The New dynamic toolbar
The New dynamic toolbar is AMAZING!!!!
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Oystein Bergsvik said:
The New dynamic toolbar is AMAZING!!!!
Agreed. It didn’t take much time at all for me to get accustomed to it and it is now a useful and efficient part of my workflow.
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Oystein Bergsvik said:
The New dynamic toolbar is AMAZING!!!!
I haven’t downloaded the update yet. I will do so after work.
DAL0 -
Agreed, it is worth taking the tme to adapt to it.
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Oystein Bergsvik said:
The New dynamic toolbar is AMAZING!!!!
Okay I'm one who never read any of the toolbar beta threads because I can only keep up with so many forum drama megathreads. I just downloaded the update 5 minutes ago and LOVE THIS! It's almost worth the subscription price. (No, not really, but it's making me feel much better about the whole thing.) This meets some needs I personally had and ends some minor frustrations I had with the UI.
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Sean said:Oystein Bergsvik said:
The New dynamic toolbar is AMAZING!!!!
Okay I'm one who never read any of the toolbar beta threads because I can only keep up with so many forum drama megathreads. I just downloaded the update 5 minutes ago and LOVE THIS! It's almost worth the subscription price. (No, not really, but it's making me feel much better about the whole thing.) This meets some needs I personally had and ends some minor frustrations I had with the UI.
agreed! so useful and practical!
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Oystein Bergsvik said:
The New dynamic toolbar is AMAZING!!!!
Is there available a single diagram showing the hierarchy in the new Dynamic Toolbar. It would help us to find a particular menu items that have been grouped under the various categories.
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I concur! So much nicer and user friendly in my opinion.
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I was one of the guys who, when I first opened it, didn't like it.
After only about five minutes of use, I decided it was a good idea.
A couple weeks in, I think it was a great idea.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Dynamic Toolbar is a great idea.
BUT.... I hope they fix the click click click click to get to the Interlinear and then the click click to get out of it soon. I liked the old click Interlinear and click turn it off. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
BUT.... I hope they fix the click click click click to get to the Interlinear and then the click click to get out of it soon. I liked the old click Interlinear and click turn it off.
Absolutely! I would like to be able to click to see it and click for it to disappear!!!!
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Charlene said:xnman said:
BUT.... I hope they fix the click click click click to get to the Interlinear and then the click click to get out of it soon. I liked the old click Interlinear and click turn it off.
Absolutely! I would like to be able to click to see it and click for it to disappear!!!!
Or you use a keyboard shortcut to show/hide the interlinear pane:
Mac Keyboard Shortcuts
• Shift+Cmd+R – Show/Hide Interlinear Pane
Windows Keyboard Shortcuts
• Ctrl+Shift+R - Show/Hide Interlinear Pane
Logos Help. (2024). Faithlife.1 -
xnman said:
Dynamic Toolbar is a great idea.
BUT.... I hope they fix the click click click click to get to the Interlinear and then the click click to get out of it soon. I liked the old click Interlinear and click turn it off.
I agree there are too many clicks.
I would prefer if all those buttons that have the little downwards arrow (i.e., can be turned on / off but also have options) could be turned on / off by clicking on the main button. And if I want the options, I click on the downwards arrow.
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I’m pleased with the new dynamic toolbar! Now are there any shortcut keys to access the tools that require many clicks? (e.g. interlinear).
Thanks!
DAL
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DAL said:
Now are there any shortcut keys to access the tools that require many clicks? (e.g. interlinear).
did you read the post 2nd above your's. I did not try it but ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It's funny how I just accepted the cryptic, figure-it-out menu/icon items the dynamic toolbar replaces, without ever thinking it was clunky or not user-friendly - until now, because indeed the new dynamic toolbar *is* amazing. I'm just so persistently dazzled by the depth of the features in Logos that the user interface is pretty secondary - but the clean-up is nice. And of course the wider a user base Faithlife can get, under the subscription model, the less geeky much of that user base is likely to be, so scattering menu items in the pane three-dot menu, the three cannonballs menu, and symbols such as the two forward slashes for parallel resources (actually pretty clever, but still geeky), would probably be a tougher sell to the wider user base.
