerely hope that you are correct about the continuation of feature purchase options, I can confirm based on multiple statements that the possibility of no longer selling new features is definitely being considered.
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Thanks for the update on the future of Logos. Since I like to work offline and the AI features are not that important to me, I would prefer the non-AI features to be released as new versions every two years as before. So I would like to have two versions of Logos: The first version is the normal Logos permanent license you can buy. And the other is the subscription version. It's perfectly understandable that KI features can't be released in permanent licenses, but every other feature can. Also with permanent licenses you can skip one or more versions before buying the next one if you have a smaller budget. That's why I like the permanent versions.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Thanks for the feedback.
The original post intended to say, "In the next version of Logos, we're going to be leaning heavily into subscription for these five reasons, but we don't yet know whether we're going to lean into subscription exclusively."
And I completely understand your points about the past. Honestly, that's a big part of the reason why I'm saying, "We're listening before we decide what to do." I don't want to announce a major change without consultation and then have to come back a week later saying, "We got it wrong." I'd much rather say, "This is the roughly the direction we're heading in. But of the things that might change, which are especially important to you?"
Thanks for clarifying. It might be good to edit the original post, since the only way to find this answer at present is to comb through four pages of dialogue.
If you are looking for feedback:
1. Please DON'T go to a subscription-only model. I say that, even though I realize that if a non-subscription method remains as just a vestige in the Logos marketing plan, it's likely to be so unattractive that everyone eventually shifts over.
2. I think it's great that you're incorporating AI features. PLEASE provide an option for the user to purge all AI data and start fresh. Naturally I don't yet know what user data your AI will be relying-on, but I'm rather certain Logos doesn't have the budget to create something really secure enough to house the kind of data that more-advanced AI systems harvest in order to do their jobs.
3. Quite honestly its disappointing. I'm sure its easier to run the business with a steadier income-stream, and I understand the concerns with licensing AI, but there are other ways of dealing with that, and there are all kinds of reasons why a subscription model is less advantageous for customers like me. Frankly there's a strong incongruity with the idea that I buy access to books in perpetuity, but the features I need to access them are only available to me on a month-to-month basis. I invested big money in the software thinking of the rest of my life. I would never have chosen Logos if I'd known this was coming down the pike in just a few years.
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Anderson Abreu said:
I've been reading this thread since day one and have posted since the third page. I've noticed that many people are rushing to assume something that hasn't been said at any point:
(1) we will lose access to libraries already purchased;
(2) not being able to buy more books;
(3) no longer being able to buy packages as before;
(4) losing software support or updates.
Numbers 1-3 have been denied. Number 4 on your list was confirmed as a consideration on page 4 of the thread:
[quote]
The original post intended to say, "In the next version of Logos, we're going to be leaning heavily into subscription for these five reasons, but we don't yet know whether we're going to lean into subscription exclusively."
In other words, they are very likely nixing the existence of one-time-purchase software licenses. No income stream on the product necessarily means no on-going support. Further, it's only a matter of time before Logos 10 is no longer supported by new versions of Windows/IOS, and then those who don't subscribe will be left with no options.
I for one am happy for features like AI to be available by subscription only. If it proves useful I might even subscribe.
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Bill Coley said:Jim Dean said:
I’ve heard Daniel Norwood (and some others?) suggest that some kind of “credit” system, or “lease to buy” system, so that people could stop renting / subscribing at a given point, and then buy the features as a perpetual ownership addition to the Logos 10 platform we have now -- they’ve suggested this might be a reasonable alternative or bridge.
The company that develops the RAW image editing software I use last year instituted a subscription/perpetual license hybrid model that has generated less heat than would have one rooted in subscriptions only. FWIW, here's an outline:
- SUBSCRIPTIONS are available at monthly or annual rates, the annual rate offering a 38% saving over the monthly rate x 12.
- PERPETUAL LICENSES, at full price, are always available, but are eligible only for bug fixes (what informally are called "point releases"). For example, a customer who buys release 14.3 receives without charge all releases numbered 14.3.x, but must pay the full perpetual license fee again to receive the features and functionality of version 14.4, 14.5, etc.
