Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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Yeah I can agree with your point there. As long as there will be a commitment to have packages ongoing. When I read the original post, the commitment was a bit wishy washy, and unspecific, mainly focusing on Logos Pro. I don't think it's unreasonable as well, reading the early posts when the market developer was responding to concerns. He was fairly non-committal, which gave rise to a lot of concerns evidently.
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from my standpoint - the writing is proverbially on the wall. I really don't thin you need to be a prophet to see whats coming next.
Perspective is everything. You have more or less admitted that you are allowing your emotions to cloud your perspective on this issue. Therefore, it may be prudent to call that perspective into question. The reality is that you know very little of what is being discussed behind closed doors. You may end up being quite satisfied with the product offerings in the Fall.
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For people who would like the purchase option, please remember that it is easy for the firm to give one that is so unattractive. For example, the one-time purchase option might equal 6 years worth of subscription price. Would you still purchase it?
My sense is that they want to drastically increase the 1-time purchase price, probably 3 times the normal. For example, Let's say that the upgrade from Logos 9 feature set to Logos 10 feature set was $200 (I don't remember how much I paid). So we were typically paying $200 every 2 years to purchase it outright. Now, they want to increase this price to $600. Why? Following typical software business model. Most software companies underprice their product to build the customer base, which they know is very sticky (implying they won't leave unless the cost is too prohibitive). Once they've built the customer base, they increase their price beyond fair price (fair price = cost + reasonable profits). So now Logos wants the 1-time upgrade price to be $600. But if they put this out, people are going to rebel. So what is the way to soften this blow? Offer monthly option.
My point is...Please understand that you were paying less than fair value for the software thus far. Its time to pony up.
First of all the suggestion that after 20+ years of business offering software at "under market rates" that they are now planning on moving to what the software "should be worth" doesn't ring so true in my ears. Rather, it seems like they've decided to make a gamble at gaining a much larger userbase by achieving idiot-proof searching through AI, requiring a much larger software team and development/upkeep costs. The problems with this have already been noted in this thread but I will enumerate the chief ones in my mind:
1. Maybe for someone like you it's a matter of "ponying-up", but not all of us are as fortunate as that. I made a decision to invest ~$2000 as a one-in-a-lifetime investment in a computer system with on-going costs as I could determine them based on the business model of the past 10 years. Does this change break the law? No. Does it break my trust in the company? Absolutely. This is not a company that's marketing to people in my socio-economic class. If things go the way you are suggesting, I bitterly regret the money I've put into Logos and I would hope they'd provide some sort of off-ramp for people they are totally out-pricing. I would much rather invest in a company that's less likely to leave me behind.
2. I have not signed up for the trial myself, and don't plan on it. (Subscriptions are a great way to get absent-minded people like me to waste money on things they don't need and don't use). But from what I gather on the "AI" search, there is nothing that would be useful for someone who has already invested time and effort into learning Logos's search functions. The truth is that there is not a limitless set of useful features. What separates Logos from the competition right now is the larger library of resources (albeit often of a lower quality in certain areas than those of the competitor). They're hoping to differentiate themselves. I believe the in power of large language models for deep searching Biblical texts, especially in original languages, where I think there is a great potential for never before discovered insights into ancient languages, but what Logos is developing is explicitly not that, and from what people say about it, only slightly more use-friendly than what previously existed (may this will change??).
Okay, there's so much more to say about why I don't think these new features add any value to the Logos offering, but maybe I'm not the userbase they care about. Increasingly that what it seems like to me.
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You requested some references, and I would suggest there are many more than this, as I have looked into it a fair bit. These are just a couple. I have tried to summarize and identify some the more salient points.
Wayne,
Thank you for your post, I thought it was well done and informative. One thing I would suggest is that you make use of the Quote function when replying to someone or at least include the name of person you are replying to in your post. This would make your comments much easier to follow.
Personally, I do find your post helpful. It helps to shed light on various aspects of the complexities surrounding subscription models.
I would also point out that subscription models can sometimes be all but inevitable. I believe this is where Logos finds itself. Like it or not, the company has made a decision to pursue AI-integration with their Bible software. There are clear and obvious current and future benefits attached to such a decision. Whether in the end these benefits will outweigh the cons is impossible to say. But in many ways it's out of their hands. Modern society has access to the internet. That is our current reality. Whether we use the internet for good or evil, however, is a decision that only we can make on an individual level. I believe this example closely parallels the rise of AI.
The integration of AI has regular costs associated with it that must be covered if they are to maintain a sustainable business model. Thus, they have forced themselves into a situation where they must encourage users to subscribe, rather than make one-off purchases for features.
This does NOT mean that they have to stop offering feature packages for purchase. it does mean that if they choose to continue selling features (and I so hope that they do), these packages will only contain some, but not all, of the features being rolled out in Logos Pro. Over time, as AI becomes more important, the purchasable feature options will eventually operate quite differently than the AI-powered subscription version. This is ok, however, as long as everything is priced fairly and sustainably.
