For the First Time I Regret Building a Library in Logos
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For me I have no regrets in the money I have invested in Logos. I started out with QuickVerse.
I agree with you. I started with Quickverse, then Biblesoft, which I lost my resources to, perhaps due to the bankruptcy of the company after that Bible search. You can never compare them with Logos. I am very happy with Logos.
Blessings in Christ.
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I have tried to talk myself into giving them at least one chance with the new format of business - but I do NOT want to be forced into changing my study flow and lose efficient function for the sake of fluff that comes with the Dynamic Toolbar....
I am finding the Dynamic Toolbar to be very useful in my workflow.
I'm glad it works for you, I'm sure many will like it. Based on some other opinions listed here and the times I've tested it on the web app - it will not for me. I do not want more clicks and to need to relearn where some Logos developer decides to bury a command. This is why I will keep recommending that an option is made available - those who love the Dynamic can use it - those who prefer the classic can use it and Logos would be reaching the most users with the content they would use.
As of now, I'm already skeptical of forcing a subscription model on the customer base as the only way to have a future with Logos - but now forcing long time users to change the way they study and for many who have commented, in a way that makes it less efficient is NOT an improvement.
Hopefully they are listening and keep the toolbar as an option
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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this makes me nervous their approach will move more towards renting a library via subscription instead of owning books and those of us who own key resources will be "legacy" where new books are included in subscriptions but not sale.
I'm not sure that you're understanding the "legacy" aspect of the subscription plan. The legacy license doesn't refer to being stuck with only what you have at this point, but will continue to include new features released in the future for which someone has paid a two year subscription. The only features not included will be the AI features which require internet.
Ultimately, if you choose to just pre-pay for a 2 year subscription, then you would be functionally upgrading like you have every other upgrade cycle and own the features, with again the exception of the AI features, which you don't seem to really be concerned with anyway. Every other two year upgrade cycle you have paid a lump sum and gotten all new features. You can still do that under the new subscription plan.
But maybe I'm misunderstanding your concerns.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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for neural analysis
You noticed neural nerds captured a Nobel!!
And certainly deserved! But I suspect (like explosives; Nobel), folks aren't quite sure 'what's next'!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I'm not sure that you're understanding the "legacy" aspect of the subscription plan. The legacy license doesn't refer to being stuck with only what you have at this point, but will continue to include new features released in the future for which someone has paid a two year subscription. The only features not included will be the AI features which require internet.
I think (guessing of course) that 'legacy' will be as Samuel imagines. A group of earlier customers that were ceded some benefit for their early participation (quid pro quo being a package checkoff, and a continued payment).
But past 2 years, I have my doubts. By that time, the apps will be all mucked up (app internals, a series of switches that may or may not coordinate correctly and the UI??). Multiply by type of device and bugs galore. And by that time, the PE's can see some type of track-record on success .... more change needed.
In my mind, 'legacy' is a 2-year compromise.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I know exactly where the information is coming from and because I have tagged my library, I can choose to search only my Reformed, or Arminian, or Charismatic, or Covenant, or Dispensational, or Eschatological resources.
I think you're illustrating the value of the summaries, etc. I'm reluctant to apply the abbreviation 'AI'. My library is tagged by good reasoning, and data, vs fluff and terrible logic. The summary would not know the difference. It would know the world of label assignment (modern theology).
But like Mike, I insist on knowing my books. Those little yellow books in college to help avoid actually reading the book; not needed.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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for neural analysis
You noticed neural nerds captured a Nobel!!
And certainly deserved! But I suspect (like explosives; Nobel), folks aren't quite sure 'what's next'!
[Y]
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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The other companies did not offend anyone with new policies to maintain their profitability, they just went out of business. I glad Logos is going the other way.
And I hope it works for them - I have no desire to see Logos go out of business. I don't think that it's a stark binary choice, though - offend customers with new policies, or go out of business. It really wouldn't take much to keep me as a customer, and there are several ways they could do it. Offering a one-time purchase at a somewhat higher price or offering a non-subscription version that doesn't include the cloud-based AI features would do it. Or something else that I haven't thought of.
All of my eggs are pretty much in their basket too (though I do have a lot of resources both in paper and on Kindle). But I'm not a full-time academic, and I'm not currently in full-time ministry. I don't have to have Logos. I suspect I'm not the only one who can say that.
All I can say is that I recently decided to move away from the industry standard software in another field because they moved to a pure subscription model, and paid more for a competing product that is more limited because I could do a one-time purchase. The funny thing is that I've already upgraded it once. But I'm not locked into an ongoing subscription, which is becoming increasingly important to me as I approach retirement.
