Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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Well, if there is a way, we, the users, could buy it back. We can raise funds, buy it back, then appoint a gospel centered team. We can set up a non-for profit to continue to help fundraise and help the for profit side.
I have been a logos user since Logos 4. It's been a good run. Who knows what the future of Logos will be. It is certainly sad to read what's been happening, especially the last post.
At the end of the day, my brothers and sisters, we don't need software. We need the Holy Spirit. I primarily got Logos for the parallels. But to be honest, there are "free" parallels out there already. Many of the books Logos "publishes" are available in "Project Gutenberg" or in many other free libraries.
The happy compromise would be just like what everyone is saying: have the subscription model and have the purchase model. Those that have invested thousands of dollars (many are here) should be viewed as the core users. Trust me, dear VC and BD, these users are the most loyal userbase you'll find anywhere in the entire world. I have so much respect for them. But loyalty can only go so far. So I hope you find a compromise.
God bless everyone. God is good!
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Well, if there is a way, we, the users, could buy it back. We can raise funds, buy it back, then appoint a gospel centered team. We can set up a non-for profit to continue to help fundraise and help the for profit side.
I have been a logos user since Logos 4. It's been a good run. Who knows what the future of Logos will be. It is certainly sad to read what's been happening, especially the last post.
At the end of the day, my brothers and sisters, we don't need software. We need the Holy Spirit. I primarily got Logos for the parallels. But to be honest, there are "free" parallels out there already. Many of the books Logos "publishes" are available in "Project Gutenberg" or in many other free libraries.
The happy compromise would be just like what everyone is saying: have the subscription model and have the purchase model. Those that have invested thousands of dollars (many are here) should be viewed as the core users. Trust me, dear VC and BD, these users are the most loyal userbase you'll find anywhere in the entire world. I have so much respect for them. But loyalty can only go so far. So I hope you find a compromise.
God bless everyone. God is good!
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Well, if there is a way, we, the users, could buy it back. We can raise funds, buy it back, then appoint a gospel centered team. We can set up a non-for profit to continue to help fundraise and help the for profit side.
I have been a logos user since Logos 4. It's been a good run. Who knows what the future of Logos will be. It is certainly sad to read what's been happening, especially the last post.
At the end of the day, my brothers and sisters, we don't need software. We need the Holy Spirit. I primarily got Logos for the parallels. But to be honest, there are "free" parallels out there already. Many of the books Logos "publishes" are available in "Project Gutenberg" or in many other free libraries.
The happy compromise would be just like what everyone is saying: have the subscription model and have the purchase model. Those that have invested thousands of dollars (many are here) should be viewed as the core users. Trust me, dear VC and BD, these users are the most loyal userbase you'll find anywhere in the entire world. I have so much respect for them. But loyalty can only go so far. So I hope you find a compromise.
God bless everyone. God is good!
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Well, if there is a way, we, the users, could buy it back. We can raise funds, buy it back, then appoint a gospel centered team. We can set up a non-for profit to continue to help fundraise and help the for profit side.
I have been a logos user since Logos 4. It's been a good run. Who knows what the future of Logos will be. It is certainly sad to read what's been happening, especially the last post.
At the end of the day, my brothers and sisters, we don't need software. We need the Holy Spirit. I primarily got Logos for the parallels. But to be honest, there are "free" parallels out there already. Many of the books Logos "publishes" are available in "Project Gutenberg" or in many other free libraries.
The happy compromise would be just like what everyone is saying: have the subscription model and have the purchase model. Those that have invested thousands of dollars (many are here) should be viewed as the core users. Trust me, dear VC and BD, these users are the most loyal userbase you'll find anywhere in the entire world. I have so much respect for them. But loyalty can only go so far. So I hope you find a compromise.
God bless everyone. God is good!
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Well, if there is a way, we, the users, could buy it back. We can raise funds, buy it back, then appoint a gospel centered team. We can set up a non-for profit to continue to help fundraise and help the for profit side.
I have been a logos user since Logos 4. It's been a good run. Who knows what the future of Logos will be. It is certainly sad to read what's been happening, especially the last post.
At the end of the day, my brothers and sisters, we don't need software. We need the Holy Spirit. I primarily got Logos for the parallels. But to be honest, there are "free" parallels out there already. Many of the books Logos "publishes" are available in "Project Gutenberg" or in many other free libraries.
