Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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Mark Allison said:
I'll pay $10/month just for the fun of getting answers to questions like "were there dinosaurs on the ark?"
You just sealed the argument for why all of us need to subscribe to this. :-)
Dr. Nathan Parker
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One thing that has not been addressed is Mobile Ed. I know there is a subscription there, but will that be changing? I enjoy the courses quite a bit. They are quite costly however, and I would like a way to choose a subscription where I can pick the courses I want for a given time period.
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Jonathan Davis said:
One thing that has not been addressed is Mobile Ed.
Welcome to the forums. Mobile Ed has not been addressed because it does not figure in this intermediate product. We'll have to wait until the Fall when the full subscription product lineup is rolled out. Given that the Mobile Ed department has been abolished except for finishing up products that were already filmed, I'm not comfortable making a guess as to what will be done.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
I have no need for quick/early access to features. I am very happy with the current feature set in Logos 10 with a few caveats for improvements.
I don't need or want AI. I get tired of the online search engines that produce a bunch of results that barely fit my query.
I sure hope you will continue to provide a product that can work offline with the full feature set available today. I usually try to work online, but there are several circumstances where no Internet access is available or very slow.
I like your near-future plans as described in your message to offer additional capabilities for those that need/want them without taking away the current ability to have a perpetual license to the software as well as the books/resources.
Thank you for listening and asking for response.
Blessings,
Andrew0 -
Don Awalt said:
Logos is moving to subscription, as many others have. Just bite the bullet and do it
Please NOT!
Please always keep an option for perpetual license for base features (meaning all that is currently provided). I have no problem with adding features via a subscription plan if necessary. Subscriptions are not an option for those of us who are not pastors or otherwise have annual book allowances.
Thank you again for listening.
Clearly, there are wide ranging needs and it is a challenge to meet them all. I appreciate the effort to try.
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As a current connect subscriber with a medium-size library, I am great with a subscription option that includes all features and datasets. What I am not excited about is any resources being included in that subscription. These end up feeling like cell phone plans that include payment plans for the phone where over time you end up paying farm more for the phone than the actual cost. I just want all the features and let me continue to manage the resources that are useful to me.
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As someone who has been considering buying Logos for the first time (I actually had planned to make the purchase today) this thread has led me to decide not to go ahead. I have only just navigated the lybranthine array of packages to find what suited my use case (Academic) and now I find that no-one is clear about what the future of that entire system looks like. It's not at all clear to me whether I will required - after having bought it oughtright - to transfer to a subscription to retain it, or if not, how long what I've just bought will last since updates seem to be promised only to the subscription model. All assurances can only be short term if this becomes the fundamental business model of the company.
To be fair, I was never interested in spending tens of thousands on an electronic library I don't own (the Print Catalog feature appealed for this very reason, but it doesn't seem to be available to the Academic packages), which it has been stated here is the main profit driver, so I was never going to be a great fit. As a Bibleworks user I'm interested in studying the Bible deeply, not searching a library - I just want great tools. In addition, I have no interest whatsoever in AI and suspect the current trend to jam it into everything will run its course relatively soon.
It's clear that Logos themselves haven't made their mind up "We're still thinking through ...", so this is clearly not time to step into the ecosystem.
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Hi Gordon
Gordon Walker said:It's not at all clear to me whether I will required - after having bought it oughtright - to transfer to a subscription to retain it, or if not, how long what I've just bought will last since updates seem to be promised only to the subscription model.
In Mark's post that started this thread he said:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Will I be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future? What about all the books I’ve already bought?
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment. Your books are your books. Subscriptions are for those who want access to the latest improvements, which aim to help you uncover deeper insights in less time.
Does this clarify or does it still leave you with concerns?
Graham
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
That's true. We could release some new features without a subscription at any pace we want (not including AI features, of course). But it's very hard to add a new feature and then deliver multiple improvements to it over several months without a subscription model.
Mark, I have always admired your ability to provide clarity to difficult subjects and that hasn't changed as I read through this thread; thank you!
