a question from an Accordance User
Comments
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Mark Allison said:
And look how well that model has worked for Bible Software companies. I'd rather pay a few dollars a month for a subscription than pay thousands of dollars for books I can no longer use.
Logos is still the same model. They are still selling you the resources as they always have. The only difference is that the promise made long ago that the software would always be free first became a tiered system of paying extra for “datasets” and features, and now is evolving into a rental situation.
Before they are finished I predict that they will be renting out the resources too. They are already including hundreds of books as a package included in the subscriptions.
Bible software companies used to do just fine, and so did Christian bookstores. The bookstores are gone now for similar reasons as the software.
Christian bookstores had a shrinking market and online competition. Amazon has run almost all of the traditional bookstores out of business. Where I live, Barnes & Noble is the only one left. And it is shrinking in selection.
Bible software also has a shrinking market, combined with more and better choices at the entry level which are FREE.
Bibleworks still had a market of loyal users when it was shut down. The owner just decided to retire and not pass it on. One of the reasons he cited was a shrinking pool of seminary students who had interest in original languages. I also believe he was not charging enough money to support the development to adapt to newer platforms.
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John said:
Bible software companies used to do just fine,
Yes, the glory days of "big" Bible software are probably over, for many of the reasons you've stated. Which is exactly why companies like Logos need to stay ahead of a changing market. Kudos to them; they're the only Bible software company seemingly able to do that. Accordance is struggling, and it appears that OliveTree is in the same situation. Accordance doesn't have the internal resources to shift to a subscription model (heck, they don't even have the resources to update their software in a timely manner) even though I'm sure their management have a desire to do so.
With Logos, you'll always own the books you've already purchased, and—worse case scenario—you'll always be able to read them on all your devices and perform basic searches even without a subscription. Which still makes books in Logos a better value than paper books.0 -
I totally understand why Logos is going subscription. Owning Logos right now where you can take advantage of the fall back license, it seems the best of both worlds. If anyone thinks they might ever want to buy Logos, this might be the time to jump in to leverage the benefits of the old and new models regarding features.
With this said, Logos will need to compete harder than ever for our business in this new model. With free platforms nipping away at this niche business, they will need to demonstrate value month after month. IT NEEDS TO BE EXCITING AGAIN. The good news for us as users is that we don't have to wait two years to see what's next. The challenge for them will be to keep up this kind of development. Logos Now was a fail, so I can see why Logos has been consolidating their business to focus on their core product. They need to innovate and deliver, all the time. Not just software wise, but in resources as well.
As far as Accordance goes, this is why a number of users started expressing deep alarm. If Accordance cannot deliver the new features of version 14 launched nearly two years ago, how is it going to survive? Add to the list, a web app that has been promised for some time, mobile apps that have seen little real development for a few years, and resources like journals that desperately need updated. The major component that they are working to deliver, syncing, is really a feature that has been around in many other products for 10 - 20 years. (by the way, once you get syncing right, the note taking solution needs a complete overhaul, requiring yet more investment and time). Anyhow, concerns, sometimes passionate because of the love and loyalty to Accordance, resulted in the forum being organised in a way to suppress feedback, and in more extreme cases, removed threads and even banned users. (You can imagine how this has impacted the community crowd supported culture of the product) I hope they can make it, but I expressed this hopeful sentiment nearly two years ago and here we are as time marches on. Two years in the tech industry is an eternity.
I don't know about the situation in Olive Tree, but I can imagine they feel the pressure of the free market as well, maybe more so. They are not a full blown academic solution, so as a high quality middle of the road platform, can they create enough value and cash flow to keep users engaged and acquire new ones?
Obviously, we all have the danger of being arm chair generals when it comes to the Bible software market, but from what I can tell, Logos has the current best chance of being a premium product for the foreseeable future. There are many things that I like about Accordance and I think the peer to peer competition is very healthy, but right now I think the Bible software market is competing against staying in business more than anything. Rough handling users and not mastering transparent communication, only seems to compound the problem. This is the state of the market: Adapt or die. Interesting times!
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Obviously, we all have the danger of being arm chair generals when it comes to the Bible software market, but from what I can tell, Logos has the current best chance of being a premium product for the foreseeable future. There are many things that I like about Accordance and I think the peer to peer competition is very healthy, but right now I think the Bible software market is competing against staying in business more than anything. Rough handling users and not mastering transparent communication, only seems to compound the problem. This is the state of the market: Adapt or die. Interesting times!
100%
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Agree with Donovan on Logos having the best chance.
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Mark Allison said:John said:
I view the software in the traditional way. You buy it, you own it. You can run it forever.
And look how well that model has worked for Bible Software companies. I'd rather pay a few dollars a month for a subscription than pay thousands of dollars for books I can no longer use.
100%
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John said:
I am taking steps to ensure that I can still install Logos 10 in the future, just in case that they destroy it with AI junk that I don't want or need.