The happy compromise would be just like what everyone is saying: have the subscription model and have the purchase model. Those that have invested thousands of dollars (many are here) should be viewed as the core users. Trust me, dear VC and BD, these users are the most loyal userbase you'll find anywhere in the entire world. I have so much respect for them. But loyalty can only go so far. So I hope you find a compromise.
God bless everyone. God is good!
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It seems to me that the above chain of events reveal a common thread: Logos wants to move to a model which returns a higher profit to the company, and to its majority shareholder.
Interesting how differently people interpret the same limited information. I took the common thread to indicate Logos was extended too far from the core products that had kept it solvent and that Bob wisely chose to let "the experts" save it financially. This situation is not uncommon when software startups run by idea-men reach the point where ongoing solvency rather than creative new ventures becomes the primary issue.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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... if an existing user subscribes for 30 months at $20 per month, and then unsubscribed, s/he would lose access to all resources, etc. that s/he acquired during the 30 months, and revert to the version, features and resources that s/he owned before subscribing? I think that's what you're saying?
Not quite. You don't acquire - subscription only gives you access to its features and resources. After cancelling, you revert to whatever features and resources you own (you can still purchase books!). When you say "revert to the version....before subscribing" I can say it is not completely known that you would revert to the version of the features you bought, but you would not revert to an older version of Logos because:
- it has to be compatible with the books that you have purchased
- it has to be compatible with your operating system, and further
- FL will continue with free support and software upgrades because of your previous investment in books and features.
- the length of the subscription and book purchases are the only assets a new subscriber has in this situation, but it seems likely that some form of support and upgrades could be offered.
Pastors do not need to be locked in to a $20USD per month subscription which does not even secure permanent access to their licensed material.
Owners who chose not to subscribe will continue to have free support and upgrades.
BTW, as I come from Australia my $20 is only $14USD[:)]
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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what is this 20 USD subscription? Where have you found it?
Blessings in Christ.
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what is this 20 USD subscription? Where have you found it?
As far as I know, there is only one price ($9.99/month) and one tier (Pro) currently available. In the fall, Logos has indicated they might offer 4 tiers and pricing that will depend on whether one has the L10 full feature set. So, there might be 8+ pricing options available in the fall.
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what is this 20 USD subscription? Where have you found it?
I think it's just an illustrative example that Dave used at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1293958.aspx#1293958
It's not suggesting that $20 will be the price of any subscription level - we just don't know (or if we do, I've missed it!
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I have just a couple of questions for the moment, regarding the pricing of subscriptions later this year.
I wonder if Logos Now/Connect subscribers will be still able to upgrade to purchase the full feature set, in order to access a lower tier of subscription which would be available for those who have the full feature set and who would then be moving forward by taking out a subscription.
I also wonder if the full feature upgrade might be at a better discount then, than it is on offer at the moment.
Generally, although I hadn't intended to comment other than those points above, it is clear that there are very strongly held views on how the company is moving forward. My approach is to take the view that we're not in a perfect world, and that sometimes situations develop which we would prefer hadn't. But we are where we are. And I have full confidence in Mark Barnes presenting our interests within the company. The fact that this feedback has been requested is a case in point, which is also in keeping with the history of Logos/FL having a very interactive relationship with users. With all the feedback supplied already, I feel that Mark and others will make the best possible case for users, given the current situation that the company is in.
On subscriptions, for new Logos users the subscription option can be viewed as a very accessible way of getting started with Logos, without paying a lot of money up front. This would be similar to how the subscription model for Adobe allowed new graphic designers to get started with a much lower up-front cost than having to purchase the full-priced software for multiple programs under the previous purchase model. In terms of marketing, a low entry cost Logos subscription might open up the software to a whole new range of users, who otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford the high cost of getting started with a decent sized library. That could bode well for the longevity of the company. Although I'm towards the older end of the age spectrum, lower-cost subscriptions are what a younger generation generally tends to expect now, as far as I am aware.