While I don't like the subscription model, I do understand it is may be needed in order for a business to cover the costs of improvements and support. I hope you will find a way to keep a base feature set based on a perpetual license along with a subscription model for online only features and new features. Periodically, an upgrade to the base feature set could be offered that includes some of those new features previously available via the subscription that are deemed appropriate to the base feature set. I would imagine no feature improvements between those upgrades, but would hope that bugs would be addressed.
Thanks for listening,
Andrew0 -
Andrew Loney said:
Subscriptions are not an option for those of us who are not pastors or otherwise have annual book allowances.
I appreciate this sentiment. This is where I am.
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scooter said:Andrew Loney said:
Subscriptions are not an option for those of us who are not pastors or otherwise have annual book allowances.
Then don't pay for the subscription.0 -
Mark Allison said:scooter said:Andrew Loney said:
Subscriptions are not an option for those of us who are not pastors or otherwise have annual book allowances.
Then don't pay for the subscription.That is indeed the plan, Mark.
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Graham Criddle said:
Hi Gordon
Gordon Walker said:It's not at all clear to me whether I will required - after having bought it oughtright - to transfer to a subscription to retain it, or if not, how long what I've just bought will last since updates seem to be promised only to the subscription model.
In Mark's post that started this thread he said:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Will I be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future? What about all the books I’ve already bought?
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment. Your books are your books. Subscriptions are for those who want access to the latest improvements, which aim to help you uncover deeper insights in less time.
Does this clarify or does it still leave you with concerns?
Graham
Unfortunately no, because it offers no assurance about the future of the product with which I access the content. If there are no updates, bug-fixes, support for new formats, then the non-maintained product with inevitably decline. Since no company will indefinitely maintain two business models (and Mark explicitly said they're still wondering what to do about that), moving to a subscription model almost invariably puts an end-of-life on the purchase model. Therefore, it is no time to make, what is for me, a significant investment in it.
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As long as you keep your expectations low, Smart search is a nice feature, AFAICS (It's not ChatGPT).
There is one annoyance, though. Since the service is metered, it would be nice to have a real time "fuel gauge" to see how much you've used each month; a warning when you hit 80 percent could be an unexpectedly unpleasant surprise in some research contexts.
As for subscriptions, how about a "lease-to-buy" model: I'll pay my monthly subscription to allow the development and refinement of new (and existing) features, and then every two years (or so) I can have the option to purchase the "finished" product (at a discount because of the payments on the monthly subscription). Your cash flow is intact, and I can, in the end, have the software resident on my computer.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Would you prefer to have a one-time purchase, fully-offline, no-online-services, no-included-updates model?
Yes[:)]
A perpetual license with an option for subscription to online and specialty (small user base and more expensive to build) features seems like a win/win for all.
I have been using Logos since the Libronix days and have watched:
- great features disappear (such as the dynamic biblical people diagrams tool that was reduced to media);
- and features losing important capability (such as styles in custom highlighting palettes no longer showing an identifiable icon in context menus, but now using a generic icon);
- and features (finally) work smart (like simpler searching syntax alongside faceted searching in L10)
- and ...(I'm sure you've seen a nearly endless list of requested features)
My point is that there is no doubt in my mind that it is a big challenge to keep on top of the demands of a huge user base with differing requirements for using the software. A single monolithic model isn't financially viable nor beneficial.
I'm willing to pay for features that benefit me, but I won't pay a subscription for tools that I need to use for the rest of my life. I rent tools when I only need them once or twice. Otherwise, I save up to buy them, which is why I own a backhoe and dump truck for personal use.[:O] BTW, I've spent about as much on Logos as either of those equipment purchases.
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Mark Allison said:scooter said:Andrew Loney said:
Subscriptions are not an option for those of us who are not pastors or otherwise have annual book allowances.
Then don't pay for the subscription.The point isn't whether or not to subscribe, but whether perpetual licenses will continue to be available alongside subscriptions. I've already elaborated on this so won't repeat here.
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Bob Venem said:
As long as you keep your expectations low, Smart search is a nice feature, AFAICS (It's not ChatGPT).
For some of us, this is not a low expectation, but what we prefer. Some of us are not a fan of the ChatGPT fake human interaction, with answers from everywhere and who knows where. We prefer what we might consider straight answers, from the materials that we have and do know.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Andrew Loney said:
[The point isn't whether or not to subscribe, but whether perpetual licenses will continue to be available alongside subscriptions. I've already elaborated on this so won't repeat here.