Apologies Aaron, I should use that feature. To be honest, on this side of the world its a bit late, and didn't envisage getting into any extended discussions tonight.
Anyway, I think from what you said, they voluntarily put themselves in the position to incur additional costs in this way. If they keep to their word and provide access to a Full Feature Set that allows access to the software that would make me happy. However, my faith that they won't passively push people toward that via unreasonable pricing, doesn't give me confidence, particularly the vague non-committal Mark Barnes had on some of these questions that were asked. He stated that they "were still evaluating" whether or not these sets would be carried forward.
So sure, it will be true that for new users, the upfront costs would be lower, however for long time users like myself that have a significant $$ invested in this, it is a kick in the teeth to then ask for more money, and not just more, an ongoing cost into perpetuity. If $9.99 is a special offer to long time users who have purchased a feature set, then I want to know what the real price is, to have and preserve what features I already have? What this does is introduce a heap of uncertainly, and dissatisfaction because I think I am understandably upset that I won't know what my future commitments to the future usability of my investment will be, or even if a program to read/use them will be available without having to pay some nominal fee for it, particularly since you rightly stated that they now have AI overheads, and its in their best interest to encourage people to subscribe.
As I quoted in one of those articles, subscription fatigue is a real and growing trend. As Donnie has said as well, subscriptions do not create long term loyalty. The very real dollars we have invested over long periods of time are what made me "sticky", Subscriptions, quite honestly, is like an anti-adhesive to me, even despite the investment I have made. If I feel at any point a company is trying to take advantage of me to my detriment, I would be very reticent to continue to support them.
Unfortunately, of late, companies have had some attitude changes that effectively communicate the the old adage of "the customers always right" no longer holds sway. What holds sway now is, "we will drag customers with us kicking and screaming, they don't really know what they want."
I might change my mind later down the track, but I doubt it. I have worked with AI, researched AI, and even this recent debacle with Googles Gemini AI - that is truly genuinely scary. On a professional level, I have used AI for research. Empirically I can tell you it guesses, it makes things up. Numerous occasions I have found that it purely just made things up. I had tested it on knowledge I already knew to be true, and found enough false to distrust it completely. Just saying, say what you like about AI, but when it comes to the Word of God - its a hard no. I would wager many would agree,
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from my standpoint - the writing is proverbially on the wall. I really don't thin you need to be a prophet to see whats coming next.
Perspective is everything. You have more or less admitted that you are allowing your emotions to cloud your perspective on this issue. Therefore, it may be prudent to call that perspective into question. The reality is that you know very little of what is being discussed behind closed doors. You may end up being quite satisfied with the product offerings in the Fall.
I highly doubt it Aaron, the presence of AI on an empirical level is enough for me to steer way clear of it. See my post above. Besides, you are trying to divorce my emotions from my perspective. I am human, and I have them for a reason - God gave them to me. I have found through life, that you cannot separate the human factor from any decision making - that I believe is a fallacy of our present age - to think that everyone can be objective. I am both a CPA by trade and an Agronomist and lay preacher, and even the accounting profession acknowledges this fact in their Ethics and Governance. Objectivity isn't everything in this scenario. Objectively, a business has to assess its decisions based on subjective human behavior. If there a many people like me, then from an objective point of view, you won't win a lot of favors by side-lining you customers.
Not to be rude, but I think the argument doesn't really prove anything one way or the other. Its just an observation on my humanity.
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Empirically I can tell you it guesses, it makes things up. Numerous occasions I have found that it purely just made things up
While I agree this is true in general I'm less sure it applies in the way Logos is currently using AI tools.
Taking Smart Search for example, the AI aspects are about working out the most relevant hits to a search query drawing on resources you have in your Library (a Books Search) or the Logos catalog (an All Search).
So it isn't making things up, it is suggesting which books, journals, etc might be most helpful to look at.
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from my standpoint - the writing is proverbially on the wall. I really don't thin you need to be a prophet to see whats coming next.
Perspective is everything. You have more or less admitted that you are allowing your emotions to cloud your perspective on this issue. Therefore, it may be prudent to call that perspective into question. The reality is that you know very little of what is being discussed behind closed doors. You may end up being quite satisfied with the product offerings in the Fall.
I appreciate that you don't like some of the labels that have been thrown around. Perhaps I don't either. But when Logos says they're "leaning heavily into a subscription model" I believe them. And when they fail to clarify after much questioning, that a "non-subscription option" will be provided, the most reasonable conclusion is that they really were hoping to not offer one. At the very least that means that if they do offer a non-subscription option, it's "less than optimal" for them, and that kind of attitude spells trouble for us down the road.
