Update from Bill McCarthy - CEO Logos
Hi everyone,
I wanted to share an update as we continue working hard towards launching the next version of Logos software this fall. Thank you all for your engagement and support, we're so grateful for your feedback.
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That's encouraging, thank you.
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Thank you for the update and for listening.
There are some good ideas being put forward in the forums.
I look forward to hearing more.
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Hey, Bill.
In the hope of getting your attention, please check out the pricing model for Mathematica Home Edition. It's kind of a niche product and a hobby for me, but they have an interesting model you should look at. They have straight monthly subscription but also have upgrade options that are interesting. I get the premium plan. which includes all new feature updates of the product for one year. Then I get to decide if I want to renew. if for some reason I don't I still have the last version I was able to get during my 1-year. They also make it cheaper to stay in yearly, than to opt out and come back in later. Just another perspective to consider.
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Steven MacDonald said:
They also make it cheaper to stay in yearly, than to opt out and come back in later.
I like that idea. Thank you for the update, Bill.
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@Bill McCarthy - thanks for not only giving an update and answering questions, but communicating heart and vision for this amazing product. I love the idea of value in the relationship on a month by month basis. I am looking forward to what you cook up for this autumn!
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Thank you for the update Bill. I for one have been confused trying to make a decision going forward. I have invested a lot over the years and I love books. As for features, I am grateful for Logos Bible Software and I train people to use it but recently with all the confusion I could not recommend the software and I personally made the decision years ago to stick with Logos.
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Bill, thank you for sharing this —
“…we're blessed immensely to feel like we can be in some small way part of your ministries, or part of your outreach - part of your learning. We love that relationship - we want it to grow way bigger, we want to be a meaningful part of explaining truth to this world - through your lens and your mouths and your investigation and writing and your feedback…”
I just want you to know that Logos is a large part of my ministry, helping me to dig deeper in God's word so that I can share it to others in Christ, helping me to be better at explaining God's gift so that I can better reach out to those who do not yet know God, and helping me in my own spiritual journey to grow closer to God through His word.
Thank you for reassuring us that our purchased content will always be accessible, and that Perpetual Feature Licensing will be a component of Logos into the future. But more importantly though, I appreciate you speaking to the ministry aspect of Logos, and how important that is to you and the company going forward.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Thank you for the update.
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Thank you for the update 🙏
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Thank you, Bill, for the update and explaining where Logos is at in planning the subscription packages. I really appreciate you listening to the feedback on the forums. That is why I love Logos and am grateful for all of the hard work your team has put into the software. Thanks again and I am looking forward to what your team has in store for Logos 11! Please continue to keep us posted with these video updates. Also, please consider making these video messages a permanent form of sharing with Logos users regular quarterly messages, for instance, some of the cool enhancements you and your team are envisioning for the software. Regular quarterly messages from you, the CEO of Logos, communicating with us, the customer base would mean a lot Logos users! Just food for thought...
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
@Bill McCarthy - thanks for not only giving an update and answering questions, but communicating heart and vision for this amazing product. I love the idea of value in the relationship on a month by month basis. I am looking forward to what you cook up for this autumn!
Agreed.
Thanks Bill!
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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From about @2:15: "Continuous development implies that what we will be doing is every day, every week, every month, we'll be trying to improve the software you're using all the time...so if someone's in sermon notes, and there are features that we can continue to enhance real time, we want to provide that, and you might not even know that development is going on."
But what if I don't want to get updates to the software every day/week? That would be very disruptive. Also with the continual release model, testing isn't as robust, so bugs get shoved out the door, with the idea that they can easily be fixed later. But if you've got a sermon to prepare for Sunday, bugs could stop you in your tracks.
I don't want things changing out from under me on a continual basis, even if it's just to fix a bug, since that would encourage hurry and sloppiness to get fixes released quickly. I'd rather all of that get collected into regular, scheduled releases, with thorough in-house testing. Sure, 2 years might be too long to wait, but you've already been doing it on a 6-week cycle lately. I'd be OK with that. But not "real time" every day or every week.
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Rosie Perera said:
Sure, 2 years might be too long to wait, but you've already been doing it on a 6-week cycle lately. I'd be OK with that. But not "real time" every day or every week.
