Official: Thank you for your feedback on the next version of Logos

Thank you so much for your feedback on our announcement that we’ll be launching the next version of Logos as a subscription. We’ve had hundreds of comments and questions, and every single one is valuable to us.

Many of you have expressed concerns about this move, which we completely understand. I’ve been building my own Logos library for twenty-five years, and—like you—I want to be able to use it for the next twenty-five, too. So I understand why this is a big change, especially for those of you who are as heavily invested in your Logos library as I am. So let me recap some of the assurances that perhaps got lost in my initial thread.

Your investment in Logos is safe, and you’ll always be able to access your books for free. We’re 100% committed to continuing to provide free software to ensure you’ll always be able to read and interact with your books.
You won’t lose your existing feature sets when we move to subscription. If you’ve already invested in Logos Feature Sets, you won’t lose them when the next version of Logos launches. You’ll continue to be able to use the features you’ve paid for. And if you ever cancel a subscription, you’ll fall back to the features that you’ve previously purchased.
We’re not going to stop selling books and libraries. We love selling books as much as you love buying them, and we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling books and curated libraries. Our subscriptions contain a limited number of books to ensure the features work correctly, but they aren’t intended to replace the high-quality curated libraries that we’re continuing to offer.
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future. Unlike most software companies, we make our latest software available to everyone. Even if the last feature set you bought was Logos 4 in 2009 (or even Logos 1 in 1991!), you’ll continue to receive free app updates ensuring you can use Logos with future operating systems and books. You’ll even continue to receive bug fixes for free, too. Of course, if you’re not a subscriber, the latest features and upgrades will not be enabled for you, but you’ll be using the same core software as all our other customers.

Second, let me reiterate why we believe that a subscription is the best way to experience the next version of Logos:

More affordable. New users will have lower upfront costs and can try Logos with less commitment.
More advanced. We can continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for up to two years. That’s important at a time of rapid technological change.
More adaptable. It shortens the feedback loop, allowing us to tweak our improvements to ensure they solve your most important problems.
More powerful. We can include carefully integrated AI and other cloud-backed features, which have significant ongoing costs.

Many of you have told us that you understand these advantages, but you have a question: Will you be able to buy future versions of Logos instead of (or as well as!) subscribing to it?

We acknowledged that question in our original post, where we asked, “We’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you.” Many of you have made it clear to us that you would value this—some of you quite forcefully ;-). We have heard you loud and clear, and our team is collating all your feedback to ensure we’ve properly understood what you value from the option to purchase. We’re reading that feedback very thoughtfully. We want to find a solution that enables everyone to get the benefits of a subscription while also listening carefully to your desire to own the features outright.

One of the reasons we announced this plan now was to give us plenty of time to respond to your feedback before the full release without needing any handbrake turns or last-minute panics. So, while we won’t be offering a daily commentary, we’ll be giving regular updates from now until the fall. Over the course of those updates, we’ll confirm the migration plans for current subscribers, add more details about the other tiers we’ll be offering, share our plans for pricing and discounts for existing owners, and set out our thinking on a purchasable version.

In the meantime, we continue to value your feedback and look forward to hearing more from you.

P.S. We promised we’d keep adding value to Logos Pro because Logos Pro is about much more than the features we announced last week, which make up only about a third of the new features and improvements we plan to release in the fall.

Early next month, we’ll be adding a third Sermon Assistant to Logos Pro to generate sermon applications.
Smart Search will be coming to mobile next month, too.
A new feature called Insights will be coming to all three platforms in April or May (we've been testing it on web for a little while). Our beta testers have been excited about Insights because it brings quick access to commentaries, study Bibles, and related passages right into Bibles, giving you access to those books without needing to run a Passage Guide or set up a complex layout. It’s great for new users or even for old pros who need to look something up quickly.

Improvements like these (and more that I can’t tell you about yet!) make us excited about the possibilities of Logos Pro and the other subscription tiers. It’s so great to know that what we’re building can make an immediate difference in your ministry. That’s what drives us on.

Applications generator	Insights on desktop
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Comments

Steve Bentley

Thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to the new features. Cheers, Steve

Tim Hensler

WOW Mark. Thank you for this exciting update. Looking forward to the next generation of Logos.

Aaron Hamilton

I appreciate this announcement. Thank you!

MJ. Smith

Early next month, we’ll be adding a third Sermon Assistant to Logos Pro to generate sermon applications.

This dropped in beta yesterday evening. My evaluation is positive - it shows more maturity in the first draft than the first two features, the learning from experience shows.

Mark

Thanks, Mark. Excellent summary and thanks for listening.

Kiyah

Thank you for this update, Mark. Very clear and reassuring. And thank you for all of your hard work in collecting our feedback in various ways during your tenure to bring us new features and enhancements. You've been doing a great job.

Donovan R. Palmer

Well done.

I noticed in the mega thread there were a number of first ever posters on the forum. It made me think, why do we care so much about this topic? I think it is in part that if I stopped using another software product like Word, it would be an inconvenience, but not that impactful. On the other hand, I use Logos as part of my spiritual formation and studies. It is deeply impactful to me.

