Nobody talks about Early Access Libraries...?

Why does nobody mention the new Early Access libraries (Starter 2024 Library, Bronze 2024 Library, Silver 2024 Library)?

https://www.logos.com/early-access/libraries

I mean they are pretty low level but decent in regard to current library packages. Are they a test for the new Logos or a basic library for subscription only users? I didn't get a lot of new resources from the Silver version.

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BKMitchell

Why does nobody mention the new Early Access libraries (Starter 2024 Library, Bronze 2024 Library, Silver 2024 Library)?

Maybe, because they like myself, were not even aware that Early Access Libraries existed?

I mean they are pretty low level but decent in regard to current library packages.

I am not even sure that means, but I am curious if there is anything along the lines of the Original Language library (link) and the Stuttgart Electronic Study Bible library (link2) ?

Matt Hamrick

I didn't want any of the libraries offered. I am waiting for the next release.

Oystein Bergsvik

I also did not know they existed intil just now when i saw this post. Will they release gold and onwards also on early access or we wait intil october?

Frank Sauer

Why does nobody mention the new Early Access libraries (Starter 2024 Library, Bronze 2024 Library, Silver 2024 Library)?

https://www.logos.com/early-access/libraries

I mean they are pretty low level but decent in regard to current library packages. Are they a test for the new Logos or a basic library for subscription only users? I didn't get a lot of new resources from the Silver version.

One reason may be the link that you shared only allows Subscribers to view the libraries..... There is a link that IIRC was posted by Rosie that allowed you to view them even if you aren't a subscriber....

Personally the quick look I took when I used the link that worked, the current L10 libraries seemed to be the better deal, more so now with the Last Chance deals - it may depend on what each user currently has and is looking for in relation to their library.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308089#Comment_1308089

One reason may be the link that you shared only allows Subscribers to view the libraries.....

To address a little more on this, you can view if you add a subscription to your cart....

This does still point to a need for clarification from Logos - is the red box telling users they need a subscription an oversight or just applicable during Early Access or do these Subscriptions come with resources that require Features only available via subscription....

If the latter - then the major question is whether all new libraries will be organized in that manner....

If all new libraries are tied to subscription only features - that would seem to alienate non-subscribers going forward in relation to Library Packages...

So many questions remain.... So few clear answers....

Jan Krohn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308089#Comment_1308089

One reason may be the link that you shared only allows Subscribers to view the libraries..... There is a link that IIRC was posted by Rosie that allowed you to view them even if you aren't a subscriber....

That was me.

Bronze 2024 Library - Faithlife.com

Silver 2024 Library - Faithlife.com

Justin Gatlin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308173#Comment_1308173

If all new libraries are tied to subscription only features - that would seem to alienate non-subscribers going forward in relation to Library Packages...

So many questions remain.... So few clear answers....

I can't find it now but I'm 100% sure they have said the new libraries will be available to subscribers only. In the past, you couldn't buy a library without buying the features unless you were a subscriber, so I assume the logic is the same, just without the option to permanently buy features.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308185#Comment_1308185

That was me.

Bronze 2024 Library - Faithlife.com

Silver 2024 Library - Faithlife.com

Oh! Thanks Jan! That at least gives non-subscribers the ability to view without adding a subscription to their cart.

Also - these links allow me to get to checkout without telling me that I must be a Subscriber - so who knows - maybe one day we will get the answer

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308190#Comment_1308190

If all new libraries are tied to subscription only features - that would seem to alienate non-subscribers going forward in relation to Library Packages...

So many questions remain.... So few clear answers....

If you eventually find that statement please post it here for increased visibility - I didn't recall it being addressed - other than the following from the FAQ

If I buy new books or libraries while I’m subscribed and then unsubscribe, will I lose them?

No, books or libraries you buy are yours forever. If you unsubscribe, you would only lose book access that was included in the subscription.
Can I still buy and keep books, or will they be a subscription too?

None of this changes. You’ll still be able to purchase books, either individually or in a collection, and you’ll own them forever.

I can see these statements leading to confusion in the matter - the first clearly states purchases while subscribed... Which would match with the Red Box error that a Subscription is required....

The second statement could lead one to believe a subscription isn't required - so another area of confusion due to the vagueness in Logos's Early Access roll out and unpreparedness - many of the questions still frustrating users should have had an answer ready before being publicized.... This being one, what Features will be part of the Fallback, what Features are coming up for those who are interested in paying the Annual or two annual payments to lock in the Fallback at the discount price....

I saw users getting blamed for confusion in some regard on another thread - yeah right.... All the confusion is due to Logos not being prepared with answers to questions they had to know would be coming....

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308211#Comment_1308211

I saw users getting blamed for confusion in some regard on another thread - yeah right....

You misunderstood my point. In college I had a professor for micro-economics who got us confused on a particular theory. We spent 3 days on the theory while we asked questions which confused her which further confused us. We finally asked the department head to come in and explain the theory which gave us all a fresh start. Outside this one incident the professor was a good teacher ... but the experience lead her to switch to a research position at a university. My point was that all the confusion of the forum members had initiated a cycle of confusion in everyone trying to read through the forum thread ... and gave myself as an example of one who had got sufficiently confused as to not trust my own explain of the policy.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308222#Comment_1308222

I saw users getting blamed for confusion in some regard on another thread - yeah right....

