Will We Lose Full Features Set in the Future?
Point blank question: Will we lose full features set in the future? Some of us have invested in the full features set for Logos 10 and previous versions. Will we lose those in the future even though we’ve purchased them to own them? Some say we might lose them others say they might change a bit others say that based on much people use them they might get retired, etc. What’s the guarantee that what we have purchased to own will get replaced or not maintained anymore to force people into a subscription some don’t want or can’t afford?
It seems like many at Faithlife are not on the same page and therefore are not giving a straight answer. Can we all get on board on giving one answer, please.
Thanks!
DAL
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DAL said:
Point blank question: Will we lose full features set in the future? Some of us have invested in the full features set for Logos 10 and previous versions. Will we lose those in the future even though we’ve purchased them to own them?
The consistent response is that we will not lose access to current content that we own e.g. L10 Features and books e.g. Sermon Assistant with AI was built so that we retain Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager, and one can switch between Smart Search and Search.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:DAL said:
Point blank question: Will we lose full features set in the future? Some of us have invested in the full features set for Logos 10 and previous versions. Will we lose those in the future even though we’ve purchased them to own them?
The consistent response is that we will not lose access to current content that we own e.g. L10 Features and books e.g. Sermon Assistant with AI was built so that we retain Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager, and one can switch between Smart Search and Search.
See this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/221630.aspx
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DAL said:
See this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/221630.aspx
If the concern arises from loss of Faithlife Assistant and Handouts, the former was a poor relation to AI Search and I think that one can still access created handouts. So there could be a loss of features, but not major ones.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I can't look up the thread where Mark announced this, but access to created handouts has been taken away too. I think that happened around the end of June/early July.
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DAL said:
Some say we might lose them others say they might change a bit others say that based on much people use them they might get retired, etc.
DAL said:It seems like many at Faithlife are not on the same page and therefore are not giving a straight answer. Can we all get on board on giving one answer, please.
(emphasis mine)
Who are the 'some' and who are the 'many'? It seems to me that Mark, Phil, and Bradley have all been consistently saying the same thing (over and over): we will not lose access to what we already own. Can they give a guarantee that Logos will never, ever remove any of these features going forward? I don't see how they can, and I would not believe them if they made such a statement.
As MJ said in the other thread, losing (and gaining) features is part of the evolution of software. I am satisfied that the Logos features I have paid for to date will remain mine. I am also at peace with the probability of losing a paid feature or two due to the continual development and maintenance of the software. However, saying that I am at peace with the possibility of losing features does not mean I don't expect a reasonable explanation from Logos if it happens.
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DAL said:
It seems like many at Faithlife are not on the same page ...
I think the problem is not tending to exact wording, for an exegetical market, that has large investments at risk.
Folks point to the initial post as clear. Not. And so,, 'somewhere' in the 20 .. oops ... 24 pages are clarifications. Then, you have your 'gee, they said it again, and again!' ... as if new readers are in a novel ... don't skip pages!
From my take on the initial post, after a once-again:
- You'll be able to continue purchasing features, that were offered up thru Logos 10. New customers can purchase the various RIs, search tagging, etc
- You're done on your books being tagged, absent a subscription. What you got now, well, that's it. Sure they promised, when you bought them.
And more.
Part of the problem is their use of the word 'content' vs 'new and improved'. There's quite a bit of wiggle room in-between.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I understand that they're trying to work out the details for their new subscription model, but I think they could allay a lot of concerns if by committing to a few things that won't change, and then communicating them consistently. Phil made a comment in this thread that I thought was very helpful:
Phil Gons (Logos) said:Here's our current thinking on each:
1. Software: Since most users are on the same version of the software and we regularly release bug fixes and maintenance improvements, everyone would continue to get those regardless of whether they're a free user, a subscriber, or a base package owner not on a subscription.
2. Feature Sets: This is how we grant access to the premium features not included in the free software applications. What we're currently exploring is moving new feature set licensing to subscription only (while continue to respect users' existing feature set licenses), though it's possible that there could be a smaller place for ongoing perpetually licensed feature sets for some offline features. That's the major topic of this thread.
3. Libraries: We plan to continue to offer libraries via our existing perpetual licensing model along with dynamic pricing. We haven't yet decided if we'll refresh them every two years, move to an annual release, or something else.
