A new type of pre-pub - it isn't in print yet!
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Mark A. Smith said:
(BTW: I have no problem with digital-only, just Logos-only.)
If Logos is footing the entire bill to bring it to fruition, why should they share the bounty at harvest? The other software companies started this "exclusive rights" thing. Maybe Logos is assembling some bargaining chips to trade a few "exclusives" back and forth, (- say, EEC for John Philips Commentaries & Complete Biblical Library?)Mark A. Smith said:One issue that was raised by a commenter was that this electronic version would seem to be limited to Logos-only format, as it seems it will be.
<edit note: Alex was asking Todd why individual volumes should be made available>Alex Scott said:OK - I guess I'm a bit confused here. Are you suggesting that Logos should produce all the volumes and take a financial loss on those that don't sell, or should they just not produce them all so that those of us that might want all the volumes can do without just to satisfy the desires of those that want more for less?
Alex, I did not read Todd's post that way at all. But I could see how you'd take issue with that idea. I would too.
I don't think you can purchase each volume of NICNT individually, can you? And at what price would you? But I said earlier, it appears Logos is committed to the whole EEC project. They don't want to add a few individual volumes, hodge-podge, here and there. So they offer, beg & coax us to get with the program and reward those who do. Nobody is forcing is to buy it.Todd Phillips said:I was just asking why individual volumes are never going to be sold (according to to the website). I can buy individual NICNT volumes in print--can't Logos do the same in digital?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I don't think you can purchase each volume of NICNT individually, can you? And at what price would you?
Since you asked, here are a couple I'd buy if I still bought paper commentaries:
http://www.amazon.com/Epistle-Romans-International-Commentary-Testament/dp/0802823173
http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Philippians-International-Commentary-Testament/dp/0802825117
Matthew C Jones said:Nobody is forcing is to buy it.
Nope. I'm just pointing out that they will just get my money if they offer the individual volumes eventually.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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This thread has now gone to seven pages and I have not read them all. Hopefully I'm not duplicating what someone else has already pointed out but there is a blog post by John Dyer over at Don't Eat the Fruit that touches on this new series and what it might portend for the future of research and digital books.
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Mark Denning said:
This thread has now gone to seven pages and I have not read them all. Hopefully I'm not duplicating what someone else has already pointed out but there is a blog post by John Dyer over at Don't Eat the Fruit that touches on this new series and what it might portend for the future of research and digital books.
Yep, there's some discussion of it on the previous page (6), if you're interested in reading it.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:
Since you asked, here are a couple I'd buy if I still bought paper commentaries:
I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about individual digital volumes of NICNT.
Todd Phillips said:Nope. I'm just pointing out that they will just get my money if they offer the individual volumes eventually.
Another analogy (sorry MJ) : Sometimes I need a socket wrench. I frequently lose sockets when my 2 year old helps me..... After enough of them go missing I need to decide whether it is better to buy a new set or replace the missing sockets individually. I will never need extra sockets sized 3/32 but I save money buying the whole set.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Another analogy (sorry MJ) :
Hey, this one works ... but you haven't given your 2-year-old their own set yet?[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
Another analogy (sorry MJ) : Sometimes I need a socket wrench. I frequently lose sockets when my 2 year old helps me..... After enough of them go missing I need to decide whether it is better to buy a new set or replace the missing sockets individually. I will never need extra sockets sized 3/32 but I save money buying the whole set.
Yes, but the analogy breaks in many ways: one socket set is like another so there's no mystery as to what you'd get, plus the socket set costs less than $100, and you'd get the whole set at once--not a few a year for the next decade, and if you've already got one socket set, you probably wouldn't buy a second set to compare how they work (assuming the set already contained both metric and SAE sockets) without being convinced that the second set had distinct advantages.
I already own many socket sets in Logos.[:D]
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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After consideration … I'm in. [:)]
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8
iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1
iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1
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Gotcha Todd!
Todd Phillips said:I already own many socket sets in Logos.
WHY do you own more than one set? Whatever motivated you to get multiple sets already, should also work towards selling you on the EEC.
(Please come on board. I need to tell my wife "Everybody else is buying it.")
I
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
But sweetheart, everyone else is getting it, there's Bob, and Jack, you remember Jack, and of course there's Matthew and Dan, and ... oh the list is too long...I just gotta get it, and all the cool Pastors are getting it too... now you don't want me to be uncool do you ? Please, I'll remember our anniversary till at least 2019 without your prompting..... tell you what when each new volume ships I'll even buy you flowers and a box of chocolates and we can spend sometime together reading the new volume......