You misunderstood my point. In college I had a professor for micro-economics who got us confused on a particular theory. We spent 3 days on the theory while we asked questions which confused her which further confused us. We finally asked the department head to come in and explain the theory which gave us all a fresh start. Outside this one incident the professor was a good teacher ... but the experience lead her to switch to a research position at a university. My point was that all the confusion of the forum members had initiated a cycle of confusion in everyone trying to read through the forum thread ... and gave myself as an example of one who had got sufficiently confused as to not trust my own explain of the policy.

And you seem to be missing my point - there is a root cause to the confusion that exists.... You call out the forum members, but need to call out the reason they are confused is Logos, Mark Barnes and the new CEO not providing answers....

They have had months to give clarity, yet drag their feet on clear answers to questions that their customers need to know to make educated decisions on their future with or without Logos and what their spending if any, would be most wisely spent.

We have a last chance sale that ends in a month, yet still no word on what Features are going to be included in the Fallback License and which are not (unless they are sprinkled across the forum threads in vague references - I've not seen any list or clarity.) - and this can directly impact whether customers want to buy the Full Feature Set before the sale is over....

Still no response as to the warning that you have to be subscribed to purchase the new libraries, while there is a work around, will that be going away or is the warning an error? If the new libraries will only be for subscribers, those who may not want to subscribe may want to jump on the last chance library sales (Are the L10 libraries and Legacy Libraries going away for good? Who knows?).

With a month to go for last chance, we should have at a minimum clear and defined answers to simple questions like these - one month is not a long time to consider these types of options - but it seems they already expect customers to pay for what they "may" receive or may not receive - since even Mark doesn't know what features are coming.... What upcoming features will be part of the fallback or will the majority be AI/Cloud requiring a subscription? Is more effort going to be put into Fallback eligible features? Why can't we just purchase and own the Features that would qualify at a further discount and not be licensed for the AI features? (Mark said previously that we would miss out on the subscription benefits - never responded clearly when asked what if we don't want or care about missing out on those "benefits"

So if you want to highlight the confusion - start with the ROOT - the people making the decisions, but always "working on" the answers..... And that is not the Forum Users....

They expect us to trust them.... But what trust have they earned? Inability to answer questions, failed releases of "updates" to the website and as you know - little to no follow through on requests.... Maybe we'll have answers by Sept 5, then they can say that they gave users time (a whole day and yes partially sarcasm, partially frustration with this ongoing mess that they have created and are slow to clean up)

Taylor Blomquist

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308388#Comment_1308388

partially frustration with this ongoing mess that they have created and are slow to clean up)

Hi Frank,

I understand you are frustrated, and I'm sorry we haven't been able to provide answers as fast as you'd like. I'm happy to give clarity on these questions:

Still no response as to the warning that you have to be subscribed to purchase the new libraries, while there is a work around, will that be going away or is the warning an error? If the new libraries will only be for subscribers, those who may not want to subscribe may want to jump on the last chance library sales.

Are the L10 libraries and Legacy Libraries going away for good?

New libraries will be reserved for subscribers (just as previous libraries required feature sets). So, the warning you mentioned is intentional. While there are work arounds at the moment, we are working to eliminate those over time.
Legacy Libraries are sticking around.

Thank you for your patience

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308399#Comment_1308399

Are the L10 libraries and Legacy Libraries going away for good?

New libraries will be reserved for subscribers (just as previous libraries required feature sets). So, the warning you mentioned is intentional. While there are work arounds at the moment, we are working to eliminate those over time.

Legacy Libraries are sticking around.

Who knew, when this craziness started up months back. My L10 Orthodox Platinum would be my final. Who knew? I'm just amazed.

Yasmin Stephen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308399#Comment_1308399

New libraries will be reserved for subscribers (just as previous libraries required feature sets).

Are y'all really going to lock up new libraries behind a subscription? What does "previous libraries required feature sets" mean? Haven't we, since Logos 7 or so, been able to buy libraries separate from features? Am I misunderstanding or misremembering something here?

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308417#Comment_1308417

Who knew, when this craziness started up months back. My L10 Orthodox Platinum would be my final. Who knew? I'm just amazed.

I mean no disrespect. Certainly, everyone should make the decision that is best suited to their individual circumstances. But even $260 for two years of a max subscription at the discounted rate is likely less than what the full feature set of L11 would have cost us. Sure, if prices rise in the future, there may be reason to jump ship. But the current prices may even average out to be a discount over what we had been paying for features in the past. The Fallback License gives more value to this subscription than most other subscriptions on the market, being as you keep nothing in most cases once the subscription expires. My understanding is that they will enable us to pay for those two years up front to lock in the Fallback License, which in many ways mirrors the purchase of a full feature set if you immediately cancel auto renewal. The biggest difference from a traditional purchase in my view is that we won't be sure of which features we will be able to keep at the time of "purchase". I get that this may be frustrating. And perhaps this is the crucial point. Those who are very bothered by not knowing what they are purchasing vs those who will happily use the subscription and consider the Fallback license to be a pleasant bonus. Could you help me understand your thinking?

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308429#Comment_1308429

Haven't we, since Logos 7 or so, been able to buy libraries separate from features?

No, this is not possible. One cannot purchase a Logos 10 library independently from the features, unless, of course, one already owns the features. Legacy libraries are different. I'd like more information concerning what future legacy libraries will look like.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308399#Comment_1308399

New libraries will be reserved for subscribers (just as previous libraries required feature sets). So, the warning you mentioned is intentional. While there are work arounds at the moment, we are working to eliminate those over time.

Legacy Libraries are sticking around.