You may see a string of assumptions behind that logic, and you'd be right, but I'm reading the official announcements as carefully as I can. And the point of this thread was feedback, and my feedback is that I'd really like some kind of assurance that my investment in Logos will be protected. A POSSIBILITY (despite my best reading the announcements) of a pleasant surprise in the fall is not a great deal of comfort.
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Empirically I can tell you it guesses, it makes things up. Numerous occasions I have found that it purely just made things up
While I agree this is true in general I'm less sure it applies in the way Logos is currently using AI tools.
Taking Smart Search for example, the AI aspects are about working out the most relevant hits to a search query drawing on resources you have in your Library (a Books Search) or the Logos catalog (an All Search).
So it isn't making things up, it is suggesting which books, journals, etc might be most helpful to look at.
How long to you think before language models will be integrated into doin more than just searching? It is easy to make comments about these things early on in the piece, what about later? What about the pressure to keep producing features to justify a subscription. Commercial and customer pressure will factor in at some stage. I don't want to think of just the road that is in front of me now. I want to think about whats coming later, the destination of that road. Its why I brought up social media in a previous posts. By all metrics it was a god-send in its early days. Look at it now. Congress is voting to ban Tik-Tok. Have you seen the studies on cognitive decline in youths due to the algorithms used in social media and their addictive natures? Not so great now. I would encourage you not to look at the immediate, but the potential pitfalls down the road.
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How long to you think before language models will be integrated into doin more than just searching.
I don't know - but, even having read all / most of the discussion here I continue to be confident that the Logos teams will make good decisions about the way forward.
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Empirically I can tell you it guesses, it makes things up. Numerous occasions I have found that it purely just made things up
While I agree this is true in general I'm less sure it applies in the way Logos is currently using AI tools.
Taking Smart Search for example, the AI aspects are about working out the most relevant hits to a search query drawing on resources you have in your Library (a Books Search) or the Logos catalog (an All Search).
So it isn't making things up, it is suggesting which books, journals, etc might be most helpful to look at.
How long to you think before language models will be integrated into doin more than just searching? It is easy to make comments about these things early on in the piece, what about later? What about the pressure to keep producing features to justify a subscription. Commercial and customer pressure will factor in at some stage. I don't want to think of just the road that is in front of me now. I want to think about whats coming later, the destination of that road. Its why I brought up social media in a previous posts. By all metrics it was a god-send in its early days. Look at it now. Congress is voting to ban Tik-Tok. Have you seen the studies on cognitive decline in youths due to the algorithms used in social media and their addictive natures? Not so great now. I would encourage you not to look at the immediate, but the potential pitfalls down the road.
I share your concern for large language model AI and it's integration into everything. However, as I understand it, Logos AI is not a large language model at all. I'm quite skeptical that it's worthy of the title AI, though I say that as a distant observer who has not experimented with it.
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How long to you think before language models will be integrated into doin more than just searching.
I don't know - but, even having read all / most of the discussion here I continue to be confident that the Logos teams will make good decisions about the way forward.
Ps 118:9 It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in Princes. I would rather see the proof of that than out any trust in any man, let alone corporation. Until then, I remain skeptical, yet not without hope that correct decisions will be made. However, as I have said before, doubts remain due to the evident steps already take down this road, which would not have been cheap to do. In many ways, they are committed.
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Empirically I can tell you it guesses, it makes things up. Numerous occasions I have found that it purely just made things up
While I agree this is true in general I'm less sure it applies in the way Logos is currently using AI tools.
Taking Smart Search for example, the AI aspects are about working out the most relevant hits to a search query drawing on resources you have in your Library (a Books Search) or the Logos catalog (an All Search).
So it isn't making things up, it is suggesting which books, journals, etc might be most helpful to look at.
How long to you think before language models will be integrated into doin more than just searching? It is easy to make comments about these things early on in the piece, what about later? What about the pressure to keep producing features to justify a subscription. Commercial and customer pressure will factor in at some stage. I don't want to think of just the road that is in front of me now. I want to think about whats coming later, the destination of that road. Its why I brought up social media in a previous posts. By all metrics it was a god-send in its early days. Look at it now. Congress is voting to ban Tik-Tok. Have you seen the studies on cognitive decline in youths due to the algorithms used in social media and their addictive natures? Not so great now. I would encourage you not to look at the immediate, but the potential pitfalls down the road.
I share your concern for large language model AI and it's integration into everything. However, as I understand it, Logos AI is not a large language model at all. I'm quite skeptical that it's worthy of the title AI, though I say that as a distant observer who has not experimented with it.
Its what you would dubb machine learning, or reactive machines which is algorithm based and have no memory this is as old as IBM's Deep Blue in 1997. What we have now is Limited AI which most current language based AI are now. The reactive AI should be cheaper than what is called AI now. The level above say Chat GPT is AGI or Artificial General Intelligence (already on its way) and ASI (artificial super intelligence - also on its way). Logos only mentioned AI in general terms. We don't truly know the scope of what they plan to do with the software. Will consumer/commercial pressure dictate to derive subscription value to develop other tools in a progressive fashion and get to a point where like a frog in a pan, we will wonder how we got here? I truly don't know, but I think its worth asking the question.
