Logos closes reseller channels
Comments
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Philip Spitzer said:Kenneth Shawver said:
Philippians 2:1414 Do all things zwithout 4complaining and adisputing,
Who's complaining???
and here all this time I thought that verse said " Do all things without champagne and dissipation"
I'll drink to that.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Don't buy from retailers period! I had the Scholar's Gold version 3 which I got from Logos and then went ahead and bought Baker's NT commentary by William Hendricksen & Simon Kistemaker as an add on from Christianbook.com back in October of 2009 only to find out that that set came with my upgrade to Platinum LE when L4 was released in November. When I asked the sales person if I could get a better discount on my upgrade due to the fact that I had just purchased Baker's NT commentary from Christianbook.com he said he couldn't give me any credit because I had not purchase the set from Logos. If I had known that I would have purchase all of my add ons from Logos even if they are a little bit more expensive [the reason I bought the set from christianbook was because it was $85 bucks, compared to $159 from Logos -- that's a $74.95 difference!].
Now, here I am trying to sell the Baker's NT commentary CD-ROM I got from Christianbook.com because I already own it through my Logos upgrade to Platinum. Yes, Logos has always claimed they won't make you buy the same book twice [and they do honor that] but back then they should've let us know that that only applies to products purchased through them and not retailers.
In the end, I learned my lesson and now I only purchase through Logos [taking advantage of their payment plan]. And I'm also confident that I'll be able to sell the CD-ROM I got from Christianbook.com, it's only a matter of time until I get my money back so I can purchase the Bible Expositor's Commentary as an add on or some other books. So don't worry, I'm not complaining, I'm just stating facts and thank God there's Logos 4! Great tool I'm proud to show and spread the word about!
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Douglas Alvarenga said:
Don't buy from retailers period!
. . . but consider buying from a private reseller named Doug, who is a very nice gentleman who will give you a good deal! [:P]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Exactly! I'm gonna lose some money, but I'm going to resell Baker's NT CD-ROM for $60 considering the fact that the person will have to pay his/her $20 bucks license transfer fee... ;-)
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Bob, you make the point about the internet, and its effects on business. And though I agree with the communications piece, I strongly disagree with the Affiliate Program being shut down.
If you don't have enough margin in your products to allow affiliates to help you market, and process those affiliate payouts, your pricing model must be messed up. (contrary e.g. - Amazon's success)You may have had limited success in the past, but Christian efforts are often years behind the secular world. I think Logos would be surprised how many sales they would receive of Logos Software, or even subscriptions to Bible Study Magazine, in the same way many "secular" companies are experiencing now.
I also think Logos should employ the fixed pricing model (like Apple, etc.) so that affiliates or resellers all sell the products at the same price, but you simply share the revenue with those helping you sell the product.
Trying to sell your product alone is a losing proposition. Show me one successful company that doesn't sell their product through resellers of some kind.
Thanks for the time.
Until We're All Home,
Walter0 -
WalterJohnson said:
Trying to sell your product alone is a losing proposition.
Hi Walter, Welcome to the forums.
If you have read this thread from the beginning, I am sure you've seen the reasons Bob gave for this decision. Many pros and cons have been brought up. The question of taxes, tarrifs and shipping costs is certainly a factor in each foreign market. And each market differs a bit from the others.
Look at this recent blog for a good snapshot of the Logos user base. "How to Get Logos Support at 1:30 AM"
http://blog.logos.com/mt-cgi/mt-search.cgi?search=How+to+Get+Logos+Support+at+1%3A30+AM+&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20I agree it would be helpful to have a local representative "on the ground" in each country serviced. It would be a wonderful service if you could provide that function in your locale. Logos has an Ambassador program to reward individuals who help others buy into Logos. See here for info: http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/03/become_a_logos_ambassador.html
I don't think Logos is trying to sell their product alone. There has got to be some balanced solution that will likely include the Ambassadors Program, online sales, regional representatives and seminars. I would love to travel the world for Logos, but alas, I am still a novice with Logos 4.0.