Taylor, thank you for this clarification. Could you please provide additional clarification on the legacy libraries? Specifically, will the 2024 libraries be available for purchase for ALL users, independently from features, once they become legacy libraries? If so, then newly released libraries will not forever be reserved for subscribers. Rather, in order to purchase the newest libraries, non-subscribers will simply have to wait until they are replaced and become legacy libraries. Is this understanding correct?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308433#Comment_1308433

Who knew, when this craziness started up months back. My L10 Orthodox Platinum would be my final. Who knew? I'm just amazed.

I mean no disrespect.

Aaron, I look up to you. Also Graham. I don't think you have a disrespectful bone in your body. Truly.

But I haven't bought features, to buy features, in years. I honestly can't remember one that I thought, oh wow, that's just the cat's meow. Now, I do have them all. They snuck onto my Verbum, when I bought packages. Very recently, like last week!

But I do buy books. I do love the joy of Logos books. Happy to throw $400 at a single resource too. It's just so crazy, as the company bobs and weaves, this year. They need to get both hands on the wheel.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308417#Comment_1308417

Are the L10 libraries and Legacy Libraries going away for good?

New libraries will be reserved for subscribers (just as previous libraries required feature sets). So, the warning you mentioned is intentional. While there are work arounds at the moment, we are working to eliminate those over time.

Legacy Libraries are sticking around.

Who knew, when this craziness started up months back. My L10 Orthodox Platinum would be my final. Who knew? I'm just amazed.

I have L10 Full feature set. I have no problem with paying subscription, but not the way it is being structured. You are not going to get me to pay subscription for a uncertain/unknown product that will be released over the next 2 years (at this point, I am not interested in AI/Cloud). So if subscription is required to purchase L11 libraries, just like DMB, I am done purchasing libraries too. And I have bought 56 libraries thus far across all denominations - some at Starter, Bronze,..., all the way to Portfolio.

As in the past, if L11 libraries become Legacy libraries without subscription features after 2 years, I will buy L!1 libraries then. Logos can wait on my $ for 2 years.

Taylor Blomquist

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308435#Comment_1308435

Specifically, will the 2024 libraries be available for purchase for ALL users, independently from features, once they become legacy libraries

Hi Aaron,

Regarding turning 2024 libraries into Legacy Libraries: we haven't planned out that far, nor have we discussed retiring the Legacy Library program. I expect that we will be incorporating L10 libraries, and suspect that future libraries will be included as we launch a new libraries in the future.

It probably goes without saying, but I feel the need to: the further into the future we go, the more subject to change things become. I wouldn't take this as gospel truth.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308448#Comment_1308448

Specifically, will the 2024 libraries be available for purchase for ALL users, independently from features, once they become legacy libraries
Hi Aaron,

Regarding turning 2024 libraries into Legacy Libraries: we haven't planned out that far, nor have we discussed retiring the Legacy Library program.

I will take a million dollar bet that you will not retire the current Legacy Library program. Moreover, the L11 libraries will join the Legacy libraries in 2 years time. How can I be confident? Well, if the Legacy libraries were not profitable, you wouldn't be offering these products. The fact that you offer them and the fact that till recently you offered only the prior libraries but then expanded the libraries to go all the back to L5 tells me that this is a super profitable product. Why would you not offer a super profitable product it in the future? Are you planning to bleed yourself to death? Of course, not! So why are you purposely trying to breed uncertainty.

My guess is that someone in top management has gotten into their brains that breeding uncertainty in the minds of consumers will make consumers purchase more today than wait for uncertainty to resolve. Please go read papers on how uncertainty affects consumer purchase behavior. Any marketing folks here who can shed light on this. From what little I know in finance, uncertainty cannot be good. For example, when fund managers expect the stock market to go up, they will put more money into stocks. That seems rational and intuitive. Now, here is how uncertainty affects the amount of money they will put in the stock market. If they expect the stock market to go up, but their confidence in their forecast is low, they will put less money in the stock market compared to when their confidence in their forecast is high. This result is also intuitive. I am extrapolating this result to consumer behavior to predict that consumers will close their wallets rather than open their wallets when there is uncertainty. That is, people will exercise their option to wait for uncertainty to resolve itself before committing more dollars.

So go ahead and breed uncertainty and dig your own grave.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308399#Comment_1308399

partially frustration with this ongoing mess that they have created and are slow to clean up)
Hi Frank,

I understand you are frustrated, and I'm sorry we haven't been able to provide answers as fast as you'd like. I'm happy to give clarity on these questions:
Still no response as to the warning that you have to be subscribed to purchase the new libraries, while there is a work around, will that be going away or is the warning an error? If the new libraries will only be for subscribers, those who may not want to subscribe may want to jump on the last chance library sales.

Are the L10 libraries and Legacy Libraries going away for good?

New libraries will be reserved for subscribers (just as previous libraries required feature sets). So, the warning you mentioned is intentional. While there are work arounds at the moment, we are working to eliminate those over time.

Legacy Libraries are sticking around.

Thank you for your patience

Taylor,

I do appreciate the answers - sadly they are not pro-customer - but I guess that is the trend with the current leadership at Logos.... We were promised we would not be forced into subscriptions - but now we will be locked out of new Libraries going forward....

The comparison to the old traditional structure is somewhat apples and oranges however, as the new marketing clearly removes features to keep them locked behind the subscription paywall... You also received features based on the level of package that you purchased - which were features that the customer was able to know what they were paying for in advance - not pay now and guess what you may have in the two years...