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I'm in - but I haven't told my wife yet. I figure I have until April to convince her.
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Ronald Quick said:
I'm in - but I haven't told my wife yet. I figure I have until April to convince her.
If you put it on your credit card, you have until the statement comes - probably May, maybe even June. [;)]
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Well, I just convinced myself to pre-order, even though now my pre-pub orders total more than I paid for Logos Platinum, I think. [:)
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Eric Weiss said:
now my pre-pub orders total more than I paid for Logos Platinum,
Congratulations. You are now an official Logosaholic! [:D]
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I sent a long email to Logos about this proposal. Several things come to mind, much of which has already been written. But let me enter the fray
Logos is an amateur at publishing, at least commentary publishing . . . yes, they have done a lot of cranking stuff out that has been written and published by others but taking stuff through the initial editorial process not so much. What do they know about this? They will scream loudly that they are hardly amateurs, but take Dan's last comment as a case in point. He hopes that by showing their seriousness, it will get the writers to speed up . . . Like Eerdmans couldn't get the NIC contributers and T& T Clark couldn't get the ICC guys and Word couldn't get the WBC guys to speed up, what because their writers didn't think the publishers were seriously committed to the projects--their respective series? The reality is that life happens. Scholars die, get sick, get sacked, get . . . you fill in the blank. Wayne House is writing on 4 books . . . sure Philemon should be "easy" but Corinthians? In ten years? Like he is planning not to sleep?
It would be nice to see the proposed format of one, just one commentary. What is it the authors are supposed to do with their commentaries? Technical lexical stuff? Exegetical stuff? From the hype, I see nothing on the proposed content or format. There is a big difference between a TNTC and a BEC and a NIGTC and a NIC commentary. I mean Bock wrote two whole large volumes on Luke. What is there left for Porter to say?[:D]
An abridged print form? You gotta be kidding . . . who would use that? No prof would allow a student to use it at any reputable seminary. But the digital will be in accessible because you cannot put it in the library, so if you cannot buy it, you cannot use it. No writer can afford to BUY everything they cite and no serious writer would cite an abridgment. So a print abridgment is of little value.
Some of the commentators are not even assigned. Unless God is on the staff of Logos and has made his mind known, not even Logos can guarantee the aggressive timetable. I talked with on friend who considered participating but decided against it because of the overly aggressive time-table.[8-|][N]
I think Logos needs to rethink the $700 up front part of this. I wrote to Bill Barrick about my concerns and he replied that "the early bird gets the worm." Well . . . I don't eat worms. And I am also reluctant to "buy a pig in a poke" (sack) for you less literate types.
I love Logos . . . but I am not sold on this
Jeff Straub
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Pig-in-a-poke has a great wikipedia article
... I must be a little rusty on my Late Middle Ages English
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You have put a lot of thought into this. The only comment I feel even 5% qualified is regarding:
Jeff Straub said:An abridged print form? You gotta be kidding . . . who would use that?
I would think there'd be a lot of "lay Bible students" etc who'd love a nice recent commentary, especially with all the technical stuff removed. Especially if they (Logos) deliver on the application part of the commentary. Just saying, it doesn't seem outlandish.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
You have put a lot of thought into this. The only comment I feel even 5% qualified is regarding:
Jeff Straub said:An abridged print form? You gotta be kidding . . . who would use that?
I would think there'd be a lot of "lay Bible students" etc who'd love a nice recent commentary, especially with all the technical stuff removed. Especially if they (Logos) deliver on the application part of the commentary. Just saying, it doesn't seem outlandish.
True. But inability of libraries to shelve the full commentaries is a good point, and it seems it would marginalize the set if the unabridged text is only available in Logos. Of course Logos might have future plans for these issues that they haven't shared with us yet.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Logos is an amateur at publishing, at least commentary publishing . . .
I don't believe there are amateurs in the commentary publishing business. I believe there can be professionals that take plenty of hard knock lessons whilst they produce commentaries but the "amateurs" are probably less inclined to make it past gathering the writers and developing the content"
It would be nice to see the proposed format of one, just one commentary. What is it the authors are supposed to do with their commentaries? Technical lexical stuff? Exegetical stuff? From the hype, I see nothing on the proposed content or format. There is a big difference between a TNTC and a BEC and a NIGTC and a NIC commentary. I mean Bock wrote two whole large volumes on Luke. What is there left for Porter to say?
