Use of AI - sustainability

A more general question, not with the intention to provoke fierce debates but out of genuine curiosity:

I love the new AI options in Logos, and I think you have done a great job to make responsibly use of AI within the Logos context. However, as many are aware, AI is known for huge power consumption and as such not without drawbacks for our planet.

How is Logos dealing with sustainability in this regard, and ensuring that the use of AI is balanced with caring for our planet?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

DAL

I wouldn’t even worry about it. The planet is not going to end due to AI 🤖 consumption or a hole in the ozone layer; it will end when God says it will end. So enjoy your AI feature and go crazy using it until you run out of credits!

DAL

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321814#Comment_1321814

The planet is not going to end due to AI 🤖 consumption or a hole in the ozone layer; it will end when God says it will end.

Hmmm... I need a chapter and verse where God explicitly states we don't bring the end upon ourselves as God "said". The concern is legitimate for those who emphasize stewardship.

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321825#Comment_1321825

The planet is not going to end due to AI 🤖 consumption or a hole in the ozone layer; it will end when God says it will end.

Hmmm... I need a chapter and verse where God explicitly states we don't bring the end upon ourselves as God "said". The concern is legitimate for those who emphasize stewardship.

There's also a very large space between "things as they are now" and "The End" that can hold a wide range of scenarios, some of which could be quite unpleasant.

EDIT: MJ, I think you have a pic of a hound that would be particularly apt here.

TheFly77

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321831#Comment_1321831

On a forum full with theologians I could expect some theological remarks, but as I stated in my question, I would be more interested in a genuine response from the side of Logos itself and not so much in a debate on environmental issues/opinions here.

Lew Worthington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321834#Comment_1321834

Planet health is always a valid concern. I'd love to know how energy consumption with any server side (or client side, but we can't run our own tests for the former) functions stack up against other things within Logos (indexing, for example) and outside of Logos (big data reports, ChatGPT, MMORPGs, etc.). For that matter, I know a man who ran detailed energy consumption tests comparing Intel and AMD and his conclusion was that one of them (I won't say which) will average over $100 more energy consumption per year than the other based on current utility costs.

The data may be out there to compare, and it's a fair conversation to have.

Milkman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321834#Comment_1321834

Nice one and legit. [:D]

mm.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321825#Comment_1321825

The planet is not going to end due to AI 🤖 consumption or a hole in the ozone layer; it will end when God says it will end.

Hmmm... I need a chapter and verse where God explicitly states we don't bring the end upon ourselves as God "said". The concern is legitimate for those who emphasize stewardship.

2 Peter 3 is one among many, along with Matthew 24:36. God will destroy when he decides it’s the right time. I get your stewarship concept, but the flood didn’t come for lack of stewardship neither will the fire mentioned in 2 Peter 3. It’s the sinfulness of humanity that will bring the end when God decides to come and judge the world. I love it when you go off on a tangent 😂

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321834#Comment_1321834

On a forum full with theologians I could expect some theological remarks, but as I stated in my question, I would be more interested in a genuine response from the side of Logos itself and not so much in a debate on environmental issues/opinions here.

If you really had a genuine concern then a genuine response would be fitting, but you don’t. You’re just going off on a trail that merits no response (like most people who believe in conspiracy theories about the USA creating storms, hurricanes, G5 etc.). The world will not end or become a wasteland just because we are using all of our Logos AI 🤖 credits 😂 Be a good steward of your credits and you’ll probably be doing your part in saving the world. Or maybe go plant a tree like I did last weekend and I’m still sore and that really concerns me 😂

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321835#Comment_1321835

Planet health is always a valid concern. I'd love to know how energy consumption with any server side (or client side, but we can't run our own tests for the former) functions stack up against other things within Logos (indexing, for example) and outside of Logos (big data reports, ChatGPT, MMORPGs, etc.). For that matter, I know a man who ran detailed energy consumption tests comparing Intel and AMD and his conclusion was that one of them (I won't say which) will average over $100 more energy consumption per year than the other based on current utility costs.

The data may be out there to compare, and it's a fair conversation to have.

Just my opinion but is not a fair conversation. Creation has been groaning to be redeemed and it will be in due time. So creation is not groaning more because we’re using AI credits and I’m sure Logos/FL doesn’t care either because if they did they would’ve chosen to go out of business instead of going the subscription route 😂 Anyway, there are more important things to worry about and ”energy consumption” is not on my list neither on Logos’s list; I can assure AND reassured you that 😉

DAL

TheFly77

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321901#Comment_1321901

If you really had a genuine concern then a genuine response would be fitting, but you don’t. You’re just going off on a trail that merits no response (like most people who believe in conspiracy theories about the USA creating storms, hurricanes, G5 etc.). The world will not end or become a wasteland just because we are using all of our Logos AI 🤖 credits 😂 Be a good steward of your credits and you’ll probably be doing your part in saving the world. Or maybe go plant a tree like I did last weekend and I’m still sore and that really concerns me 😂

DAL

My only question is: why? Why are you judging my genuine intent? Who are you to do that? Why are you hijacking a thread with a question that I was asking Logos for a reply for, and not you? Why are you neglecting my repeated request to not make this a theological debate?