I think that's already been answered:
"No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment."0 -
Mark Allison said:
You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment."
Understood.
What hasn't been decided (as best as I can tell) is how or even whether access to purchased features will continue to be available without a subscription.
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I agree this needs to be answered.0
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Mark Allison said:Andrew Loney said:
[The point isn't whether or not to subscribe, but whether perpetual licenses will continue to be available alongside subscriptions. I've already elaborated on this so won't repeat here.
I think that's already been answered:
"No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment."I, over time, will want to buy more books. I went into L with the expectation that over time I will buy books I need, many newly minted, + unavailable when I came aboard at L3. I expect L to update my rig so I can purchase new materials. I realize I may have to pay for a new permanent license down the road to accomplish this.
I do not use enough of L to justify a monthly payment. These days in Canadian $, the exchange costs me 35% more. 9.99 >> 13.50
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danwdoo said:
What I am not excited about is any resources being included in that subscription.
There's important nuance to what books we're including in our software subscriptions. You can think of these subscriptions as the evolution of our existing feature sets. Increasingly over the last several major releases, we've been putting books in the feature sets, because those books are essential for enabling features to work. Features are powered by a combination of data (and media) sets and books.
We are not putting books into these feature sets to satisfy your content needs. Rather, we want to ensure that you can have a good experience with the software and its various features. And we're not really charging extra for including "a library" in these feature sets. The aim to just to ensure that many of the features aren't nonfunctional without a separate purchase.
We totally understand that most customers want to (a) control what's in their libraries and (b) purchase and own a perpetual license to it. We intend to continue to support that model for the foreseeable future. You shouldn't consider the inclusion of some Lexham and public domain content in our software subscriptions to be at odds with that, since the aim of the included content is simply to enable content-dependent functionality so everyone can have a good out-of-the-box experience.
I hope this helps to clarify a bit why there are more books in our feature sets than we've included in the past.
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Andrew Loney said:Mark Allison said:
You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment."
Understood.
What hasn't been decided (as best as I can tell) is how or even whether access to purchased features will continue to be available without a subscription.
We have no plans to stop respecting existing perpetual licenses to data sets, media sets, interactives, features, etc. (i.e., feature set licenses). What this thread has been focused on is how much longer we will continue to extend new perpetual licenses to feature sets. There are, of course, times when some features get retired entirely, but that's a separate issue and quite infrequent.
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Jonathan Davis said:
One thing that has not been addressed is Mobile Ed. I know there is a subscription there, but will that be changing? I enjoy the courses quite a bit. They are quite costly however, and I would like a way to choose a subscription where I can pick the courses I want for a given time period.
Thanks for the feedback. We're definitely open to including Mobile Ed in the subscription. I'll discuss this with the team.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
This would be critically important to me. Without knowing more, I'm inclined to say that it could be a deal-breaker issue for whether or not I continue investing in the Logos ecosystem.
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Phil Gons (Logos) said:Andrew Loney said:Mark Allison said:
You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment."
Understood.
What hasn't been decided (as best as I can tell) is how or even whether access to purchased features will continue to be available without a subscription.
We have no plans to stop respecting existing perpetual licenses to data sets, media sets, interactives, features, etc. (i.e., feature set licenses). What this thread has been focused on is how much longer we will continue to extend new perpetual licenses to feature sets. There are, of course, times when some features get retired entirely, but that's a separate issue and quite infrequent.
Thank you for this clarification. I don't think it's been obvious in this thread that the question was solely regarding new licenses. Also, the question still remains whether (at least some) improved or new features would be made available in the future without subscription.
Thank you for your time listening and responding
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I've been using Logos Connect, which ends in June, and I don't know if I need to continue using it or if I need to purchase the full features. Is Logos Connect included with Logos Pro? Or are they parallel subscriptions? Or does the Full feature have a special benefit even if I subscribe to Logos Connect if it will continue after the release of Logos 11 or the Logos Pro covers it?
Blessings in Christ.
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Thanks, John.
