Bible References Truth

Christian Alexander
Christian Alexander Member Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭
edited November 2024 in English Forum

I have read a booklet given by a pastor friend.Is All Truth God's Truth? By Jay E. Adams. This was based on a theological Wednesday night study he did last week on truth and lies. He did not use any references to the Bible. Also, I was once told, "All possible truth is God's truth." Are there any references proving Bible verses? References in the Bible to logic and truth do not imply correction to this area. For those who might be interested, some background: While reading about philosophy, Aristotelian ethics, truthful interpretation, and logic, this is something I am seeing. I have seen cross references to Truth, Theology, and Perspective by Vern Poythress, Making Plausible Inferences From Biblical Text Using Propositional Logic And The Rules Of Inference by Emmanuel Q.-M. Bruce-Adjei, Aristotle and Logical Theory by Jonathan Lear, Logic: The Right Use of Reason in the Inquiry After Truth by Isaac Watts, God has Many Names by John Hick,  Theistic Evolution: A Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Critique by J. P. Moreland & Stephen C. Meyer, Action and Character According to Aristotle: The Logic of the Moral Life by Kevin L. Flannery and If God Is For Us: The Everlasting Truth of Our Great Salvation by Trillia J. Newbell

Comments

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,165

    Christian Alexander said:

    Also, I was once told, "All possible truth is God's truth."

    Is that a definition? If not, if it is a description, what is the definition being used for "truth"? What concessions did Aristotle make in order to simplify syllogistic logic to true/false? (hint: he omitted time and indeterminate). My usual definition of (ultimate i.e. non-contingent) Truth does make all Truth God's Truth by definition -- it also makes it ineffable. Contingent truth (practical, usable truth) is experiential, constructs of our mind. As for Biblical evidence, I'd looking at the passages indicating that God is the cause of order rather than chaos. Order is usually mathematical, logical, and related subfields. Where it gets fun in when one understands the order behind chaos theory.

    Actually, however, there is a serious question regarding your inquiry: Do you wish to apply the Greek concept of truth to the Jewish texts prior to the Hellenization of their culture? If not, how was truth conveyed in Hebrew texts prior to Hellenization?

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Christian Alexander
    Christian Alexander Member Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭
    https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1298321#Comment_1298321

    I would use it as a presuppositional definition. Truth is a proposition that is true. It is circular, but usually meaning the proposition accords with reality and logic, independent of opinion and free from bias. Aristotle says in his book Metaphysics (Met.) Γ.7, 1011b26–27: “To say of what is that it is not, and of what is not that it is, is false- hood, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is truth." I would concur with his augmentation of truth. According to Thomas Aquinas, some truths that can only be discovered by divine revelation cannot be deduced by studying the natural world. What passages do you suggest? As Christians, we recognize that the Bible is the only source of truth and the supreme authority in both our personal and church life. The London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) puts it this way: “The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men.”

    MJ. Smith said:

    Actually, however, there is a serious question regarding your inquiry: Do you wish to apply the Greek concept of truth to the Jewish texts prior to the Hellenization of their culture? If not, how was truth conveyed in Hebrew texts prior to Hellenization?

    I have not taken my discussion that far yet. But you have a good point. I also recently read a piece on The Gospel Coalition. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/10-ideas-embedded-in-the-slogan-all-truth-is-gods-truth/ 

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,165
    https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1298360#Comment_1298360

    Christian Alexander said:I would use it as a presuppositional definition. Truth is a proposition that is true.

    Warning: I am not keen on presuppositional apologetics nor on scripture as propositional.

    Christian Alexander said:

    proposition accords with reality and logic,

    Always remember that it is logics plural just as it is maths plural. And remember that even with a broad definition of logic to include informal logics, not all rational thought is logic.

    Have you read any of these theologians, each with their own take on truth?

    • Alfred North Whitehead ... think truth as process
    • Miroslav Volf ... think narrative, encounter, truth 
    • Don Cuppitt ... think truth as construct of human experience
    • Wolfhart Pannenberg ... think truth as correspondence theory
    • John Milbank ... considers truth reachable via reason and faith (my least favorite on this list)

    No, I don't have specific reading suggestions. I know them from excerpts primarily.