I am really disappointed in what is happening here in this thread now.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321915#Comment_1321915

My only question is: why? Why are you judging my genuine intent? Who are you to do that? Why are you hijacking a thread with a question that I was asking Logos for a reply for, and not you? Why are you neglecting my repeated request to not make this a theological debate?

I am really disappointed in what is happening here in this thread now.

This is a Logos user forum, so you are likely to get Logos forum user perspectives. If you want to get only Logos leadership feedback, I suggest you contact Logos leadership directly.

Mark Barnes (Logos)

How is Logos dealing with sustainability in this regard, and ensuring that the use of AI is balanced with caring for our planet?

While the use of AI brings with it several new ethical considerations, we have several ways of seeking to maintain this particular balance:

Putting the user in control of when to (and when not to) use AI.
Making it clear to the user when a particular action will use AI, and not executing AI automatically.
Whenever possible, we use smaller and lighter-weight models that have relatively low power consumption.
We limit the amount of AI usage per user using the AI credit system.

Lew Worthington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321958#Comment_1321958

I love it, Mark. Thank you for sharing.

TheFly77

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321958#Comment_1321958

Thanks Mark for this answer.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321915#Comment_1321915

My only question is: why?

...because it is a hot topic.

On the one side there are those who sincerely find the environmental concerns to be a matter of deep importance and to have theological implications. On the other side there are those who not only don't, they find the whole idea of anthropocentric climate change to be either myth or a marxist conspiracy. That can carry over even to thoughts on basic stewardship (and can in both directions).

So if you ask a question from either perspective and assume everyone else thinks like you, you are going to be disappointed in a few of the replies.

You certainly should ask the question and it deserves a response. But you should also thicken up the skin a bit when asking a question about a topic like this (or Calvinism, or eschatology, or RC vs Protestantism, or ESS, or...........). It's a public forum and a given that many others here don't think like you do or like I do.

Like another reply suggested, I do think this was much more appropriately addressed to Logos admin rather than here on a public forum, where it is guaranteed to generate as much heat as light. [Y]

TheFly77

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321996#Comment_1321996

But you should also thicken up the skin a bit when asking a question about a topic like this

No I dont. I would expect on a forum like this that users are being respected as we are supposed to share some basic Christian values. Instead I am being told that my genuine concern isn't by someone who doesn't even know who I am. That is not respectful. We might differ in opinions, but we should use valid argumentation for that and not doubt others intentions. But I will end it here.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321996#Comment_1321996

Like another reply suggested, I do think this was much more appropriately addressed to Logos admin rather than here on a public forum, where it is guaranteed to generate as much heat as light

I disagree as it is a topic where the answer from Logos is important to many people. I don't want Logos to have the overhead of answering the question many times nor the uncertainty of many users too shy to ask Logos. I agree that there are still Logos users who feel obligated to display their eisegesis skills on such questions but I'd much rather they be reined in than the people asking legitimate questions.

As for myth, Marxism, anthropocentric climate change ... none of these topics belong in the forums. Merely asking a question that concerns climate change and Logos, may have some implications but they don't suddenly open the door to such OT debates even if they are "hot topics". I have long since learned that much of the forums are situated in social circumstances where the "hot topics" are different than in my social circumstances.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321915#Comment_1321915

I am really disappointed in what is happening here in this thread now.

You should be. The forums have been particularly contentious the last few weeks - I got called out for providing a definition related to online posts. But with the release behind us and the release receiving a generally positive reception, we should get back to normal soon. In that normal, your post would not be misconstrued except if one a handful of people was having a bad day.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321915#Comment_1321915

If you really had a genuine concern then a genuine response would be fitting, but you don’t. You’re just going off on a trail that merits no response (like most people who believe in conspiracy theories about the USA creating storms, hurricanes, G5 etc.). The world will not end or become a wasteland just because we are using all of our Logos AI 🤖 credits 😂 Be a good steward of your credits and you’ll probably be doing your part in saving the world. Or maybe go plant a tree like I did last weekend and I’m still sore and that really concerns me 😂

DAL

My only question is: why? Why are you judging my genuine intent? Who are you to do that? Why are you hijacking a thread with a question that I was asking Logos for a reply for, and not you? Why are you neglecting my repeated request to not make this a theological debate?

I am really disappointed in what is happening here in this thread now.

Nobody is judging you! In fact, Mark’s answer is exactly the answer I was going to give you, because as a business that’s exactly what they would say 😂

Chill, don’t be disappointed, the world will be fine 😉

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321952#Comment_1321952

My only question is: why? Why are you judging my genuine intent? Who are you to do that? Why are you hijacking a thread with a question that I was asking Logos for a reply for, and not you? Why are you neglecting my repeated request to not make this a theological debate?