Its possible over 16,000 fans on facebook and many others want to see a less solely technical lexical and a more applicative commentary. Of course many commentaries have attempted this very formula, I believe the EEC would be one to recommend straight to the church members instead of stopping at the well trained pastor or leader.
Some of the commentators are not even assigned. Unless God is on the staff of Logos and has made his mind known, not even Logos can guarantee the aggressive timetable.
The series was already underway before Logos became involved. I would assume some of the material is in the editorial process or beyond.
and maybe I missed it but I was curious as to your proposal Jeff, was there something you thought maybe Logos could change on as they move forward?
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Jeff Straub said:
Logos is an amateur at publishing, at least commentary publishing .
There is a difference in digital publishing and traditional publishing. The old guard must change with the times or die. We saw Nelson undergo a big shakeup in company leadership earlier this year. Traditional publishers have been abandoning the big projects as too expensive and risky. It is not just an EEC thing.
Logos is THE leader in publishing digital commentaries. No one else comes close. Logos has been successful because they watch, listen and adapt to meet the needs of the moment. You have to concede NIC, ICC, WBC and all the other fine commentaries are MORE useful in the Logos format than they are in hard copy form. My favorite lexicographer, Oreste Vaccari, had a motto: "To do better what others do well." This is what I see Logos doing every day of every year. They take something good and make it better. I would put my money on Logos to actually be able to pull off this ambitious EEC project better than any of the traditional publishers could. Bob Pritchett has shown he can chase a dream into reality and Dale and Dan Pritchett know how to sell others on the dream. If it is going to get done, it will be done by Logos.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:Jeff Straub said:
Logos is an amateur at publishing, at least commentary publishing .
There is a difference in digital publishing and traditional publishing. The old guard must change with the times or die. We saw Nelson undergo a big shakeup in company leadership earlier this year. Traditional publishers have been abandoning the big projects as too expensive and risky. It is not just an EEC thing.
Logos is THE leader in publishing digital commentaries. No one else comes close. Logos has been successful because they watch, listen and adapt to meet the needs of the moment. You have to concede NIC, ICC, WBC and all the other fine commentaries are MORE useful in the Logos format than they are in hard copy form. My favorite lexicographer, Oreste Vaccari, had a motto: "To do better what others do well." This is what I see Logos doing every day of every year. They take something good and make it better. I would put my money on Logos to actually be able to pull off this ambitious EEC project better than any of the traditional publishers could. Bob Pritchett has shown he can chase a dream into reality and Dale and Dan Pritchett know how to sell others on the dream. If it is going to get done, it will be done by Logos.In Dan P's post about the EEC, he admitted that they didn't have all the answers, but were committed to making the project work. Logos has a proven track record and I am confident that they will do what is necessary to make this project work for everyone involved. They are real pioneers. When mistakes are made, they admit it and find another solution.
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Is anyone else just a little concerned that the Genesis commentator is a creationist. I must be more out of touch than I thought with the evangelical take on genesis. or maybe there are different stands of evangelical thought. the electronic series is bold, i'll give them that. i'm just concerned about the scholarship. if they invite a literalist to write on Genesis, what does that say about the rest of the series.
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Scott Lumsden said:
Is anyone else just a little concerned that the Genesis commentator is a creationist. I must be more out of touch than I thought with the evangelical take on genesis. or maybe there are different stands of evangelical thought. the electronic series is bold, i'll give them that. i'm just concerned about the scholarship. if they invite a literalist to write on Genesis, what does that say about the rest of the series.
Scott, as you might imagine, people with a wide variety of positions on Genesis use Logos BIble Software and read the forums, so by asking a question like that you're inviting theological debate, which isn't helpful on the forums and is actually strongly discouraged by Logos who hosts these forums. Many people likely agree with you, but nobody is supposed to be voicing such opinions here. It's unfortunate we can't have that kind of discussion to help people decide whether they want to buy this resource or not. But I'm sure there will be some of folks for whom that characteristic of the volume's author is a selling point. It is still a very live issue among some evangelicals.