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MJ. Smith said:DAL said:
Now are there any shortcut keys to access the tools that require many clicks? (e.g. interlinear).
did you read the post 2nd above your's. I did not try it but ...
The two big issues with this keyboard shortcut are it opens the whole pane vs the single click shortcut just opening the original language within the text and it still does not allow the Interlinear to be "closed"....
A third concern is the struggle for those with dexterity issues....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
The two big issues with this keyboard shortcut are it opens the whole pane vs the single click shortcut just opening the original language within the text and it still does not allow the Interlinear to be "closed"....
A third concern is the struggle for those with dexterity issues....
Problems 1 & 2 are fixed in the current beta. In windows, Ctrl+Shift+R works as expected and Ctrl+I works as expected as well, switching the interlinear button on and off.
As to problem 3, I am specifically looking forward to 2 improvements that have been hinted at in the forums and additional ones that may fall into the category of wishful thinking.
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Does this beta have a hotkey combination for turning parallel texts on and off? Burying that three layers deep (with a SLIDER, for crying out loud), irks me to no end.
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Believe me, I understand your frustration. However, I think they are on the right track for alleviating at least some of the frustration. A hotkey for parallel texts has not yet been implemented, but you are in good company. Many have asked for one, and I think it is in the works.Bob Venem said:Does this beta have a hotkey combination for turning parallel texts on and off? Burying that three layers deep (with a SLIDER, for crying out loud), irks me to no end.
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[Y]
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One last bit of whining: How about a "Translate" hotkey?
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The REAL, no kidding, last bit of whining: What about hotkeys to toggle Propositional Outlines and Discourse Features on/off? Those items would be the last of the workarounds I would need (for this "upgrade," anyway).
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
The two big issues with this keyboard shortcut are it opens the whole pane vs the single click shortcut just opening the original language within the text and it still does not allow the Interlinear to be "closed"....
A third concern is the struggle for those with dexterity issues....
Problems 1 & 2 are fixed in the current beta. In windows, Ctrl+Shift+R works as expected and Ctrl+I works as expected as well, switching the interlinear button on and off.
As to problem 3, I am specifically looking forward to 2 improvements that have been hinted at in the forums and additional ones that may fall into the category of wishful thinking.
In the current version (37.1.6) of Pro for Windows, with the pane and reverse interlinear DEselected, CTRL-SHIFT-R opens both the pane and the reverse interlinear. A second CTRL-SHIFT-R closes the pane. A third CTRL-SHIFT-R does nothing.
CTRL-I seems to do nothing.
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Peter_G said:
In the current version (37.1.6) of Pro for Windows, with the pane and reverse interlinear DEselected, CTRL-SHIFT-R opens both the pane and the reverse interlinear. A second CTRL-SHIFT-R closes the pane. A third CTRL-SHIFT-R does nothing.
CTRL-I seems to do nothing.
The fix should be available in a stable version in about 4 weeks
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How about a toggle icon that would let us switch between the previous tool bar and the new dynamic tool bar? Or at the very least, an icon to bring up all the keyboard shortcuts available to skip the click, click, click, click steps currently required if using a mouse with the dynamic tool bar ribbon and sub-menus?
I understand where Faithlife is trying to go with the dynamic tool bar, and I appreciate their effort. With a little tweaking (to be expected) I think it has a lot of potential. But it can be frustrating for those used to the older, in some ways, more efficient tool bar.
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Rick Ausdahl said:
How about a toggle icon that would let us switch between the previous tool bar and the new dynamic tool bar?
Hopefully that won't be implemented as "a new feature" and then be available only to subscribers ? [:O]
Remember how the dark mode/light mode switch was implemented?Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Rick Ausdahl said:
But it can be frustrating for those used to the older, in some ways, more efficient tool bar.