As someone who has been with Logos since October of 2009, now Faithlife, and has the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, I agree the AI for me doesn't make any sense. Essentially, I would be paying to search my own Library. I looked at the total money spent on my Library over the years and it is $5,869. If all that was on a bookshelf, well, that would take up a lot of room
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Gordon Walker said:Graham Criddle said:
Hi Gordon
Gordon Walker said:It's not at all clear to me whether I will required - after having bought it oughtright - to transfer to a subscription to retain it, or if not, how long what I've just bought will last since updates seem to be promised only to the subscription model.
In Mark's post that started this thread he said:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Will I be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future? What about all the books I’ve already bought?
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment. Your books are your books. Subscriptions are for those who want access to the latest improvements, which aim to help you uncover deeper insights in less time.
Does this clarify or does it still leave you with concerns?
Graham
Unfortunately no, because it offers no assurance about the future of the product with which I access the content. If there are no updates, bug-fixes, support for new formats, then the non-maintained product with inevitably decline. Since no company will indefinitely maintain two business models (and Mark explicitly said they're still wondering what to do about that), moving to a subscription model almost invariably puts an end-of-life on the purchase model. Therefore, it is no time to make, what is for me, a significant investment in it.
What you're missing, Gordon, is that selling perpetual licenses to digital content requires ongoing access to the software to access that content. We have no plans to move away from selling perpetually licensed content or limiting it only to paying subscribers. So ongoing access to purchased content is absolutely essential.
We would, then, have a dual business model:
- Software: free and paid levels monetized via subscription (while continuing to honor existing licenses we've already sold)
- Content: perpetually licensed content that you can access in perpetuity via that software (based on your combination of free, perpetual, and subscription feature set licenses)
I tried to tease that out in this earlier reply.
"We make the majority of our money selling digital books, and it would be foolish for us to put that at risk. Ensuring that you (a) can access your existing content library and (b) feel confident to continue to build it on our platform (and encourage others to do the same!) is absolutely essential to our continued success as a business. We are fully committed to ensuring that that never changes. Logos desktop, web, and mobile will be continually updated with bug fixes and maintenance support to ensure they work on the latest operating systems and browsers, and you won't need a subscription to continue to access your content libraries or existing licenses."
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Phil Gons (Logos) said:
We would, then, have a dual business model:
- Software: free and paid levels monetized via subscription (while continuing to honor existing licenses we've already sold)
- Content: perpetually licensed content that you can access in perpetuity via that software (based on your combination of free, perpetual, and subscription feature set licenses)
This is a critical statement that I believe touches directly on the concerns of the move to a subscription model. Not very many companies who move to the subscription model have demonstrated a willingness to honor their existing perpetual licenses such as you're describing.
I am very happy to see your commitment to maintain access to our purchased feature-sets along with our purchased books.
That is no small promise.I'm wondering whether there will be an option to purchase feature-set improvements for those of us who don't wish to subscribe?
Again, thank you for your time.
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Re the “Pro” future - here are my prognostications, worth about as much as that 5-syllable word might imply … I gather that Logos planners are still working on all this … if clarification about my guesses / recommendations here is available, I’d appreciate it!
I read the info posted here thus far, to mean the “Pro” subscription will gradually (over a couple-year cycle) release new features, likely in a barely-post-beta form. Thus the “pro” users are essentially “gamma testers”.
Then, as I read it, a “package” of these features (as we are all used to seeing) ie L11, L12 etc, will be released every couple of years - and the “new” features will likely be more bulletproof since the pro users will have guinea-pigged them out.
The benefits to Logos the company are obvious - they get “paid twice” for new feature release - gradually by “Pro” subscribers and then again during the package release times. And of course the Pro subscribers also get AI cloud features.
I’d further guess that the “basic tier” for Pro will be the AI stuff since that’s its core justification. The next (or alternate) level would be the full cloud emulation of the PC version (at least as close as the current online version comes). Those two levels might be independently selectable. To that, they could add some subsets of the various tradition / metal levels (maybe all of them?).
My wild guess is that the max subscription price would likely be at least $250/mo, and maybe as high as $400-500/mo, for the “Ultimate” package (if they offer that) - or for multiple-tradition Portfolio levels.