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EastTN,
I mean this in the kindest way, if they offered a purchase price of say $189 for all the non-AI features, but would also allow you to use the AI features for 2 years, would that be of interest? Maybe if they offered 3 different tiers for study group leaders, pastors and original language at different prices, similar to Bronze, Silver and Gold in the past?
How is that any different from paying the 2 year subscription price and getting the same thing? Logos tried to figure out a way to allow for "ownership" of non-AI features by allowing ownership of those features with a 2 year subscription. To me, and I may be missing something, it is the same thing as a "purchase option" for non-AI features.
You would normally purchase a new feature set every two years or just keep what you have if you are not interested in upgrading. Similarly, you can choose to continue the subscription or just opt out.
Please advise me on what I am missing.
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EastTN,
I mean this in the kindest way, if they offered a purchase price of say $189 for all the non-AI features, but would also allow you to use the AI features for 2 years, would that be of interest? Maybe if they offered 3 different tiers for study group leaders, pastors and original language at different prices, similar to Bronze, Silver and Gold in the past?
How is that any different from paying the 2 year subscription price and getting the same thing? Logos tried to figure out a way to allow for "ownership" of non-AI features by allowing ownership of those features with a 2 year subscription. To me, and I may be missing something, it is the same thing as a "purchase option" for non-AI features.
You would normally purchase a new feature set every two years or just keep what you have if you are not interested in upgrading. Similarly, you can choose to continue the subscription or just opt out.
Please advise me on what I am missing.
This was my point, and as far as I know, they are indeed planning to offer a two year plan.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Can't speak for EastTN but the difference for me is the pig-in-a-poke problem. Previously, you decided if worth the money. Now you just fork-over and hope.
And yes, even FL is clueless about the poke.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Can't speak for EastTN but the difference for me is the pig-in-a-poke problem. Previously, you decided if worth the money. Now you just fork-over and hope.
And yes, even FL is clueless about the poke.
if I recall you don’t purchase feature sets and not sure I follow you analogy but it probably me being dense.
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Pig-in-a-poke means unknown trade ... in the past, I've known what the offered features were ... and didn't like/need, for the last 2 cycles. Earlier features (full upgrade) were great. But I could see the offer. You're suggesting hand over the money and hope. Big difference.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Got it. valid point.
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The statement I highlighted in bold is the primary reason I don't think I will be able to continue recommending Logos to new customers who have never owned a Logos feature set--customers looking at Logos for the first time after Logos goes subscription only. As I understand it, those new customers who come aboard after Logos goes subscription only, will NOT own any features, regardless of how they pay (by month, annually, or two years up front), nor will it matter how many years they have been subscribing. Yes, they will own their resources, and will be able to read them, but if they stop subscribing, reading their resources is all they'll be able to do.I'm not sure that you're understanding the "legacy" aspect of the subscription plan. The legacy license doesn't refer to being stuck with only what you have at this point, but will continue to include new features released in the future for which someone has paid a two year subscription. The only features not included will be the AI features which require internet.
Ultimately, if you choose to just pre-pay for a 2 year subscription, then you would be functionally upgrading like you have every other upgrade cycle and own the features, with again the exception of the AI features, which you don't seem to really be concerned with anyway. Every other two year upgrade cycle you have paid a lump sum and gotten all new features. You can still do that under the new subscription plan.
If I'm mistaken, I would truly appreciate being pointed to an official statement from Logos/Faithlife to the contrary.0 -
I have tried to talk myself into giving them at least one chance with the new format of business - but I do NOT want to be forced into changing my study flow and lose efficient function for the sake of fluff that comes with the Dynamic Toolbar....
I am finding the Dynamic Toolbar to be very useful in my workflow.
I'm glad it works for you, I'm sure many will like it. Based on some other opinions listed here and the times I've tested it on the web app - it will not for me. I do not want more clicks and to need to relearn where some Logos developer decides to bury a command. This is why I will keep recommending that an option is made available - those who love the Dynamic can use it - those who prefer the classic can use it and Logos would be reaching the most users with the content they would use.
As of now, I'm already skeptical of forcing a subscription model on the customer base as the only way to have a future with Logos - but now forcing long time users to change the way they study and for many who have commented, in a way that makes it less efficient is NOT an improvement.
Hopefully they are listening and keep the toolbar as an option
Yes please, bring it as an option.
In general if I compare the Accordance preferences and the Logos preferences. Logos is way behind. You can in Accordance much more manipulate. Speed adjustments of Read Aloud (recently requested in the forum), old / new interface, Keyboard-Shortcuts (Recently discussed on the German Forum), and much more ....
