a question from an Accordance User
Comments
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John said:
I was happy to finally see someone telling the truth about the AI hype recently as Goldman Sachs says AI is overhyped and warns investors to prepare for a large bubble ending in similar manner to the .com bubble.
I have a hard time believing it will fizzle out, but I hope so. I really dislike AI.
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John said:
I’m not happy about Logos slowly evolving into an online dependent client/server system. And I’m absolutely certain that the AI fad will fizzle out in time. But I am happy Logos has a good chance of surviving given the new subscription model.
It is not for everyone, but have found smart search to be useful in mining my massive Logos library and summarizing resources. I think the way they are implementing it into the help Centre search is also a value add.
With this said, it is generally overhyped, particularly because many are already using elements of AI and don’t even know it.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I’m not happy about Logos slowly evolving into an online dependent client/server system. And I’m absolutely certain that the AI fad will fizzle out in time. But I am happy Logos has a good chance of surviving given the new subscription model.
Could you clarify this? When you buy a resource in Logos, you OWN that resource and you aren't renting it like a subscription. Correct? I wouldn't buy anything if it is the later.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I didn’t write this, but yes, you own resources you buy under a perpetual license.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
it is generally overhyped, particularly because many are already using elements of AI and don’t even know it.
I agree people use it without even knowing it, and that is fine. The concern I have is that it is getting woven into sites where people used to go for reputable information, which is obviously problematic with the relatively frequent factual errors and known bias. Sometimes the errors, like recommending putting glue on pizza to thicken the sauce (like it did recently), are just ridiculous , but it also shows that it can't be trusted for any serious study. I also don't like that it seems to be taking more and more jobs, and overall seems to be a net loss for society.
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Kristin said:
Is this clarified anywhere, or does anyone know?
lots of people on he forum know how to work the system. It definitely pays to wait for the best sale.
You can spend a lot on Logos, so you might want to buy a package that has most of what you need already included.
It is good to have a plan. I spent a lot more than I had originally intended, but buy adding legacy packages I picked up a lot of good resources very cheap. It is actually a lot of fun.
If you have limited budget, you should probably stick with Accordance, assuming you already own all or most of what you need. It is an industry wide crime that a purchase of a resource on one program does not transfer to another platform.
As far as Bibleworks, it still runs if you have a valid license. I have it running on macOs.
last I checked , the old Bibleworks forum was completely non-functional, but the update and activation servers were still functioning.
Bibleworks 7 running on Apple silicon M2 using WineHQ and Rosetta
If you have a valid license, why would you not still use it? [:)]
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John said:
If you have limited budget, you should probably stick with Accordance, assuming you already own all or most of what you need.
If Accordance keeps functioning, I would love to do that, but I am not sure how practical that will be given the data loss issues @Donovan said above.
John said:As far as Bibleworks, it still runs if you have a valid license. I have it running on macOs.
I think the key is that you have BibleWorks 7, and it appears to run different than BibleWorks 9. I personally only had BibleWorks 9, and the way that software unfortunately worked, it connected to the server during launch. So then when BibleWorks went under, anyone using BibleWorks 9 was instantly locked out. So when I switched to Accordance, one of the number one concerns I had was about this, but I was assured that Accordance only connected to the server when I download something. (I turned off my Wi-Fi and launched Logos, and it works fine, so thankfully Logos is like Accordance in that regard).
So that is the sad story of BW 9
John said:It is an industry wide crime that a purchase of a resource on one program does not transfer to another platform.
I agree 100%.
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John said:
If you have limited budget, you should probably stick with Accordance, assuming you already own all or most of what you need. It is an industry wide crime that a purchase of a resource on one program does not transfer to another platform.
As far as Bibleworks, it still runs if you have a valid license. I have it running on macOs.
last I checked , the old Bibleworks forum was completely non-functional, but the update and activation servers were still functioning.
I will keep Accordance up the date with minimal investment, but until there is a massive change in the values, culture and delivery on promises, I will not spend another penny on resources. I have too many disks collecting dust — PC Study Bible, QuickVerse and WordSearch, to act as a history lesson that I need to see some positive changes to regain my trust.
