predicate position
I am trying to understand why these Greek words ὅδε, οὗτος, and ἐκεῖνος regularly take the predicate position. I found this inductive knowledge from doing a Greek word study of the three words. I also tried searching in Logos with an all search but I did not come up with much background on this matter. Can someone guide me to a section in any of the Greek grammars that decode the basis for understanding this topic and possibly rule in Koine Greek studies? I read the following but could not find any useful sections.
Robertson, A. T.. A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research. United Kingdom: Hodder & Stoughton, 1914.
Dobson, John H. Learn New Testament Greek. Grand Rapids: Baker Publishing Group, 2005.
Vine, W. E. Learn New Testament Greek. Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1997.
Strauss, Mark L.. The Biblical Greek Companion for Bible Software Users: Grammatical Terms Explained for Exegesis. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2016.
Mounce, William D.. Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2009.
Croy, N. Clayton. A Primer of Biblical Greek Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2007.
Comments
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I think I might have hit a small rock in a landmine. Smyth addresses that in section 1171 of his Greek grammar textbook here. He does not really explain a logical reason, he just states the rule. Has there been any sort of consensus on the topic?
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Christian Alexander said:
regularly take the predicate position.
Are you treating Greek as configurational or non-configurational when you make this statement?
Christian Alexander said:He does not really explain a logical reason, he just states the rule.
The "logical" reason lies in historical linguistics and the rules of language change that it follows in a particular instance and time OR the "logical reason" lies in the generative grammar rules of transformation. You are unlikely to find them in the static/"prescriptive" grammars written for pedagogical purposes. What did you find in the grammatical relationships section of a Bible Word Study?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Are you treating Greek as configurational or non-configurational when you make this statement?
This is very hard to discern. I want to say the Greek in which the New Testament has been written in. Koine Greek was widely used among all the classes of the empire because the conquests of Alexander the Great spread Greek throughout the Mediterranean.
MJ. Smith said:You are unlikely to find them in the static/"prescriptive" grammars written for pedagogical purposes
What Greek Grammars and or reference works do you suggest?
MJ. Smith said:What did you find in the grammatical relationships section of a Bible Word Study?
I did not find anything under this section but I do not know how to analyze and contextualize it.
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Christian Alexander said:MJ. Smith said:
Are you treating Greek as configurational or non-configurational when you make this statement?
This is very hard to discern.
No, it isn't unless you are unable to follow your own thinking. Are you keeping your thinking consistent with regards to linguistic theory or are you cherry-picking cool terms from incompatible analyses?
Christian Alexander said:What Greek Grammars and or reference works do you suggest?
I don't. I don't know Greek, I know some PIE,
Christian Alexander said:I did not find anything under this section but I do not know how to analyze and contextualize it.
Show me a screen shot of what your results are ... and are you saying you don't know how to analyze and contextualize Greek sentences or parts thereof? I don't buy that helpless act.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I am trying to be as consistent as possible I did not do a word study in Logos. I did a word study using TDNT, EDNT and LSJ.
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Christian Alexander said:
I did not do a word study in Logos.
Then how could you tell me that the Bible Word Study Guide section didn't contain useful information?
Christian Alexander said:I am trying to be as consistent as possible
I would often take this to mean that you are using terms and concepts that you don't really understand. From what I have seen from you, that may not be what is going on but there is still some sort of break in the meaning within the question. It's like asking like asking how to use Creole seasoning in traditional New England chowder.
Let's start again:
Christian Alexander said:I am trying to understand why these Greek words ὅδε, οὗτος, and ἐκεῖνος regularly take the predicate position.
Now ask:
- Does "predicate position" have meaning only in languages that can be described as SVO, VSO, or SOV?
- Can Koine Greek be described in that manner? [the answer is no]
- What does position mean in a configurational language? You'll think in terms of grammar and syntax.
- What does position mean in a non-configurational language? You'll think in terms of pragmatics and discourse.
- Does the term "predicate position" apply to a configurational language or a non-configurational language? In this case, assume it is not both.
- Therefore, what do I mean when I say "why these Greek words ὅδε, οὗτος, and ἐκεῖνος regularly take the predicate position."?
- What grammatical relationships does Logos use in my examples of predicate position? (Use the Grammatical relationships portion of the Bible Word Study tool.)