Of course I have absolutely no inside knowledge - I’m just thinking how I might structure it from a coding and marketing standpoint if I were them, leveraging their existing (pretty amazing) sales tools to best advantage.
That approach, from my perspective, would be wonderful for all concerned. Those who want AI can get it but others don’t pay hidden costs for it. Those who want the shiny new stuff quickly can get it and test it. Those who prefer buying packages on a slower cycle get more mature products. And Logos makes more money by selling things twice. Win win win.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Jim Dean said:
Re the “Pro” future - here are my prognostications, worth about as much as that 5-syllable word might imply … I gather that Logos planners are still working on all this … if clarification about my guesses / recommendations here is available, I’d appreciate it!
I read the info posted here thus far, to mean the “Pro” subscription will gradually (over a couple-year cycle) release new features, likely in a barely-post-beta form. Thus the “pro” users are essentially “gamma testers”.
Then, as I read it, a “package” of these features (as we are all used to seeing) ie L11, L12 etc, will be released every couple of years - and the “new” features will likely be more bulletproof since the pro users will have guinea-pigged them out.
The benefits to Logos the company are obvious - they get “paid twice” for new feature release - gradually by “Pro” subscribers and then again during the package release times. And of course the Pro subscribers also get AI cloud features.
I’d further guess that the “basic tier” for Pro will be the AI stuff since that’s its core justification. The next (or alternate) level would be the full cloud emulation of the PC version (at least as close as the current online version comes). Those two levels might be independently selectable. To that, they could add some subsets of the various tradition / metal levels (maybe all of them?).
My wild guess is that the max subscription price would likely be at least $250/mo, and maybe as high as $400-500/mo, for the “Ultimate” package (if they offer that) - or for multiple-tradition Portfolio levels.
Of course I have absolutely no inside knowledge - I’m just thinking how I might structure it from a coding and marketing standpoint if I were them, leveraging their existing (pretty amazing) sales tools to best advantage.
That approach, from my perspective, would be wonderful for all concerned. Those who want AI can get it but others don’t pay hidden costs for it. Those who want the shiny new stuff quickly can get it and test it. Those who prefer buying packages on a slower cycle get more mature products. And Logos makes more money by selling things twice. Win win win.
I'm reading this more as Logos Pro will be the only model to get new features moving forward. There will be no Logos 11 or 12. It's Logos Pro for new features or be locked into Logos 10 or below feature sets.
If there are no plans to make features purchasable outside of Logos Pro then that means if you cancel your subscription 5 years from now your feature set will be rolled back to the previous perpetual license you had. If this is the plan, then I'm not a fan. I'd like a perpetual option in addition to the subscription or have the ability to lock in features after a certain amount of time being on the subscription.
For example, if I subscribe for 12 months then it unlocks features ABC permanently. If I subscribe for 24 months then it unlocks features XYZ permanently even if I unsubscribe.
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Phil Gons (Logos) said:
You can think of these subscriptions as the evolution of our existing feature sets. Increasingly over the last several major releases, we've been putting books in the feature sets, because those books are essential for enabling features to work.
With all due respect, this is not a viable comparison. When books were included in purchasable feature sets, those of us who already owned the books did not need to pay again for them. In this situation, customers who own the books are being forced to pay for them, not once, but perpetually. In my opinion this is not acceptable. I get there may be a discount for customers at the beginning who already own the full feature set of Logos 10, but the whole situation seems concerning to me. How long will the discount be offered? What about people who purchase the books after starting the subscription? Do they still have to pay for renting the books even after they own them? Including the books permanently in the subscription simply does not make sense. The price of the subscription should adjust downward as the books are owned/purchased. Otherwise have a subscription option that does not include resources. Until this situation is clarified, you will always have users complaining about being forced to pay twice for the same resources.
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Mark, here is the burning question that probably most of us have, who are not interested in AI and not interested in any form of subscriptions … ie probably the majority of your existing user base …
Will Logos continue to release non-subscription packages every 2-3 years that incorporate new features which are not cloud-reliant, as well as bug fixes?