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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If I'm mistaken, I would truly appreciate being pointed to an official statement from Logos/Faithlife to the contrary.
I think correct. The new Logosian will want videos for learning, and then be presented with subscribe-only features examples. It won't be pretty.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The new Logosian will want videos for learning, and then be presented with subscribe-only features examples. It won't be pretty.
Agreed. I think they are betting on the car-lease mentality...meaning a significant number of people can't do math and will lease a car despite the terrible long-term investment realities for most situations. This will indeed increase revenue for the company, though.
For those that are young enough to care nothing about long-term investment, I think the subscription model will make sense.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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I'm not sure that you're understanding the "legacy" aspect of the subscription plan. The legacy license doesn't refer to being stuck with only what you have at this point, but will continue to include new features released in the future for which someone has paid a two year subscription. The only features not included will be the AI features which require internet.
What you are saying illustrates some of my confusion why Logos decided to do an "all or nothing" approach. They could have easily continued to offer Logos as a periodic upgrade for those who decided to purchase features and then offer AI based features as a subscription. This would have been a win/win though my guess is that Logos thought forcing the subscription model would be more profitable. And they probably only want to manage one set of features.
I would say it's different from a few reasons:
New accounts are subscription only - this tells you that all of us are being accommodated. That clearly indicates they are trying to placate some existing customers that don't want a subscription product. But the fact that it is now a subscription product means it will slowly move away from those of us who didn't buy Logos to be a subscription. If the product isn't frozen now (feature wise) it will be soon.
I am sure Logos will sell a lot of two year subscriptions initially from people who are trying to secure the "legacy" license but as far as I know this is a one time deal that seems to be clearly designed to try to get people on a subscription they hopefully won't cancel. So maybe it's not a legacy app with frozen features today, but the best case scenario is that it is in two years. And the whole idea of the legacy license is that if we don't take advantage of this special deal and don't keep paying a subscription we lose features new features so again it's an accommodation to help Logos transition to a different app and a different app model. One that myself and others didn't want but are now stuck with.
While it may work out similarly dollar wise, depending on what a person buys, to a regular habit of upgrading it's very different because we pay up front not knowing what we pay for and we can then keep these unknown features only if we pay a set price for two years for features we may or may not even benefit from. And if we stop the subscription after the two years then we end up with a frozen product. So honestly the writing is on the wall for all of us who don't want a subscription product.
It seems it could have been very simple for Logos to offer a subscription for AI features and even unreleased features and do a point release every two years where people could chose an upgrade as in the past. But we'll see what happens. It's just sad that Accordance isn't in great shape at the moment. Perhaps this will create a market for people that want fast, linked texts in a straightforward Bible software we can buy and not "rent." But I don't have high hopes.
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On the other hand (and there is one), think back 2, 4, 6 years. Are you glad now that you have all the stuff you bought along the way?
There have been some pretty good pigs in those pokes. Maybe we will also discover some fine swine in subscriptions to come. Think of yourself as Indiana Jones. Take a chance. Perhaps in just two short years we will find that the swine we expected in a poke have been cast into outer darkness, and we stand dazzled by a glimmering lost ark!
In other words. It could be worse than we hope, but it also might be better than we imagine. Logos has a pretty solid history. Since the inevitable is upon us, and it's not all that bad, and might be quite good; I am going to take a deep breath and forge forward with things that matter.0 -
New accounts are subscription only - this tells you that all of us are being accommodated.
This is my confusion. I thought everyone could own features after two years. I did not realize it was only for current owners.
Ultimately, I am okay with the way Adobe does subscriptions, and Logos is going the same route. I would not be able to purchase the Adobe Creative Suite outright, and I certainly wouldn't want to purchase a new upgrade every year or two, so the subscription works out for me.
I am heavily invested in Logos, so my upgrades are cheaper; however, I do see that the subscription service will make Logos more welcoming for new customers, and I don't see where I'm being hurt by it, so if that's what makes Logos stay around for a long time so that I can still make use of my investment, then I am okay with it.
I do understand though that others have issues with it, and I am certainly not dismissing those complaints.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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so if that's what makes Logos stay around for a long time so that I can still make use of my investment, then I am okay with it.
🙏🏿
Blessings in Christ.
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Cash flow for Logos is a good thing for us because it keeps them in business. A "frozen in time" product is better than a dead product. I have 6000+ books, and I want to be able to keep using them. Nonetheless, even if you never pay for another new feature or buy a subscription, you will benefit because the basic product will always be upgraded to the latest technology so you can run it on the latest platforms.