So the new Logos going forward.... We want you to subscribe to gain access to any new features, you will subscribe not knowing what you will be paying for in relation to the fallback license, because we don't know ourselves what that will be.... You will also need to subscribe if you want access to any new library that we offer.... We will allow you the privilege of browsing the old Legacy libraries, while we still offer them....

So Logos.... Tell me how you no longer want me to support or recommend your product without telling me that you don't want me to support or recommend your product....

I also wonder what the publishers would think of Logos locking out potential purchases of their offerings?

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308440#Comment_1308440

Aaron, I look up to you. Also Graham. I don't think you have a disrespectful bone in your body. Truly.

Wow. That comment from you is very humbling, and I wish it were true (so does my wife). Also, I'm quite sure Graham is in another league.

But I haven't bought features, to buy features, in years. I honestly can't remember one that I thought, oh wow, that's just the cat's meow. Now, I do have them all. They snuck onto my Verbum, when I bought packages. Very recently, like last week!

But I do buy books. I do love the joy of Logos books. Happy to throw $400 at a single resource too. It's just so crazy, as the company bobs and weaves, this year. They need to get both hands on the wheel.

Thank you for bringing clarity to your thoughts. That makes a lot of sense. To separate features as they have with the subscription makes them much less appealing for someone interested primarily in books. This has indeed been a strange time with Logos. Part of me respects their desire to learn from their customer base as they work towards a subscription model. However, this approach has led to a massive amount of confusion as users wait for answers. One user-centered benefit from this approach, I believe, is tied to the perks they have chosen to include with the subscription. These perks, e.g. purchase discount, end-of-year cash back, extra free book, Fallback License(!), I believe have been adjusted based on our feedback. Once all of the information is presented in a clear and straightforward manner, perhaps even book-loving users like yourself will be more inclined to jump onboard. Or perhaps not. Either way, it's a pleasure to engage with a community filled with intelligent and respectful Bible/book-loving individuals such as yourself.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308486#Comment_1308486

You will also need to subscribe if you want access to any new library that we offer.

As usual, you come with several legitimate concerns. However, there is another perspective that recognizes that some of these issues are not as outlandish as they may appear initially. Take the new library situation, for example. I actually see this situation as an improvement over the old model for those who do not want features. Under the old model, one had to pay a substantial sum to purchase features in order to purchase the accompanying library. Under the new model, one must only subscribe. Presumably, one could initiate a subscription in order to access the libraries and then cancel after all desired libraries have been purchased. This method would represent significant savings for the person with no desire to access features as compared to the old model.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308571#Comment_1308571

Under the old model, one had to pay a substantial sum to purchase features in order to purchase the accompanying library. Under the new model, one must only subscribe.

Please explain.

One always had the choice to purchase features with a Base Library (books). And features could always be purchased independently of a Library.
Are you assuming that the books of a subscription "library" cannot be purchased outside of a subscription? Many users have reported already owning all/most of the Early Access books, and I was able to purchase a Legacy Library for a substantial "subscription" commentary series for less than $50.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308654#Comment_1308654

Are you assuming that the books of a subscription "library" cannot be purchased outside of a subscription?

Hi Dave. I am stating that a subscription library cannot be purchased outside of a subscription, according to the clarification that Taylor offered in this thread. I am also stating that this is similar to the way Feature Libraries have been in the past. One could not purchase the most recent libraries without purchasing/owning the accompanying features. You are correct in stating that features could be purchased independently from libraries. But libraries could not be purchased independently from features. Finally, I am stating that under the subscription model, one could cancel the subscription after purchasing whichever libraries one wants and thus spend less money on features as compared to the old model, assuming that is what one wants to do.

Rick Erickson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308433#Comment_1308433

Who knew, when this craziness started up months back. My L10 Orthodox Platinum would be my final. Who knew? I'm just amazed.

I mean no disrespect. Certainly, everyone should make the decision that is best suited to their individual circumstances. But even $260 for two years of a max subscription at the discounted rate is likely less than what the full feature set of L11 would have cost us. Sure, if prices rise in the future, there may be reason to jump ship. But the current prices may even average out to be a discount over what we had been paying for features in the past. The Fallback License gives more value to this subscription than most other subscriptions on the market, being as you keep nothing in most cases once the subscription expires. My understanding is that they will enable us to pay for those two years up front to lock in the Fallback License, which in many ways mirrors the purchase of a full feature set if you immediately cancel auto renewal. The biggest difference from a traditional purchase in my view is that we won't be sure of which features we will be able to keep at the time of "purchase". I get that this may be frustrating. And perhaps this is the crucial point. Those who are very bothered by not knowing what they are purchasing vs those who will happily use the subscription and consider the Fallback license to be a pleasant bonus. Could you help me understand your thinking?

^^ This! ^^

Very well stated. I'm really trying to understand all the animosity around the subscription. I'll admit I don't have a full grasp of everything going on with it (and it seems from these threads that no one does) but my goodness. If you previously invested in a Gold or above package, then for around $10 a month you are getting a consistent flow of new features, access to additional books (albeit 'borrowing' them), and a 'Fallback License' to lock-in features if you no longer wish to subscribe (which from my knowledge few to no one else offers). I have L10 (full feature set) and I would have very likely bought L11 when it came out. I'm guessing the cost would have been more than what I'll be paying for the subscription over two years. I don't know - maybe it's the financial position I'm in that it doesn't hit me as hard as some - I'll respect that. I spend $10 (or more) a WEEK on coffee. If we (at least most of us) are honest, our TV streaming services cost considerably more than this every month. The cell phone bill in my house rivals a used car payment. If push came to shove I would, without hesitation, drop a TV streaming service over losing access to high-quality Bible software that greatly helps me grow in the Word. And the best thing is I wouldn't have to - because I would still 'own' the software and features I previously paid for. My Microsoft and Adobe subscriptions don't offer this.