With this in mind, I can appreciate someone looking down the road and needing to stop their subscription for whatever life change reason, but facing a cliff edge of losing some features they have come to rely on. I think finding a way to have a fall back on features, whilst driving innovation through a subscription investment model, is likely within Logos' vision and mission of supporting the church through access to this technology, just as the base software is.

A few ideas for your Logos Pro value adds. As a lifetime Logos Now member I do like...

The several books that I can pick each month to own as part of my subscription.
The discount on Lexham resources.
The Faithlife Reward at the end of the year.
The immediate access to anything new rolled out. I was pleasantly surprised the morning when I got up and Logos 10 was ready to roll! 🙂

Going forward, how about...

A dedicated Logos Pro subscribers members forum to discuss and interact with management on the new features that are being rolled out?
What about making a place in new features of giving voice to these investors to weigh in on some of the development priorities? (i.e. we are planning to work on feature A or B, which would you prefer for us to place in the top spot?)
A dedicated help line to assist in any issues with new features, but also sales or special Logos Pro discounts on purchases?

In other words, treat us like investors or stock holders, but obviously retain the position that you are the experts.

In my view, this would inject a lot of energy back into the platform that we used to have. These investors and Logos Pro members are also some of your biggest promoters too... because they are passionate about the future of the product.

I think giving a glimpse of what is ahead in this post is brilliant. Who wants to wait two years to be able to use the next set of cool tools that we are going to get? Well done!

Graham Criddle

Thanks Mark - really helpful

Aaron Sauer

Really appreciate Mark & Phil.

James Johnson

After reading through this I am far more confident in logos now. I don't currently own the full feature set as I buy my base packages without them and rely on faithlife connect to have full access, mainly because I am on a fixed income, and secondly I am limited on my payment plans however, I would like to know, is it possible to purchase these full feature sets after the launch of the new logos? You make mention of rolling back when canceling a subscription, what if there is nothing to roll back on? - I think the ability to continue to purchase the current feature sets would be idea for those who would want to.

The new logos pro looks like its mostly geared towards those in ministry, like pastoral roles. Will you be making new features for the layman who just wants to advance their knowledge in the biblical study of the Word, like regular church members? The insights look promising, if I am correctly understanding it, that you can find information on a passage you're looking at, in a big commentary without having to comb or read through endless material to find what you wanted about the passage? ... That would be an excellent tool!

In my conclusion, I am far more relived about the new logos moving forward, and I was one of the "forceful" ;-) .

Thank you for the clarity.

scooter

A dedicated Logos Pro subscribers members forum to discuss and interact with management on the new features that are being rolled out?

What about making a place in new features of giving voice to these investors to weigh in on some of the development priorities? (i.e. we are planning to work on feature A or B, which would you prefer for us to place in the top spot?)

Implementation of these would concern me. This, to me, would be like my secular job was, creating tiers of more important people, then lesser mortals outside the portals.

I would be one of the less informed; I would have no one to email privately to find out what the Pros know: 'Hey, Insider, wassup?' This is because I know no one else using the rig. But some folks could use this private path. Now, we would have the Insiders, the More Informed Outsiders + the Uninformed Outsiders.

This is how the world works. My gut says don't do this.

Donovan R. Palmer

This is how the world works.

Oh, this could be the basis of a great debate, but that is not the point of this thread.

My objective is to suggest ideas to attract the forward investment Logos needs, so that there is a rising tide for all users.

What are your suggestions?

Matt Hamrick

I am still confused but I go through life like that.

scooter

What are your suggestions of value add to a premium service?

I have none. I will not be using Pro, as I don't need it.

We already have Beta testers + people with stars. They perform a great service + I thank them.

Two groups of Insiders is enough.

Ideas: put them in the forum. As an example, MJ does this. Anybody !!! can read + respond - which is my point.

I have no ideas because I read, highlight, write a few notes. Recently, I am using Look Up. All since I used to get discs mailed to me.

Bill McCarthy mentioned transparency. Donovan, your move would push against that.

Mattillo

As a FLC subscriber for years, when these new plans do go forward, my 3 favorite current perks are below. I hope they can be retained in some sort of way/shape/form:

1) 2% Back annually

2) 3 Faithlife Free Books & Lexham Discount Monthly

3) Mobile Ed Courses (I would love to see this expanded with maybe an old Blockbuster approach for the older folks here... a quota of rental courses that renews monthly/annually. The choice of courses would also need to be expanded as I've noticed from time to time that not all are available.

If I can be greedy, FLTV is dying. I would love for this new subscription model to help prop this up or maybe combine with someone like RightNowMedia or another one. For years people have asked for improvements to include a minor owned videos section but that has never come. If FLTV dies, can you maybe transfer these videos to Logos itself? I've purchased several films over the years but they only show on FLTV and finding them is a real pain.

Thank you

Beloved Amodeo

we’ll confirm the migration plans for current subscribers, add more details about the other tiers we’ll be offering, share our plans for pricing and discounts for existing owners, and set out our thinking on a purchasable version.

Thank you, Mark!

I am most interested in the details of this aspect of your review. I hope that the team is near to finalizing their decision regarding the same.

GregW

Thank you, Mark. I have subscribed, and feel that you probably need to hear from those of us who are in. I've given up reading the megathread because I found the tone rather unedifying, frankly. You, Phil and Bradley are to be commended for your measured, gracious and generous responses, some of you working on into the middle of the night.

