a question from an Accordance User
Comments
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Kristin said:
1. Regarding the lex / lemma situation, while I understand how Accordance and Logos handle it differently, (such as how to record εἶπον, for example), is it correct that in Logos that ALL words are filed somewhere. By that I mean, in Accordance if I look for the lex of λέγω it will also capture εἶπον, but if in Logos I ALSO look for εἶπον, I will be able to capture all words. Thus, there are no words which are not tagged as showing up on a lemma search in Logos. Is this correct? (I would also like to mention that I am not referring to untagged errors, but rather an entire word which is not marked anywhere). Also, for Accordance users, this is the case for Accordance as well, correct? That apart from random errors, ALL words are accounted for under a lex somewhere. Is this correct?
Did you try the Bible Word study? The red arrow points to a little speaker icon ... press that and it will pronounce the word. And it shows word counts.
Does your library have The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament?
It shows all Cognate words, all the forms, and for each sense a Louw Nida number, followed by the exact number of instances where it is found in the NT, and each reference.
I do not know Greek well, and I am still not sure exactly what you are doing in your work. But I am wondering why you would rely on the search feature of any software for an accurate count, when so many lexicons and reference works already give exact counts?
Is any of this helpful?
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Kristin said:
By that I mean, in Accordance if I look for the lex of λέγω it will also capture εἶπον, but if in Logos I ALSO look for εἶπον, I will be able to capture all words.
Logos has root grouping of related lemma's. Bible Study Search for lemma.g:εἶπον OR root.g:λεγω has lemma results in one color with root results in another:
Right click on a word in Logos (or Verbum) shows lemma & root (in resources that have root groupings).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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John said:
Did you try the Bible Word study? The red arrow points to a little speaker icon ... press that and it will pronounce the word. And it shows word counts.
Hi John,
Thank you for the screenshot. I had actually totally forgotten about the “word study,” so I appreciate it. [:)] Actually, that is not what I meant though. What I am actually trying to do is to select a random paragraph and have my computer speak to me. I had been in ANET and just wanted the computer to read one of the paragraphs, but my Mac speak hotkey seems to be disabled in Logos. I know about the “read aloud” option, but that seems to just start at the beginning and doesn’t just read the part I selected. Is there a way for it to only read what I select?John said:Does your library have The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament? It shows all Cognate words, all the forms, and for each sense a Louw Nida number, followed by the exact number of instances where it is found in the NT, and each reference.
I apparently do.
I had to check. Just to make sure I understand, this records all the words, but BDAG does as well, correct? One distinction is of course following Lowe and Nida, which I will keep in mind.
John said:I do not know Greek well, and I am still not sure exactly what you are doing in your work. But I am wondering why you would rely on the search feature of any software for an accurate count, when so many lexicons and reference works already give exact counts?
I am not actually looking for an exact count. My question is actually regarding if Logos has filed all words as some sort of lex (lemma) which is searchable within the text. In order to clarify my question, I have tried to find an example. The only example I can think of at the moment is in Hebrew, so I hope that is ok. Taking the word וְ, for example, this word is in HALOT without a problem, and in The Lexham Analytical Lexicon in Hebrew. However, these are lexicons and I am concerned with the text.If I click on וְ in Logos when it is attached to אֵ֥ת, Logos opens אֵ֥ת and gives me all the search functionality to look up אֵ֥ת. If I click on וְ in Logos when it is attached to בדל, Logos brings up בדל. Again, this is just an example, but it appears that וְ is not a word which is associated with a Logos lemma. (In Accordance when I right click on וְ I can instantly search for the lexeme of the word without a problem). So the question is, are there words in the text which are not associated with any lemma, and are just words which get looped into other words. (וְ is a sort of imperfect example, but I hope it conveys my question).The other question concerns Accordance. Using the same example, I know that וְ of course (thankfully) is associated with its own lexeme (aka a lemma in Logos). However, I am wondering if there are words which are not recorded as an independent lexeme in Accordance? Or is the idea that every word is accounted for?Logos has root grouping of related lemma's. Bible Study Search for lemma.g:εἶπον OR root.g:λεγω has lemma results in one color with root results in another
Hi Keep Smiling 4 Jesus,
Thank you for the screenshot, and that is super helpful.
