OT 1 Timothy 5:19

Christian Alexander

I watched a podcast on Saturday so I have been seeping in this topic for a bit now. Link https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/as-in-heaven/church-abuse-dechurched/ And my pastor did a sermon on 1 Tim 5:15-20. In the podcast, Justin Holcomb argues that the term "ἐπὶ" in 1 Timothy 5:19 means "before" or rather than "on the evidence of". I cannot find this in any translation of the Greek text nor in any commentaries I have read. I read the following commentaries.  The Message of 1 Timothy & Titus by John R. W. Stott, The Pastoral Epistles. TNTC by Osvaldo Padilla, First Timothy by John MacArthur, Pastoral Epistles by Homer A. Kent, Jr,  Reading Paul’s Letters to Individuals: A Literary and Theological Commentary on Paul's Letters to Philemon, Titus, and Timothy by W. Hulitt Gloer and Perry L. Stepp, Sheffield New Testament Guides: The Pastoral Epistles by Margaret Davies, The Pastoral Epistles by Donald Guthrie, and The Pastoral Letters Cambridge Bible Commentaries on the New Testament by Anthony T. Hanson. What am I missing? Can Logos help me determine if this is the correct textual basis that Holcomb uses? I know that Holcomb is an Episcopal priest and a professor of Theological Studies at Reformed Theological Seminary and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. On a side note I saw where Rick Brannan wrote a resource on 1 Timothy called, First Timothy (Lexical Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles). I do not own it. Does it notate anything on this verse? 

DAL

1. “The longer text of the sources makes it quite clear that the epi is to be understood as “on the evidence of” (i.e. on the oral testimony, the “mouth” of):” https://www.logos.com/product/7451/the-first-and-second-letters-to-timothy-vol-1-and-2

2. “1 Timothy 5:19 (NIGTC 1Ti-Tt): That ἐπί means “on the basis of,” i.e., “on the evidence of,” rather than “before” in the sense of “in the presence of” seems most likely since this passage, like Mt. 18:16; 2 Cor. 13:1, which have the same use of ἐπί, reflects the OT teaching on the testimony given by witnesses (Dt. 19:15; cf. also Jn. 8:17; Dt. 17:6; Heb. 10:28).  1 Timothy 5:19 (NIGTC 1Ti-Tt): This understanding is shown to be correct for Mt. 18:16 and 2 Cor. 13:1 by the use of στόματος (in accordance with the Masoretic text and the LXX) after ἐπί. Even though στόματος is not used in 1 Tim. 5:19, the sense is the same as in Heb. 10:28, where ἐπί is also used without στόματος and where it is clear that it is the testimony of witnesses that is spoken of.” https://www.logos.com/product/3464/the-pastoral-epistles

3. “1 Timothy 5:19 (The Pastoral Epistles: A Commentary on the Greek Text): Paul uses the preposition ἐπί (upon) in its extended sense to indicate the basis of something (S. Porter 1994: 160–61), here two or three witnesses.” https://www.logos.com/product/218164/the-pastoral-epistles-a-commentary-on-the-greek-text 

DAL

MJ. Smith

Christian Alexander said:

In the podcast, Justin Holcomb argues that the term "ἐπὶ" in 1 Timothy 5:19 means "before" or rather than "on the evidence of".

One of my favorite Newman Center priests once said in a sermon to NEVER believe what a pastor preaches if he says "what X it really means is ...". It is an indication of an arrogant preacher who thinks his small knowledge of Greek/Hebrew exceeds that of the language scholars who have spent 50 years immersed the language. Note that those who say the English does not capture the whole of the original language meaning do not violate the rule.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1300391#Comment_1300391

Even the plain reading which goes back to Deuteronomy for multiple witnesses wouldn't call for something special from the Greek. 

Rick Brannan

Christian Alexander said:

In the podcast, Justin Holcomb argues that the term "ἐπὶ" in 1 Timothy 5:19 means "before" or rather than "on the evidence of". I cannot find this in any translation of the Greek text nor in any commentaries I have read.

I guess I don't see any functional difference in the interpretation reading "before" or "on the evidence of". επι is a mutlivalent function word (20+ 'senses' in Louw-Nida!) that doesn't have a single associated lexical meaning.

Since I hold the copyright, I have no problem reproducing the text from the note on this area of 1Ti 5:19 in my commentary:

------

[quote]

except on the evidence of two or three witnesses

The Greek word translated “except” is the adverb ἐκτός. Here it has the meaning of ‘unless’ or ‘except,’ though in general it has to do with being outside of something. Similar usage is found in First Corinthians:

[quote]Now I want you all to speak with tongues, but even more that you may prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks with tongues, unless he interprets, in order that the church may receive edification. (1Co 14:5, emphasis added)

by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose. (1Co 15:2, emphasis added)

The phrase “on the evidence of two or three witnesses” may be an allusion to the gospel of Matthew:

[quote]“Now if your brother sins against you, go correct him between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take with you in addition one or two others, so that by the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. (Mt 18:15–16, emphasis added)

Or perhaps a recollection from Second Corinthians:

[quote]This is the third time I am coming to you. By the testimony of two or three witnesses every word will be established. (2Co 13:1, emphasis added)

Or perhaps from the Torah:

[quote]“One witness shall not stand to be a witness against a man as regards any injustice and as regards any offence and according to any sin that he may have sinned; on the mouth of two witnesses and upon the mouth of three witnesses any word shall stand. (De 19:15, emphasis added)

Whatever the source, the thought that charges must be substantiated by the testimony “of two or three witnesses” is not a foreign one, it is rooted in Torah, in the sayings of Jesus, and witnessed in earlier Pauline letters. Accusations hurled against elders that are unsubstantiated are to be ignored; charges testified to by two or more must be considered and dealt with.

Rick Brannan, First Timothy, Lexical Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles (Appian Way Press, 2016), 239–240.