Again, I know some live paycheck to paycheck and your perspective/experience may be very different - respect! But, for most of us, I'm guessing we spend a good chunk of change on silly stuff every month - and don't even hesitate.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308571#Comment_1308571

You will also need to subscribe if you want access to any new library that we offer.

As usual, you come with several legitimate concerns. However, there is another perspective that recognizes that some of these issues are not as outlandish as they may appear initially. Take the new library situation, for example. I actually see this situation as an improvement over the old model for those who do not want features. Under the old model, one had to pay a substantial sum to purchase features in order to purchase the accompanying library. Under the new model, one must only subscribe. Presumably, one could initiate a subscription in order to access the libraries and then cancel after all desired libraries have been purchased. This method would represent significant savings for the person with no desire to access features as compared to the old model.

That is one view - however, the "significant savings" you mention - I personally see less value in the new libraries that contain no features, in comparison to the L10 and Legacy Library offerings at this time (Those include no features for me as well. (I own the FFS))

Also it is the point that this whole time we have been told that we would not have to subscribe to purchase resources, yet here we are with a declaration from Logos that only subscribers can purchase new libraries - and sorry I should not be forced to subscribe for a month to buy books....

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308663#Comment_1308663

Who knew, when this craziness started up months back. My L10 Orthodox Platinum would be my final. Who knew? I'm just amazed.

I mean no disrespect. Certainly, everyone should make the decision that is best suited to their individual circumstances. But even $260 for two years of a max subscription at the discounted rate is likely less than what the full feature set of L11 would have cost us. Sure, if prices rise in the future, there may be reason to jump ship. But the current prices may even average out to be a discount over what we had been paying for features in the past. The Fallback License gives more value to this subscription than most other subscriptions on the market, being as you keep nothing in most cases once the subscription expires. My understanding is that they will enable us to pay for those two years up front to lock in the Fallback License, which in many ways mirrors the purchase of a full feature set if you immediately cancel auto renewal. The biggest difference from a traditional purchase in my view is that we won't be sure of which features we will be able to keep at the time of "purchase". I get that this may be frustrating. And perhaps this is the crucial point. Those who are very bothered by not knowing what they are purchasing vs those who will happily use the subscription and consider the Fallback license to be a pleasant bonus. Could you help me understand your thinking?

^^ This! ^^

Very well stated. I'm really trying to understand all the animosity around the subscription. I'll admit I don't have a full grasp of everything going on with it (and it seems from these threads that no one does) but my goodness. If you previously invested in a Gold or above package, then for around $10 a month you are getting a consistent flow of new features, access to additional books (albeit 'borrowing' them), and a 'Fallback License' to lock-in features if you no longer wish to subscribe (which from my knowledge few to no one else offers). I have L10 (full feature set) and I would have very likely bought L11 when it came out. I'm guessing the cost would have been more than what I'll be paying for the subscription over two years. I don't know - maybe it's the financial position I'm in that it doesn't hit me as hard as some - I'll respect that. I spend $10 (or more) a WEEK on coffee. If we (at least most of us) are honest, our TV streaming services cost considerably more than this every month. The cell phone bill in my house rivals a used car payment. If push came to shove I would, without hesitation, drop a TV streaming service over losing access to high-quality Bible software that greatly helps me grow in the Word. And the best thing is I wouldn't have to - because I would still 'own' the software and features I previously paid for. My Microsoft and Adobe subscriptions don't offer this.

Again, I know some live paycheck to paycheck and your perspective/experience may be very different - respect! But, for most of us, I'm guessing we spend a good chunk of change on silly stuff every month - and don't even hesitate.

And because you do NOT know the finances, lifestyles or needs of other customers and their families - maybe your view of "silly stuff" is not silly to others.....

In relation to Microsoft - they are NOT subscription only, I can own my product - I don't use Adobe, but know that they just ended perpetual licensing last month - we'll se how long that lasts....

I'm also not aware of either being digital book providers and telling customers that only subscribers can purchase certain books.... Neither of those companies ever committed to their customers the promises that we were given from Logos....

You mention more than once getting to keep the features with the fallback license - which is a little broad, as users will only keep non cloud and non AI features, of which we are still waiting for a list from Mark and Mark has also publicly stated he is not sure what features will be coming over two years.... So you could get nothing useful in the fallback license to "keep" - instant light/dark is not worth the cost to many users and we are told that we also get perks and books - what perks? What books? (not books that we can keep based on what has been stated thus far and for some with large libraries there may be few books that are not already owned....

So what you call animosity.... It is users pushing back against contradictions in public statements and what we see as a huge stride away from the company that we supported and committed to for decades.... Also, we have not had a simple question answered in relation to those of us who have no interest in the AI features or temporary books - what is silly is to tell customers that you can't just buy the fallback features and own them, but tell them they have to subscribe to do so and will miss out on all the stuff they already said they have no interest in and just want to own the features... If one can pay for two years of subscription and "own" certain features, why not allow one to pay for the features alone and not waste time downloading books they don't want or features they aren't interested in....Either way the users winds up with the fallback features... One way keeps the user content as a customer - the other may push the customer away....

You also need to acknowledge that the "animosity" is the only reason a fallback license even exists - you're welcome!