There is also an organised campaign on Facebook from those who object to these changes. The language on some of the Facebook threads also borders on hysterical, with one of them even talking about a class action lawsuit.

I have subscribed because:

When I first bought into Logos, the business model concerned me - and still did until this announcement. Logos has ongoing costs for syncing, storing ever-increasing amounts of user content (notes, sermons, passage lists, prayer lists, personal books), and providing updates for bug fixes, security issues, etc. To this have been added ongoing costs for translation, and now AI. I see subscription as a way of ensuring these costs are covered. I have always been surprised Logos didn't make an ongoing charge for providing this facility in the past. The days when we bought software on a CD are long gone, and our connected world means that software needs constantly updating, which comes at a cost. The buy-it-and own-it-forever days are gone.
I'm not wild about AI, and have posted elsewhere about my concerns as to the way the tools we use shape our reading of Scripture. I also recognise, though, that we need to find ways of using these tools intelligently and wisely, and help one another to do so. I can better do that from the inside than by throwing rocks in from outside.
I trust the folks at Logos that I've interacted with, and have observed since 2009 how they do seek to put things right when they go wrong, and I rather resent the "hermeneutic of suspicion" that often prevails when these announcements are made. I did cancel my Logos Now subscription when I felt it ceased to offer me value. I also bought the Libronix Sermon File add-in that one user repeatedly brings up, but also recognise we now have something far better than that. Whilst a Private Equity buyout was a concern at the time, they protect their investment by growing the customer base, and a younger market is far more attuned to the direction they are going. I know issues like the EEC saga rightly concern some users, but I don't think that things like handouts or Faithlife Assistant can really be used to demonstrate bad faith.
I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that new features should be rolled out regularly, rather than a "big bang" every two years, so that I can take them on board in a more measured fashion, and make better use of them. I've never even touched some of the new features from Logos 10 - or 9 for that matter.

Other thoughts:

I am retired and on a fixed income, and didn't have a book budget from a church when I was a working Pastor, but I value the product and what it is able to contribute to the Church. I therefore used my own money to invest in the toolset.
We are a community of exegetes, so every word of an announcement is pored over for deeper meaning. Unfortunately, quite a bit of eisegesis has occurred over the past few days.
I've experimented with a service (which I won't name as they are effectively a competitor) that provides access to academic books, with a library bigger than that of Logos. The reading, notetaking, highlighting and study experience was nowhere near in the same league as with Logos (in fact it was terrible). But actually the electronic-library-as-a-service is coming down the track, whether we like it or not. I found the benefits of being able to open almost any theology book I wanted for £GBP12 a month really helpful, but the reading experience just didn't cut it. The point is that Logos needs to prepare strategically for these new challenges, and I for one am delighted that they are doing so in a way that will protect our investment.

Nathanael King

Thank you for hearing and understanding people's concerns. I really appreciate this response. Three quick thoughts:

- You said we will not lose existing feature sets as you move towards subscriptions. Would that include existing feature sets that are modified/improved? For example, will we still have a robust search feature as smart search becomes more prominent? That's a key concern. I don't just want access to my library; I want robust ways to use my library without being stuck on an out-of-date version.

- Really looking forward to your thoughts/news on a purchasable version.

- Some of the generative AI features like sermon applications/illustrations that are integrated into the sermon assistant are interesting to me, but there are many users who do not use sermon builder because we've developed a workflow that we're comfortable with using Microsoft Word or a separate app. It would be great if there was a way for users in this situation to utilize these features. In other words, maybe separate the sermon assistant from the sermon builder or provide access to the outside sermon builder?

Thanks again! Appreciate you hearing people's concerns with a subscription model.

Nathanael King

Thank you for hearing and understanding people's concerns. I really appreciate this response.

Two quick thoughts:

- You said we will not lose existing feature sets as you move towards subscriptions. Would that include existing feature sets that are modified/improved? For example, will we still have a robust search feature as smart search becomes more prominent. That's a key concern. I don't just want access to my library; I want robust ways to use my library without being stuck on an out-of-date version.

- Really looking forward to your thoughts/news on a purchasable version.

- Some of the generative AI features like sermon applications/illustrations that are integrated into the sermon assistant are interesting to me, but there are many users who do not use sermon assistant because we've developed a workflow that we're comfortable with using Microsoft Word or a separate app. It would be great if there was a way for users in this situation to utilize these features.

Thanks again! Appreciate you hearing people's concerns with a subscription model.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

The new logos pro looks like its mostly geared towards those in ministry, like pastoral roles.

That is correct. From Mark's original post:

One of the tiers of the forthcoming subscription will be called Logos Pro, and it will be aimed specifically at pastors.

Will you be making new features for the layman who just wants to advance their knowledge in the biblical study of the Word, like regular church members? The insights look promising, if I am correctly understanding it, that you can find information on a passage you're looking at, in a big commentary without having to comb or read through endless material to find what you wanted about the passage?

Yes, we plan to announce other subscription tiers for different audiences. "Insights" is one of the features we think will appeal to "regular church members".