On the other hand, for long term users, especially those with large libraries, a relatively high subscription cost would be very unattractive, since it would be effectively just giving such users continued access to the program features, as Logos Connect does at the moment, since they would likely have virtually all the bundled resources already. (Personally, I'm not interested in AI features - at least at the moment.) Instead, if there were a 'features only' subscription price for longer term users, I would be happy with that. If the lowest subscription level was similar but bundled a relatively small number of relatively lower cost books, where the subscription cost would be not that much different to a features-only subscription, I wouldn't quibble with that either.
One option that would make it easier to pay out for a subscription would be a subscriber's loyalty discount. For example, 5-10% discount for every year of subscribing. However, that would need to be capped at a certain amount of maximum discount (as it would be unfair to the company if it went down to 100% discount and users still expected to have access to new features indefinitely!). If existing long-term users had a head start on such a discount, that might ease moving to subscriptions too. Personally, in the absence of such sweeteners for long term users, especially those with large libraries or who had been subscribing already through Logos Now/Connect, I would consider purchasing the full feature set and not subscribing. Ultimately, the actual subscription prices would determine which way forward I would opt for.
Just a few thoughts.
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what is this 20 USD subscription? Where have you found it?
I think it's just an illustrative example that Dave used at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1293958.aspx#1293958
It's not suggesting that $20 will be the price of any subscription level - we just don't know (or if we do, I've missed it!
Illustrative only, which is why I made a joke about it being $AUD (Australian)
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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what is this 20 USD subscription? Where have you found it?
I think it's just an illustrative example that Dave used at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1293958.aspx#1293958
It's not suggesting that $20 will be the price of any subscription level - we just don't know (or if we do, I've missed it!
Illustrative only, which is why I made a joke about it being $AUD (Australian)
No offence intended, but I think you can see with all the uncertainty of all this, with a lot of people already on edge and frustrated and confused and the nearly 1000 posts in this thread are filled with lots of speculation, unless you work for Logos it's probably not the best idea to be throwing out prices, be it a joke or not. It just kind of adds to the general confusion.
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- This thread has obviously struck a chord and this is because many of us have felt an atypical commitment and affinity to Logos in a way that we don’t to other products or companies that we deal with. In short, we love Logos and feel a connection with the libraries that each of us have curated. Thank you for this fantastic tool.
- These questions have been put on the forum and user feedback has been elicited. I am very thankful for this opportunity and it is truly commendable if the sentiments expressed here actually make it to the ears of the decision makers. If this is the case, thank you for the continued conversation with the user base.
Well said, Chris. Some will want to take the plunge and subscribe. But I am one that would never ever consider doing that. I am happy with the Logos software I have bought. I am not especially interested in "new features" or AI. Anything that makes the information in Library more accessible would interest me, but not at the expense of a monthly fee.
Many people have larger Logos libraries, but I am approaching 10,000 resources. I will (hopefully) be able to continue to purchase books for my Logos library. But I will not rent a single book ever.
Chris is correct to point out that many of us "love Logos and feel a connection with the libraries that each of us have curated." There is a deep loyalty that we feel to Logos. We understand that Logos Bible Software must do what it takes to keep the company financially healthy. But I think there is going to be more resistance to monthly rental fees than is expected. Regardless, I wish Logos well. There is risk involved in such a move.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
But I will not rent a single book ever.
I've seen the 430 books, but I've only found one that I don't own, and that's not relevant to me. I am against renting books. I want to own the books I purchase as well as the features. That doesn't mean I don't subscribe. I may subscribe to the same amount as I have subscribed to Logos connect as long as it is useful to me. But I am not interested in renting or borrowing resources.
Blessings in Christ.
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Sad to say but it looks as though I'll be saving some money this year for a change, I always looked forward to the new version releases but a subscription doesn't appeal.
"We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates."
Purchasing for me is the only way forward.
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Absolutely right Mark.
The owners of Logos are interested in a subscription model for one reason only; the same reason other commercial software providers use it: to generate more profit. A side-effect of this may be faster rollout of updates / new features, but this is incidental.
One factor Logos are not attaching enough weight to is that unlike users of many commercial products, Logos users don't typically earn any income as a result of using their software: we use it to grow our faith and love of God and to share that with others in our parishes and communities. There's no money in it for us, so the regular expenditure to maintain a subscription cannot be justified. The company is applying a profit maximising approach to a customer base that that operates on a totally different paradigm.