Remember my concern is not just for the immediate future, it is for the future as well.
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I've read the over-1000 posts (so far) on this thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this aspect of subscription-driven corporate work. This applies *now* to Faithlife, since it is *now* a secular organization, driven by the need to increase revenue for the shareholders. That's just the way it is, since Bob and many of his original family & crew have taken a much-deserved retirement.
Here is the "gotcha" regarding subscriptions, in general.
For a pure-subscription service that offers products (books) which the users plan to reference repeatedly ... and depend on that ability (unlike, say, the Netflix movie library) ... there is LITTLE INCENTIVE for the company to continue to ADD NEW features ... doing so costs them extra effort in the creation, debugging, documentation and support of those new features.
That is, if they so choose, they can potentially maximize their net profit (and shareholder benefits) by just maintaining the status quo ... keeping up with OS releases as necessary (relatively easy). They don't NEED to add new or even fix any current features ... they don't even NEED to add more books.
WHY? Because, under a *PURE* subscription model, all their users (past and present) are "trapped by their need" for the services that already exist.
Only those users that have previously PURCHASED "in perpetuity" rights to the engine as well as the books, can choose to refuse ongoing subscription payments ... they can avoid issues with OS changes by using VM (Virtual Machine) "frozen snapshots" (a little tricky to set up, but not expensive to use). This VM approach also protects purchase-users from having some or all of the engine features (or books) "taken away" by a future (sneaky) "automatic update" which disables active tools.
I would hope that this latter event would never happen, but from a *secular organization* that wants to "convert" millions of existing customer into a trapped revenue stream, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Of course, if they do that, they're likely going to be hit with a massive user-lawsuit against the secular organization, for breach-of-faith and breach-of-"in perpetuity"-promises ... and due to the likelihood of that response, I don't think it will happen.
Summary: Subscription models TRAP the users, and REMOVE INCENTIVE from the sellers to make improvements, when the product has benefits and resources that inherently entail repeated ongoing use.
I realize this is somewhat of a "dark perspective" ... but it's a real derivative of the way that secular, investor-driven companies often work.
And btw ... were it not for that sweeping recent change in ownership, I would not have suggested the concerns that I have in this post.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Summary: Subscription models TRAP the users, and REMOVE INCENTIVE from the sellers to make improvements, when the product has benefits and resources that inherently entail repeated ongoing use.
I realize this is somewhat of a "dark perspective" ... but it's a real derivative of the way that secular, investor-driven companies often work.
And btw ... were it not for that sweeping recent change in ownership, I would not have suggested the concerns that I have in this post.
Wellllll..... let's consider another side ok?
There are many millions of people that will "rent" or "Lease" their vehicles. In fact, I have done that in the past. I would argue that if the car "rental" companies never updated their vehicles... people would not "rent from them". I think the same is true with Logos. If Logos does "as you predict" sit on it's backsides and do not keep developing features to keep up with the ongoing and evolving digital world... I see that it won't be long before Logos is left in the dust and some other bible software will gleam all it's subscribers. That the way of the business world.
Because of that, I have every confidence that Logos wants to be around and as such will keep bringing on new and better features.
Just my 2 cents... which ain't worth nuttin.... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Summary: Subscription models TRAP the users, and REMOVE INCENTIVE from the sellers to make improvements, when the product has benefits and resources that inherently entail repeated ongoing use.
I realize this is somewhat of a "dark perspective" ... but it's a real derivative of the way that secular, investor-driven companies often work.
And btw ... were it not for that sweeping recent change in ownership, I would not have suggested the concerns that I have in this post.
Wellllll..... let's consider another side ok?
There are many millions of people that will "rent" or "Lease" their vehicles. In fact, I have done that in the past. I would argue that if the car "rental" companies never updated their vehicles... people would not "rent from them". I think the same is true with Logos. If Logos does "as you predict" sit on it's backsides and do not keep developing features to keep up with the ongoing and evolving digital world... I see that it won't be long before Logos is left in the dust and some other bible software will gleam all it's subscribers. That the way of the business world.
Because of that, I have every confidence that Logos wants to be around and as such will keep bringing on new and better features.
Just my 2 cents... which ain't worth nuttin....
Except you go into renting or leasing a car knowing that is what your doing..... So that may be a fair analogy for new customers of Logos who only know subscription.... Not current and long time customers - And for "another side", you mention another Bible software company grabbing Logos' subscribers - it may just be the subscription model that pushes a lot of faithful customers to that "other"!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Pointing out corporate greed is not disparaging. Its calling things out the way they are.