Within the last couple of weeks they have confirmed the six weeks cycle although week one will change to internal/alpha testing. I don't know the cycles on web or mobile ... I don't use the latter and the former appears to me to be a bit random.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
But what if I don't want to get updates to the software every day/week? That would be very disruptive. Also with the continual release model, testing isn't as robust, so bugs get shoved out the door, with the idea that they can easily be fixed later. But if you've got a sermon to prepare for Sunday, bugs could stop you in your tracks.
I think this is a fair point. I would not want for the user base to effectively become the beta test group. Logos 4 Mac nearly caused me to leave. It was so bad I had to run the Windows version in a virtual machine.
I guess I am under the impression is that there would be a six week roll out cycle which means behind the scenes they have some sort of sprint, agile or waterfall management philosophy of developing the code. I assume not everything can be developed in a six week cycle either, with some things in the background taking longer, but eventually queuing up for beta testing and then deployment in this cadence.
I use several products that follow this sort of pattern, such as Agenda for MacOS. From an end user experience it works well for me. It feels like small continuous improvements that evolve the software rather than a major update every few years that in some instances requires a relearning of the software.
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My biggest concern is still with the tiered system cost vs what I already own. I would want the academic tier for whatever feature sets it will include; however, I assume it will also come with several academic resources besides the feature sets, which will be baked into the monthly cost. Chances are, I already own most, if not all of the academic resources to be included, so I am paying again for resources I already own, and I'm paying the same price as someone who doesn't own any of those resources.
At least this is my understanding.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joseph Turner said:
My biggest concern is still with the tiered system cost vs what I already own. I would want the academic tier for whatever feature sets it will include; however, I assume it will also come with several academic resources besides the feature sets, which will be baked into the monthly cost. Chances are, I already own most, if not all of the academic resources to be included, so I am paying again for resources I already own, and I'm paying the same price as someone who doesn't own any of those resources.
At least this is my understanding.
Though I'm not interested in a subscription personally, this is something that I've thought about too....
Thus far, I don't recall clarity on any form of Dynamic Pricing for subscriptions - so your point is quite valid - is there value for someone who has a large library in comparison to a new user? Why would a customer be charged the same as another if they are getting 3/4, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/8 or less of the resources? Hopefully this gets clarity soon along with the Perpetual License issue....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Bill, it is good to see and accept your encouragement. You communicate in a straightforward, considerate, thoughtful, and compassionate manner. This is just what the business requires. I've been unsure about what action to take. 'Buy' is how I tend to think. I would prefer to own it and not have to pay for a subscription. God will grant you all the success in the business. Now onto Rosie's concern above. I do not want to see real time updates every week. I would like to see bug fixes every ten or so days and the six week cycle you all implemented to stay in effect.
Logos is my only Bible software and that will never change but I have been hesitant to buy resources due to the state of afffairs. Just so you know, Logos plays a big part in my ministry and daily work with the Bible. It helps me understand God's word better so that I can share it with others in Christ and improve my ability to articulate God's gift. Through His message, Logos Bible Software directly aids me in my personal spiritual path to become closer to God.
I would like to own the full feature package but do not get hardly any monthly income (685$) so I cannot defer that to a subscription of any kind.
Donovan R. Palmer said:I guess I am under the impression is that there would be a six week roll out cycle which means behind the scenes they have some sort of sprint, agile or waterfall management philosophy of developing the code. I assume not everything can be developed in a six week cycle either, with some things in the background taking longer, but eventually queuing up for beta testing and then deployment in this cadence.
I am uder the same impression Donovan.
Joseph Turner said:My biggest concern is still with the tiered system cost vs what I already own.
That is one of my top 3 concerns Joseph so I can resonate with you.
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Joseph Turner said:
My biggest concern is still with the tiered system cost vs what I already own. I would want the academic tier for whatever feature sets it will include; however, I assume it will also come with several academic resources besides the feature sets, which will be baked into the monthly cost. Chances are, I already own most, if not all of the academic resources to be included, so I am paying again for resources I already own, and I'm paying the same price as someone who doesn't own any of those resources.
At least this is my understanding.