My actual question is concerned with words which are sort of free-roaming lemmaless words in Logos (like described above), but this is for sure really helpful for these situations where Accordance and Logos file words differently. Right click on a word in Logos (or Verbum) shows lemma & root (in resources that have root groupings).
Oh! This is cool too! Thank you for the screenshot. [:)] It makes me happy seeing εἶπεν and λέγω together again!
Keep Smiling
This literally almost made me cry. It has been such a rough past three years it has often been hardly bearable. Thank you for the reminder.
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Have you tried 'Read Aloud' and set the cursor where you want to start? I do this all the time.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Have you tried 'Read Aloud' and set the cursor where you want to start? I do this all the time.
Hi Donovan,
Thank you for the screenshot. This "sort of" works, but not quite. In ANET it doesn't work at all. No matter what I select or where I am, the "read aloud" starts at the beginning.
Given your screenshot I tried opening a Bible just to see, and what I found is that if I highlight a section the "read aloud" does start reading there, but when it gets to the end of what I have selected it just keeps reading. Is there a way for it to only read what I select?0 -
Kristin said:
but it appears that וְ is not a word which is associated with a Logos lemma.
This is a logical impossibility (or nearly so). As you can see, I show two lemmas ...
By definition, if a word does not have a lemma, it cannot appear in a lexicon because the definition of a lemma is the (head)word of the dictionary entry.
Kristin said:with its own lexeme (aka a lemma in Logos).
Please don't equate them ... it makes me think I've failed in clear communication. [:(]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
This is a logical impossibility (or nearly so). I show two lemmas
Hi MJ,
Thank you for the screenshot. I had only noticed the lemma to the right, but now I see the searchable וְ. This still doesn't address my actual question (as וְ was only an example), but knowing how to search וְ is good to know.
MJ. Smith said:By definition, if a word does not have a lemma, it cannot appear in a lexicon because the definition of a lemma is the (head)word of the dictionary entry.
We of course agree to this (as I mentioned above in my prior post about the lemmas being in dictionaries).
MJ. Smith said:Please don't equate them ... it makes me think I've failed in clear communication.
I was connecting the two for the sake of clarifying. This thread is from an "Accordance" user, and in Accordance it is not called a "lemma" but called a "lexeme." In other words, if I search for a "lexeme" in Accordance, I would get the equivalent of the Logos lemma, and to get the equivalent of a Logos lexeme I would search for "Inflected" in Accordance. I hope this doesn't come across wrong, but I think part of the reason for communication issues is because you are not familiar with Accordance or Accordance terminology. My question had been primarily addressed to people who were familiar with Accordance, hence including Accordance terminology.
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Hi Kristin
Kristin said:In other words, if I search for a "lexeme" in Accordance, I would get the equivalent of the Logos lemma, and to get the equivalent of a Logos lexeme I would search for "Inflected" in Accordance.
Apologies but I was confused by this
I thought the discussion at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/223994/1308814.aspx#1308814 and following was looking at differences in results between searching for an Accordance lexeme and a lemma in Logos.
Please help me understand this.
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Kristin said:
I think part of the reason for communication issues is because you are not familiar with Accordance or Accordance terminology
You are correct I am not familiar with Accordance terminology - I am familiar with linguistics terminology. I have trouble believing Accordance doesn't use standard linguistic terminology, but it doesn't matter in this context. I'll assume you understand.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Graham Criddle said:
Apologies but I was confused by this
I thought the discussion at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/223994/1308814.aspx#1308814 and following was looking at differences in results between searching for an Accordance lexeme and a lemma in Logos.