According to who? At what point is the line crossed from wise business practice to corporate greed? What decisions are being used as a baseline to make such measurements? Pertaining to the situation at hand, No concrete decisions have been made about the subscription model going forward. All we have is an early access to a product that will be released in the Fall. This forum is a great place to voice thoughts and preferences pertaining to Logos Pro and the upcoming subscription model. But I see no reason to rush to judgements and accusations before the product has even been released.
Also no reason to not prepare just in case Faithlife (or the company they report to) decides to ignore the massive support for perpetual license purchasing that they received from the feedback they requested.... If their marching orders are to ignore us and try to push for subscription only, then are we supposed to just wait until fall, without investigating other options or prepare for a possible future of VM being our escape?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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If their marching orders are to ignore us and try to push for subscription only, then are we supposed to just wait until fall, without investigating other options or prepare for a possible future of VM being our escape?
Everyone is free to do as they please, of course. I find that it can be easy to rush to judgements and conclusions, especially in forums like this where misinformation easily spreads (no one is at fault for this. It's not realistic to expect people to comb through 1,000+ posts to see if their concerns have been addressed). Personally, I am optimistic about the future of Logos, and I believe the company will make decisions that clearly reflect their expressed concern for the opinions voiced by their users. I am willing to wait and see. I do not feel entitled to frequent updates in the decision-making process. I may be wrong in my assumptions and expectations. If so, I will be very disappointed. I also do not expect everyone to share my optimism. But I do believe that Christians are morally obligated to show a certain level of restraint when it comes to making judgements. Exactly where that line is crossed, however, I have no interest in trying to gauge.
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Just want to second Aaron's comments. I, too, am optimistic and having seen this thread from the beginning, I was never under the impression that a final decision would be rushed ahead of official release. I might be concerned if they did rush, actually.
I say this as someone who has spent, I think, a decent amount on Logos (approaching six figures since 2008 according to my order history page, which has been for my own library and for other users/pastors). In fact, I fully expect to stick with the new subscription. For years I would buy full feature and/or library, which, I believe, was more expensive than the connect (no library) subscription I had/have, which also offered 2% rewards on purchases. Every 2 years I knew I'd spend hundreds on upgrading for full features any way, so I never minded the subscription idea.
Let me hasten to add, though, that I do hope Logos continues to offer non-subscription feature upgrades for those who view it differently.
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@xnman think you are wrong to compare the two. Cars suffer attrition, depreciation. Books far less so and virtually non existent in the electronic form. Refer to previous posts about the dangers faced going down this route. Just pointing out that comparing a car rental company to a subscription model for books is fallacious at best, a straw man.
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Because of that, I have every confidence that Logos wants to be around and as such will keep bringing on new and better features.
Just want to second Aaron's comments. I, too, am optimistic and having seen this thread from the beginning, I was never under the impression that a final decision would be rushed ahead of official release. I might be concerned if they did rush, actually.
I am optimistic as well. I am happy about some of the changes that I am seeing in beta that I feel will be useful — not only for me as I seek to study and teach, but likewise for students in group study. I am excited to share with my students the valuable tools for Bible study that I find in Logos.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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If their marching orders are to ignore us and try to push for subscription only, then are we supposed to just wait until fall, without investigating other options or prepare for a possible future of VM being our escape?
Everyone is free to do as they please, of course. I find that it can be easy to rush to judgements and conclusions, especially in forums like this where misinformation easily spreads (no one is at fault for this. It's not realistic to expect people to comb through 1,000+ posts to see if their concerns have been addressed). Personally, I am optimistic about the future of Logos, and I believe the company will make decisions that clearly reflect their expressed concern for the opinions voiced by their users. I am willing to wait and see. I do not feel entitled to frequent updates in the decision-making process. I may be wrong in my assumptions and expectations. If so, I will be very disappointed. I also do not expect everyone to share my optimism. But I do believe that Christians are morally obligated to show a certain level of restraint when it comes to making judgements. Exactly where that line is crossed, however, I have no interest in trying to gauge.
I suppose the man who fell out of a plane with no parachute, can be an optimist right up until he hit the ground. The Bible says we out to exercise judgement and discernmen, I don’t see any call to chastise anyone who has reservations about the future of this software and fair use of the resources purchased. why I can have pointed to is that corporate greed is a factor and that the company is essentially secular. Don’t expect them to hold the same values as Christians hold. I think that’s a fair assessmen, and think it’s unfair to call into question the moral of people who question the direction this is taking, when you look at the bigger picture of what’s happened in in the past, in the larger picture of corporate trends.
Time will be the judge here.