If so, as one of those people, I’m happy (see my longer prognostications post). If not, I feel betrayed. I‘ve been using L since it first came out on CD’s in the mid-90’s, and have spent over $28,000 on it (14k titles). I’m retired now on fixed income and cannot afford subscriptions, and don’t want to be a “gamma tester”. Selah
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Jim Dean said:
Will Logos continue to release non-subscription packages every 2-3 years that incorporate new features which are not cloud-reliant, as well as bug fixes?
If so, as one of those people, I’m happy (see my longer prognostications post). If not, I feel betrayed. I‘ve been using L since it first came out on CD’s in the mid-90’s, and have spent over $28,000 on it (14k titles). I’m retired now on fixed income and cannot afford subscriptions, and don’t want to be a “gamma tester”.
Jim has framed my concerns better than I could myself. I have the disposable income to spend a fair amount on Logos resources - but I'm also at a time in my life where I'm doing my best to avoid picking up new recurring charges.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
,
I get there may be a discount for customers at the beginning who already own the full feature set of Logos 10, but the whole situation seems concerning to me. How long will the discount be offered? What about people who purchase the books after starting the subscription? Do they still have to pay for renting the books even after they own them? Including the books permanently in the subscription simply does not make sense. The price of the subscription should adjust downward as the books are owned/purchased. Otherwise have a subscription option that does not include resources. Until this situation is clarified, you will always have users complaining about being forced to pay twice for the same resources.
Phil earlier said that the books are either public domain or in-house (Lexham) and that they are not really being taken into account in the cost of the subscription.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Jim Dean said:
Will Logos continue to release non-subscription packages every 2-3 years that incorporate new features which are not cloud-reliant, as well as bug fixes?
New features have not been addressed, but in response to this feedback, Phil said earlier that they do not have intentions of dropping the perpetual license for some features in the future. But Logos has already decoupled bug fixes and software versions from the new releases, which is why you are on Logos 33.x not 10. They have committed to continue making updates for OS upgrades and bug fixes for existing customers because the software engine itself is, and always has been, free.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Aaron Hamilton said:Phil Gons (Logos) said:
You can think of these subscriptions as the evolution of our existing feature sets. Increasingly over the last several major releases, we've been putting books in the feature sets, because those books are essential for enabling features to work.
With all due respect, this is not a viable comparison. When books were included in purchasable feature sets, those of us who already owned the books did not need to pay again for them. In this situation, customers who own the books are being forced to pay for them, not once, but perpetually. In my opinion this is not acceptable. I get there may be a discount for customers at the beginning who already own the full feature set of Logos 10, but the whole situation seems concerning to me. How long will the discount be offered? What about people who purchase the books after starting the subscription? Do they still have to pay for renting the books even after they own them? Including the books permanently in the subscription simply does not make sense. The price of the subscription should adjust downward as the books are owned/purchased. Otherwise have a subscription option that does not include resources. Until this situation is clarified, you will always have users complaining about being forced to pay twice for the same resources.
We're still working out the details of the discount / recent BP owner pricing, and we'll share more when we have that finalized. We definitely want to give plenty of consideration to the value delivery difference between those who are brand new to Logos and those who have been around a lot time and have made significant investments.
On the topic of including books, what if the price were the same whether we added this feature-enabling content? IOW, if the content were added "for free" without raising the price for the subscriptions, would you feel differently about paying twice?
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Phil Gons (Logos) said:
What you're missing, Gordon, is that selling perpetual licenses to digital content requires ongoing access to the software to access that content
To be fair, it's not that I'm missing that, rather that is my whole point. The question is whether there will be ongoing access to the software to those not on a subscription track.
Phil Gons (Logos) said:We have no plans to move away from selling perpetually licensed content or limiting it only to paying subscribers
It's the vagueness of the, "have no plans", that concerns me. If I were an established customer it would probably offer comfort, but I'm considering stepping into this ecosystem for the first time. As a pastor my Bible software sits at the centre of my daily workflow and is a long term commitment (I have been using Bibleworks for 14 years). Of course, no company can give ironclad commitments that far in advance, but I see a company whose whole model is in flux which makes me wonder whether this a time to commit, rather than wait and see what shakes out.