Please help me understand this.
Hi Graham,
Ya, you are correct that the link you mentioned was trying to reconcile the differences between Accordance and Logos. I mentioned in that post that I thought I needed to wait for Mark, and he was the one who explained the terminology difference to me. (I frankly don't remember if it was a comment he said on this forum, or an email, but it nonetheless got clarified). The above post sort of got resolved by coming to the conclusion that the two databases (of Accordance and Logos), just can't be reconciled, and I was advised to just keep using Accordance for my lex (aka, Logos lemma) search, and then use Logos for other things. While I am kind of concerned that I can't just pick up my work and use either program, I understand the differences better now that I understand what to keep using Accordance for. (And to be honest, some of these things are super basic. Such as copying וְ in this thread is a much simpler process in Accordance).
That all said, my question now was about every word being accounted for. I understand that all the words are in BDAG and HALOT, but rather if every word in the actual text is associated with a lemma. Of course it is grammatically (hence being in a dictionary), but I rather mean every word is associated with a lemma in the actual text, if I were to do a search. I unfortunately can't provide an example, as my question is if such a word occurs or not. Or rather, if Logos' claim is that every single word is included.
The original concern came from the difference between an Accordance lex search and the Logos lemma (as shown in the link you mentioned). Up until very recently, I thought how words were categorized by the lex (lemma...) was basically universally accepted, and realizing that is not the case has been both confusing and concerning, and I want to make sure I am not making other assumptions as I had been.
Just comparing Strongs and Lowe and Nida (which I am familiar with from Accordance), Lowe and Nida take a pretty radically different approach to filing words than Strongs, and I have always felt that words were missing from what I would consider to be the same key, and I am not sure if they are counted at all. Maybe they are, but since my impression is that everyone seems to miss stuff except an Accordance lexeme (everybody being Strongs, Kohlenberger / Mounce, Lowe and Nida, Logos lemma...) I don't want to just assume it has all been filed in some way, when in fact a random word in the text doesn't show up under any search unless directly clicking on it.
Maybe the claim is that every word is accounted for, and this can be verified in some way, but after realizing the radical methodological difference between the Accordance lexeme and Logos lemma, it just made me think I better not assume it.
I hope this makes more sense. It has been sort of challenging to express without a specific example.0 -
Kristin said:
I hope this makes more sense.
I am a bit more confused but I think this is your answer. There is no "word"/"token"/lexical form in the critical editions of the Old and New Testament that does not fall under a lemma of the primary comprehensive dictionaries (including Logos). Note "word" is the common term but is ambiguous; "token" is the computer science term; "lexical form" is the linguistic term. Remember, however, that most lexicons and dictionaries list additional lexical forms only when they are irregular or part of the multi-word lexeme.
Kristin said:Up until very recently, I thought how words were categorized by the lex (lemma...) was basically universally accepted, and realizing that is not the case has been both confusing and concerning
This highlights our real difference: when I was on maternity leave, I entertained myself by creating by hand a concordance to the I Ching - Chinese dictionaries being organized by the radical - a part of the character. In graduate school I studied Sanskrit in which the dictionaries are organized by root and spelling adjusts to reflect fast speech rules (whadyasay for what did you say). My surprise was the Hebrew lexicons were alphabetical rather than 3 letter root.
Kristin said:since my impression is that everyone seems to miss stuff except an Accordance lexeme
The resources themselves usually tell you if they are comprehensive or not. If they seem to "miss stuff" it means you have not found all the available data. For example, Louw-Nida is quite precise regarding the vocabulary it covers:
The data base for this Greek New Testament lexicon consists of the entire vocabulary of the third edition (both text and apparatus) of the Greek New Testament published by the United Bible Societies. The vocabulary, including both individual words and idioms, consists of some five thousand lexical items, with more than twenty-five thousand meanings in all.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kristin said:
That all said, my question now was about every word being accounted for. I understand that all the words are in BDAG and HALOT, but rather if every word in the actual text is associated with a lemma. ... I rather mean every word is associated with a lemma in the actual text, if I were to do a search. ...