Sam Shelton

Mark, I just want to give a heartfelt thanks to you, and all the people at Logos who work so hard to give us such a great tool to help us in our Bible study. I know that we all have different concerns, with individual needs for our study; I thank you for trying to respond to each concern that we have.

I, for one, can say that I have never encountered (and I mean never) a software company that worked so hard to reach out to the concerns of their customers. No other software company has ever come close. Does this mean that every question is answered completely? Of course not, for we are all human. But as long as you as a company continue to reach out to me, I will continue to use and invest in Logos in whatever format it may be placed.

Ryan

Thank you for this listening period and for hearing the concerns of those who want to continue to invest in license ownership an updates while avoiding subscription fees. Please continue to seek me out as a customer, as well as others like me who love the product and want to continue Without subscriptions.

Ryan

Kiyah

- Some of the generative AI features like sermon applications/illustrations that are integrated into the sermon assistant are interesting to me, but there are many users who do not use sermon assistant because we've developed a workflow that we're comfortable with using Microsoft Word or a separate app. It would be great if there was a way for users in this situation to utilize these features. In other words, maybe separate the sermon assistant from the sermon builder or provide access to the outside sermon builder?

I agree with this. These features need to be freed from being trapped inside sermon builder for people who don't use sermon builder in their preaching workflow, and for people who are generating content other than sermons and want to utilize the AI features. I've thought the same thing about the quotes feature. I myself would use that more if it weren't trapped inside the sermon builder.

- Some of the generative AI features like sermon applications/illustrations that are integrated into the sermon assistant are interesting to me, but there are many users who do not use sermon builder because we've developed a workflow that we're comfortable with using Microsoft Word or a separate app. It would be great if there was a way for users in this situation to utilize these features. In other words, maybe separate the sermon assistant from the sermon builder or provide access to the outside sermon builder?

I agree with this. These features need to be freed from being trapped inside sermon builder for people who don't use sermon builder in their preaching workflow, and for people who are generating content other than sermons and want to utilize the AI features. I've thought the same thing about the quotes feature. I myself would use that more if it weren't trapped inside the sermon builder.

I wholeheartedly agree! All those AI and non-AI features on the sidebar of the Sermon Builder.

Mark

I wholeheartedly agree! All those AI and non-AI features on the sidebar of the Sermon Builder.

I also agree with this...unless sermon builder evolves to allow us to import our workflows into Sermon building and have it come out exactly as we want. I build sermons in personal books and the format I use and style I have not found available in sermon builder

Christopher Esget

I agree with Kiyah. The sermon builder is geared toward a certain kind of preaching that is very divergent from my tradition. I would love it if these features were freed from SB, or if the sermon builder was focused more on being a collection medium that ultimately exports to a word processing software.

MJ. Smith

The sermon builder is geared toward a certain kind of preaching that is very divergent from my tradition.

How should sermon builder work to support your tradition? You are not alone in this complaint.

Tes

Mark, I just want to give a heartfelt thanks to you, and all the people at Logos who work so hard to give us such a great tool to help us in our Bible study. I know that we all have different concerns, with individual needs for our study; I thank you for trying to respond to each concern that we have.

I, for one, can say that I have never encountered (and I mean never) a software company that worked so hard to reach out to the concerns of their customers. No other software company has ever come close. Does this mean that every question is answered completely? Of course not, for we are all human. But as long as you as a company continue to reach out to me, I will continue to use and invest in Logos in whatever format it may be placed.

Hi Sam, I really appreciate your comments.

Aaron Hamilton

These features need to be freed from being trapped inside sermon builder for people who don't use sermon builder in their preaching workflow, and for people who are generating content other than sermons and want to utilize the AI features.

This suggestion appears to be in line with the general functionality of Logos. Most tools can be pulled up independently. It's probably just a matter of time.

Mark Michaelson

I genuinely do not understand the uproar! I've been using it today and got amazing results. I asked, "What did Martin Luther say about John Calvin?" I got exact answers from Ai Smart Search.

Phil Gons (Logos)

You said we will not lose existing feature sets as you move towards subscriptions. Would that include existing feature sets that are modified/improved? For example, will we still have a robust search feature as smart search becomes more prominent? That's a key concern. I don't just want access to my library; I want robust ways to use my library without being stuck on an out-of-date version.

Generally, substantial improvements we make to existing features are separately gated and licensed. Occasionally, smaller improvements are made available to existing customers. It depends on how significant and expensive the update is.

You won't be stuck on an out-of-date version. You'll still be on the latest version of the software, but some feature improvements (along with new features) will be gated behind new licenses. Your existing licenses and features will be supported and continue to work well.

Phil Gons (Logos)

I genuinely do not understand the uproar! I've been using it today and got amazing results. I asked, "What did Martin Luther say about John Calvin?" I got exact answers from Ai Smart Search.

Glad to hear it. Thanks for sharing, Mark!

Phil Gons (Logos)

A few ideas for your Logos Pro value adds. As a lifetime Logos Now member I do like...

The several books that I can pick each month to own as part of my subscription.

The discount on Lexham resources.

The Faithlife Reward at the end of the year.

The immediate access to anything new rolled out. I was pleasantly surprised the morning when I got up and Logos 10 was ready to roll! 🙂

We'll definitely be discussing what aspects of Faithlife Connect to retain in our new subscriptions. Thanks for the feedback (and some of your other ideas)!