Matt Hamrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308686#Comment_1308686

We keep complaining about Mark not knowing what New Features over the next two years but that's like asking a soldier where he is going to deploy over the next two years and that's depends on a whole lot of matters. Mark doesn't know what the New features will be because they are not created yet so give him a break.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308663#Comment_1308663

But, for most of us, I'm guessing we spend a good chunk of change on silly stuff every month - and don't even hesitate.

Rick, you're shooting at paper tigers. Understandable for a Gator (Seminole here). Smiling. My newspaper subscriptions are 5x the proposed Logos one. My weather subscriptions, another 4x in total. Price isn't at least, my issue ... value is. In the last 6 years, I haven't seen good work at Faithlife. At lot of tagging, basically. 'Factbook'. Hopefully pastors like the sermon tools.

Now, books. Books, I love. But that's becoming a problem, too. All the Logos talent in OL, is sort of dribbling away. My guess, the Christian market. Same issue at Accordance.

But I'm happy for others to fund the company. Subscribe away.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308685#Comment_1308685

I personally see less value in the new libraries that contain no features, in comparison to the L10 and Legacy Library offerings at this tim

I completely agree. I'm not a huge fan of the preview I've seen of the new libraries. I hope the 2024 libraries more closely resemble the L10 and legacy libraries when they officially launch.

Also it is the point that this whole time we have been told that we would not have to subscribe to purchase resources, yet here we are with a declaration from Logos that only subscribers can purchase new libraries - and sorry I should not be forced to subscribe for a month to buy books

I understand your perspective, but I see this issue differently. No one will be forced to subscribe to buy books. There is only one product (or set of products) containing books that is tied to features, and this is the same product that has been tied to features in the past.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308695#Comment_1308695

We keep complaining about Mark not knowing what New Features over the next two years but that's like asking a soldier where he is going to deploy over the next two years and that's depends on a whole lot of matters. Mark doesn't know what the New features will be because they are not created yet so give him a break.

I agree. And I'll add... from what I've seen Mark has been one that has tried to do good for the customers. I guess the old saying is true.. "Satin don't work on you unless you start doing good!"

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK MARK!!! THANKS!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308706#Comment_1308706

I guess the old saying is true.. "Satin don't work on you unless you start doing good!"

Satanic critics of Mark, right, xnman?!

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308706#Comment_1308706

from what I've seen Mark has been one that has tried to do good for the customers.

So true.

I guess the old saying is true.. "Satin don't work on you unless you start doing good!"

Wait, what? No, nevermind... please don't explain. I don't think any amount of explaining could much improve a statement like this.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308448#Comment_1308448

I got 5 cool resources for $11 and change! That included the Branch Exposition Commentary Vol 1 Which by itself costs $45 and change!

DAL

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308703#Comment_1308703

I personally see less value in the new libraries that contain no features, in comparison to the L10 and Legacy Library offerings at this tim

I completely agree. I'm not a huge fan of the preview I've seen of the new libraries. I hope the 2024 libraries more closely resemble the L10 and legacy libraries when they officially launch.

Also it is the point that this whole time we have been told that we would not have to subscribe to purchase resources, yet here we are with a declaration from Logos that only subscribers can purchase new libraries - and sorry I should not be forced to subscribe for a month to buy books

I understand your perspective, but I see this issue differently. No one will be forced to subscribe to buy books. There is only one product (or set of products) containing books that is tied to features, and this is the same product that has been tied to features in the past.

I understand your view on the libraries and don't fully disagree - the variable here is that previously we owned the features and knew what they were before purchase - so limiting new libraries to only subscribers is not as comparable, since we have no idea what we get or get to keep just for the ability to buy a library - if we were even interested in doing so....

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308706#Comment_1308706

We keep complaining about Mark not knowing what New Features over the next two years but that's like asking a soldier where he is going to deploy over the next two years and that's depends on a whole lot of matters. Mark doesn't know what the New features will be because they are not created yet so give him a break.

I agree. And I'll add... from what I've seen Mark has been one that has tried to do good for the customers. I guess the old saying is true.. "Satin don't work on you unless you start doing good!"

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK MARK!!! THANKS!

So are you insinuating that I am Satin like the sheets or like Satan because I am challenging what I view as bad options as a customer???

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308710#Comment_1308710

from what I've seen Mark has been one that has tried to do good for the customers.

So true.

I guess the old saying is true.. "Satin don't work on you unless you start doing good!"

Wait, what? No, nevermind... please don't explain. I don't think any amount of explaining could much improve a statement like this.

My thoughts exactly.... If it is saying what it sounds like it is saying, in spite of the spelling error - just another example of someone not honoring the Forum Guidelines of communicating as you would face to face....

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308695#Comment_1308695

We keep complaining about Mark not knowing what New Features over the next two years but that's like asking a soldier where he is going to deploy over the next two years and that's depends on a whole lot of matters. Mark doesn't know what the New features will be because they are not created yet so give him a break.

Said soldier isn't the one selling me a product, but self admittedly doesn't know what said product is - also if anyone at Logos "wants a break" that should have been considered before all the drastic changes to the business model, as well as failed "upgrades" to website searches and numerous vague or unanswered questions.....

Also in relation to Mark directly..... I have been waiting since the original announcement and all the questions that started arising then for some form of communication - I submitted multiple requests to have him contact me at his convenience and how many months later is it - with no contact....

I have spoken to two members of the staff that did their best to address my questions but there were numerous I can't speak for Mark or I don't know what Mark meant type statements - which I never expected them to read his mind....