With that said, I am impressed you are still able to run BibleWorks. Great programme. I nearly bought it instead of Accordance years ago.
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I believe that if you hold down the control key or something like that, you can launch Logos in offline mode.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I believe that if you hold down the control key or something like that, you can launch Logos in offline mode.
I thankfully just needed to open it.
I just disconnected myself from the internet and launched Logos, and it worked fine. I also opened a random resource to check, and it opened without an issue.0 -
Back in the day, Accordance was Mac only, and BibleWorks was Windows only. Whenever we were at a trade show, we (Accordance) would send Windows users to the BibleWorks booth, and they'd send Mac users to us. Accordance and BibleWorks both targeted the academic market, and our users were usually very invested in biblical languages. Logos was more targeted toward the pastoral market. Over the years, Accordance created a Windows app and added more pastoral resources. Logos targeted the original language market. BibleWorks sort of missed the boat by not creating a native Mac app, and no mobile app. They also never expanded much beyond biblical texts and lexicons, so their income was completely dependent on people upgrading to a new release. It wasn't a workable model. I appreciate that Logos is thinking ahead, and is doing what they need to do in order to remain strong into the future. A subscription model is part of that. Wether you're a fan of subscriptions or not, it's probably what they need to do in order to remain profitable, and they're not going to end up in the same place that BibleWorks did.Donovan R. Palmer said:With that said, I am impressed you are still able to run BibleWorks. Great programme. I nearly bought it instead of Accordance years ago.
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Yep. I have used Logos off of the grid many times.
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Mark Allison said:
Back in the day, Accordance was Mac only, and BibleWorks was Windows only. Whenever we were at a trade show, we (Accordance) would send Windows users to the BibleWorks booth, and they'd send Mac users to us. Accordance and BibleWorks both targeted the academic market, and our users were usually very invested in biblical languages. Logos was more targeted toward the pastoral market. Over the years, Accordance created a Windows app and added more pastoral resources. Logos targeted the original language market. BibleWorks sort of missed the boat by not creating a native Mac app, and no mobile app. They also never expanded much beyond biblical texts and lexicons, so their income was completely dependent on people upgrading to a new release. It wasn't a workable model. I appreciate that Logos is thinking ahead, and is doing what they need to do in order to remain strong into the future. A subscription model is part of that, but like it or not, they're not going to end up in the same place that BibleWorks did.
It is important to remember that early Bible Software was platform specific, but that has changed to multi-platform being the standard. Mobile and web apps can’t be poor cousins either!
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Mark Allison said:
Accordance and BibleWorks both targeted the academic market, and our users were usually very invested in biblical languages. Logos was more targeted toward the pastoral market.
For sure. That is specifically why I went to Accordance after the death of BibleWorks. I am all for original languages and academia and don't use pastoral resources.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Yep. I have used Logos off of the grid many times.
That is great to know, and important for any serious Bible software.
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Kristin said:
I am all for original languages and academia and don't use pastoral resources.
Logos has come a long way in original languages and academic resources. I keep campaigning for more, so please post your ideas as well.
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Logos has come a LONG way. I don't think most Accordance users realize how far they've come.Donovan R. Palmer said:Logos has come a long way in original languages and academic resources.
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Senior Publisher Relations Specialist • Logos Bible Software • Rick.Mansfield@logos.com
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Mark Allison said:
Logos has come a LONG way. I don't think most Accordance users realize how far they've come
That is true for me at least. However, I would still say the Logos layout is nowhere near as friendly for academic study. When I open Accordance, I have my Greek or Hebrew, Bible, notes, and the whole layout is clean and simple. No wasted space since the biblical texts smoothly lays immediately next to each other. By contrast, when I open Logos I feel like it is a webpage, even though I know it isn't. Even if I open a few bibles and put them next to each other, there are still flashing bubbles when a verse is selected and space between versions. Is there a way to make it have more of an Accordance look to it?
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Kristin said:
Is there a way to make it have more of an Accordance look to it?