Phil Gons (Logos)

is it possible to purchase these full feature sets after the launch of the new logos? You make mention of rolling back when canceling a subscription, what if there is nothing to roll back on? - I think the ability to continue to purchase the current feature sets would be idea for those who would want to.

We will very likely give plenty of advanced notice before we ending the ability to purchase the L10 feature sets. We've also discussed special discounts for our existing subscribers as a thank you, but we haven't finalized that plan yet. More details to come in the coming months.

Will you be making new features for the layman who just wants to advance their knowledge in the biblical study of the Word, like regular church members?

We're still finalizing the details, but we're likely to have four tiers:

Tier 1 focused on personal/family use and oriented toward general lay users
Tier 2 focused on ministry use and oriented toward teachers and leaders
Tier 3 focused on pastoral use and oriented toward preachers/clergy
Tier 4 focused on academic use and oriented toward scholarship

The tiers will likely stack and get more expensive as you move up.

After reading through this I am far more confident in logos now.

In my conclusion, I am far more relived about the new logos moving forward, and I was one of the "forceful" ;-) .

Really glad to hear it!

Phil Gons (Logos)

As a FLC subscriber for years, when these new plans do go forward, my 3 favorite current perks are below. I hope they can be retained in some sort of way/shape/form:

1) 2% Back annually

2) 3 Faithlife Free Books & Lexham Discount Monthly

3) Mobile Ed Courses (I would love to see this expanded with maybe an old Blockbuster approach for the older folks here... a quota of rental courses that renews monthly/annually. The choice of courses would also need to be expanded as I've noticed from time to time that not all are available.

Thanks for sharing. We'll definitely consider what makes sense to retain.

If I can be greedy, FLTV is dying. I would love for this new subscription model to help prop this up or maybe combine with someone like RightNowMedia or another one. For years people have asked for improvements to include a minor owned videos section but that has never come. If FLTV dies, can you maybe transfer these videos to Logos itself? I've purchased several films over the years but they only show on FLTV and finding them is a real pain.

There's definitely some work to do with Faithlife TV. Video will still be an important part of our platform going forward, but we'll likely focus more on video content that drives a deeper understanding of Scripture rather than merely entertains. Not sure when we'll get to it, but it'll need some attention before too long.

Phil Gons (Logos)

Thank you, Mark. I have subscribed, and feel that you probably need to hear from those of us who are in. I've given up reading the megathread because I found the tone rather unedifying, frankly. You, Phil and Bradley are to be commended for your measured, gracious and generous responses, some of you working on into the middle of the night.

There is also an organised campaign on Facebook from those who object to these changes. The language on some of the Facebook threads also borders on hysterical, with one of them even talking about a class action lawsuit.

I have subscribed because:

When I first bought into Logos, the business model concerned me - and still did until this announcement. Logos has ongoing costs for syncing, storing ever-increasing amounts of user content (notes, sermons, passage lists, prayer lists, personal books), and providing updates for bug fixes, security issues, etc. To this have been added ongoing costs for translation, and now AI. I see subscription as a way of ensuring these costs are covered. I have always been surprised Logos didn't make an ongoing charge for providing this facility in the past. The days when we bought software on a CD are long gone, and our connected world means that software needs constantly updating, which comes at a cost. The buy-it-and own-it-forever days are gone.

I'm not wild about AI, and have posted elsewhere about my concerns as to the way the tools we use shape our reading of Scripture. I also recognise, though, that we need to find ways of using these tools intelligently and wisely, and help one another to do so. I can better do that from the inside than by throwing rocks in from outside.

I trust the folks at Logos that I've interacted with, and have observed since 2009 how they do seek to put things right when they go wrong, and I rather resent the "hermeneutic of suspicion" that often prevails when these announcements are made. I did cancel my Logos Now subscription when I felt it ceased to offer me value. I also bought the Libronix Sermon File add-in that one user repeatedly brings up, but also recognise we now have something far better than that. Whilst a Private Equity buyout was a concern at the time, they protect their investment by growing the customer base, and a younger market is far more attuned to the direction they are going. I know issues like the EEC saga rightly concern some users, but I don't think that things like handouts or Faithlife Assistant can really be used to demonstrate bad faith.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that new features should be rolled out regularly, rather than a "big bang" every two years, so that I can take them on board in a more measured fashion, and make better use of them. I've never even touched some of the new features from Logos 10 - or 9 for that matter.

Other thoughts:
I am retired and on a fixed income, and didn't have a book budget from a church when I was a working Pastor, but I value the product and what it is able to contribute to the Church. I therefore used my own money to invest in the toolset.

We are a community of exegetes, so every word of an announcement is pored over for deeper meaning. Unfortunately, quite a bit of eisegesis has occurred over the past few days.

I've experimented with a service (which I won't name as they are effectively a competitor) that provides access to academic books, with a library bigger than that of Logos. The reading, notetaking, highlighting and study experience was nowhere near in the same league as with Logos (in fact it was terrible). But actually the electronic-library-as-a-service is coming down the track, whether we like it or not. I found the benefits of being able to open almost any theology book I wanted for £GBP12 a month really helpful, but the reading experience just didn't cut it. The point is that Logos needs to prepare strategically for these new challenges, and I for one am delighted that they are doing so in a way that will protect our investment.