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Part of what bothers me about the consequence that will be faced by new subscription customers who never owned a feature set, is whether or not it occurs to them, they are making a long-term investment in the resources they buy--resources that cost more in Logos than they do elsewhere because of all the tagging, etc. that Logos says (and I agree) make the resources worth more. But will the resources (the long-term investment) really be worth the higher price, if the features needed to benefit from that extra resource work are lost because a person has to stop subscribing and they have no two-year subscription option that makes ownership of the features then in place available to them.The new Logosian will want videos for learning, and then be presented with subscribe-only features examples. It won't be pretty.
Agreed. I think they are betting on the car-lease mentality...meaning a significant number of people can't do math and will lease a car despite the terrible long-term investment realities for most situations. This will indeed increase revenue for the company, though.
For those that are young enough to care nothing about long-term investment, I think the subscription model will make sense.
Again, I'm hoping there's something I'm missing or misunderstanding, but I haven't seen the issue of higher resource investment cost addressed. If a future new customer has to stop their subscription, what features (if any) will they be left with to justify the initial higher resource cost? At that point, will Logos be anything more for the customer than a tool for reading their expensive resources?
I find it hard to believe Logos will be nothing more than a reading app if a person has to stop subscribing. But recommending Logos to future potential customers is not something I'll be able to do without having a better handle on this issue.
And as others have noted--time stands still for no one (and no app). So over time, Logos WILL change--that's just life. So even those of us who currently own the highest feature set will likely see current features eventually retired, replaced, or blended into newer features by another name, until it reaches the point that in regard to the value/benefit we'll get out of our long-term investment in resources from our current features, will diminish or possibly disappear entirely unless we subscribe. If so, we'll be faced with the same dilemma as new future subscriber customers who find they have to stop subscribing.0 -
Cash flow for Logos from subscriptions is a good thing for us, even if we don't have a subscription, because it keeps Logos in business. A "frozen in time" product is better than a dead product. I have 6000+ books, and I want to be able to keep using them. Even if you never pay for another new feature or buy a subscription, you will benefit because the basic product will always be upgraded to the latest technology so you can run it on the latest platforms.
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EastTN,
I mean this in the kindest way, if they offered a purchase price of say $189 for all the non-AI features, but would also allow you to use the AI features for 2 years, would that be of interest? Maybe if they offered 3 different tiers for study group leaders, pastors and original language at different prices, similar to Bronze, Silver and Gold in the past?
How is that any different from paying the 2 year subscription price and getting the same thing? Logos tried to figure out a way to allow for "ownership" of non-AI features by allowing ownership of those features with a 2 year subscription. To me, and I may be missing something, it is the same thing as a "purchase option" for non-AI features.
You would normally purchase a new feature set every two years or just keep what you have if you are not interested in upgrading. Similarly, you can choose to continue the subscription or just opt out.
Please advise me on what I am missing.
John,
First of all, I hope I haven't impugned anyone's motives here - I assume we're all operating in good faith. Your question is kindly framed, and I appreciate that.
It seems to me that what you're describing is fundamentally different in a couple of significant ways. First, a subscription sets up a recurring charge against your credit card or bank account. It's easy to lose track of subscriptions, and it's easy for the vendor to increase them bit-by-bit over time. You may track your finances closely enough that this isn't a concern for you, but it is for me due to my personal situation. I'm close to retirement, and I know - don't expect, but know - that my income will drop sharply in just a few years. I can afford to buy now but must be careful about committing to making future payments out of a much lower, fixed retirement income. Not everyone is in that boat, but still - that's where I am, and it's a concern for me. It's not just Logos - I'm doing my best to avoid taking on any new subscriptions, and taking a number of other steps to prepare for retirement. Second, it is a two-year commitment - and we're not getting the AI features for free. We may be getting them for "no additional charge," but they're not free. That's just basic economics.
On my part, I'd like to say this as kindly as I can. I think it makes perfect sense for FaithLife to offer subscription plans. Generative AI is currently the hot new technological thing, so I'm not surprised that they've jumped on the bandwagon (though I personally think it's premature, and I'm very concerned about both the dangers of allowing AI to "ghostwrite" our sermons and lessons and the possibility of AI hallucinations affecting my studies). But a subscription model doesn't make a lot of financial sense in my personal situation, and I don't see enough potential benefit in the cloud-based AI tools to cause me to make the ongoing financial commitment over my best judgment. (Especially since Logos already has far more bells and whistles than I'll ever use.)
Having said that, I recognize that this may be wonderful for many other users - which is great. I'm just frustrated and saddened that FaithLife isn't providing an upgrade path that makes sense for me. I wish they would, and don't understand why they don't, because it wouldn't be that hard.