    For some essentials on the Jewish understanding of truth:

    • The Guide for the Perplexed by Maimonides
    • God in Search of Man: A Philosophy of Judaism by Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel 
    • Torah: A Moral Code by Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik

    For a basic understanding of the broader aspects of truth, read

    Limiting your logic to Aristotle is like limiting your math to arithmetic. For some problems you need geometry.

    My favorite verse in the Bible when considering truth, logic, reality, and related issues is:

    [quote]For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Is 55:9.

    Christian Alexander said:

    As Christians, we recognize that the Bible is the only source of truth and the supreme authority in both our personal and church life.

    A small subset of Christians hold this position. Many give more credit to God's self-revelation in nature and the human heart. The forums are not the place for asserting personal theological beliefs.

    Christian Alexander said:

     According to Thomas Aquinas,

    Are you aware of the common story of Aquinas' repudiation of his own work on his deathbed. (Yes, that is a gross overstatement of his actual epiphany.) Mystics tend to become silent more frequently than logicians - a statement with very interesting ramifications.

    P.S. I'm also not keen on the assumption that we know much of anything about reality when we can't even tell if we are in a hologram or material world. And the more we learn about the real world the stranger it becomes ... I don't have the hubris to think I won't look ignorant and gullible in another 200 years. [Note this is science not theology]

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Christian Alexander
    Christian Alexander Member Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭
    https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1298415#Comment_1298415

    Thanks MJ. I agree that not all rational thought is logic. I read Volf and Milbank before. I am procuring the others you mentioned. I also read all the entries from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. 

    MJ. Smith said:

    Limiting your logic to Aristotle is like limiting your math to arithmetic. For some problems you need geometry.

    Who also would you add in this list here other than the ones above? I also like your favorite Bible verse. It is very logical and theocentric in nature to this discussion. I also like the Jewish sources above but have not read much on the topic. 

    MJ. Smith said:

    A small subset of Christians hold this position. Many give more credit to God's self-revelation in nature and the human heart. The forums are not the place for asserting personal theological beliefs.

    Understood. What groups are you referring to here? Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, etc? What are some references I can read on this topic? 

    MJ. Smith said:

    Are you aware of the common story of Aquinas' repudiation of his own work on his deathbed.

    No. Where can I find this repudiation at in the primary sources?Also have there been any sources on this topic from post Pauline epistles to 200 AD/CE? 

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,165
    https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1298518#Comment_1298518

    I don't know of any primary sources nor do I know of an English translation of his secretary's work although I am sure there is one. I'm simply unfamiliar with the material.

    Christian Alexander said:

    What groups are you referring to here? Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, etc?

    Definitely not Reformed - ACELO churches (high Anglican, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, high Lutheran, Oriental Orthodox) and parts of the pietist  and Pentecostal movements.

    Note these resources tackle the issue from a variety of perspectives. I chose them not because they explicitly give simple answers but rather because they give you the breadth of views you need to consider the issues for yourself. I have tried to be cross-denominational but the list is obviously biased by my own denominational interests.

    Christian Alexander said:

    Also have there been any sources on this topic from post Pauline epistles to 200 AD/CE? 

    • Justin Martyr - keen on philosophy
    • Irenaeus of Lyon - keen on scripture
    • Clement of Alexandria - keen on reason and scripture
    • Tertullian - keen on faith
    • Hermas - keen on truth as ethical concern
    • Polycarp of Smyrna - keen on Apostolic Tradition
    • Theophilus of Antioch - keen on unity of revelation and reason
    • Athenagoras of Athens - keen on reason and logic

    Note that for finding Church Fathers on a particular topic, your friends are:

    • Bercot, David W., ed. A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998.
    • De Journel, M. J. Rouët. Enchiridion Patristicum: Translation. Editio Quarta et Quinta. Friburgi Brisgoviae: Herder & Co., 1922.Okay, you need a bit of Latin and a reliable translator into English but you should be aware of this resource
    • Jurgens, W. A., trans. The Faith of the Early Fathers. Vol. 1–3. Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1970–1979. Standard reference for Catholics
    • Akin, Jimmy. The Fathers Know Best: Your Essential Guide to the Teachings of the Early Church. San Diego, CA: Catholic Answers, 2010. Approachable for contemporary laity.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

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