- What syntactic relationships does Logos use in my examples of predicate position? (Use you Clause Visualization books in Logos.)
- What alternatives to the term "predicate position" does Logos offer?
- Are those alternatives compatible with my assumption Greek is a non-configurational language?
Now, do you see why I asked it you were cherry-picking from incompatible theories?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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1. No, languages with SVO (Subject-Verb-Object), VSO (Verb-Subject-Object), or SOV (Subject-Object-Verb) word orders are not the only ones in which the idea of "predicate position" exists. The term "predicate position" describes where the predicate appears in a sentence. Any language can use this idea, independent of its syntactic structure. The "predicate position" still refers to the verb's or verb phrase's placement in relation to other sentence elements in languages with different typological features, such as those with free word order, ergative-absolutive alignment, or languages where word order is more flexible or determined by other factors (like focus or topic). The concept of a predicate and its relationship to subjects and objects is applicable to languages with less strict syntactic order as well, even if it may be stated differently.
2 You are correct
3. "Position" in a configurational language describes how crucial it is for words to be arranged in a sentence in order to communicate grammatical relationships. Word order plays a major importance in configurational languages when expressing syntactic structures like verb roles, subjects, and objects. The grammatical function of a word is determined by its placement inside a phrase. Subject, verb, and object usually have set locations in a phrase in a highly configurational language (e.g., Subject-Verb-Object or SVO order in English). Rearranging these components can change the sentence's meaning or make it grammatically incorrect.
4. Word order is usually more variable in non-configurational languages than in configurational languages; this implies that other factors, such inflection or case markings, are frequently used to identify a word's grammatical function rather than just where it is in a sentence. Word placement and order, however, can nevertheless have important pragmatic and discourse-related implications in non-configurational languages: Word order is frequently employed in non-configurational languages to denote the topic and focus of a sentence, or new or highlighted information, in terms of the sentence's information structure. Word placement can be used to draw attention to particular details or establish contrast. The speaker can highlight a word by positioning it in an odd or noticeable way. Word choice can ensure that a speech remains coherent
5. A configurational language is often referred to as having a "predicate position". In Biblical Greek, the predicate noun or adjective might have a specific placement in relation to the subject when dealing with sentences that use a form of the verb "to be" (εἰμί, "I am"). The article normally comes before the noun or adjective when the predicate is in the attributive position, indicating that it is changing the subject. Usually appearing without the article, a noun or adjective in the predicate position comes after the verb "to be." Although word order in Biblical Greek can be somewhat flexible, the most typical or default arrangement is Subject-Verb-Object (SVO).
I am still working through the last 5 questions.
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Whether or not I agree with your answers is irrelevant. It is not my job to teach you linguistics; it is your job to know it and to use it in a consistent manner. My question list is a list of questions that you should think to ask yourself before, not after, posting a question. They can be summarized as "Is this a well-formed question?" I should probably have included a preliminary question - is configurational-nonconfigurational a dichotomy or a continuum? It is probably about time to assess what progress you have made and whether the progress justifies the time I have spent. What do you think are areas in which you have improved?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I feel like I have improved a bit. I never really knew much about Linguistics. I took a summer session and had 4 courses over 17 weeks. I took Intro to Linguistics, Intro to Grammar and Analysis of Texts, Sematics and Phonology and Morphology. I have tried reading on these topics but they are so broad. My critical thinking skills have grown as a result of deliberate exercise and repeated practice challenging presumptions, dissecting arguments, and weighing the available data. I now make sure to approach studies with an open mind and skepticism, making sure to weigh all of the available information before drawing any conclusions. With the use of this ability, I've been able to eliminate prejudices, recognize underlying presumptions, and make better research-based decisions. In particular, interpretation has changed the way I understand texts and derive meaning from them. My ability to comprehend the subtleties of intricate works has improved as a result of refining this expertise. I can more effectively evaluate different perspectives within the field, making well-informed judgments that contribute to a more nuanced understanding of the Holy Scriptures. I was taught to ask the wrong questions. As a result, I make ill-formed and horribly reasoned questions and then try to cherry pick info points. However, I do forget to ask myself the necessary questions like you posted. That is my next plan: ask better questions before I go on to ask more nuanced research queries.
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