Not specifically responding to Rick but to all who are wanting a return to the familiar but less discoverable toolbar. Have you seen any of the articles on tasting new foods? The unnamed "they" say one should try a new food 5 times before deciding whether or not you like it. I think software user interfaces should come with a label stating they should be used for five weeks before any significant evaluation is made. I have grown to like the new imperfect resource toolbar and find that my biggest complaint now is one that didn't occur to me initially - I wish the Find had also been moved to the toolbar. I found many of the extra clicks were not intrusive as the short distances moved to the next click was short and quick. I don't toggle the interlinear on/off often but I see several possible solutions besides bring back the old as an option. Logos clearly understands the problem, let them find the best solution.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Have you seen any of the articles on tasting new foods? The unnamed "they" say one should try a new food 5 times before deciding whether or not you like it. I think software user interfaces should come with a label stating they should be used for five weeks before any significant evaluation is made.
The major difference is if a person does not like the food after trying it 5 times - they are not forced to include it in their diet.
MJ. Smith said:but I see several possible solutions besides bring back the old as an option.
"Bring back" alludes to it not being present - it is still fully present and being maintained for non-subscribers - we also know from Mark's video and a user who had it as an experimental feature, that a choice between toolbars is possible.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Another issue is that there are many, many, thousands more Logos users we never hear from. In reality only a minority voice their opinions here. I expect Logos don’t make significant decisions based on such a minority of opinions. One would think they are in receipt of communications from many more people than we ever come to know about.
👁️ 👁️
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Antony Brennan said:
One would think they are in receipt of communications from many more people than we ever come to know about
More than that, they are collecting user data where they can that shows what's being used, what's not being used, etc. They've deprecated a few features in the past after saying the usage data didn't support upkeep.
Your comment about sampling (users not on the forums) is an excellent observation that gets lost in the shuffle...great point.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:Antony Brennan said:
One would think they are in receipt of communications from many more people than we ever come to know about
More than that, they are collecting user data where they can that shows what's being used, what's not being used, etc. They've deprecated a few features in the past after saying the usage data didn't support upkeep.
Your comment about sampling (users not on the forums) is an excellent observation that gets lost in the shuffle...great point.
I agree the majority is not on the Forums, however any data they collect on whether the Dynamic Toolbar is popular or not - well, how accurate could it be? Subscribers are forced to use it and non-subscibers can't.... So without an option, even in a well rounded diverse user "test", it can't be accurately judged.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
how accurate could it be
No doubt the 'appreciation' (or not) is data they cannot collect. All they can see is use/non-use. But they do get a census rather than a sample of user data on use/non-use of features.
Perhaps non-use of some of the buried dynamic toolbar tools might tell them something? I don't know.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Frank Sauer said:
I agree the majority is not on the Forums, however any data they collect on whether the Dynamic Toolbar is popular or not - well, how accurate could it be?
Among their sources of data, I suspect the forums are not high on the list for "representative". However, what I suspect they are using includes:
- initial lab testing during the design process
- reports from Logos sponsored training and demos
- indirect evidence of discoverability i.e. uptick in usage of tools that were intended to be more discoverable
- ...
Yes, the forums have done a good job of telling Logos that it still has some toggle issues to address more adequately and that a few people would like additional functions moved to the dynamic toolbar and another few do not like the fact that a few resources have not been converted to it. I expect the first issue will be resolved within a couple of development cycles and that a wait-and-see approach may be taken for the additional issues.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Frank Sauer said:
I agree the majority is not on the Forums, however any data they collect on whether the Dynamic Toolbar is popular or not - well, how accurate could it be?
Among their sources of data, I suspect the forums are not high on the list for "representative". However, what I suspect they are using includes:
- initial lab testing during the design process
- reports from Logos sponsored training and demos
- indirect evidence of discoverability i.e. uptick in usage of tools that were intended to be more discoverable
- ...
Yes, the forums have done a good job of telling Logos that it still has some toggle issues to address more adequately and that a few people would like additional functions moved to the dynamic toolbar and another few do not like the fact that a few resources have not been converted to it. I expect the first issue will be resolved within a couple of development cycles and that a wait-and-see approach may be taken for the additional issues.