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Don’t expect them to hold the same values as Christians hold. I think that’s a fair assessmen, and think it’s unfair to call into question the moral of people who question the direction this is taking
Please try to not misrepresent my words. In my comment I said 1) I do not expect everyone to share my optimism and 2) I have no interest in trying to gauge where the moral line is crossed when making judgements. How do those comments translate into me questioning "the moral of people who question the direction this is taking"? Please allow me to clarify, lest I leave you with a false impression. I think it's great that everyone is free to voice their thoughts, preferences and opinions about this and every other matter within Logos. I think it's great that the team cares about our thoughts, preferences and opinions. I expect diversity. I certainly never expect everyone to feel as I feel about any matter. I hope that differences can be brought up and discussed in a respectful way. I understand that I occasionally fall short in this area, and for that I apologize. However, generally speaking, I appreciate it when my words are read in context for what they are, and not taken out of context and exaggerated. I will try to show others the same courtesy.
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So in short all that has been spent to this point has been wasted. Our books were never really ours. Now you change your platform and we all know that the day will come the without an ongoing subscription things will simply not work or be accessible. You have pulled the mother of all bait and switches in the name of improvements. This sure looks like a full on deception! Tell me what I have wrong here? You were developing and about to launch this at the same time I had sales people calling to get me to spend a lot of money to “upgrade” knowing that the features would likely disappear or be useless? Unless you all can produce some kind of ironclad guarantee regarding existing books/features and sustained support for existing platform non subscribers you have lost me as a customer, you will lose my church as a Faithlife Connect user, at least 5 other users in my church and I will be happy to warn everyone I know of your actions. I welcome your reply
By all means judge us by what we've done, and even judge us for what we say we will do. But please don't judge us for what you only imagine we will do, especially when we've gone out of our way to say that we will not do it.
Subscriptions aren’t required to maintain access to your existing content. They’re for those who want access to new and improved features. With Logos, your content investment is always safe, and you’ll always be able to access it for free. The subscription benefits listed above for features don’t apply to books in the same way, so we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books.
Oh well, maybe I am wrong. This post gave me hope and encouragement.
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Don’t expect them to hold the same values as Christians hold. I think that’s a fair assessmen, and think it’s unfair to call into question the moral of people who question the direction this is taking
Please try to not misrepresent my words. In my comment I said 1) I do not expect everyone to share my optimism and 2) I have no interest in trying to gauge where the moral line is crossed when making judgements. How do those comments translate into me questioning "the moral of people who question the direction this is taking"? Please allow me to clarify, lest I leave you with a false impression. I think it's great that everyone is free to voice their thoughts, preferences and opinions about this and every other matter within Logos. I think it's great that the team cares about our thoughts, preferences and opinions. I expect diversity. I certainly never expect everyone to feel as I feel about any matter. I hope that differences can be brought up and discussed in a respectful way. I understand that I occasionally fall short in this area, and for that I apologize. However, generally speaking, I appreciate it when my words are read in context for what they are, and not taken out of context and exaggerated. I will try to show others the same courtesy.
I apologise Aaron, it was written in haste, and I didn't do justice in reading your post in depth. Forgive me for mischaracterizing your intent.
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I apologise Aaron, it was written in haste, and I didn't do justice in reading your post in depth. Forgive me for mischaracterizing your intent.
Of course, as long as you'll extend me the same grace when I'm the one in need of it [:)].
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Anytime
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I've read the over-1000 posts (so far) on this thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this aspect of subscription-driven corporate work. This applies *now* to Faithlife, since it is *now* a secular organization, driven by the need to increase revenue for the shareholders. That's just the way it is, since Bob and many of his original family & crew have taken a much-deserved retirement.
I included the following in a post on April 7 (p.47). Maybe you missed itwhen reading through, Jim...
It is interesting to trace the chronology over the past few years.
In late 2021, Mr Bob Pritchett, on of the Founders, stepped down as CEO and Vik Rajagopal was appointed. In his post of Oct.25 last year, Vik stated "one of the changes I’ve made in my two years as CEO has been to reemphasize and reinvest in our core products – namely Logos Bible Software." He also foreshadowed the "next version of Logos" in the first half of 2024.
Vik also mentioned Bob Pritchett's ongoing role: "when I stepped in as CEO two years ago, Bob transitioned to a full-time position on our Board of Directors. He continues to serve as a Board member, and I (virtually) saw him just last week at our most recent Board meeting. He remains involved in the business and is an ongoing advocate for our customers and the overall user experience with Logos" (emphasis added).
Some time around this time, though, it seems that Bob (and perhaps other shareholder/s) sold a controlling majority of their shares to a venture capital company, Cove Hill Partners.
Not long after, on Feb.26 this year - 6 weeks ago - Vik posted, "But I’m actually writing to share a personal update with you all - that I am stepping down as CEO of Logos, effective today. I joined Logos nearly 3.5 years ago as CFO and succeeded Bob as CEO in late 2021." He also announced that the Logos Board had appointed a new CEO, Mr Bill McCarthy.
Then Mark Barnes announced on March 6 - 5 weeks ago - that Logos was moving to a subscription model for its users, to be introduced "later this year."