Agreed Joseph, this is a concern for those of us with larger libraries. I already own all the resources except a couple that come with the Logos Pro level and I expect the "Max" level won't be too much different. Yet I will be paying a second time for these resources as a part of the subscription price. A subscription option that doesn't include the 'rental' library would be desirable to me as well. To put is another way Logos and assuming publishers will receive royalites from these subscriptions, will be double dipping into my wallet when I have already paid them in the past. So much for not paying twice for anything. A subscription library is great to get people into the software and for those who are not able to build a large library but it will also lead to people choosing not to build larger libraries - otherwise Logos and publishers will double dip into their wallets as well.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I use several products that follow this sort of pattern, such as Agenda for MacOS. From an end user experience it works well for me. It feels like small continuous improvements that evolve the software rather than a major update every few years that in some instances requires a relearning of the software.
I didn't think of this benefit - less to learn when there are updates every 6 weeks compared to once every 2 years. This, therefore, increases the probability of me using all the features.
Would Logos do a video tutorial for every feature they tweaked/added so that we can stay on top of the changes? I would be happy to pay!
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Simon’s Brother said:Joseph Turner said:
My biggest concern is still with the tiered system cost vs what I already own. I would want the academic tier for whatever feature sets it will include; however, I assume it will also come with several academic resources besides the feature sets, which will be baked into the monthly cost. Chances are, I already own most, if not all of the academic resources to be included, so I am paying again for resources I already own, and I'm paying the same price as someone who doesn't own any of those resources.
At least this is my understanding.
Agreed Joseph, this is a concern for those of us with larger libraries. I already own all the resources except a couple that come with the Logos Pro level and I expect the "Max" level won't be too much different. Yet I will be paying a second time for these resources as a part of the subscription price. A subscription option that doesn't include the 'rental' library would be desirable to me as well. To put is another way Logos and assuming publishers will receive royalites from these subscriptions, will be double dipping into my wallet when I have already paid them in the past. So much for not paying twice for anything. A subscription library is great to get people into the software and for those who are not able to build a large library but it will also lead to people choosing not to build larger libraries - otherwise Logos and publishers will double dip into their wallets as well.
The only way this would make sense for those with larger libraries is if Logos incorporated dynamic pricing into the monthly subscription amount. It's definitely possible since they've already been doing it with base packages, so the algorithm is there, but it remains to be seen if they will want to do that from a customer service perspective, or if they will take a "one price regardless of your library" approach, penalizing the long time users with large libraries.
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Historically they have done this. The Faithlife Essentials (No Library) option that started off as Logos Now.
Even now when you buy a base package you can opt not to buy the features and just get the books. What is being suggested here is just the opposite buy (or subscribe) to the features without books.
Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw
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I am not looking forward to the change over to the subscription system and have no interest in AI functions.
But: I regularly use the sermon editor and have also created all my sermons there for 3 years, searchable and so on.
I have “bought” this feature with my Logos Package (can not remember which version).Will it remain available for free or will it be part of the “sermon preparation” subscription level?
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Someone brought up an interesting point I haven't considered. Would publishers indeed want a piece of what's being made if their resources are rented and not purchased? I don't know if that would be possible the way things are structured (I do remember Logos providing an option to rent selected books previously but not anymore), but if that were to happen, then it would be going in a direction that happened similarly with cable television. In its early years, ESPN charged cable companies a small fee per month per subscriber for its channel. Then the other cable stations moved in that direction, resulting in cable and satellite television now having an enormous cost per month due to the accumulating cost of those fees that rise over a period of time. Again, I don't know if it would be possible for publishers to receive fees for their resources being rented the way things are structured (rentals as part of a monthly paid subscription unlike renting books at a library where you're not charged monthly), but if it is, then you're looking at fees for rentals of those resources that would most likely be translated to increasing costs passed on to consumers in subscriptions just from that alone.
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Most browsers update periodically, without your knowledge. They have beta channels for the more daring, and tested configurations are pushed out regularly. Think about it...happens everywhere, Facebook, Google, etc.
Rosie Perera said:From about @2:15: "Continuous development implies that what we will be doing is every day, every week, every month, we'll be trying to improve the software you're using all the time...so if someone's in sermon notes, and there are features that we can continue to enhance real time, we want to provide that, and you might not even know that development is going on."
But what if I don't want to get updates to the software every day/week? That would be very disruptive. Also with the continual release model, testing isn't as robust, so bugs get shoved out the door, with the idea that they can easily be fixed later. But if you've got a sermon to prepare for Sunday, bugs could stop you in your tracks.