I am used to being responded to within a timely fashion by members of Senior Management at Logos through the years, if there were any questions - a couple times without my request, but wanted to contact me due to concerns posted in the forums....

So some of you can "trust" Mark all you like, he has not earned that with me personally as did Bob, Dan, Phil and Bradley through the years... And I have tried numerous times to allow it to happen....

You may also feel this whole thing has been well run, however there ARE those of us who feel it has been a poorly devised process with little to no solid customer support in general.... Not very proactive and prepared, very reactive and unprepared for such a major move with what is a limited customer base in comparison to the favorite comparisons thrown out there like Microsoft.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308734#Comment_1308734

The firm has a right to change its business model. On the flip side, the customers have a right not to give new business as a result of the change in the business model. If the new business model is not as profitable as top management had forecast, they will be forced to tweak the business model; maybe, even go back to the old business model. This is the beauty of capitalism and why capitalism works.

If the new business model works as per their forecast, then people who don't like it have no choice but to suck it up. That's life. No amount of venting your frustration is going to make them change.

So everyone can chill like DMB - buy books that you like and be happy with the Feature set that you already have. We have to learn to be content as Paul says!

Rick Erickson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308698#Comment_1308698

But, for most of us, I'm guessing we spend a good chunk of change on silly stuff every month - and don't even hesitate.

Rick, you're shooting at paper tigers. Understandable for a Gator (Seminole here). Smiling. My newspaper subscriptions are 5x the proposed Logos one. My weather subscriptions, another 4x in total. Price isn't at least, my issue ... value is. In the last 6 years, I haven't seen good work at Faithlife. At lot of tagging, basically. 'Factbook'. Hopefully pastors like the sermon tools.

Now, books. Books, I love. But that's becoming a problem, too. All the Logos talent in OL, is sort of dribbling away. My guess, the Christian market. Same issue at Accordance.

But I'm happy for others to fund the company. Subscribe away.

Well, in terms of 'value' I would expect that comment coming from a Seminole. JK of course. It's going to be a fun year for the big Florida three. I guess perceived value lies with each individual. The performance and search capabilities enhancements in L10 alone were a worthy value upgrade - IMO.

Sincere question (not sparring at all - even with a Seminole): If there was no subscription and L11 was coming in October and it cost $250 to upgrade would you do it? Or are you one that waits to see what new features are given and then makes a decision? When I invest time and money into software I will almost always upgrade - unless there are significant red flags telling me otherwise. In the case of Logos it was certainly in my plan to hop to L11. I see this subscription as a more manageable way to getting there - for those that can't take the large $ hit at once. Now, I don't know all the 'features' I'll be paying for in the next two years - but honestly, every feature I paid for in L10 wasn't a home run for me but I chose to pay for it anyways. Now, two years from now I will have to reevaluate the 'value' provided over that time and make a decision. But, I don't see this as any different than going from L10 to L11. And, my Logos install won't turn into a pumpkin if I chose to cut ties. Maybe it's just my naïveté.

In contrast, my Adobe subscription has me trapped. If I stop paying, my software stops working. I have a considerable investment in workflow/edits/metadata, etc. into Adobe Lightroom - photography software. I MUST pay to play. Again, I'm trapped.

Subscription is the least of my concerns. The future of Logos (the company and software) in general is more of a concern. As you stated - the talent 'is sort of dribbling away' - I have zero context for that statement (I don't have the history you do). Will tomorrow's 'Christian Market' make a company like Logos sustainable for years to come? I do think the subscription model allows them to better forecast their future based on a known and hopefully consistent monthly revenue. I'm more concerned about my significant book investment than I am having to pay a subscription. If Logos (the company) disappears I will have the bits to run the software BUT for how long. Technology has a way of making everything a few years old obsolete.

Go Gators!

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308720#Comment_1308720

I got 5 cool resources for $11 and change! That included the Branch Exposition Commentary Vol 1 Which by itself costs $45 and change!

DAL

Same. Quick look at it and I'm not quite sure how useful it'll be yet but I think mine was $12ish

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308685#Comment_1308685

Also it is the point that this whole time we have been told that we would not have to subscribe to purchase resources, yet here we are with a declaration from Logos that only subscribers can purchase new libraries - and sorry I should not be forced to subscribe for a month to buy books....

I was reminded of the rather common word "tergiversate" or in FL's case "tergiversator" as regards the behaviors you mention. The latin origen seems appropo too.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308743#Comment_1308743

Sincere question (not sparring at all - even with a Seminole): If there was no subscription and L11 was coming in October and it cost $250 to upgrade would you do it? Or are you one that waits to see what new features are given and then makes a decision?

Well, let's recognize the important issues in the immediate future ... good playing, for your Gators!

In answer to the above, no I wouldn't update. I used to, when they were building really great tools. I think L7 was their final year, Sort of like the '60s and great cars.

But that's me. My larger complaints over the years, has been the need for simplification and intuitiveness. Students struggling in Bible college. And even easing the spirituality of basic Bible study. So, the more recent features (and yes, Mark), are aimed at that ... good. But then, now, charge extra for it. No thank you. Pay a little extra for my great books, yes!

Matt Hamrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308734#Comment_1308734

We keep complaining about Mark not knowing what New Features over the next two years but that's like asking a soldier where he is going to deploy over the next two years and that's depends on a whole lot of matters. Mark doesn't know what the New features will be because they are not created yet so give him a break.

Said soldier isn't the one selling me a product, but self admittedly doesn't know what said product is - also if anyone at Logos "wants a break" that should have been considered before all the drastic changes to the business model, as well as failed "upgrades" to website searches and numerous vague or unanswered questions.....