Purchasing is the only way forward for me too. And if that means Logos 10 is deprecated and ultimately fails to work as it currently does due to OS changes, I will be justified in feeling ripped off.
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Absolutely right Mark.
The owners of Logos are interested in a subscription model for one reason only; the same reason other commercial software providers use it: to generate more profit. A side-effect of this may be faster rollout of updates / new features, but this is incidental.
One factor Logos are not attaching enough weight to is that unlike users of many commercial products, Logos users don't typically earn any income as a result of using their software: we use it to grow our faith and love of God and to share that with others in our parishes and communities. There's no money in it for us, so the regular expenditure to maintain a subscription cannot be justified. The company is applying a profit maximising approach to a customer base that that operates on a totally different paradigm.
Purchasing is the only way forward for me too. And if that means Logos 10 is deprecated and ultimately fails to work as it currently does due to OS changes, I will be justified in feeling ripped off.
Can we be certain that this is simply about generating more profit? I suspect it could be about a more stable revenue flow.
I like the idea of renting a library. There are many reference books I can’t afford to own. I would certainly pay to access a great physical library, I see this as similar. With streaming music services, one pays to rent their catalog. I would absolutely pay to rent the Logos “catalog.” Let’s give them a chance before writing them off.
Author of (Dis)ordered
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One factor Logos are not attaching enough weight to is that unlike users of many commercial products, Logos users don't typically earn any income as a result of using their software: we use it to grow our faith and love of God and to share that with others in our parishes and communities. There's no money in it for us, so the regular expenditure to maintain a subscription cannot be justified. The company is applying a profit maximising approach to a customer base that that operates on a totally different paradigm.
The other segment of the user base is one that does use it for their jobs as pastors, teachers, missionaries, etc. Those in vocational ministry are precisely the crowd who are typically underpaid (except for a select few within the teacher category) and who a subscription will be very hard on.
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One factor Logos are not attaching enough weight to is that unlike users of many commercial products, Logos users don't typically earn any income as a result of using their software: we use it to grow our faith and love of God and to share that with others in our parishes and communities. There's no money in it for us, so the regular expenditure to maintain a subscription cannot be justified. The company is applying a profit maximising approach to a customer base that that operates on a totally different paradigm.
The other segment of the user base is one that does use it for their jobs as pastors, teachers, missionaries, etc. Those in vocational ministry are precisely the crowd who are typically underpaid (except for a select few within the teacher category) and who a subscription will be very hard on.Additionally, I would also wonder how it might effect Logos being gifted to others. From a personal example, I setup a Logos account for a young man from church, adding all the free books to it as they come. He uses it on his phone. I had always planned on buying him a package upon him graduating from high school. But I would never consider buying him a subscription.
I would also assume that others who would otherwise purchase Logos as a gift for someone would also be hesitant to instead pay for a subscription. It would be kind of like buying them a really nice commentary set, knowing that they probably won't realize the usefulness and value of it at first, but one day they will, and it's a good investment in them. But if you knew they only had temporary access to it for 1 year, and you're not sure they would get a whole lot out of it right now, you might rethink that.
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I would also assume that others who would otherwise purchase Logos as a gift for someone would also be hesitant to instead pay for a subscription.
I purchased Logos 10 Fundamentals for two young men in our church as a gift this last Christmas, so that they could use it to grow in their spiritual study. I have no doubt that they will have access to everything purchased for a long time. If either of these two young men grow in their spiritual journey to the point that a Logos subscription would be beneficial for them, I would have no qualms about purchasing subscriptions for them. I have purchased magazine subscriptions many times through the last 50 years as gifts for other people. I currently purchase digital media subscriptions as gifts for my wife. While her media subscriptions do not give her ownership, she has access to far more things than I could ever afford to purchase on their own.
It is certainly true that digital subscriptions are different from paper media subscriptions, but surely both types of subscriptions would be giftable.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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It is certainly true that digital subscriptions are different from paper media subscriptions, but surely both types of subscriptions would be giftable.
With paper media subscription, you keep the paper media you received during the subscription period ...
What do you keep after your subscription period of the Logos software from what you received during that period? You might keep certain documents exported other formats or printed, memories of what you learned during your study sessions using the software, etc.It boils down to determining if what is offered in a subscription meets what one would like to achieve and do...