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EastTN,
I agree with you, that in your case, there is cause for concern for the future. Many of us are close to being in the same boat as you are. And I agree that there must be a better way to take care of faithful Logos users like you, I'm just not sure it can be done easily.
Right now, if you pay up front for the Legacy Fallback License it will cost you 189.00. and you get to keep all non AI features except what you already had in Logos full feature set. But who knows if they will continue that type of program for the future. So, at some point we would come to the rock and a hard place.
What seems hard for me to figure out is how to make it better.
1. Do they go back and offer two versions of Logos? version 1, everything with subscription and version 2, everything but server access and AI features?
I don't think most users realize how much Logos 10 already depends on Logos servers, and the associated costs of maintaining that. So, what features would we lose in the no server version?
I see the problem is as I see it, is that Logos obviously needs a consistent cash flow, Bob owned Logos with no debt, new owner has debt and needs to recoup his investment and keep the doors open.
If the old model was financially sustainable, I believe Logos would have Kept it.
The cost of Bob's long ago promise to offer free upgrades for life are now a huge cost to the new owners of Logos for continued customer support for users not making any purchases, which according to them, most of their users are "one and done" purchasers.
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I'm having mixed feelings.
Titles impress people, obedience impresses God.
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...And I agree that there must be a better way to take care of faithful Logos users like you, I'm just not sure it can be done easily.
You may be right. It doesn't strike me as being that difficult, but I could be wrong about that.
1. Do they go back and offer two versions of Logos? version 1, everything with subscription and version 2, everything but server access and AI features?
They already offer differing levels of feature sets - and have for a long time - so that wouldn't be anything new. Just leave the new cloud-based features (including the translate feature) out of the lowest level feature set, and you're there.
I don't think most users realize how much Logos 10 already depends on Logos servers, and the associated costs of maintaining that. So, what features would we lose in the no server version?
Maybe so. I do appreciate the cloud syncing across different devices, and the ability to download the books I own whenever I buy a new device. But they've been doing that for years, so I doubt that's what's driving the concern about server capacity. Other than that, I don't believe I'm using any server-heavy services. I've only used translate a couple of times, and while it's nice enough, I'd be willing to give that up.
If the old model was financially sustainable, I believe Logos would have Kept it.
Maybe. I do wonder what it is that's making the old model unsustainable. There's been a lot of discussion about the need for a new revenue model to support the new cloud-based AI features that they're developing. Given that I don't actually want those features, that argument isn't as compelling for me as it might be for someone else. But I do have to wonder if an alternative approach might be more sustainable if they weren't chasing cutting-edge tech quite as hard as they seem to be.
The cost of Bob's long ago promise to offer free upgrades for life are now a huge cost to the new owners of Logos for continued customer support for users not making any purchases, which according to them, most of their users are "one and done" purchasers.
That's a fair point, though I never interpreted the promise to be that users would get future feature enhancements free for life - just that they would do the necessary maintenance updates to make sure the books were still usable as operating systems and hardware platforms evolved.
I'm not sure what they mean by "one and done" purchasers. If that truly means that most buy a package, and then never come back for additional resources or upgrades, then that should tell them something the usability and appeal of the product. My guess is that folks like that bought the product, were overwhelmed, gave up and moved on. I actually did that once, and it was five years before I tried Logos again. It's going to be very difficult to convert that kind of user to a subscription model.
If they're talking about people like me who're active customers, but haven't signed on to one of the current subscription plans, the question becomes "how many can they force to subscribe." It'll be interesting to see. For myself, generative AI is not a compelling use case.
Anyway, it's an interesting conversation. It's clearly in FaithLife's court. It'll be interesting to see how the rollout goes for them.
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I'm not sure what they mean by "one and done" purchasers. If that truly means that most buy a package, and then never come back for additional resources or upgrades, then that should tell them something the usability and appeal of the product. My guess is that folks like that bought the product, were overwhelmed, gave up and moved on. I actually did that once, and it was five years before I tried Logos again. It's going to be very difficult to convert that kind of user to a subscription model.
Related to this I've seen so many comments that maybe Logos needs to be a subscription to stay in business, but Logos isn't just an application. It's essentially a book store where Logos develops a product (book) once and sells it over and over basically forever. I would think that books give Logos another significant revenue stream beyond the application development side. Especially because most of us by expensive books and the the best books aren't usually in packages - they must be purchased separately. This is another reason I'm not sure the subscription model is the only way. Logos is a bit unique here compared to other software businesses where the software is the only revenue stream.
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