Want to share a screenshot of what your Accordance Workspace looks like?
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Kristin said:
I think the key is that you have BibleWorks 7, and it appears to run different than BibleWorks 9. I personally only had BibleWorks 9, and the way that software unfortunately worked, it connected to the server during launch.
So then when BibleWorks went under, anyone using BibleWorks 9 was instantly locked out.
I have Bibleworks 5 up through 10.
I did a lot of experimenting recently to see how it ran on a Mac.
Bibleworks up to version 7 install by simply entering the activation codes. version 8 and higher require online activation. You can install and run them without activating for 15 days.
I recently verified that online update patches were functional and still working on versions 7 and higher. I have also recently activated a new BW10 installation. Right now you can still install, activate and use it. Michael Buschell promised to support it as long as he could and he has delivered on that promise.
One of the problems with BW on a new modern computer which s that it was not originally designed for a high resolution display. BW10 had introduced some display scaling features. The picture I posted shows display scaling built into WineHQ which does an acceptable job. You can also run Windows 11 ARM on an M1 or higher Mac which handles x86 emulation and scaling of older Windows programs very well.
All of these solutions are free. WineHQ is from the Linux community and Rosetta is built into your M1 or higher Mac. If you would like more info just ask.
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The most important feature in Logos for this is the Multiple Book Display Button. It is fabulous.
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Mark Allison said:
Want to share a screenshot of what your Accordance Workspace looks like?
Hi Mark,
Here is a very stereotypical layout for me.
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John said:
I have also recently activated a new BW10 installation. Right now you can still install, activate and use it. Michael Buschell promised to support it as long as he could and he has delivered on that promise.
Hi John,
That is good you have had so much success with it. The real problem seemed to be for people who only owned 9.
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Brian Davidson said:
The most important feature in Logos for this is the Multiple Book Display Button. It is fabulous.
Hi Brian,
Thank you for the screenshot. I just find those scroll bars in between each window distracting. It is a small thing, but between everything wastes a lot of space. It also visually doesn't make sense with versions scrolling together, as the whole point is that they are one unit. I appreciate the screenshot though.
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Kristin said:
Kristin, I saw your above visual block. I was reading up on Mark's data loss on A's forum. In it (not to intrude) you expressed reservations on cloud storage of your notes (privacy). Just for info, Logos user data, with exception of personal books, is cloud-based, and not encrypted. Indeed they have expressed rights to user data. For that reason, I keep notes outside Logos. However, Logos' approach may be ok with you.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Kristen, I saw your above visual block. I was reading up on Mark's data loss on A's forum. In it (not to intrude) you expressed reservations on cloud storage of your notes (privacy). Just for info, Logos user data, with exception of personal books, is cloud-based, and not encrypted. Indeed they have expressed rights to user data. For that reason, I keep notes outside Logos. However, Logos' approach may be ok with you.
Hi DMB,
Thank you so much for the info!! I greatly appreciate it, as frankly, that had not occurred to me, and no, keeping my notes, or any of my personal info on Logos' cloud, is for sure NOT ok. So I will for sure not put any academic notes in Logos, and frankly, it makes me think I should stop messing around with this "personal book." I had previously been under the impression that the personal book is ONLY uploaded to my Logos software on my computer, but NOT uploaded to the cloud.
Given what you wrote, is it only notes which are stored on Logos' cloud? Are the personal books only on my computer as I had previously thought? And similarly, since I had been under the impression that it was only on my computer, I did try uploading my User Bible as a test. I have now deleted it, if I delete it (or a note) is it deleted off of the Logos server? You are right that I am hardcore about privacy and appreciate you bringing this to my attention.0 -
Kristin, I think this is pretty close to what you're using in Accordance.Kristin said:Here is a very stereotypical layout for me.
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Kristin said:
Given what you wrote, is it only notes which are stored on Logos' cloud? Are the personal books only on my computer as I had previously thought? And similarly, since I had been under the impression that it was only on my computer, I did try uploading my User Bible as a test. I have now deleted it, if I delete it (or a note) is it deleted off of the Logos server? You are right that I am hardcore about privacy and appreciate you bringing this to my attention.