If FaithLife would make a firm commitment to the policies Phil outlines under #1 and #3, it would go a long way towards making me feel more comfortable. I can live without a new "all the beverages in the Bible" feature. But if I could lose the ability to do basic research with my library sometime down the line, then I'm going to have to go somewhere else.
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DMB said:
You're done on your books being tagged, absent a subscription. What you got now, well, that's it
Are you saying? : I do not get a subscription, so future books purchased in 2025, -26, etc. will not have tagging? So -plunk- I just get the book + Bible verses, subscripts are not blue hot reads.
I may have missed such in Mark's initial post. What words-of-Mark lead you to say this?
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scooter .. I'm just illustrating, you need to read the next 23 ( 24?) pages ... Mark says the books you bought ... your 'content' ... nothing about their tagging and what kind of future support.
Just keep reading ... I'm sure there's something somewhere ....
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DAL said:
Will we lose
The answer to a great degree depends on your definition of, "lose."
I'm pretty sure the consumer's definition is not the same as Logos' definition, and I say that based on experience. ("Updates are free, upgrades are not," or words to that effect that were shared with me after a surprise way back in L5/6 era.)
In other words, will Logos simply cancel your access to one of the L10 FFS features? No. Absolutely not. I completely trust them to keep their word on that.
But what about the situation where a feature is dropped and replaced with a similar but better one? Or maybe not dropped but changed 'significantly'? What if two of the features are rebuilt into a single, more comprehensive one?
I'm willing to bet we won't have access to the replacement or the upgraded feature without the subscription. I can't see a scenario where it makes sense from their perspective to continue to support a feature that has been dropped or changed. By their definition, I didn't 'lose' a feature. By mine, I did.
So, how many of the current pieces of the FFS will remain unchanged...and for how long? Those are the questions for which we aren't getting answers (and I doubt solid answers are even available to the Logos folks defending this move...but the questions are real nonetheless).
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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DMB said:
scooter .. I'm just illustrating, you need to read the next 23 ( 24?) pages ... Mark says the books you bought ... your 'content' ... nothing about their tagging and what kind of future support.
Just keep reading ... I'm sure there's something somewhere ....
The tagging is part of the content of the book. You aren't losing what you bought, except in the most extreme examples. If they hadn't told us they killed Faithlife Assistant, I never would have noticed. Just pretend Logos 11 came out and the cost is way higher than you want to pay, so you don't upgrade. You can still get the free version, run your current features and get OS updates. Everything is fine, the world is not on fire, and you can keep using Logos.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Justin, you're illustrating the problem. See how you slipped by the wriggle-room ... future tagging on owned books for owned features? Not to mention future reference completion (owed) on owned books. Or future tagging on new books for owned features.
Logos isn't just software, features and books. Lots of interaction up for grabs.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Justin, you're illustrating the problem. See how you slipped by the wriggle-room ... future tagging on owned books for owned features? Not to mention future reference completion (owed) on owned books. Or future tagging on new books for owned features.
Logos isn't just software, features and books. Lots of interaction up for grabs.
I read your reply to me above. This reply by you to Justin explains what you are trying to get at.
Reminds me of the blues song:
The Sky is Crying
Canchu see the tears roll on down the street
xxxxxx
Hopefully, it will be tears of joy + relief
Paid tender + pure for our steadfast belief
xxxxxx
But, you ain't believing',DMB!!!
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DMB said:
I think the problem is not tending to exact wording, for an exegetical market, that has large investments at risk.
Folks point to the initial post as clear. Not. And so,, 'somewhere' in the 20 .. oops ... 24 pages are clarifications. Then, you have your 'gee, they said it again, and again!' ... as if new readers are in a novel ... don't skip pages!
From my take on the initial post, after a once-again:
- You'll be able to continue purchasing features, that were offered up thru Logos 10. New customers can purchase the various RIs, search tagging, etc
- You're done on your books being tagged, absent a subscription. What you got now, well, that's it. Sure they promised, when you bought them.
And more.
Part of the problem is their use of the word 'content' vs 'new and improved'. There's quite a bit of wiggle room in-between.
The problem Logos Bible Study is wrangling with is how to herd a loyal and invested bunch of customers who are used to working with a broad set of features through to a new reliable method of purchase. Namely, those in the past who have either bought their services and those who subscribed for their services.Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Can I get these subscriptions today?