What a great post, Greg. I love the perspective you're taking. Full of wisdom, generosity, kindness, and love of neighbor. Thank you for your engagement and support!

Kiyah

A few ideas for your Logos Pro value adds. As a lifetime Logos Now member I do like...

The several books that I can pick each month to own as part of my subscription.

The discount on Lexham resources.

The Faithlife Reward at the end of the year.

The immediate access to anything new rolled out. I was pleasantly surprised the morning when I got up and Logos 10 was ready to roll! 🙂

We'll definitely be discussing what aspects of Faithlife Connect to retain in our new subscriptions. Thanks for the feedback (and some of your other ideas)!

Can you please have subscription options that don't include Faithlife TV? It's completely useless to me and I don't want to pay for it.

I agree with Donovan on what I would value in a subscription.

Sean

Can you please have subscription options that don't include Faithlife TV? It's completely useless too me and I don't want to pay for it.

Agreed. I do think, if subscriptions are a must, there should be offered a variety of options that each are fairly homogeneous in character. Don't throw everything into them and expect them to satisfy everyone. I was really put off with the change from Logos Now to FaithLife Connect largely because of the big push with FaithLife TV. I don't watch videos. I'm also not interested in mobile ed. If those are put forward as big compelling reasons for me to subscribe--well, I'm not going to.

I'd suggest different subscriptions catering towards different streams:

Average (for want of a better term) casual student of the Bible--ebooks and videos might be appropriate here
Pastors (heavy on the sermon help tools)
Academic (heavy on research tools & resources--NOT NECESSARILY AI)

Something along those lines, maybe with different tiers in each category. It's not my job to figure out specifics; I just want to point out that not everyone is excited by the same things.

Bob Allen

I'm currently using the trial of L-Pro and plan to continue with the subscription for the time being. I like the idea of incorporating AI in specific ways. My biggest concern is not access to resources and features that I have already purchased (more accurately, purchased the licenses for). I wonder what the subscription cost will be once this is fully rolled out. I've seen vague comments about tiered subscriptions, but nothing even near concrete. I don't like the though of getting accustomed to all the new features for $9.99 per month and then finding that I have to pay $19.99 per month (or even $12.99 per month) to continue having access.

Pedro Pozo

Ive invested heavily in Logos, and purchased many of the top academic resources already. I would love access with the subscription to the 4th tier, but in also hopbig that I’m not penalized since I own already many of the resources that will likely be included in T4.

Have you guys thought about implementing dynamic pricing on subscriptions? Give the features a value, let’s say 50%, and the books another 50%. The more books you own out of the included ones, the less you pay on a monthly basis.

Pedro

Phil Theis

I have begun my subscription and really like the results I am seeing. One question that comes to me appeared when I was perusing 'Popular Quotes.' The quotes were fabulous and when I checked a few of the sources I discovered that they were from resources that I didn't own. That's fine, I am offered the ability to buy them at the store, so it's a good selling tool. My question goes to the delimitation of sources during a Smart Search. Do you limit the automated search to my owned resources, or does this smart search go beyond what I own?

Thanks for all the good work.

Phil

Phil Gons (Logos)

My question goes to the delimitation of sources during a Smart Search. Do you limit the automated search to my owned resources, or does this smart search go beyond what I own?

In the All Search tab, we search all resources. In the Books search tab, you can control what gets searched.

Frank Sauer

I trust the folks at Logos that I've interacted with, and have observed since 2009 how they do seek to put things right when they go wrong, and I rather resent the "hermeneutic of suspicion" that often prevails when these announcements are made. I did cancel my Logos Now subscription when I felt it ceased to offer me value. I also bought the Libronix Sermon File add-in that one user repeatedly brings up, but also recognise we now have something far better than that. Whilst a Private Equity buyout was a concern at the time, they protect their investment by growing the customer base, and a younger market is far more attuned to the direction they are going. I know issues like the EEC saga rightly concern some users, but I don't think that things like handouts or Faithlife Assistant can really be used to demonstrate bad faith.

Since I am the user that "repeatly" mentions the Sermon File Addin.... The reason I do so is because many users REPEATEDLY tout Logos honoring their promises and guarantees which is simply not true. There are features that have been discontinued like said addin and replaced with a different feature that forced users to change their way of preparing Sermons to even come close to the same use.

There were other features from Libronix that used to exist in a list that I could not find that were never brought over - so The Sermon File Addin and any other features are NOT available forever as Logos promotes their features to be.... The Libronix engine was deprecated and no longer supported - we have the new engine but the continuity that is promoted is not always there!

You make the declaration that we have something better - that is your opinion, not definitive - as other users have commented about not using the the Sermon Editor because they prefer using a Word document or similar, rather than being forced into Logos' vision of Sermon Prep. So yes, this user will "repeatedly" acknowledge that I do NOT have the feature(s) that I used and no longer have access to use - and have not benefitted from the "upgraded" version that fits the Logos team's view of Sermon Prep....

There is also the misleading promotion of these changes that Subscription models are the only sustainable option - yet as I and others point out - features created, implemented into the engine, require no third party payment (AI) and only require a license to be activated in a users engine not being made available for purchase is nothing more than a forced subscription for access to improved function.