- Personal books themselves are NOT auto-uploaded by Logos. Their metadata, however, is (eg title, etc that you might see in the library).
- Manually uploaded personal books CAN'T be deleted (from the server). Others may correct me; else customer service.
- 'Uploaded' includes such as highlights, notes, layouts, workflows and on and on. I'd assume your notes would be your main concern.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Kristin said:Mark Allison said:
Want to share a screenshot of what your Accordance Workspace looks like?
Hi Mark,
Here is a very stereotypical layout for me.
I think UI design is partly down to how one’s brain works and your workflow. Where I think the Accordamce UI is very strong is with a set of resources you know and want to use really well. Where I think it is weak for me is when I want to jump from an exegetical concept and explore resources I am not even aware I have in some cases. In this instance, I find the Accordance UI constraining. But that is my brain and workflow.
One of the things I like to do is to try to replicate a workflow from one programme to another. I have a couple of Logos layouts that are Accordance inspired and vice versa. (I have a Bibleworks inspired layout as well) Doing this always forces me to really maximize the UI strengths of each programme.
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Kristin said:
Is there a way to make it have more of an Accordance look to it?
Accordance, like Bibleworks, uses a relatively fixed layout that works well for a lot of people, but is very limited in customization. Logos on the other hand, allows you to create your own layouts and make them exactly the way you want them. You can make your own layouts (or one of the built-in standard ones) open by default when you open the program.
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John said:
You can make your own layouts (or one of the built-in standard ones) open by default when you open the program.
Can you share layouts?
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DMB said:
Manually uploaded personal books CAN'T be deleted (from the server). Others may correct me; else customer service.
Wow, that is huge. [:'(] I had thought I had checked about whether they were ONLY on my Logos or not, but apparently I was mistaken. So even though I pressed "delete" and I don't have access to it, it is still viewable on Logos? This is not only a huge privacy concern but a safety concern as well. I am not the only person who works with people in "closed countries" and I just flat out can't have my stuff floating around on clouds. Who has access to the stuff I uploaded? Who can I contact about getting off the server if deleting it doesn't work?
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Kristin said:
The real problem seemed to be for people who only owned 9
I have been using 9 on my old Windows 7 machines as my primary software. I never liked the interface in 10 as much.
Anyway since my last post, I decided to go check the Bibleworks website to see if the forum was back up. It isn't, and apparently online activation is also no longer functional.
www.bibleworks.com">
Recent News
7/15/2024 I am still commited to enabling licensed owners of BibleWorks 9 and 10 to use the program for as long as possible. However, as of 7/12/2024 the BibleWorks Forum, Knowledge Base and Activation Server are no longer functional. This is due to changes in the MySQL system on the site that hosts BibleWorks. Getting the old web site working with these mandatory system software updates would be a major undertaking. It is, frankly, beyond my area of expertise. I am, however, providing a solution that allows licensed users to update the program periodically and reinstall when necessary on a new computer.
Following this message, are instructions on how to still install and activate your legally licensed copy, either 9 or 10.
I'm not trying to talk you into this, just wanted to be sure you know your options.
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Kristin said:
Wow, that is huge.
I had thought I had checked about whether they were ONLY on my Logos or not, but apparently I was mistaken. So even though I pressed "delete" and I don't have access to it, it is still viewable on Logos? Let's make sure of what is safe or not:
- When I say 'uploaded' I'm referring to you uploading/sharing the personal book to the servers. This a manual action; most people don't bother (personal books aren't supported on mobiles or app.logos.com). It's these uploaded PBs that can't be deleted.
- You might be referring to 'uploaded' from your diskdrive to Logos.exe (eg word doc). These can be deleted but it's sometimes tricky.
Does this help?
Added: Absent me being wrong (!), you might contact customer service on Monday. May need bouncing to tech-support. They're quite nice.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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John said:DMB said:
Logos user data, with exception of personal books, is cloud-based, and not encrypted
Can't this be turned off?