One of the tiers of the forthcoming subscription will be called Logos Pro, and it will be aimed specifically at pastors. The full launch of these subscriptions won’t happen until later in the year, but if you own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set or subscribe to Faithlife Connect (excluding Starter and Mobile), you can get early access to Logos Pro today at a very special price.
Logos Pro includes most of the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, a library of more than 400 books to help you experience the power of Logos, and all the new features and improvements we’re developing for Logos 11. If you subscribe today, you’ll get five new features (Smart Search, Search Results Summaries, Summarization Sidebar, Sermon Assistant, and Instant Dark/Light Mode), and approximately once a quarter, we’ll add new and improved features to the subscription—not just this year, but every year.
These customers with varying expectations must be married into a new, yet-to-be-decided tiers of services. Getting this right is of paramount importance. As a long-time user of the software, I want all the features I've enjoyed through the years both resources and features to continue at their present level of service. AI is fluff to me. So at the end of the day, the most important issue is not how to roll out the next iteration, but it is how to fulfill the expectations of full feature set purchasers and FLConnect subscribers.
I'm not greedy or stubborn, I'm just accustomed to my Bible software functioning at a certain level for it to be accorded the title of my Bible software.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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scooter said:
But, you ain't believing',DMB!!!
No, my shock happened when they chopped the heads off the Catholic group ... we thought their bankruptcy lesson would have been enough. Then, lo and behold they tried again, this time basically letting it slowly starve. And then, throw some big bucks at church management and Christian teaching, only to repeat the whole process again. So much lost talent. Features are now their mantra (plus shady books, of course).
I don't doubt their sincerity and cheerleader talk. It's their inability to plan ahead and communicate.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The one relative that made it big in the corporate world gave me some avuncular advice: 'Never have too many balls in the air, [scooter].'
I would say: don't play ping-pong with a sledge hammer.
I need this L thang to work for me. For us.
L: don't wreck it.
We'll see, DMB.
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Aaron Sauer said:
[Nonsense.
Can we assume you missed out on buying ECC for completion in 2014? And now, more recent sets. 'Nonsense' is easy when you're not the recipient.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:Aaron Sauer said:
[Nonsense.
Can we assume you missed out on buying ECC for completion in 2014? And now, more recent sets. 'Nonsense' is easy when you're not the recipient.
There are better ways to voice your displeasure than by saying "Features are now their mantra (plus shady books, of course)."
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Aaron,Aaron Sauer said:DMB said:Aaron Sauer said:[Nonsense.
Can we assume you missed out on buying ECC for completion in 2014? And now, more recent sets. 'Nonsense' is easy when you're not the recipient.
There are better ways to voice your displeasure than by saying "Features are now their mantra (plus shady books, of course)."
Personal attacks are off-limits on these forums. Please avoid them. Thanks.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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Beloved Amodeo said:
Aaron,Aaron Sauer said:DMB said:Aaron Sauer said:[Nonsense.
Can we assume you missed out on buying ECC for completion in 2014? And now, more recent sets. 'Nonsense' is easy when you're not the recipient.
There are better ways to voice your displeasure than by saying "Features are now their mantra (plus shady books, of course)."
Personal attacks are off-limits on these forums. Please avoid them. Thanks.
It wasn't a personal attack and I stand by what I posted.
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Aaron Sauer said:Beloved Amodeo said:
Aaron,Aaron Sauer said:DMB said:Aaron Sauer said:[Nonsense.
Can we assume you missed out on buying ECC for completion in 2014? And now, more recent sets. 'Nonsense' is easy when you're not the recipient.
There are better ways to voice your displeasure than by saying "Features are now their mantra (plus shady books, of course)."
Personal attacks are off-limits on these forums. Please avoid them. Thanks.
It wasn't a personal attack and I stand by what I posted.
Not a personal attack, folks.
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I stand corrected. 'Mantra' describes sacred sayings.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Welll.... I'm late to the party... but I think Logos will do what's right by all this.They have proven (to me at least) that they try to be on the up and up and try to do the right thing.
When I came to Logos from WordSearch... I had many problems as others did. I won't go into details, but Logos reached out to me more than one, trying to make things right... and they did make things right. And I think they did that for other WordSearchers also. I don't think I am special at all.
Given that.... I don't think Logos will "short change" us as some is talking... as was said ... I think that's just "nonsense"! And until I'm proven wrong... I'll stand with that! [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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