I would still question the accuracy of desired use or preference of toolbars, even with your suggested data collection....
Initial lab testing - How broad a user base was included or was it just Logos Developers and employees?
Reports from Training and Demos - This would be dependent upon how many attendees are brand new users without experience with the Classic Toolbar and honestly how many "Power Users" that care less about looks and more about efficiency.
The indirect evidence - maybe a little.... But then, how much is attributed to people searching for the tools and functions that they are used to finding more efficiently? How much is attributed to new users testing out their new purchase?
I'd still suggest that one of the more effective "tests" that would give representative info, would be an option of toolbars - thus seeing which the users defer to for daily use....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
Initial lab testing - How broad a user base was included or was it just Logos Developers and employees?
There are professional standards for the mix of newbies to experienced; most testing hopes to include color-blind, visually impaired, people of limited dexterity etc.
You are correct that no sampling is ever precisely right ... okay, there are statistical methods for estimating the margin of error which for particular cases may be brought to zero but ... However, I will accept Logos' analysis over speculation 100% of the time ... even if I can prove the Logos' analysis to be faulty. I think the new toolbar has these advantages:
- consolidation of some features from the panel menu into the toolbar
- better discovery of features due to named tabs
- better behavior in narrow panels due to the "more" option
- faster at some functions because of the shorter distance between clicks - unfortunately overshadowed by the increase in number of clicks for some functions
- splitting the different functions under visual filters is a major plus for discoverability ... and speed of finding the desired filter.
disadvantages:
- loss of quick toggle function (which I believe will be addressed quickly)
- real estate space which may be a matter of the extra click to collapse being habitual or may be a problem requiring resolution - they have made the collapse feature more visible
- the failure to move "find" into the toolbar
- the resources not moved to the dynamic toolbar - the issue needs to be resolved quickly as it implies sloppy design/incomplete feature to the use
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I like the new dynamic toolbar and the direction that is going. But I would like:
1) That I can have it remember its last previous expanded/minimized state. Most of the time I don't need it visible so please let me leave is minimized to save space on smaller screens
2) Work on reducing clicks. I know there are shortcuts, but please continue to reduce unnecessary clicks to turn major features on/off
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The shortcut for parallel texts has been command + shift + m (m for multi book) for a while now.
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MJ. Smith said:Frank Sauer said:
Initial lab testing - How broad a user base was included or was it just Logos Developers and employees?
There are professional standards for the mix of newbies to experienced; most testing hopes to include color-blind, visually impaired, people of limited dexterity etc.
You are correct that no sampling is ever precisely right ... okay, there are statistical methods for estimating the margin of error which for particular cases may be brought to zero but ... However, I will accept Logos' analysis over speculation 100% of the time ... even if I can prove the Logos' analysis to be faulty. I think the new toolbar has these advantages:
- consolidation of some features from the panel menu into the toolbar
- better discovery of features due to named tabs
- better behavior in narrow panels due to the "more" option
- faster at some functions because of the shorter distance between clicks - unfortunately overshadowed by the increase in number of clicks for some functions
- splitting the different functions under visual filters is a major plus for discoverability ... and speed of finding the desired filter.
disadvantages:
- loss of quick toggle function (which I believe will be addressed quickly)
- real estate space which may be a matter of the extra click to collapse being habitual or may be a problem requiring resolution - they have made the collapse feature more visible
- the failure to move "find" into the toolbar
- the resources not moved to the dynamic toolbar - the issue needs to be resolved quickly as it implies sloppy design/incomplete feature to the use
I understand your arguments and overall I agree with some notable exceptions. One being the click click click click to get to turn on Interlinear and then the click click or click click click click to turn off the Interlinear. I have heard they are working on this, which I hope is "fixed" to a way we can have click Interlinear on and click interlinear off as I think, for me anyway, I use the Interlinear a lot, every day when I am studying.