- The interesting addition to the model is what the company describes as the "off ramp" it builds into its subscription plan. Each consecutive full subscription year creates for its holder an additional 20% discount off the price of a perpetual license. That is, after one year of a subscription, a customer may purchase a perpetual license for whatever release is then-current at 20% off the full price; after two consecutive subscription years, said discount rises to 40%. Each successive year then adds 20% to the discount so that after five consecutive years as a subscriber, a customer receives a perpetual license for the then-current release at no charge (with the same "point release" limitations as reported above).
I dislike subscriptions intensely, but I find value in this hybrid model. As a result, I have a perpetual license to the last version the company released under its previous model, and I now subscribe 1) because I bought new perpetual licenses every year previously, so the annual expense was already in my budget; and 2) I like the "off ramp" to a free perpetual license after five years.
Could something resembling this model work for Logos?
I really like this idea.
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I like your hybrid idea. I think it's the best of all worlds. On the one hand, it preserves package sales periodically (every two years or annually) for those who don't want a subscription; and, on the other hand, it values and encourages those who opt for subscriptions to get the new features earlier.
Joey Midgett said:The interesting addition to the model is what the company describes as the "off ramp" it builds into its subscription plan. Each consecutive full subscription year creates for its holder an additional 20% discount off the price of a perpetual license. That is, after one year of a subscription, a customer may purchase a perpetual license for whatever release is then-current at 20% off the full price; after two consecutive subscription years, said discount rises to 40%. Each successive year then adds 20% to the discount so that after five consecutive years as a subscriber, a customer receives a perpetual license for the then-current release at no charge (with the same "point release" limitations as reported above).
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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I can't agree with your statement or assumption:
hc said:In other words, they are very likely nixing the existence of one-time-purchase software licenses. No income stream on the product necessarily means no on-going support. Further, it's only a matter of time before Logos 10 is no longer supported by new versions of Windows/IOS, and then those who don't subscribe will be left with no options.
First, because this was in fact denied in the first post and in a reply from Mark on page 4 of this thread. See:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:So yes, we will continue to update our software, for free, to run on future operating systems, so that you can continue to enjoy the books you have bought.
Another reason is that Faithlife has in recent years made the software engine available for free to access the books and tools you have purchased. When new features are released, they are only made available in Logos to those who purchase an upgrade. I remember this happening with the sermon builder (from the first version), canvas, calendar, automatic translator, factbook etc. Faithlife can keep the basic software common to all users updated to run on recent systems, as promised, and target new improvements or functionalities to subscribers or purchasers of future packages. It has already done this over the years.
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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I don't know if it's just me, but when I click on the "Last >>" button to jump to the last page of the topic, I'm redirected to the home page. I'm having to edit the browser link to the last page number to get straight to it. Is this happening to anyone else?
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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Anderson Abreu said:
I don't know if it's just me, but when I click on the "Last >>" button to jump to the last page of the topic, I'm redirected to the home page. I'm having to edit the browser link to the last page number to get straight to it. Is this happening to anyone else?
Yes, most of the time the Last link brings me to the original post
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Joey Midgett said:
I dislike subscriptions intensely, but I find value in this hybrid model. As a result, I have a perpetual license to the last version the company released under its previous model, and I now subscribe 1) because I bought new perpetual licenses every year previously, so the annual expense was already in my budget; and 2) I like the "off ramp" to a free perpetual license after five years.
Could something resembling this model work for Logos?
Yes Please.
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Anderson Abreu said:
I can't agree with your statement or assumption:
hc said:In other words, they are very likely nixing the existence of one-time-purchase software licenses. No income stream on the product necessarily means no on-going support. Further, it's only a matter of time before Logos 10 is no longer supported by new versions of Windows/IOS, and then those who don't subscribe will be left with no options.
First, because this was in fact denied in the first post and in a reply from Mark on page 4 of this thread. See:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:So yes, we will continue to update our software, for free, to run on future operating systems, so that you can continue to enjoy the books you have bought.