I am really disappointed in what is happening here in this thread now.

This is a Logos user forum, so you are likely to get Logos forum user perspectives. If you want to get only Logos leadership feedback, I suggest you contact Logos leadership directly.

Thank you! Finally someone is being realistic 👏

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321958#Comment_1321958

Whenever possible, we use smaller and lighter-weight models that have relatively low power consumption.

Last summer I've bought a laptop with NPU (neural processing unit).

Could utilizing the local NPU reduce the power consumption?

And I guess it should not eat my AI credit while using the local NPU?.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322219#Comment_1322219

Whenever possible, we use smaller and lighter-weight models that have relatively low power consumption.

Last summer I've bought a laptop with NPU (neural processing unit).

Could utilizing the local NPU reduce the power consumption?

And I guess it should not eat my AI credit while using the local NPU?.

I was almost to ask that same question. Wondering?

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322219#Comment_1322219

Could utilizing the local NPU reduce the power consumption?

It's an interesting suggestion, but not one we're likely to implement any time soon:

Running LLM models locally often requires the highest-end hardware, which only a small percentage of our users have
Most frontier models are not even available to run locally, so we'd have to trade off for worse results from a lesser model
Models are very large to download and update; you'd probably never "pay back" the costs of downloading and running it locally, even with extremely high AI usage

Kiyah

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322020#Comment_1322020

we should get back to normal soon.

I appreciate your optimism even if I don't share it. lol

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322421#Comment_1322421

Could utilizing the local NPU reduce the power consumption?

It's an interesting suggestion, but not one we're likely to implement any time soon:

Running LLM models locally often requires the highest-end hardware, which only a small percentage of our users have

Most frontier models are not even available to run locally, so we'd have to trade off for worse results from a lesser model

Models are very large to download and update; you'd probably never "pay back" the costs of downloading and running it locally, even with extremely high AI usage

Meanwhile, they all keep filling up their gas tanks to go to work 😂

DAL

David Wanat

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321901#Comment_1321901

If you really had a genuine concern then a genuine response would be fitting, but you don’t. You’re just going off on a trail that merits no response

…which leads to the question, “then why did you respond?”

Antony Brennan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322443#Comment_1322443

Emergency! Emergency! Remain in your seats!

Thread officially off the rails.

Clear the area

MWW

How is Logos dealing with sustainability in this regard, and ensuring that the use of AI is balanced with caring for our planet?

The quick responses that AI provides allows Bible students everywhere to close their lids and turn off their lights quicker. So I'm thinking its a wash. 😌

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322039#Comment_1322039

The thread may have stayed on the rails had the OP not posted the question/comment in a way that alludes to one view on a hotly debated subject as factual.... I understand why someone who holds to the view that DAL expressed would respond.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322443#Comment_1322443

If you really had a genuine concern then a genuine response would be fitting, but you don’t. You’re just going off on a trail that merits no response

…which leads to the question, “then why did you respond?”

To let him know there’s nothing to worry about 😉 I guess you didn’t read my initial post.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322450#Comment_1322450

Emergency! Emergency! Remain in your seats!

Thread officially off the rails.

Clear the area

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1321825#Comment_1321825

Hmmm... I need a chapter and verse where God explicitly states we don't bring the end upon ourselves as God "said". The concern is legitimate for those who emphasize stewardship.

"A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever." (Ecc 1:4 ESV)

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322510#Comment_1322510

This mentions efficiency in the local processing, although it does not provide any measured / calculated data:

"As AI continues to advance, edge computing — processing data locally on devices rather than relying on centralized cloud servers — has gained prominence. This shift enhances real-time responsiveness, data privacy, and overall efficiency."

From this article, although it does not mention Intel Ultra NPU:

https://www.elektormagazine.com/articles/ai-accelerators-desktop-versus-embedded-accelerators

*****

I have accumulated more than 9000 resources/books/interlinears/whatever and it would nice if the text as such could be accessible for my own tests. Maybe I could do the programming myself, or maybe some "lite" third party software could be available. There could be some small group within Logos users (and co-operation with universities) doing that, while Logos could provide some semiofficial support.

******

Regarding to the theological side, I think that God will not destroy the world (Gen 8:21), but unfortunately we have the capability to do it ourselves. Secularly thinking, the human species may become extinct, but the evolution may produce a species which is wiser and more peaceful than we.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1322551#Comment_1322551

I have accumulated more than 9000 resources/books/interlinears/whatever and it would nice if the text as such could be accessible for my own tests. Maybe I could do the programming myself, or maybe some "lite" third party software could be available. There could be some small group within Logos users (and co-operation with universities) doing that, while Logos could provide some semiofficial support.

Technology and programming seem within reach. Space is an easily within-reach factor, if we guestimate something like an 8GB LLM per 10,000 books. Indexing is another story. Time to do it and collaboration are hurdles, but I can imagine it being possible.