I don't want things changing out from under me on a continual basis, even if it's just to fix a bug, since that would encourage hurry and sloppiness to get fixes released quickly. I'd rather all of that get collected into regular, scheduled releases, with thorough in-house testing. Sure, 2 years might be too long to wait, but you've already been doing it on a 6-week cycle lately. I'd be OK with that. But not "real time" every day or every week.
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Rosie Perera said:
From about @2:15: "Continuous development implies that what we will be doing is every day, every week, every month, we'll be trying to improve the software you're using all the time...so if someone's in sermon notes, and there are features that we can continue to enhance real time, we want to provide that, and you might not even know that development is going on."
But what if I don't want to get updates to the software every day/week? That would be very disruptive. Also with the continual release model, testing isn't as robust, so bugs get shoved out the door, with the idea that they can easily be fixed later. But if you've got a sermon to prepare for Sunday, bugs could stop you in your tracks.
I don't want things changing out from under me on a continual basis, even if it's just to fix a bug, since that would encourage hurry and sloppiness to get fixes released quickly. I'd rather all of that get collected into regular, scheduled releases, with thorough in-house testing. Sure, 2 years might be too long to wait, but you've already been doing it on a 6-week cycle lately. I'd be OK with that. But not "real time" every day or every week.
Rosie,
After reading this again, I keep thinking of how nice it was when we knew what was available to update. Then could deselect anything we didn't want updating at that time. Gave up on asking for that a long time ago, but would be nice to decide what is being installed and make the choice.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Jeff Rodrigues said:
Would publishers indeed want a piece of what's being made if their resources are rented and not purchased?
Yes, the publishers and authors get their share.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jeremy White said:
Historically they have done this. The Faithlife Essentials (No Library) option that started off as Logos Now.
Yes, some of us have built our libraries and are only interested in features to enhance what we have...and the ability to decide what books we want to continue to buy.
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Thank you for the update.
Blessings in Christ.
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Rosie Perera said:
From about @2:15: "Continuous development implies that what we will be doing is every day, every week, every month, we'll be trying to improve the software you're using all the time...so if someone's in sermon notes, and there are features that we can continue to enhance real time, we want to provide that, and you might not even know that development is going on."
But what if I don't want to get updates to the software every day/week?
The cadence we've tried to adopt through this early access period is something like this:
- The web app gets updated most days.
- People on the beta channel get improvements most weeks.
- People on the stable channel get improvements most months (i.e., every six weeks).
That cadence is fairly similar to what we've been doing for years – the main difference is that the quality of improvements that we're able to bring most weeks/month will go up, because we're not holding things in reserve for an major two-yearly release, but we're actually releasing it to you straight away.
Rosie Perera said:Also with the continual release model, testing isn't as robust, so bugs get shoved out the door, with the idea that they can easily be fixed later.
That's obviously a risk, but we've actually increased our testing as we've moved to this new model. We track metrics on bugs that "escape," and our development teams are held accountable (in a positive way) for reducing that number and keeping it down.
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Lysander Jakobi said:
I am not looking forward to the change over to the subscription system and have no interest in AI functions.
But: I regularly use the sermon editor and have also created all my sermons there for 3 years, searchable and so on.
I have “bought” this feature with my Logos Package (can not remember which version).Will it remain available for free or will it be part of the “sermon preparation” subscription level?
If you've bought a feature, you'll continue to be able to use that feature. We won't take it away from you just because you're not a subscriber. (You wouldn't get enhancements to the sermon editor, though.)
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Bit by grudging bit, one tiny little notch at a time, I am warily chewing on all this. Stewing, steaming, fussing, grimacing, and finding, when I look in the mirror, a reluctant hint of a smile. Hesitant trust is growing.
- What if things get better?
- What if it's not as bad as we imagine?
- What if AI doesn't grab us from behind?
- What if Bill McCarthy is a good guy after all?
- What if Logos isn't turning into a milking machine?
- What if Logos is fair, cleans up, and improves magnificently?
Maybe.
The jury is hung, but far from dead. Let's deliberate a little longer.
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I'm a Christian which means I'm hopeful. So far I see lots to be hopeful about.
I think the people with Logos are trying... what more can you hope for?
Thanks Logos.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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