Maybe the claim is that every word is accounted for, and this can be verified in some way, but after realizing the radical methodological difference between the Accordance lexeme and Logos lemma, it just made me think I better not assume it.The morphologically-tagged original language texts available in Logos (SBLGNT, LHB, NA28, BHS WIVU, etc.) should all have at least one lemma associated with each inflected form in (what we call) the surface text. (Except for headings such as "ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΘΘΑΙΟΝ" and any other text inserted by editors.)
I don't know that there's any way to verify this in the software, though.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
The morphologically-tagged original language texts available in Logos (SBLGNT, LHB, NA28, BHS WIVU, etc.) should all have at least one lemma associated with each inflected form in (what we call) the surface text. (Except for headings such as "ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΘΘΑΙΟΝ" and any other text inserted by editors.)
Hi Bradley,
Thank you very much for the clarification! That answers my question, and I also appreciate the additional information that headings such as ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΘΘΑΙΟΝ are not included, as they are in Accordance. That is for sure helpful to keep in mind.
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:I don't know that there's any way to verify this in the software, though.
Ok, thank you for letting me know.
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Kristin said:
My obedience of Philippians 4:4 provides reason for me to Keep Smiling 4 Jesus [:D] while [:'(] weeping with weeping [:'(] has had many tears flow while Smiling [:D]
Praying for Holy God's Grace & Shalom [*] to be abundantly experienced [:D]
Keep Smiling [:)]
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My obedience of Philippians 4:4 provides reason for me to Keep Smiling 4 Jesus
while 
weeping with weeping has had many tears flow while Smiling Praying for Holy God's Grace & Shalom
to be abundantly experienced Keep Smiling
Thank you so much! I truly appreciate it!
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For any ex-pat Accordance or Logos-curious folks looking at this thread, don't miss Brian Leathers' excellent post on Original Language Study.
I found this statement from Brian, further down in that thread, to especially ring true:
[quote] Many accordance users believe that logos is only for pastors and pew sitters and is useless for any original language work. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have also set up a layout just like this for studying the new testament using greek lexicons and dictionaries and I love it. Logos is so much better than accordance in speed and use in studying the biblical texts in their original languages.
And while I'm here, if anyone's still on the fence, let me also point to Kevin Purcell's recent blog post, "6 Reasons to Switch from Accordance to Logos Bible Software."
Senior Publisher Relations Specialist
Logos Bible Software0 -
Thanks Rick! [Y] I really enjoyed and appreciated your training videos at Accordance and I'm glad to see that you're happy here at Logos. Thank you for all of your hard work here. [Y]
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Brian Leathers said:
Thanks Rick!
I really enjoyed and appreciated your training videos at Accordance and I'm glad to see that you're happy here at Logos. Thank you for all of your hard work here. Thank you, Brian! There's nowhere else I'd rather be than here at Logos [:)]
Senior Publisher Relations Specialist
Logos Bible Software0 -
Rick Mansfield said:
And while I'm here, if anyone's still on the fence, let me also point to Kevin Purcell's recent blog post, "6 Reasons to Switch from Accordance to Logos Bible Software."
This popped up in my RSS reader. To be frank, Kevin was patient to wait two years to write this and I think he was more than generous in his closing remarks.
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Rick Mansfield said:
For any ex-pat Accordance or Logos-curious folks looking at this thread, don't miss Brian Leathers' excellent post on Original Language Study.
I found this statement from Brian, further down in that thread, to especially ring true:
[quote] Many accordance users believe that logos is only for pastors and pew sitters and is useless for any original language work. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have also set up a layout just like this for studying the new testament using greek lexicons and dictionaries and I love it. Logos is so much better than accordance in speed and use in studying the biblical texts in their original languages.