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I've read the over-1000 posts (so far) on this thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this aspect of subscription-driven corporate work. This applies *now* to Faithlife, since it is *now* a secular organization, driven by the need to increase revenue for the shareholders. That's just the way it is, since Bob and many of his original family & crew have taken a much-deserved retirement.
I included the following in a post on April 7 (p.47). Maybe you missed itwhen reading through, Jim...
It is interesting to trace the chronology over the past few years.
In late 2021, Mr Bob Pritchett, on of the Founders, stepped down as CEO and Vik Rajagopal was appointed. In his post of Oct.25 last year, Vik stated "one of the changes I’ve made in my two years as CEO has been to reemphasize and reinvest in our core products – namely Logos Bible Software." He also foreshadowed the "next version of Logos" in the first half of 2024.
Vik also mentioned Bob Pritchett's ongoing role: "when I stepped in as CEO two years ago, Bob transitioned to a full-time position on our Board of Directors. He continues to serve as a Board member, and I (virtually) saw him just last week at our most recent Board meeting. He remains involved in the business and is an ongoing advocate for our customers and the overall user experience with Logos" (emphasis added).
Some time around this time, though, it seems that Bob (and perhaps other shareholder/s) sold a controlling majority of their shares to a venture capital company, Cove Hill Partners.
Not long after, on Feb.26 this year - 6 weeks ago - Vik posted, "But I’m actually writing to share a personal update with you all - that I am stepping down as CEO of Logos, effective today. I joined Logos nearly 3.5 years ago as CFO and succeeded Bob as CEO in late 2021." He also announced that the Logos Board had appointed a new CEO, Mr Bill McCarthy.
Then Mark Barnes announced on March 6 - 5 weeks ago - that Logos was moving to a subscription model for its users, to be introduced "later this year."
===============================
Hi Peter_G:
Yes I do remember that post and I found it interesting and informative. Thank you for the historical info.
The part of your post which my “I hope not but this is a possible future” post was addressing, has primarily to do with the venture-capital group “Cove Hill Partners”.
The Board, regardless of who is on it, has a legal primary fiduciary responsibility to the investors that make up the Cove Hill partnership.
If push comes to shove, Cove Hill can bring the hammer down on the board (presuming Cove Hill has majority voting stock control), and force the board to make choices that improve their investors’ net return.
My prior moderately long scenario-post posits that situation. If that happens (maybe it already has) then two things will naturally result:
1. Salary and overhead costs will be trimmed or slashed - this means fewer staff to do programming, debugging, and customer service. Typically the last staff category to be cut is sales - but since (I’m guessing) the majority of sales is automated from web page orders, sales staff may be cut too. Net result for customer would be “less-good” pre-and post-sale human assistance. AND (more to the point I was making in my OP), a VERY likely result is that fewer new features will be added, and they won’t be as robust, and they will come more slowly.
2. Revenue-generation methods will be overhauled, and products might have fewer discounting windows, but the main way Logos could significantly increase revenue very quickly is to get as many customers out the the millions it has historically, to start paying SOMETHING on a monthly basis, without Logos having to promise new specific, scheduled products/features. That is, the customer is paying MAINLY to maintain the status quo, and is HOPING new features will be added frequently enough to justify their cumulative subscription fees.
THE POINT I made is that if #1 is done, fewer developers/testers on staff means fewer features created over a given period of time. And if #2 is done, especially if #1 is also done, then a larger and larger percentage of the subscription fee revenues will simply translate directly to the bottom line, and from there to the investors - thus satisfying the company’s fiduciary obligations to them.
And THAT means people will be paying more and getting less - all the while, TRAPPED into the subscription if they want to keep the features that have been added since L10 build 32-ish
All that I’ve said is “educated, experienced extrapolation” with a cautionary pragmatic bent. I’ve personally been in executive positions, and on the Board of a holding company that actively managed five separate med-size businesses. So, I’m hoping that qualifies me to speak to this issue (in addition to business education and experience).
And, as I said before, I would not be writing this except for the change in ownership to Cove Hill, a secular investment group.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
I've read the over-1000 posts (so far) on this thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this aspect of subscription-driven corporate work. This applies *now* to Faithlife, since it is *now* a secular organization, driven by the need to increase revenue for the shareholders. That's just the way it is, since Bob and many of his original family & crew have taken a much-deserved retirement.
I included the following in a post on April 7 (p.47). Maybe you missed itwhen reading through, Jim...
It is interesting to trace the chronology over the past few years.
In late 2021, Mr Bob Pritchett, on of the Founders, stepped down as CEO and Vik Rajagopal was appointed. In his post of Oct.25 last year, Vik stated "one of the changes I’ve made in my two years as CEO has been to reemphasize and reinvest in our core products – namely Logos Bible Software." He also foreshadowed the "next version of Logos" in the first half of 2024.