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I see your point Rosie and get it that Logos does not want theological debate to cloud its product. i even somewhat agree that that's a good policy. But that made more sense when they were publishing other people's works. Logos is making a decision with this series to step into the world of Christian publishing by offering original work. The difference between publishing others work in digital form and publishing your own work means that you've made editorial decisions and are indeed promoting a position. I have no problem with Logos doing this, in fact I'm quite supportive and even excited that they've made this step. My point here is that at this point, Logos can't have it both ways. They can't say, "Hey, this is a landmark event of evangelical scholarship" and then not receive some comment from their constituency about what others think about content because they're now (for the first time) responsible for content.
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Scott Lumsden said:
Is anyone else just a little concerned that the Genesis commentator is a creationist. I must be more out of touch than I thought with the evangelical take on genesis. or maybe there are different stands of evangelical thought. the electronic series is bold, i'll give them that. i'm just concerned about the scholarship. if they invite a literalist to write on Genesis, what does that say about the rest of the series.
Hi Scott,
We won't settle the Creation question, virgin birth, bodily resurrection or even the existence of eternal, literal punishment in a forum debate. So we can abandon that goal. Your question has another underlying question we can address, and already have several times. That being, "Should I entertain theological viewpoints in my Logos resources that I do not agree with?" That is a fair question that merits asking.
I have been treated by very brilliant medical doctors who hold to religions that I find bordering on the ridiculous. (I refuse to enumerate the long lists of things I find unbelievable about their dearly held beliefs.) Their naivete in spiritual matters did not prevent them from very ably addressing my biological needs. Had I marginalized them because of my differences I would have lost out on their help.
While I do not hold the same disdain for the viewpoints of the EEC authors I would consider hearing their points even if I did disagree with them. There is hardly a consensus of theological matters across the board with the present scholarly commentaries in print. My response to the divergent views expressed could be to mock them, or attack them, or avoid them like a disease. Or I could read them and become aware of why they hold to their viewpoints. Caveat: An open mind can sometimes be changed. So if our goal is to remain in the place we presently find ourselves, it takes nothing more than blindfolds and earplugs. It all comes back to our answer to the question in blue stated above. Can we learn from people we disagree with? Do they have anything worthwhile to teach us? Have we considered & addressed their points to our satisfaction? Can nothing new be learned? The true spirit of scholarship is asking the questions with an open mind.
Welcome to the forums.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Scott Lumsden said:
you've made editorial decisions and are indeed promoting a position. I have no problem with Logos doing this, in fact I'm quite supportive and even excited that they've made this step. My point here is that at this point, Logos can't have it both ways.
Logos has not wavered off the same spot they have been standing in from the beginning. They are all about Bible study. They have published Bible study material by literalists, mystics, textual critics, agnostics and even (dare I say?) cultists! There have been frequent outcries against various resources being published. (Thayer's lexicon comes to mind.) Some have tried to denigrate other denominations or theological camps, even to the point of requesting Logos cease publication. That is what lead to the forum guidelines forbidding theological debates http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx . Logos operates under the free enterprise system. They publish what they will and we vote with our dollars. If they get real goofy on us they will lose enough sales to go out of business. If they allow others to dictate what will (or will NOT) be published, they will not enjoy the success they presently do. It is all about Bible study. Be that Septuagint, Korean Bibles, The Message, Reverse Interlinears, what-have-you...
btw: I am not sure Logos made all the author choices for the EEC anyway. It really doesn't matter -- unless we are afraid we will be swayed off our dogma with a good scholarly argument presented by someone we disagree with. [:O]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
That being, "Should I entertain theological viewpoints in my Logos resources that I do not agree with?" That is a fair question that merits asking.
How does one test one's beliefs without exposure to other opinions? I will admit, however, that last night I was so tempted to enter a suggestion that I be able to enter negative stars for incredible stupidity - the issue was language not interpretation.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
btw: I am not sure Logos made all the author choices for the EEC anyway. It really doesn't matter -- unless we are afraid we will be swayed off our dogma with a good scholarly argument presented by someone we disagree with.
Yes. In fact, I am sure that Logos did not make all the author choices. As it states on the EEC website in the history of the project. Logos came into this after many volumes were on their way to completion. Logos was connected with looking for a few scholars to contribute, but not many--not many at all.
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MJ. Smith said:Matthew C Jones said:
That being, "Should I entertain theological viewpoints in my Logos resources that I do not agree with?" That is a fair question that merits asking.
How does one test one's beliefs without exposure to other opinions?
Two great questions.
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