But I can dream, can't I? [Y] [H] [ap] [ip]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I am not trying to speak to sales outside the US... I am talking about US Sales. I see no good reason to NOT use resellers and to NOT have an Affiliate program in the United States, if you force pricing to be the same for all resellers and Affiliates. Living without these is a very limited vision.
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WalterJohnson said:
I am not trying to speak to sales outside the US... I am talking about US Sales. I see no good reason to NOT use resellers and to NOT have an Affiliate program in the United States, if you force pricing to be the same for all resellers and Affiliates. Living without these is a very limited vision.
Here's good reason not to use them: Direct from Dell: Strategies that Revolutionized an Industry (Collins Business Essentials)
. You don't find Dell computers at reseller locations.
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Michael Aubrey said:WalterJohnson said:
I am not trying to speak to sales outside the US... I am talking about US Sales. I see no good reason to NOT use resellers and to NOT have an Affiliate program in the United States, if you force pricing to be the same for all resellers and Affiliates. Living without these is a very limited vision.
Here's good reason not to use them: Direct from Dell: Strategies that Revolutionized an Industry (Collins Business Essentials)
That book is dated. See: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Dell-i17R-2084-OBK/14335606
[:D]
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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You're honestly comparing Dell's choices of going at it alone to Logos? LOL...
Dell spent 836 million dollars on advertising in 2007 (quickest figure I could find)
http://austin.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2009/05/04/story1.html
The point I am making is that an affiliate program costs next to nothing to run and the benefits far outweigh the risks and costs. There's no reason not to do it, especially in such s niche market as Christianity in general. I could run the affiliate program myself and bring in over a million in revenue in the next year or two.
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WalterJohnson said:
I could run the affiliate program myself and bring in over a million in revenue in the next year or two.
A million is small change in the current picture. I do not know if Bob will release sales figures at the end of the year but I am confident this is by far the best year Logos has ever had. Due in part to direct sales.
WalterJohnson said:I am not trying to speak to sales outside the US... I am talking about US Sales.
The current marketing plan makes even more sense in the United States. (We will ignore the fact Bob mentioned about software loss, aka "theft", from retailers. Very common in the USA.)
My previous post mentions a balance among four different endeavors: the Ambassadors Program, online sales, regional representatives and seminars. All of these have already been implemented in the USA. The admonition to "not muzzle the ox whilst he is treading the grain" did not mandate keeping an ox just to feed him, if you have no use for the ox. Logos exists to produce and sell Bible software. By cutting out retailers Logos can have tighter control on quality, service and the company's reputation. I was not happy to see the boxes disappear from the shelves but I believe it has been for the best, all things considered.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Then cut out retailers... but an Affiliate program would be much better than the "Encyclopedia Salesman" approach of the Ambassador program. It would have many, many people out their advertising the same price, but receiving a commission for spreading the word about the software... in this tremendous online marketplace.
And to put down an ADDITIONAL million in revenue (minus my commission) is just ridiculous.... And what about 1,000 Affiliates bringing in an average of 50,000 in revenue in a year... That's 50,000,000... Ringing any bells yet?
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WalterJohnson said:
It would have many, many people out their advertising the same price, but receiving a commission for spreading the word about the software...
We already have that without high commissions. So change the name from Ambassador to Affiliate if it motivates you more. Logos has set the selling price and the commissions they are willing to pay. Word of mouth and general exposure will ensure exponential growth in sales. The ever expanding library of resources will garner new users. There are many who will proselytize without any greater financial incentive than is currently being offered. I just want my family and friends to know about this good thing (Logos) I have discovered.
Bob Pritchett did not accidentally pilot the Logos company into great success. He has shown he has the talent to make necessary adjustments along the way to succeed. If a different marketing model is needed, Bob, Dale & Dan will be right on it.
Do a little experiment with the search engines. See how many hits you get with differenty worded searches about Logos Bible software. This company has no peers.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Michael Aubrey said:WalterJohnson said:
I am not trying to speak to sales outside the US... I am talking about US Sales. I see no good reason to NOT use resellers and to NOT have an Affiliate program in the United States, if you force pricing to be the same for all resellers and Affiliates. Living without these is a very limited vision.