Phil Gons (Logos) said:We are fully committed to ensuring that that never changes. Logos desktop, web, and mobile will be continually updated with bug fixes and maintenance support to ensure they work on the latest operating systems and browsers, and you won't need a subscription to continue to access your content libraries or existing licenses
This is, by far, the strongest statement I have seen on this thread (I must have missed it before, there are quite a few posts!) I think if you were leading, unequivocally with commitment's like that I would have more assurance. However, I'm not even sure about where that sits with the other things being said.
Phil Gons (Logos) said:
We would, then, have a dual business model:
- Software: free and paid levels monetized via subscription (while continuing to honor existing licenses we've already sold)
- Content: perpetually licensed content that you can access in perpetuity via that software (based on your combination of free, perpetual, and subscription feature set licenses)
How certain is this to be your model going forward? in the original post, in response to the question, "Does this mean Logos will be subscription-only? Will I be able to buy Logos in the future?" - the answer is neither 'yes', nor, 'no'. Rather it is, "Logos subscriptions aren’t new", this sounds defensive and equivocal. Why can't you simply say 'yes, it will be', or, 'no, it won't'? The response continues, "we’re now embracing subscription for our software", without defining what "embracing" something which you've been doing for years could possibly mean other than being exclusively subscription based. When it says, "We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets", I can only assume that you don't really know what direction you're going in, and that this dual business model you're describing is only one of a number of options.
If there was a base level of clear, unequivocal, commitments about what I could expect after a purchase of Logos 10, or even just a straight answer to whether or not it was going to be subscription only, it would clarify my thinking. Too much seems to be up in the air.
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I don't see why Logos can't offer a base subscription option with just AI services. Renting resources on top of that could be optional. A basic 500 resources could be recommended and included as the default, with personalizable options to eliminate the resource rental from the subscription cost or add to it for a higher monthly subscription cost. Including the option to receive immediate feature updates/upgrades could be another optional addition to the subscription cost. Then, feature set purchases could be offered for those who do not want to subscribe for immediate feature updates.
The bottom line is that Logos is trying to overhaul things way too much with one broad stroke. Users need options. This will become apparent sooner or later. But for the sake of everyone, I hope Logos realizes this sooner (before the exodus begins) and presents options in the Fall right away when the subscription plans are officially released.0 -
If the books were included as a free rental with the subscription, that would change things in my opinion; yes. One could not make the case that one is paying twice if the resources are free. Still I'm not entirely sure how they could be free, as the company will still have to pay for the materials. So the costs will be passed down to customers somehow or another.
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Jim Dean said:
Will Logos continue to release non-subscription packages every 2-3 years that incorporate new features which are not cloud-reliant, as well as bug fixes?
"Packages" is a bit ambiguous, since Logos is made up of three parts:
- The free software applications
- The feature sets to enable premium functionality
- The libraries of books
Here's our current thinking on each:
1. Software: Since most users are on the same version of the software and we regularly release bug fixes and maintenance improvements, everyone would continue to get those regardless of whether they're a free user, a subscriber, or a base package owner not on a subscription.
2. Feature Sets: This is how we grant access to the premium features not included in the free software applications. What we're currently exploring is moving new feature set licensing to subscription only (while continue to respect users' existing feature set licenses), though it's possible that there could be a smaller place for ongoing perpetually licensed feature sets for some offline features. That's the major topic of this thread.
3. Libraries: We plan to continue to offer libraries via our existing perpetual licensing model along with dynamic pricing. We haven't yet decided if we'll refresh them every two years, move to an annual release, or something else.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
If the books were included as a free rental with the subscription, that would change things in my opinion; yes. One could not make the case that one is paying twice if the resources are free. Still I'm not entirely sure how they could be free, as the company will still have to pay for the materials. So the costs will be passed down to customers somehow or another.
Thanks for following up. The content we'd include will mostly have no incremental costs to us.
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Phil Gons (Logos) said:
2. Feature Sets: This is how we grant access to the premium features not included in the free software applications. What we're currently exploring is moving new feature set licensing to subscription only (while continue to respect users' existing feature set licenses), though it's possible that there could be a smaller place for ongoing perpetually licensed feature sets for some offline features. That's the major topic of this thread.
This is indeed the main issue.