Also in relation to Mark directly..... I have been waiting since the original announcement and all the questions that started arising then for some form of communication - I submitted multiple requests to have him contact me at his convenience and how many months later is it - with no contact....

I have spoken to two members of the staff that did their best to address my questions but there were numerous I can't speak for Mark or I don't know what Mark meant type statements - which I never expected them to read his mind....

I am used to being responded to within a timely fashion by members of Senior Management at Logos through the years, if there were any questions - a couple times without my request, but wanted to contact me due to concerns posted in the forums....

So some of you can "trust" Mark all you like, he has not earned that with me personally as did Bob, Dan, Phil and Bradley through the years... And I have tried numerous times to allow it to happen....

You may also feel this whole thing has been well run, however there ARE those of us who feel it has been a poorly devised process with little to no solid customer support in general.... Not very proactive and prepared, very reactive and unprepared for such a major move with what is a limited customer base in comparison to the favorite comparisons thrown out there like Microsoft.

I am pretty sure going to this new model nobody at Logos knows the answers to the questions we are asking. You bring up Bob and the old gang and that was all during the old model that we are leaving. Apples and oranges. And for the record I have been more focal and anti subscription than you but it falls on deaf ears. Nobody can answer our questions because our questions is just straw. Back to my analogy with the soldier nobody knows when he will deploy. The world is a dangerous place and world events dictates the soldiers deploying. We are asking about features that are not created yet and no matter how much we scream nobody can answer it.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308657#Comment_1308657

Thanks for your answers, Aaron.

I am stating that a subscription library cannot be purchased outside of a subscription, according to the clarification that Taylor offered in this thread.

I see that now.

I am also stating that this is similar to the way Feature Libraries have been in the past. One could not purchase the most recent libraries without purchasing/owning the accompanying features.

I had to log out to see what a new user is being offered now, but I do remember Features being a choice when purchasing a Library.

Finally, I am stating that under the subscription model, one could cancel the subscription after purchasing whichever libraries one wants and thus spend less money on features as compared to the old model, assuming that is what one wants to do.

I doubt I would be desperate enough to purchase a "subscription Library" with the usual bloat, and I think there would be a minimum period of subscribing before you could purchase "your library" at a worthwhile discount. I buy whatever collection(s) I really need at a discount, or when they become Legacy (but how do you can fix a baseline in a subscription model?). I doubt that these libraries would be tied to features because of the 2 year "keep" perk.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308808#Comment_1308808

Thanks for your reply, Dave. I do not remember the option of buying the most recent library without features, but you have been around longer than I have.

I have not heard anything about a minimum time period of subscribing. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out, but I can't imagine they would make subscribers wait to purchase an accompanying library. That would seem counterintuitive, as a forced delay would take a heavy toll on their sales numbers.

When I said the newest libraries will be tied to features I was using that language very loosely, more precisely meaning they will be locked behind a subscription paywall. If I'm understanding you correctly, I think we're on the same page here. I always appreciate your contributions and clarifications.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308798#Comment_1308798

I am pretty sure going to this new model nobody at Logos knows the answers to the questions we are asking.

And I stand by my opinion that telling customers that we don't know what is coming or what we are working on or what qualifies for Fallback licensing - well that is not a sign of solid planning IMHO. I don't care what the model is, not having the ability to answer simple questions like what am I paying for, is poor customer service.

You bring up Bob and the old gang and that was all during the old model that we are leaving. Apples and oranges.

Exactly my point - with the "old gang" there was more interaction directly with the customer base, especially if long time customers were frustrated or concerned. Now.... Just vague responses and at times word play.... Considering there have been issues under the old gang as well, at least they took the time and energy to respond as clear as possible.

And for the record I have been more focal and anti subscription than you but it falls on deaf ears. Nobody can answer our questions because our questions is just straw.

Have at it if you feel you're the most vocal - I've not been fighting this fight for titles or attention - if claiming that title makes you feel good - enjoy! I will make it clear that if our questions are only straw - that is only the way some at Logos view them - the many questions that I and others have been asking are valid.

Back to my analogy with the soldier nobody knows when he will deploy. The world is a dangerous place and world events dictates the soldiers deploying. We are asking about features that are not created yet and no matter how much we scream nobody can answer it.

And again, said soldier is not asking me to pay for a product not knowing what they are giving me - the fluid nature of deployment is definitely there, however there is also the intelligence community within and outside the military that is constantly working to have as much detail available as possible - that is what is missing from the Logos side of this analogy - the Logos soldier(s) are going in completely blind without the slightest intelligence to guide them....

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1308834#Comment_1308834

And I stand by my opinion that telling customers that we don't know what is coming or what we are working on or what qualifies for Fallback licensing - well that is not a sign of solid planning IMHO. I don't care what the model is, not having the ability to answer simple questions like what am I paying for, is poor customer service.

We should be informed when new features are introduced, so the current uncertainty is not good for decision making. New users will have that (updated) information in the Fall, but nobody should expect to know what precisely is coming over the next two years. Logos have never committed to timeframes for bug fixes, which I find annoying, but plans for new/enhanced features may not come to fruition for a number of reasons e.g. a more dynamic system of Prioritization was discussed several years ago. Good intentions, but I think it failed after a risk assessment (it is still the model introduced with Logos 4).

We might get to know what is coming with the next couple of releases (c. 7-14 weeks), but that is usually because users have mentioned something related to it in the forums! And we already know that Guides are being incorporated into Factbook rather than getting a facelift.