Another reason is that Faithlife has in recent years made the software engine available for free to access the books and tools you have purchased. When new features are released, they are only made available in Logos to those who purchase an upgrade. I remember this happening with the sermon builder (from the first version), canvas, calendar, automatic translator, factbook etc. Faithlife can keep the basic software common to all users updated to run on recent systems, as promised, and target new improvements or functionalities to subscribers or purchasers of future packages. It has already done this over the years.
Many of us can't agree with your view on this and Faithlife has been vague, silent or contradictory to the issue.... Sometimes carefully worded as in that quote from Mark - notice it says that you will continue to enjoy the books you have bought.... What about the Full Feature Sets that we spent a good dollar amount on under the marketing that they are ours to keep FOREVER?
I have requested that the marketing be more transparent and honestly truthful, rather than misleading as advertised here: https://www.logos.com/ways-to-upgrade
History proves out that we no longer have access to features that were paid for, but deprecated and in some cases repackaged under a new name and sold as part of an upgrade....
Based on Mark's response to my question - it also affirms that we will not always have access to our features....
Frank Sauer said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???
If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.
I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.
So you will own and have access to the feature "forever" - OR until they upgrade it or change the name and possibly resell it to you like Sermon File and the Sermon importer which seems to be its renamed version!
They advertise that you own the Feature forever but then do not honor that advertising - very unethical! "Four years of great value" is not the promise they make nor that they advertise....
So it's bad enough they are continuing with the false advertising, but now the possibility remains that we WILL indeed be forced to subscribe IF they do not offer the perpetual license.... How do I come to that conclusion? If the features we own are improved and the only access we have is via subscription - that is forcing a user to subscribe to continue using the features they purchased but were improved.... Unless there will be dual engines continually supported, one that is maintained to allow users continual access to their purchased features without need to upgrade and the "Pro" subscription model for those that do subscribe - I don't see that happening, as it has not happened in the past and sounds like it would hinder sustainability not help it.
Mark's statement about the four years of great value show Faithlife's attitude about their promise of "Forever" - in their eyes four years equals forever... At least until they clarify otherwise, but again history is not on their side....
Some of us were willing to look past the misleading advertising and pay for "improved" and renamed features to help support the company. However, taking advantage of customers in that way and then potentially forcing them into subscriptions for continued access is unethical and needs to not be glossed over.
The silence on this major issue and carefully worded polls and posts has done NOTHING to address the concern of the many! Many of whom are long term invested customers - this AGAIN - should not be such a difficult action item.... Offering both perpetual and subscription is the broadest customer base, yet long term customers as myself are told I have to wait until the Fall to find out if I will continue to have the option to purchase...
So, to all those that continue to post "pro" Faithlife posts about assumptions being made.... Please realize that due to the vague wording, contradictory responses and being told we will know in the Fall - any view on this situation is assumption. That is not any of the forum users fault, it is solely on Faithlife for not being ready with clarity, decisiveness and direction for its customer base. Gathering feedback and acting on it should not be this complicated - six months or so, depending on what is meant by "this fall" is far to long to brush off a strong customer base.
I hope that they make the decision to provide both options and that the perpetual option is not so overpriced with a goal fo forcing subscriptions that they show the care for the many users that have made clear subscription is not an option for them. I hope they actually do listen and respond fairly to this long term customer base, but as I have said numerous times, they are losing substantial revenue in prepub cancellations and sales from those of us not purchasing further until we know our future with the product....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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This reminds me so much of Lifeway who had several nice software packages in the past (Wordsearch for example) and then divested themselves of it. Just not sure I like the direction this is headed although I can see a money savings IF this new Pro package contains ALL of my current library. That could be cheaper than upgrading to the next version every couple of years. I just have concerns I hope can be answered.
Several questions:
- If I subscribe and get updated datasets and then stop paying a subscription fee, do I lose those updates?
- If I subscribe, is my current package replaced by the Propackage.
- If I unscubscribe in a year or two, do I have to reinstall my current package (Logos Gold)?
- Will my current package, Logos Gold, that still be available for download with its entire library should I get a new PC and need to reinstall all my software?