Overall, I am in favor of the Dynamic Toolbar... except as noted. I don't like "programs" or "functions of programs" that become "make more work" for the user. Having to click click click click fits into that scenario in my humble opinion simply because before Dynamic Toolbar it was click on and click off. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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After playing with it a bit and watching the MPSeminars video introduction to the new dynamic toolbar, I can say it looks very promising and it’s actually not that hard to figure out! Great job Logos Team and looking forward to some improvements to it.
DAL
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DAL said:
After playing with it a bit and watching the MPSeminars video introduction to the new dynamic toolbar, I can say it looks very promising and it’s actually not that hard to figure out! Great job Logos Team and looking forward to some improvements to it.
DAL
[Y]
KSC
“Let us begin, brothers, to serve the Lord God, for up until now we have done little or nothing.” St. Francis of Assisi
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DAL said:
I can say it looks very promising
Any UI design that requires this much discussion and customer like/dont-like, is not a well designed UI feature (certainly not one to attract subscribers).
My recommendation is to push the new toolbar to all users (standardize). And then design a really GREAT toolbar for the subscribers (Logos is well known, to re-design something 3 or 4 times ... Atlas is ready for attempt #5, timeline #3, text-comparison #4, etc).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
push the new toolbar to all users (standardize). And then design a really GREAT toolbar for the subscribers
I could live with that.
DMB said:(Logos is well known, to re-design something 3 or 4 times
Yes, they are. Sometimes that's a good thing. I have high hopes for this to be one of those as there's a lot of room for improvement in a redesign. We'll see.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:DMB said:
push the new toolbar to all users (standardize). And then design a really GREAT toolbar for the subscribers
I could live with that.
Time to make sure I keep a Version 36 backup - I do not want to get punished with an inefficient design - The toolbar is the main reason I will not give the LFL a chance.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
Time to make sure I keep a Version 36 backup -
I was thinking to 'hold' at the February version (this seems like a poker game). But then I thought, given Mark's described plan to fix long-standing bugs, I updated to '36'. It's still quite buggy (so much for 'the plan'). But ok for a long-run, if they do as I'd do above! Logos7 (my last long-hold) was pretty bug-free.
I have loaded up on Logos/Verbum packages for the coming winter, however, and mainly buying/reading the Big A, now. FL free'd up my book budget!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I know this has been raised, but let me add my frustration at the backward step in the toolbar for turning the interlinears on and off, something which I do several times a day.
Please can't we have a shortcut for this!
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DMB said:DAL said:
I can say it looks very promising
Any UI design that requires this much discussion and customer like/dont-like, is not a well designed UI feature (certainly not one to attract subscribers).
My recommendation is to push the new toolbar to all users (standardize). And then design a really GREAT toolbar for the subscribers (Logos is well known, to re-design something 3 or 4 times ... Atlas is ready for attempt #5, timeline #3, text-comparison #4, etc).
Great ideas 💡 I definitely wouldn’t mind subscribers having their own unique toolbar!
DAL
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DAL said:
Great ideas 💡 I definitely wouldn’t mind subscribers having their own unique toolbar!
I am absolutely confident the 'subscription' pill would go down easier with a customizable tool menu. But they're dug in, manhours-wise.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
I am absolutely confident the 'subscription' pill would go down easier with a customizable tool menu. But they're dug in, manhours-wise
I'm still holding out hope for a "custom" tab on the new toolbar. That would be an absolute breakthrough (especially if we got our split/dual button back).
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DMB said:DAL said:
Great ideas 💡 I definitely wouldn’t mind subscribers having their own unique toolbar!
I am absolutely confident the 'subscription' pill would go down easier with a customizable tool menu. But they're dug in, manhours-wise.
It does appear that the new toolbar was one of the "big" features for the New Era and with the amount of push against it - it would take away one of the "big" selling points FOR subscription if they gave a choice.... Hopefully they finally come around and give subscribers an option of which toolbar they'd use... Unfortunately giving an option and the question of Feature Parity with the Android Sermon features are not receiving comment from Logos Leadership lately....
I still have Logos Max 2 year sitting in my cart - once I could have a choice in toolbars I'm willing to check out - if they refuse to give an option - I guess my time as an active customer is in the cart waiting to check out
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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