Here's good reason not to use them: Direct from Dell: Strategies that Revolutionized an Industry (Collins Business Essentials)
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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WalterJohnson said:
Then cut out retailers... but an Affiliate program would be much better...
If you want to sell Logos software, why not just apply for a job? http://www.logos.com/jobs
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George... I was thinking the exact same thing... you beat me to it... lol...
Chris... you are missing the point, or you're just being sarcastic, which is the unfortunate standard Christian response to a debate or discussion that involves conflict of any kind.
Logos is a great company, with amazing software, but no one has given me a good reason NOT to run an affiliate program. Bloggers would use it, churches would use it, denominational entities would use it, podcasters would use it... etc...
I would love to be a part of a Logos affiliate program, and I think it could and would be successful.0 -
WalterJohnson said:
Chris... you are missing the point, or you're just being sarcastic, which is the unfortunate standard Christian response to a debate or discussion that involves conflict of any kind.
I don't think Chris was being sarcastic in his post but I will leave it to him to clarify his intent. If you really believe sarcasm is the standard Christian response you have been missing a lot of honest, needed advice in life. I promise not to be sarcastic in this post.
WalterJohnson said:Logos is a great company, with amazing software, but no one has given me a good reason NOT to run an affiliate program.
Yes, all this is true. And Logos got to this point without an affiliate program. Here is a GOOD reason not to start that now. Bob Pritchett (and a few others) invested years of hard work to build Logos into the great company you admire. Bob even wrote a book where he shares valuable lessons he has learned along the way.
"Fire Someone Today: And Other Surprising Tactics for Making Your Business a Success" http://www.logos.com/products/details/3794 .
Chapter 10 of the book is titled "Profit Is Why You Are in Business." The Logos Corporation went through an Initial Public Offering that Bob reversed at the last moment. You'd have to agree an IPO brings in significantly more cash into the company than an "affiliate" program. By bailing out of the IPO (at no small cost) Bob probably saved his company.
WalterJohnson said:Bloggers would use it, churches would use it, denominational entities would use it, podcasters would use it... etc...I would love to be a part of a Logos affiliate program, and I think it could and would be successful.
Blogger, churches, seminaries etc...already use Logos. There is a de facto affiliate program in place. It is called satisfied Logos users. They can't seem to quit telling others about Logos. [:D] Now that "parade day" has arrived and the hard workers start to enjoy the fruits of their labors, why invite everyone else to jump on board? Oh, amd I bet you and George DELL goes bankrupt before Logos... Remember GM? I retired from there
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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WalterJohnson said:
Bob, you make the point about the internet, and its effects on business. And though I agree with the communications piece, I strongly disagree with the Affiliate Program being shut down.
If you don't have enough margin in your products to allow affiliates to help you market, and process those affiliate payouts, your pricing model must be messed up. (contrary e.g. - Amazon's success)
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Trying to sell your product alone is a losing proposition. Show me one successful company that doesn't sell their product through resellers of some kind.
Walter, you have a good idea but it is being shot down for equally good reasons. I think the problem is people are talking past each other because of the conflation of two terms: reseller and affiliate. Though Logos called its reseller program the "Affiliate Program" it actually never had an "affiliate" program such as what Amazon.com has. Amazon, to my knowledge, does not use "resellers" of the sort that Logos used to use -- that is, separate bricks-and-mortar or dot-com entities which were licensed to sell Logos products such that they got a cut of the price and Logos got the rest. What Amazon.com's affiliate program does is allow people to get a cut of the sales price by referring buyers to Amazon's own website to close the deal. Amazon has full control over the quality of the buying experience this way. That is what Logos aims to maintain as well as customer service for returns and upgrades (as Matthew Jones pointed out in one of his posts).
If what you are asking for something more along the lines of Amazon.com's affiliate program, then you're not asking for Logos to reinstate something that it shut down, you're asking for a new thing, and that is a legitimate request. And perhaps Logos might consider it if you clarified that that's what you're asking for rather than railing at them for shutting down something that really was not working.