Jesse
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Jesse Barnhart said:
This reminds me so much of Lifeway who had several nice software packages in the past (Wordsearch for example) and then divested themselves of it. Just not sure I like the direction this is headed although I can see a money savings IF this new Pro package contains ALL of my current library. That could be cheaper than upgrading to the next version every couple of years. I just have concerns I hope can be answered.
Several questions:
- If I subscribe and get updated datasets and then stop paying a subscription fee, do I lose those updates?
- If I subscribe, is my current package replaced by the Propackage.
- If I unscubscribe in a year or two, do I have to reinstall my current package (Logos Gold)?
- Will my current package, Logos Gold, that still be available for download with its entire library should I get a new PC and need to reinstall all my software?
Jesse
Response to Number 1 - this as currently understood would be YES you would no longer have access to "Pro" Features if you stop subscribing. There have been multiple comments and suggestions that Faithlife offer some form of purchase option for those that have subscribed and choose to cancel, as well as those of us continuing the push for traditional perpetual license purchase options - but no concrete direction has been released as of yet.
Response to Number 2 - As of now, we keep our libraries/packages and whatever is added via the "Pro" subscription would be a temporary addition to your features and books that would cease when you stop subscribing.
Response to Number 3 - You shouldn't have to reinstall, unless someone from Faithlife says otherwise. You would just lose access to the "Pro" features and books when the licenses sync
Response to Number 4 - As of today, it has always worked this way, you should have continued access
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Jesse Barnhart said:
- If I subscribe and get updated datasets and then stop paying a subscription fee, do I lose those updates?
- If I subscribe, is my current package replaced by the Propackage.
- If I unscubscribe in a year or two, do I have to reinstall my current package (Logos Gold)?
- Will my current package, Logos Gold, that still be available for download with its entire library should I get a new PC and need to reinstall all my software?
I was wondering myself what happens to features available only via subscription if one cancels the subscription at a later time. It seems like the hybrid subscription model previously mentioned could handle this situation. Thanks everyone for your patience, both Logos users and staff.
Philippians 4:4-5a
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Thanks, Frank.
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To be honest I am a bit dismayed by all this. I am already a subscriber to Faithlife Connect. Now another subscription. And on top of that all but 15 of the 430 books I already have in my library - how is that right if I am to pay for another sub?
Anyhow, having been with Logos since before 1999 and $30k+ of expenditure later, I might now be thinking of going elsewhere and sell-up (if even possible after this stunt). You do not inspire confidence that sometime down the road you will not also give subscriptions to other books as you are doing with the 430 books already available and devalue what I have spent these last 25 years with you doing.
Clearly jumping on the AI and subscription model has been too tempting to resist. I think avarice has taken over and Logos has lost its way.
I've enjoyed the later Logos versions and ideas with the sermon manager and sermon template. They were good ideas. I imported all 2000+ sermons and now... Logos has become much more complicated then in the days when I simply used the exegetical and passage guides.
Not all progress is good. No longer will there be depth to sermons or academia because of reading for ourselves. Now it is all summarised into pithy statements which will be used in university papers.
Technology has helped a great deal with having all our books in one place and searching. Logos has streamlined what took probably 40x times as long in the past. So, I am not against that. But undermining with AI, the 'panacea' that lacks any of the Spirit's moving in our hearts. Souless is the result.
Frankly, I need convincing it is worth staying. I do not like where you're heading.
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I agree. Far too vague and far too uncertain. Over 25 years of being with Logos and now I am looking to see if I can sell out before they devalue everything through subscription models.
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Rev. Ian M. Thomas said:
I agree. Far too vague and far too uncertain. Over 25 years of being with Logos and now I am looking to see if I can sell out before they devalue everything through subscription models.
Patience, Ian. The current AI subscription is just an early access ... they plan to combine and re-structure this fall. And they're well aware of their customers ... early discussion allowed considerable comment!
And you (we) just don't know what'll be the offer. Some of the past offers have been quite attractive. I'm not a subscriber person and don't plan to, but many are ... could turn out well. Apparently, the hoped for revenue already has dreams of app fixes by staff.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Rev. Ian M. Thomas said:
I agree. Far too vague and far too uncertain. Over 25 years of being with Logos and now I am looking to see if I can sell out before they devalue everything through subscription models.