Many point towards secular models like Microsoft which is apples and oranges - Microsoft never promised me continual access and support for my purchases, nor does Microsoft imply that they promote Christ and the Gospel - so more ethical business accumen is expected from Logos.

Phil Theis

Perfect answer, thank you Phil!

Frank Sauer

You said we will not lose existing feature sets as you move towards subscriptions. Would that include existing feature sets that are modified/improved? For example, will we still have a robust search feature as smart search becomes more prominent? That's a key concern. I don't just want access to my library; I want robust ways to use my library without being stuck on an out-of-date version.

Generally, substantial improvements we make to existing features are separately gated and licensed. Occasionally, smaller improvements are made available to existing customers. It depends on how significant and expensive the update is.

You won't be stuck on an out-of-date version. You'll still be on the latest version of the software, but some feature improvements (along with new features) will be gated behind new licenses. Your existing licenses and features will be supported and continue to work well.

And this is one of the word play scenarios that I and others are concerned about..... The feature improvements being behind a new license.... That is just another way of saying that we will be eventually forced into a subscription if the mass of users who have made known they would prefer to own their features are ignored.

Why do I protest this so passionately? Look at the Logos 10 Features Set....

Plus Other New Features

Dozens of tools and features included in the Full Feature Upgrade

Simple Search Syntax

Pinpoint exactly what you’re looking for without memorizing search syntax.
Popular Quotations

Sermon Import

Transfer all your sermon outlines and manuscripts from Microsoft Word directly into Logos so you can find your past work quickly.
Enhanced Favorites
Wordplay in the Bible

That Sermon Import feature is listed as "NEW" - that is the function I had with the Sermon File Addin that was taken away.....

So AGAIN - why repeatedly bring things up - because they are ignored, looked past and many users that have been around are concerned we might be in for another misleading campaign - but.... the grace we already extended for these past failures to adhere to a promised model of business and continued support as customers is ignored by some on these forums and attitudes that calling out such failures is not being gracious....

Payiing for the same feature access that was deprecated is not good business, forcing subscriptions for features that could easily be made available as in the past is also not welcoming to a large portion of long time customers based on forum feedback - it really makes no sense at all to not acknowledge that features created and implemented into the engine that require no ongoing payment like AI can not be available to all users whether subscription or purchase. If a user wants to subscribe they can, if not purchasing is still revenue, if the purchaser wants access to the per use features like AI then yes, a subscription is obvious.... But not for feature not requiring such

DMB

So AGAIN - why repeatedly bring things up - because they are ignored, looked past and many users that have been around are concerned we might be in for another misleading campaign - but.... the grace we already extended for these past failures to adhere to a promised model of business and continued support as customers is ignored by some on these forums and attitudes that calling out such failures is not being gracious....

I can see your points. I also think the 'devil in the details' will be a problem, later on. Often usability problems get put on the 'later' list, until the feature can get several fixes ... and gated since a 'substantial' improvement. Like, maybe dark switching.

Another devil-details is gifting/willing ones Logos. Is the account stripped of features? I don't even know current practice.

We probably won't know anything for another 6 months. If FL is composed of normal humanity, most of their plan is already in place ... a few changes here and there. As a minimum, their previous business model was slowly dieing. Even though I won't subscribe (I'm also part of humanity, deciding-wise), I'd assume their plan needs to work ... not a good plan B available.

Joseph Turner

We're still finalizing the details, but we're likely to have four tiers:

Tier 1 focused on personal/family use and oriented toward general lay users

Tier 2 focused on ministry use and oriented toward teachers and leaders

Tier 3 focused on pastoral use and oriented toward preachers/clergy

Tier 4 focused on academic use and oriented toward scholarship

The tiers will likely stack and get more expensive as you move up.

I'm happy in general with the direction of all of this, but I wanted to get clarification on one thing in this thread.

I would be part of the target audience for Tier 4, which is going to be the most expensive tier.

My biggest concern is:

At this point, I already own all feature sets and every book in Logos Pro, so I am getting a discount and a $9.99 monthly charge.

If books are going to be progressively stacked along with the feature sets, and I already own all of the books and resources from all of the tiers, then will I still receive a discount for the books I already own (my question is not concerning features, as I understand the cost inolved in the new features)?

Are we definitely only paying for the features, with the only books being included those necessary for functionality?

That would be my only concern. If I end up paying the same for a large library of academic books that I already own as someone who doesn't own them, then that would mean I am renting books which I've already purchased, and academic books are the most expensive offered.

I think from previous discussion that the answer would be that we are only paying for features, and the only books included would be those necesarry to make the features fully functional, but I think clarification on that here would be helpful.

For instance, if I pay hundreds of dollars for the Lexham Research Commentaries, which I love by the way, and they end up offered as part of the rental of Logos Academic, then that might be hard to take.

As I'm kind of thinking (stream of consciousness) through though, I guess it wouldn't be much different than someone who purchased, say the LRC for example at launch, and then having them being offered in a base package later on at a huge discount. I wouldn't be upset by that, so I guess just some thoughts on that would be helpful.