Over the last few years and with the Logos version now in the double digits (10), I have sometimes wondered to myself: are they running out of new features to add? It must be a challenge to continuously come up with new ideas for features to develop and implement every two years. I feel like we've already passed the point of diminishing returns on new data sets...
(I still don't want to subscribe just to get AI features.)
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Justin Gatlin said:
Logos has already decoupled bug fixes and software versions from the new releases, which is why you are on Logos 33.x not 10. They have committed to continue making updates for OS upgrades and bug fixes for existing customers because the software engine itself is, and always has been, free.
This seems to be quite a critical point which has not been apparent to me up to now.
- Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
- Do those who stayed on Logos 9 still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
- If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
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Thanks Phil and I do understand what you are saying (as far as you've gone with it).
Let me try to pin this down a bit.
"New features" might be classified in three categories:
1. Those that naturally and readily *could* (from a programming and horsepower perspective) be incorporated in the local-PC engine+dataset, without requiring a subscription, but activated alternatively by "packaged" releases (a la L11, L12) every 2-3 years.
2. Those that absolutely *require* online cloud support (LLM AI) with lots of CPU horsepower, and naturally would be offered only via usage-metered subscription.
3. Those that might take a simplified local-PC form, but could be enhanced by online AI.
My concern and core question is relative to #1 ... have y'all FIRMLY DECIDED yet whether you will (essentially) ALWAYS include new features in category #1 in the local-PC engine? If so, hurrah! If not ... then imo you're pulling the rug out from longtime users.
MANY OF US DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO BE ONLINE to use the software.
I truly, sincerely hope and request that y'all take a path that provides offline use of new features that are practical to implement on the local-PC.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Exactly right. It's an aid, not an answer.
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Sean said:
This is indeed the main issue. [feature policy]
Phil earlier called it "feature gate" ... more like Featuregate. Bad humor.
So, far we're on p20 and we seem to be at 'all unpaid-for features (existing and new) are headed for subscription (but they're still thinking)'.
I'm personally ok with that ... I ended my feature-itis maybe 4 years back. If they want subscribers to fund my Logos, fine by me. Well, that is what it works out to, if their vision works. Their older visions didn't.
But what DOES concern me, is younger pastors. A gentleman mentioned this, a ways back. Bible software, early on, locked digital books to resellers (as also Amazon). You needed to keep a close eye on 'how much' and company survival.
The new pastor now also needs to keep an eye on subscription price (like apartment rent). And changing content. And can a new owner ... well, start thinking again.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Phil Gons (Logos) said:
Thanks for following up. The content we'd include will mostly have no incremental costs to us.
That's good to hear, and that makes sense. I have no qualms about constructing a base package of resources to get new users going in a way that would not generate significant costs to the company. In fact that sounds like a fantastic idea. It also does not diminish the value of purchasing the materials, as owning a resource is obviously not the same thing as getting a free rental. For example, if someone were to unsubscribe for a year, they would still be able to access those basic resources if they have been purchased.
The situation with the feature sets seems a bit more complex. I imagine one possible solution may be to offer a credit corresponding to how much money one has spent or will spend on those sets. Future feature set purchases could be treated the same as past feature set purchases in this regard: subscribers could receive a discount on the purchase of feature sets, and purchasers of feature sets could receive a credit towards the subscription packages. Again, the discount/credit would not be 100%, as owning something is obviously different from purchasing it. In my opinion, this presents a win/win. Users would have options, and Logos would have the opportunity to get paid twice for the same features. However, users would be paying twice of their own accord and with full knowledge of the situation. For example, a pastor taking a one-year sabbatical may want to purchase a feature set for their time off while temporarily canceling their subscription. Every time there is an interruption in the subscription, the Logos software would only cease to include the features that have not been purchased.
In conclusion, I would like to thank you for taking the time to address my thoughts and concerns. I have an enormous amount of respect and appreciation for your willingness to engage in this type of dialogue. It is, however, not an exaggeration to say that there is a large percentage of users who are very concerned about this transition. So, since feedback is being requested, my advice would be to tread gently. I believe it's possible for this transition to happen smoothly. But I also think it could very easily be quite a rocky one.0