Sadly, the vague and silent nature of direction in regards to the overwhelming negative view that has been expressed in the forums thus far makes me wonder about Faithlife's intent.... When I'm told by Customer Service that we have to wait until "this fall" to find out about a continued perpetual license model being offered - I find it hard to not wonder if the mindset has shifted so drastically that they are trying to hold out as long as possible to allow the devaluation of our accounts.... I really do NOT want to think that way, but nothing thus far gives me any positive feeling from the response(s) and moreso the lack of response from Faithlife...
Last I checked, the BBB already has Logos at a B- and they will surely plummet further with this type of behavior...
All I keep hearing is that they are gathering feedback.... Well the feedback has been very clear and telling customers to wait another 5-6 months while forgoing potentially significant dollars in book and/or upgrade sales does not give comfort to those that are concerned....
I will continue to say that I hope they actually listen and continue to provide the traditonal option of purchase, while supplementing with subscription options - but the silence, the brush off until this fall and the fact that I have filled out the survey(s) a couple times while saying I'd like to be contacted about my concerns and hear nothing..... Not very refreshing.... Nothing like the Logos I supported for decades now.... Feels more like a "big" business just saying something to sound customer friendly.... Again, I hope I'm wrong - but thus far.... Allowing book and upgrade sales to fall through, allowing customers to go elsewhere without contact..... Wait until FALL????? Well.... must be that post Covid Customer Service that seems to be accepted as the norm...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Rev. Ian M. Thomas said:
Frankly, I need convincing it is worth staying. I do not like where you're heading.
Unfortunately, there is little that long-time, big-investment, large-library users can do at this point. It’s impractical to sell all those resources, and impractical to change the long-time habits and dependence on them that has naturally been engendered.
It’s up to whatever the new ownership chooses. It’s not up to us.However, whoever the owner is, it’s incorporated in the USA. If it turns out that they handle things in “bad faith” (legal not spiritual), and if millions of existing resource-owners (ie the perpetual license type) get trapped into using a non-subscription engine that gradually has its existing features eroded by subscription-only replacements, then there is clear cause for a class-action lawsuit.
Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.
We’ve read and parsed the “assurances” of the current leadership. We’ve discussed how features have disappeared or been replaced in the past. We’ve made it clear that this announcement has shaken our trust in the organization. So, we’ll just have to see how it shakes out this fall when they lay their cards on the table.
Hopefully, those of us who have spent tens of thousands of dollars will not at that point need to call attorneys. Let’s wait and see. And pray that faithfulness and trustworthiness will win out, over greed.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
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Jim Dean said:
Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.
Thank you, Jim, for this pithy statement of the issue.
And thanks Frank Sauer for your tenacity in keeping this thread going.
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Jim Dean said:
Unfortunately, there is little that long-time, big-investment, large-library users can do at this point.
Jim,
You, like all of us, certainly have the right to your opinion. I feel though that it is important to reiterate that not everyone shares your opinion.
While there are a number of people that have been using Logos longer than I have and have spent more money, I consider myself a long-time, big-investment, large-library user. I did not invest in Logos due to any promises of low price or free access. I invested in Logos because I find it to be the most usable and robust Bible study software available then or now.
Its continued existence as a tool that I can use in my Bible study is far more important to me than any slight, whether real or imagined, that might have occurred through the years. The use of this tool for my own spiritual growth, as well as the spiritual growth of those that I teach, is far more important than any monetary amount that I might be able to receive.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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scooter said:Jim Dean said:
Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.
Thank you, Jim, for this pithy statement of the issue.
And thanks Frank Sauer for your tenacity in keeping this thread going.
It's a fight I believe is worth it.... I value the investment many of us have made in Logos and being in this "universe" for 25 plus years there is an attachment. Hopefully the announcement that Customer Service told me is coming soon will show that all of us vocalizing our opinions mattered. If I didn't care about the product so much, I would have just threw the library up on ebay and went elsewhere.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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