Vik also mentioned Bob Pritchett's ongoing role: "when I stepped in as CEO two years ago, Bob transitioned to a full-time position on our Board of Directors. He continues to serve as a Board member, and I (virtually) saw him just last week at our most recent Board meeting. He remains involved in the business and is an ongoing advocate for our customers and the overall user experience with Logos" (emphasis added).
Some time around this time, though, it seems that Bob (and perhaps other shareholder/s) sold a controlling majority of their shares to a venture capital company, Cove Hill Partners.
Not long after, on Feb.26 this year - 6 weeks ago - Vik posted, "But I’m actually writing to share a personal update with you all - that I am stepping down as CEO of Logos, effective today. I joined Logos nearly 3.5 years ago as CFO and succeeded Bob as CEO in late 2021." He also announced that the Logos Board had appointed a new CEO, Mr Bill McCarthy.
Then Mark Barnes announced on March 6 - 5 weeks ago - that Logos was moving to a subscription model for its users, to be introduced "later this year."
===============================
Hi Peter_G:
Yes I do remember that post and I found it interesting and informative. Thank you for the historical info.
The part of your post which my “I hope not but this is a possible future” post was addressing, has primarily to do with the venture-capital group “Cove Hill Partners”.
The Board, regardless of who is on it, has a legal primary fiduciary responsibility to the investors that make up the Cove Hill partnership.
If push comes to shove, Cove Hill can bring the hammer down on the board (presuming Cove Hill has majority voting stock control), and force the board to make choices that improve their investors’ net return.
My prior moderately long scenario-post posits that situation. If that happens (maybe it already has) then two things will naturally result:
1. Salary and overhead costs will be trimmed or slashed - this means fewer staff to do programming, debugging, and customer service. Typically the last staff category to be cut is sales - but since (I’m guessing) the majority of sales is automated from web page orders, sales staff may be cut too. Net result for customer would be “less-good” pre-and post-sale human assistance. AND (more to the point I was making in my OP), a VERY likely result is that fewer new features will be added, and they won’t be as robust, and they will come more slowly.
2. Revenue-generation methods will be overhauled, and products might have fewer discounting windows, but the main way Logos could significantly increase revenue very quickly is to get as many customers out the the millions it has historically, to start paying SOMETHING on a monthly basis, without Logos having to promise new specific, scheduled products/features. That is, the customer is paying MAINLY to maintain the status quo, and is HOPING new features will be added frequently enough to justify their cumulative subscription fees.
THE POINT I made is that if #1 is done, fewer developers/testers on staff means fewer features created over a given period of time. And if #2 is done, especially if #1 is also done, then a larger and larger percentage of the subscription fee revenues will simply translate directly to the bottom line, and from there to the investors - thus satisfying the company’s fiduciary obligations to them.
And THAT means people will be paying more and getting less - all the while, TRAPPED into the subscription if they want to keep the features that have been added since L10 build 32-ish
All that I’ve said is “educated, experienced extrapolation” with a cautionary pragmatic bent. I’ve personally been in executive positions, and on the Board of a holding company that actively managed five separate med-size businesses. So, I’m hoping that qualifies me to speak to this issue (in addition to business education and experience).
And, as I said before, I would not be writing this except for the change in ownership to Cove Hill, a secular investment group.
I would agree with your assessment on this. It is the job a good sales team to make sure the customer perceives a benefit, and as someone mentioned before, the company "lands and expands". The subscription fee you get now, will intentionally low, the perception of a large benefit, only to expand the fee with less or the same benefits. Like many have pointed out, there are a limited number of features Logos can potentially roll out, and once those features have been rolled out, then the pressure of finding new features will happen. Enter the true AI features, and the beginning of a very slippery slope for teachers who rely on AI.
Its why I used an analogy earlier of a man outside a plane with no parachute. Initially he is closer to the plane than to the ground. Its easy to be positive when you are right out the plane. Maybe someone will also jump out and rescue me as I am falling? But once you jump, you are committed. I guess I take your view with this, because it is similar. Once you start down a path, when you take the circumstantial context in which this business operates, the politics of boards, investment and shareholders, the pathway is well worn and predictable.
I think optimism in general when it comes to situations like this are fraught with the danger of disappointment. It is why I take the negative view. In the case that I am proven wrong, at least I won't be disappointed. I just think this thing should be fought against. What you see now is the view right out the plane where you think you have your parachute on. As time goes on, you suspect you might have forgotten something. The ground, in my opinion, is the introduction of a language model AI doing research, which from my own professional experience, is definitely not something you want to apply to Biblical studies.
I think your summary and speculations will prove to be more accurate than we all like, despite assurances from the Board, marketing or the CEO. As we have seen, things can change fairly quickly. When you have a fuller picture, a bit down the track, I would be willing to bet people will cast at least a cursory look backwards and think, "Maybe I should have voiced some concern".
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Here's a recent video update on Logos Pro, with comments about subscriptions near the end of the video.
You may need to be signed into the Logos.com in order to access this material.
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