That is a good idea. I hate AI in Bible software (or anything biblical). I am not a fan of it in general either. It has shown itself to be biased, prone to error, and can even provide advice which is dangerous (like it's "glue on pizza" recommendation it had relatively recently). So the way the world is taking it and running with it as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread is frankly confusing (and deeply concerning).
John said:Many Logos features are already dependent upon an internet connection, as they have been sticking this stuff in there with no real announcement
That's concerning. Connecting to the server is not only a potential privacy issue, but could even be dangerous in certain countries. So it is imperative that I can run the software offline. I had already tried this last week and it ran fine, but given this thread, I am worried if fundamental functions will turn off if there isn't an internet connection.
John said:If I couldn't write my own sermon, I would just get a sermon archive and use one of the millions of them freely available. There are excellent sermons in my library that I have never even looked at. Why would I need a computer to write a sermon for me?
To be honest, I have always found the concept of AI having anything to do with sermons sort of paradoxical. I mean, the whole concept is built on using that doesn't even have breath to write a sermon. It just sounds off, even on the surface.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
With this said, Logos will need to compete harder than ever for our business in this new model. With free platforms nipping away at this niche business, they will need to demonstrate value month after month. IT NEEDS TO BE EXCITING AGAIN.
Smiling, but I doubt that's in the cards. Logos used to exciting ... big unbelievable sales. Community pricing that actually delivered. Prepubs that got shipped. And a CEO that pondered choices, on the forum, during flights home.
People chat about the software, but the money's in the books. And the owner needs his return on investment. Few people use the features usually (this one or that one). And eventually ask about value. That was the issue on Now ... they couldn't deliver excitement. This fall, yes, excitement. Later, I'd guess 'subscriptions' will be a student market. Two years and collect the fallback.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Kristin said:
That's concerning. Connecting to the server is not only a potential privacy issue, but could even be dangerous in certain countries. So it is imperative that I can run the software offline. I had already tried this last week and it ran fine, but given this thread, I am worried if fundamental functions will turn off if there isn't an internet connection.
For most of my Logosian years (I guess, maybe almost 20), I've operated offline (Libronix>Logos). For several years, I never linked to the server. But, in recent years, new features, both desktop and mobile, are more and more, server-based. In my daily toil and trouble, I don't see much problem, because I don't want/use those recent features.
So, given your preferences, and your Pro, I think you could easily go years offline (if needed).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Frank Jones said:
AI will eventually have some form of integration into the Apple Silicon OS.
I know, that is super creepy. I watched the keynote and my understanding is that it is Siri on steroids. So currently, Apple lets you completely disable Siri (which I do of course). So I am hoping it will be the same with the AI junk, that I can disable it in settings. We will see.
Mark Allison said:With Logos, you'll always own the books you've already purchased, and—worse case scenario—you'll always be able to read them on all your devices and perform basic searches even without a subscription.
That's important and good to hear.
Mark Allison said:Which still makes books in Logos a better value than paper books.
Hopefully that is correct, and I am making a good financial decision. The idea of just getting a bunch of paper books actually did occur to me (since I hate this AI / subscription direction). But since the subscription is optional, it seems like the better option. I think.
Donovan R. Palmer said:Anyhow, concerns, sometimes passionate because of the love and loyalty to Accordance, resulted in the forum being organised in a way to suppress feedback, and in more extreme cases, removed threads and even banned users. (You can imagine how this has impacted the community crowd supported culture of the product)
This is unfortunately true. [:(]
DMB said:That was the issue on Now ... they couldn't deliver excitement.
This "Logos Now" thing has been mentioned a few times now. What was that?
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Kristin said:
This "Logos Now" thing has been mentioned a few times now. What was that?
It was introduced here - https://community.logos.com/forums/t/128846.aspx - which provides some context.
It probably changed a bit during its life but I forget the details.
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DMB said:
So, given your preferences, and your Pro, I think you could easily go years offline (if needed).
That's great to hear! [:)]
Graham Criddle said:It was introduced here - https://community.logos.com/forums/t/128846.aspx - which provides some context.
It probably changed a bit during its life but I forget the details.
Thank you for the link. I will check it out.
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Kristin said:
I hate AI in Bible software
The ability to summarize a section of a book is an extremely useful use of AI in Logos, imho.
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Mark Allison said:
The ability to summarize a section of a book is an extremely useful use of AI in Logos, imho.
I also think summarise has been very useful in Smart Search results, helping me triage which resources I want to open. Oh, how I would have so appreciated this ability even more when I was engaged in formal studies. A real time saver, even casually.
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Mark Allison said:Kristin said:
I hate AI in Bible software
The ability to summarize a section of a book is an extremely useful use of AI in Logos, imho.
The summarize feature looks really cool. The big problem with AI is not the tech; it's how the model is trained and what you expect it to do. Doing your homework, making deep fake videos, or giving medical advice based on its perusal of blogs.... very concerning. Searching my old emails to find a relative's flight arrival time (Apple's application) or summarizing a book chapter (Logos)... very helpful.