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Can we be certain that this is simply about generating more profit? I suspect it could be about a more stable revenue flow.
I like the idea of renting a library. There are many reference books I can’t afford to own. I would certainly pay to access a great physical library, I see this as similar. With streaming music services, one pays to rent their catalog. I would absolutely pay to rent the Logos “catalog.” Let’s give them a chance before writing them off.
The stable revenue flow is a very useful side-effect, but in my experience in chartered accounting practice and as a Finance Director, no company moves to a subscription basis without expecting to enhance its profit.
I may be prepared to pay to access a great physical library I don't own - I just don't want to have to pay to be assured of ongoing access to the great digital library that I already own because the rules have been changed on me.
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Additionally, I would also wonder how it might effect Logos being gifted to others. From a personal example, I setup a Logos account for a young man from church, adding all the free books to it as they come. He uses it on his phone. I had always planned on buying him a package upon him graduating from high school. But I would never consider buying him a subscription.
This is a very good point: when I built up my library, I received assurance from Logos that on my death, I would be able to bequeath my Logos program and data to a family member or seminarian - no strings attached. With the proposed changes, some strings have been added.
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I understand the need for a workable revenue model to fund new development and costly infrastructure. To be frank, the wording of the announcement probably contributed to the confusion we are seeing.
My hope is that, should they choose to use a subscription-only model going forward, they would provide a grace period to allow users who want to own the resources (Sermon Builder, Timeline, etc.) the opportunity to purchase them (i.e. purchase the Full Feature Upgrade). Presumably, that would allow those users to have a stable, downloadable "snapshot" app that they could use going forward without a subscription. I'm not sure if that would mean they would need to install all of the software, resources, and owned content on every device, should those owned things only be accessible via the cloud (with a subscription) going forward.
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It boils down to determining if what is offered in a subscription meets what one would like to achieve and do...
This is so true. My magazine subscriptions of the past were more for use at the time of delivery, were certainly not saved, and have been long gone. Others may have saved their magazines through the years. Most of the books that I received through book subscriptions I would have preferred to keep, but most were lost in a house fire a few years ago (what a blessing my Logos library has become).
As far as music is concerned, I still have some old albums, 8-tracks and cassettes in storage (and so protected from the fire) that I could bring out, but it is certainly easier to use a music subscription. Certainly, we are all individuals though and any subscriptions we may have used over the years will hopefully have met the needs or desires of each individual user.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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that would allow those users to have a stable, downloadable "snapshot" app that they could use going forward without a subscription.
That would indeed be a good and appropriate solution: except that Microsoft / Apple / Google update their operating systems from time to time, and sooner or later you will find Logos breaks. You could buy a device and "freeze it" to use only for Logos, but that probably means disconnecting from the internet to avoid updates / viruses etc, and issues may still arise or the device go kaput.
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While no one can predict the future, I see no reason to not trust Logos when they say that our libraries will always be available, along with free upgrades to the basic software in order to use those libraries.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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While no one can predict the future, I see no reason to not trust Logos when they say that our libraries will always be available, along with free upgrades to the basic software in order to use those libraries.
Hi Sam,
I certainly hope so brother, but experience with software leaves an uneasy feeling: it is easy to envisage something like this:
Over time the subscription base builds as new users, who haven't invested in large libraries / feature sets come on board, making the "older" non-subscription users less critical to the company; the Logos software platform develops; the advantages of cloud computing becomes "overwhelming" and limited development resources are deemed better allocated to the cloud product to generate income rather than the legacy product. Sooner or later, development - and even maintenance releases become less attractive, and so it stops.
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I certainly hope so brother, but experience with software leaves an uneasy feeling:
Brian,
I do understand that concern, and it is certainly not without merit when we look at some actions by other companies in the past. That being said, as it is right now, I trust Logos. Whether through purchase (which I prefer) or subscription, I will continue to use Logos, as long as it aids me in the use of the library that I have purchased from them.
If on the other hand, if sometime in the future, Logos does declare a move away from supporting our purchases, and I can no longer use it to support the products that I have purchased — I would have to walk away.
I have to say though, that I do not see that occurring in any immediate future and I hope that this incredibly long thread, with opinions from all over the spectrum, will help to remind Logos of the importance of continuing to support their long-term customers and the products that they have purchased.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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