Aaron Hamilton

Tier 1 focused on personal/family use and oriented toward general lay users

Tier 2 focused on ministry use and oriented toward teachers and leaders

Tier 3 focused on pastoral use and oriented toward preachers/clergy

Tier 4 focused on academic use and oriented toward scholarship

I'm trying to understand this. To be honest, I don't understand the need for different tiers. Are these tiers essentially optional resource add-ons to the base subscription of personal/family that primarily contains "free" resources (as explained in the previous thread)? I can't imagine different tiers would be needed for features. I thought the basic idea of the subscription is that new updates would be regularly rolled out to all subscribers. It seems unnecessarily complex if certain feature updates are only rolled out to some subscribers and not others. If these tiers are only resource-related, there would be no need for an academic who already owns all the resources he/she needs to subscribe beyond the personal/family level, which seems fair considering the sizeable investment in resources already made. Clarification on this topic would be much appreciated. Thank you!

DMB

Clarification on this topic would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Aaron, you're not thinking 'Faithlife-logic'. The tiers REDUCE the rent you'd be charged for features you'll never use (along with books, ditto).

How often do you use 'propositional outlines'?? Or all those pesky taggings that people repeatedly ask ... what's that (you do know proparoxytone accents, I assume)? Assertive speech acts, anyone?

More seriously, it's hard to predict who would pay for what ,.. and for how long. A month of academic need? Students aren't known for wealth. A lot of subscription churn. I'm just glad Logos already has the bulk of academic features ... I can't imagine academic subscription marginal revenue would fund much.

Doc B

What are your suggestions?

I can't speak for scooter, but clearly one of his main suggestions is to not create 'haves' and 'have-nots' within the Logos subculture, even unintentionally.

I can support that, though it may be inevitable based on the model being proposed.

Doc B

another way of saying that we will be eventually forced into a subscription if the mass of users who have made known they would prefer to own their features are ignored

This is exactly what I tried to say on the megathread only I didn't say it quite as well as you have here.

In spite of all the (generous) promises, this is a real concern. It's not a matter of not trusting the Logos folks (as Phil asked in response to my post on the other thread); it's a matter of having enough life experiences in general and with Logos to know the Law of Unintended Consequences is real and will certainly bite some of us if Mark's promises can't be honored for some (probably very legitimate) reason.

Jeannie Koh

Thank you so much for your feedback on our announcement that we’ll be launching the next version of Logos as a subscription. We’ve had hundreds of comments and questions, and every single one is valuable to us.

Thank you, Mark Barnes and Phil Gons, for the time and effort you spend to listen to each one of us, where there are so much diversities of contexts and suggestions. I am no exception. I am mainly a researcher in a variety of contexts, anywhere from a lay church level, to pastoral, to mission, to organisational, to theological and to academic. I relate across formal, informal and nonformal theological education. I support a wide ranging theological education association with multiple partners that encompasses the 2/3rds world, from Turkey to New Zealand.

I have benefitted from, and need Logos' great breath and depth at all levels.

I am on an early iteration of Faithlife Connect (previously Logos Now) and a migrant from WORDSearch and Bibleworks. I understand that my subscription is rather unique and I am grateful that Faithlife/Logos has maintained the terms for me. For US$99 (current Connect subscriber) and US$100 (WORDSearch perks which enjoys a return US$100 credits) annually I get the following:

ongoing updates and upgrades to the latest Logos feature sets* (this is crucial for what I do)
a total of six eBooks monthly from faithlife classics(3 each from both subscription plans)
2 mobile ed courses annually at 180 day temporary licence
25% off Lexham resource per month
Special deals on selected resources
2% return the following year on what I purchased
Faithlife TV (which I do watch and have benefitted from!)

I am a supporter of AI and can see the value it will eventually add in time to come after a period of birthing pains. I am willing to continue the subcription and request that:

There is a way not to pigeon hole the options into any kind of tier (the current arrangement I have is very suitable)
To include the AI options with the current updates and upgrades I get
I can live with a downsizing of the remaining options such as having 2 eBooks monthly as opposed to 6, 1 mobile ed course per year

I have over 9,000 resources. If the Lord were to ever hold me accountable for what I have and know from these extensive embarrassing riches of resources, I shall be hardpressed to do so. His grace is indeed sufficient, and His grace through Logos has been immense. I cannot tell you how grateful I am, and how many parties I have been able to help. With the nascent AI technology, I am beginning and will be able to do much more.

I thank you for your kind attention, and I thank our gracious God for you.

in Christ,

Jeannie Koh

Pedro Pozo

What about doing dynamic pricing on the subscription, based on how many of the resources included with it you already own?

if features are valued at 50%, and the 400 resources at another 50% (for example), and I own half of the resources included with the sub already, I would only have to pay 75% of the subscription.

Nobody has thought of this?

Mark Barnes (Logos)

To be honest, I don't understand the need for different tiers.

Having different configurations at different tiers allows users who don't need our most powerful features to get a simpler application at a lower price.

We've always offered different feature configurations for different base packages and use cases. Currently, we offer nine different configurations: Fundamentals, Starter, Bronze, Silver, Full, Counseling, Disciple, Preaching Suite, and Academic. Plus, some Connect tiers have their own configuration.

So, four tiers represent a simplification of our current strategy.