Hi Rick,
It is always good to see you post, as I miss your posts at Accordance! [:)] Thank you for the links. Concerning the above about the layout, while on one hand I like the look of his layout, on the other hand there is no way I could functionally use it, as my screen isn't large enough for it. I would realistically need to divide it into 2 workspaces. Likewise, while this is great for a certain type of workflow, I personally have at least 10 different workflows open at the same time (ok, fine... I typically have 25 Accordance workspaces open...). Since I refer to different projects so often, it is just not realistic to only have one open at a time. I am familiar with the "floating window," but it just isn't the same as genuine workspace. While I wouldn't say that is the number one reason why I am finding work close to impossible in Logos, it is pretty high up there. Am I really the only person who works with multiple workspaces open at once??
Rick Mansfield said:And while I'm here, if anyone's still on the fence, let me also point to Kevin Purcell's recent blog post, "6 Reasons to Switch from Accordance to Logos Bible Software."
Thank you for this link. I thought he did a great job explaining why Logos is better for certain people. I don't use Android, but everything he wrote about it was really sad, and I can see how frustrating it would be for Android users. Same thing with the cloud or syncing. I don't need those features, but I can see how Logos would be better for people who do.
One thing he said which caught my attention was this:
• Search books you don’t even own – When you search your library, Logos also offers links to books you don’t own. Some might not like this, calling it spam. But, if you need some information in a book you don’t own, you can quickly buy it, download it, and incorporate it into your research.
While I wouldn't call it spam, per se, I am concerned about it as a privacy standpoint, as it makes me feel like my searches in the program are not only on my computer. Is this something which can be edited in settings?
Similarly, I have also been concerned about the "updating wheel," as it seems to be cycling almost constantly, and I am concerned about how much bandwidth it is using. Is there a way for it to only check for updates once or twice a day?
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Kristin said:
While I wouldn't call it spam, per se, I am concerned about it as a privacy standpoint, as it makes me feel like my searches in the program are not only on my computer. Is this something which can be edited in settings? One big reason I only use Logos for info retrieval and reading.
Similarly, I have also been concerned about the "updating wheel," as it seems to be cycling almost constantly, and I am concerned about how much bandwidth it is using. Is there a way for it to only check for updates once or twice a day?
In both cases, you can turn off web access in Settings. But any subsequent re-connect (maybe buy a book, use an internet-required tool) sends your activity to Logos.
Their customer analytics watches your searches on Logos.com. I'd assume the desktop will get similar treatment at some point.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
In both cases, you can turn off web access in Settings. But any subsequent re-connect (maybe buy a book, use an internet-required tool) sends your activity to Logos.
Hi DMB,
Thanks for your response. So if I am understanding correctly, there is no way to tell it to search for updates once or twice a day. The only option is to turn off the web access, then whenever I buy a book, turn it back on, then turn it back off again after it is downloaded? I appreciate the explanation, but I am actually surprised that is the only way, as I am sure I am not the only person who doesn't appreciate it checking for updates every minute.
DMB said:Their customer analytics watches your searches on Logos.com. I'd assume the desktop will get similar treatment at some point.
Thank you for letting me know. I do most searches in private, so that would be concerning if they are spying on me from the desktop app. I will try to take a look at this. The word "analytics" is underlined like a link, but it doesn't connect to anything. Was this a link?
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Kristin said:
The only option is to turn off the web access, then whenever I buy a book, turn it back on, then turn it back off again after it is downloaded?
My setting re Download Automatically is set to No; it has been thus for over a decade.
So, I buy a book. By an hour later, its title is listed in my Library.
I click the book. I click the blue download button over to the right. Now I can read it.
The hour is approximate.
I have never touched the No setting since the original set to No move.