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Mark Allison said:
The ability to summarize a section of a book is an extremely useful use of AI in Logos, imho.
Agreed. And one of my regular uses of AI in Logos is natural language search against a predefined (by me) collection of titles in my personal Logos library.
Senior Publisher Relations Specialist
Logos Bible Software0 -
Mark Allison said:
The ability to summarize a section of a book is an extremely useful use of AI in Logos, imho.
Hi Mark,
Thank you for the screenshot. So if I understand right, two fat lines next to each other means "two versions" and a fat line with a skinny line next to it means "AI summary." Does this AI thing require the internet?
Jonathan Huber said:The big problem with AI is not the tech; it's how the model is trained and what you expect it to do. Doing your homework, making deep fake videos, or giving medical advice based on its perusal of blogs.... very concerning. Searching my old emails to find a relative's flight arrival time (Apple's application) or summarizing a book chapter (Logos)... very helpful.
You raise a very good point. My main concern is that AI is sticking its nose in places it doesn't belong, and also, that companies are incorporating it without proper transparency. In my situation, my "research" falls under the category you listed above of "homework" and thus AI should have nothing to do with it.
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Kristin said:
So if I understand right, two fat lines next to each other means "two versions" and a fat line with a skinny line next to it means "AI summary.
I'm sorry but I don't understand this - and I can't relate it to Mark's screenshot. Are you able to clarify please?
Kristin said:Does this AI thing require the internet?
Yes - Logos passes a request through to an (a range of) AI engines and then uses that in returning results to the user. So an Internet connection is required.
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Graham Criddle said:
I'm sorry but I don't understand this - and I can't relate it to Mark's screenshot. Are you able to clarify please?
Hi Graham,
I am attaching Mark's screenshot with arrows to what I had been referring to.
Graham Criddle said:Yes - Logos passes a request through to an (a range of) AI engines and then uses that in returning results to the user. So an Internet connection is required.
Thank you for clarifying.
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Kristin said:
I am attaching Mark's screenshot with arrows to what I had been referring to.
I'm not Graham (!), but both are toggle switches. The top-right simply opens/closes the panel. Then, choose translation or summarize. Translation can come with features or subscription; summarize needs their AI subscription.
The top left 'MultiBook' is more powerful (also a feature). If you link panels, often you want a leader/follower. On desktop, that's not supported (it is on mobile). Instead, the Multibook concept is like the Accordance parallel button. You click on the little arrow, and then select matching books, collections, etc. And it remembers your choices. Basically, selected books match by the same index (eg Bible reference or lexicon lemma as examples).
When you get your Pro, there's another choice ... you can take a tagged Bible, link it to a lexicon, and clicking in a word will quickly bring up the lemma in the lexicon. So, there many choices for your work.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Kristin said:
That's important and good to hear.
Mark Allison said:Which still makes books in Logos a better value than paper books.
Hopefully that is correct, and I am making a good financial decision. The idea of just getting a bunch of paper books actually did occur to me (since I hate this AI / subscription direction). But since the subscription is optional, it seems like the better option. I think.
Just make sure that you download the whole library on your HD instead of accessing them over the net.
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DMB said:
When you get your Pro, there's another choice ... you can take a tagged Bible, link it to a lexicon, and clicking in a word will quickly bring up the lemma in the lexicon. So, there many choices for your work.
And, Kristin, if you're used to triple-click from those other guys, you can bring that same muscle-memory to Logos, too! 🤗
Senior Publisher Relations Specialist
Logos Bible Software0 -
Frank Jones said:
Just make sure that you download the whole library on your HD instead of accessing them over the net.
Will it be obvious how to do this? Does it ask if you want to do that?
Rick Mansfield said:And, Kristin, if you're used to triple-click from those other guys, you can bring that same muscle-memory to Logos, too! 🤗
I thought that action sounded familiar. [:)]
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Kristin said:Frank Jones said:
Just make sure that you download the whole library on your HD instead of accessing them over the net.
Will it be obvious how to do this? Does it ask if you want to do that?
In the desktop app settings, there's a section on Internet. You can set whether to work offline, whether to download books, etc.
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Jonathan Huber said:
In the desktop app settings, there's a section on Internet. You can set whether to work offline, whether to download books, etc.
I see, the "Download New Books," I take it. [:)]
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Yes, when one installs it will ask whether you want to install everything or not.
Kristin said:Frank Jones said:Just make sure that you download the whole library on your HD instead of accessing them over the net.
Will it be obvious how to do this? Does it ask if you want to do that?
Rick Mansfield said:And, Kristin, if you're used to triple-click from those other guys, you can bring that same muscle-memory to Logos, too! 🤗
I thought that action sounded familiar.
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Well, it’s official. I’m now part of the Logos family. 😀
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Welcome to the family! You are officially a dual platform user too!
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Senior Publisher Relations Specialist
Logos Bible Software0 -
Welcome to the family!!!
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