Yes and no. One can turn off the web in Settings. But then you can't buy books, or use other web functions.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark Allison said:
Can you share layouts?
I'm not sure, but I am sure someone else will tell you [:)]
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"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Let's make sure of what is safe or not:
- When I say 'uploaded' I'm referring to you uploading/sharing the personal book to the servers. This a manual action; most people don't bother (personal books aren't supported on mobiles or app.logos.com). It's these uploaded PBs that can't be deleted.
- You might be referring to 'uploaded' from your diskdrive to Logos.exe (eg word doc). These can be deleted but it's sometimes tricky.
To be frank, I am not sure what I've done. Based on what you wrote, I think I might be safe. As mentioned, I deleted my books, but I just uploaded a new book which I don't care about as a test and uploaded it the exact same way as the the prior books.
DMB said:Added: Absent me being wrong (!), you might contact customer service on Monday. May need bouncing to tech-support. They're quite nice.
Thank you for letting me know. Hopefully between everyone on this thread we can figure out if I am safe or not, and if we can't figure it out, I will try calling Monday. Thank you for letting me know.
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haha
There isn't a purple blob. It's pink. 1 -
Kristin said:
haha
There isn't a purple blob. It's pink. Looks purple to me [H]
True story: An Optometrist I went to years ago (a very nice lady) once told me that men and women perceived color differently. She said the evidence was that in kindergarten the girls all got boxes of crayons with 64 colors, but the boys were perfectly happy with only 8 [:D]
(she might have been joking, but I'm still not sure)
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Kristin said:
So even though I pressed "delete" and I don't have access to it, it is still viewable on Logos?
You have to specifically make your file PUBLIC.
Here is the process.
1) You make a MS Word-docx file that you want as a Personal Book.
2) You build/make a personal book from said file.
3) You check that the book is how you want it.
4) IF you want to be able to have this same book on other LOGOS installs for computers that you own and that you log into with your account, then you upload that book.
It uploads to your account. This allows you to retrieve that book if you need to reinstall Logos. Now you don't have to rebuild the book from the original docx file.
What does NOT happen is that this book becomes visible/public to every one else using logos. Again, You have to specifically/intentionally make your file PUBLIC.
Yes, it is true that you can not delete a personal book from the server once it is uploaded however there are ways around this (you can make a new docx file with at least a line of text of some sort. Build that as a new personal book using the same book name then upload that file. It will replace the original you no longer want to be there.)
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Kristin said:DMB said:
Manually uploaded personal books CAN'T be deleted (from the server). Others may correct me; else customer service.
Wow, that is huge.
I had thought I had checked about whether they were ONLY on my Logos or not, but apparently I was mistaken.To which I reply "well. duh" - if you are going to build a data recovery system that allows one to recover data accidentally deleted, you can't delete the data's identifier. The identifier has to be present to "recover" a file, even if that file is blank. There are variations data recovery systems with regards to how multiple copies of a documents (versioning) happens and a few have some form of hard deletes i.e. removing all record of a document from the recovery system. Logos/Verbum is NOT designed for data with legal privacy restrictions. It used to have a disclaimer to that effect somewhere, I think. The supposition is that documents being behind you sign-in and available only to you is sufficient security. When you want to impose a more complete delete, simply empty the file and change the name to your personal I Am Empty file.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Allison said:
Can you share layouts?
Unfortunately, no. For faith development leaders/teachers this is a significant shortcoming. Make layouts sharable | Logos needs many more votes.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Roy said:
What does NOT happen is that this book becomes visible/public to every one else using logos. Again, You have to specifically/intentionally make your file PUBLIC.
Hi Roy,
So if I am understanding correctly, my book was never uploaded to anything since I never clicked "upload" and only clicked "build" (as shown on my screenshot). Is this correct?
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John said:
An Optometrist I went to years ago (a very nice lady) once told me that men and women perceived color differently.
That is really interesting. I know people sometimes see color differently, but I didn't know there was also a gender difference. That makes me feel like the differences in how people see color is more dramatic than I realized.
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