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Kristin said:
While I wouldn't call it spam, per se, I am concerned about it as a privacy standpoint, as it makes me feel like my searches in the program are not only on my computer. Is this something which can be edited in settings?
Logos searches only the Logos library in it's broadest search (the All search). All other searches are limited to your library, but not necessarily limited to those on a particular computer.
Kristin said:Similarly, I have also been concerned about the "updating wheel," as it seems to be cycling almost constantly, and I am concerned about how much bandwidth it is using. Is there a way for it to only check for updates once or twice a day?
It is not generally checking for updates - you can control when it checks for and downloads updates. It is syncing your activity with the cloud so that your work is available on all devices and is not lost with a loss in power or other interruption. Cloud and syncing are your protection against a catastrophic computer failure, something most researchers are concerned with.
Kristin said:Since I refer to different projects so often, it is just not realistic to only have one open at a time.
Those of us who started in the pre-personal computer days, find it as difficult to understand your style of research as you do understanding ours which is one uncluttered workspace. I wish Accordance well as it seems to be a better match for you.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Those of us who started in the pre-personal computer days, find it as difficult to understand your style of research as you do understanding ours which is one uncluttered workspace.
Some of us who started in the PC days also find it difficult to understand the cluttered approach.
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Kristin said:
The word "analytics" is underlined like a link, but it doesn't connect to anything. Was this a link?I underlined analytics, to distingish making your work available across devices (important), vs Logos using your work for marketing to you/others (analytics).
It's the main reason I use Logos for info retrieval and reading only, and my own software for actual work. In Logos's favor from early on, data export has been a real blessing. I'm careful to observe 'personal use'.
BTW I finally realized that your multiple workspaces in Accordance = multiple layouts in Logos. Logosians have long wanted that capability (instead of work-arounds). In Accordance, I usually have 3-4 open.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Kristin said:
Likewise, while this is great for a certain type of workflow, I personally have at least 10 different workflows open at the same time (ok, fine... I typically have 25 Accordance workspaces open...).
@Kristin - as you are a hard core user of having multiple workspaces open simultaneously, Logos will always frustrate you at fundamental level. Over the years, I have advocated for this capability more than once and opened a feedback item on this, but I currently hold very little hope this will change any time soon, if ever. Accordance is still living (and I hope it continues to do so), so I would suggest that this is your primary platform of choice for your needs and use cases on this alone. If I were your shoes, I would continue to own Logos and play to its strengths when something makes sense to you. I have done this for many years and have gained a lot from both. Plus, you are a great addition to both communities.
Kristin said:Similarly, I have also been concerned about the "updating wheel," as it seems to be cycling almost constantly, and I am concerned about how much bandwidth it is using. Is there a way for it to only check for updates once or twice a day?
For years I have used Logos in very poor internet conditions in places like Africa, so I closely monitored what Logos needed and was doing. Unless you are downloading resources, Logos' use of the internet is negligible. In fact, depending on how your computer is configured, you might very well have other apps that at times demand more bandwidth in the background than what it does. With this said, you can make some adjustments in settings and even launch Logos into an 'offline mode'.
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scooter said:
My setting re Download Automatically is set to No; it has been thus for over a decade.
So, I buy a book. By an hour later, its title is listed in my Library.
I click the book. I click the blue download button over to the right. Now I can read it.
The hour is approximate.
I have never touched the No setting since the original set to No move
Thank you so much! I turned it to off. [:)]
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Jonathan Huber said:
Some of us who started in the PC days also find it difficult to understand the cluttered approach.
Amen. [:)] That is why I like all my independent work to be segregated into independent workspaces.
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Kristin said:scooter said:
My setting re Download Automatically is set to No; it has been thus for over a decade.
So, I buy a book. By an hour later, its title is listed in my Library.
I click the book. I click the blue download button over to the right. Now I can read it.
The hour is approximate.
I have never touched the No setting since the original set to No move
Thank you so much! I turned it to off.
You are most welcome.
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