Nonetheless, I'm not convinced you're correct that Logos's current approach is a "losing proposition" -- Logos had such a bounty year last year with this new approach that they paid us shareholders our first ever dividend, and boy it was a welcome surprise! [:)] I can say no more since the company is privately held, so earnings reports are not public. But let's just say I'm not too worried about the cost of all the pre-pubs sitting in my queue right now... [;)]
Don't worry about whether Logos is going to be successful or not. Logos plants, God gives the increase. And Logos makes good business decisions, and learns from its mistakes, as far as I've been able to observe for the 18 years I've been associated with the company.
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WalterJohnson said:Chris Roberts said:
If you want to sell Logos software, why not just apply for a job? http://www.logos.com/jobs
Chris... you are missing the point, or you're just being sarcastic
Maybe Chris was being somewhat sarcastic, but he has a point, however rather than directing you to work for the company (in its in-house sales force), he should have pointed to the existing Ambassadors program, which nobody has done for you directly yet: http://www.logos.com/ambassador. See more details here. See also David Buckham's discussion of his experience as a Logos Ambassador. Is this not pretty much what you're asking for? Or maybe not. Read on...
WalterJohnson said:no one has given me a good reason NOT to run an affiliate program. Bloggers would use it, churches would use it, denominational entities would use it, podcasters would use it... etc...
Again, this is more along the lines of Amazon's affiliate program, which if that is what you're asking for then indeed, I see no reason not to run it apart from the fact that they don't apparently need to right now. They're raking in the bucks as is, and were until recently overwhelmed with how many new customers they have been getting simply through their own advertising efforts and word-of-mouth. Their customer support call lines were swamped for months and have only recently gotten back to a more normal response time. An affiliate program such as this just for new books would be a wonderful idea and wouldn't add to their support costs at all (or very little, compared to how much extra revenue it would bring in), and I'd be supportive of it. However I don't think it would be a good idea for getting Logos new customers via base packages, for some of the reasons others have mentioned above.
So, please clarify: which is it you're asking for? Something like the Ambassadors program? Something like the Amazon.com affiliate program which gives people a kickback if a click-through from their link ends up getting converted to a sale on Logos's website? And if the latter, are you asking for it to bring in new customers with base packages or just for individual books/collections?
BTW, please be patient with people who take you to task over your suggestion. Consider first that maybe they simply don't understand what you're trying to communicate or misread your attitude; try to say it more clearly and thoroughly and gently rather than responding in kind with another repartee. Civil discourse gets people further towards their goals, and we all become a better online community here for it, and do Logos more good that way, too, by not scaring off prospective customers with the way we treat each other on the forums.
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Rosie Perera said:
he should have pointed to the existing Ambassadors program, which nobody has done for you directly yet
Not so Rosie. I know you just got back and probably have my posts set to "ignore" in the beta testing of the new forum software....[:O]
But I did tell Walter (3x) about the Ambassador program and provided the link:
Matthew C Jones said:WalterJohnson said:Trying to sell your product alone is a losing proposition.
Hi Walter, Welcome to the forums.
If you have read this thread from the beginning, I am sure you've seen the reasons Bob gave for this decision. Many pros and cons have been brought up. The question of taxes, tarrifs and shipping costs is certainly a factor in each foreign market. And each market differs a bit from the others.
Look at this recent blog for a good snapshot of the Logos user base. "How to Get Logos Support at 1:30 AM"
http://blog.logos.com/mt-cgi/mt-search.cgi?search=How+to+Get+Logos+Support+at+1%3A30+AM+&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20I agree it would be helpful to have a local representative "on the ground" in each country serviced. It would be a wonderful service if you could provide that function in your locale. Logos has an Ambassador program to reward individuals who help others buy into Logos. See here for info: http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/03/become_a_logos_ambassador.html
I don't think Logos is trying to sell their product alone. There has got to be some balanced solution that will likely include the Ambassadors Program, online sales, regional representatives and seminars. I would love to travel the world for Logos, but alas, I am still a novice with Logos 4.0.
But I can dream, can't I?
Walter wants to help Bob get rich quick with networking. And if you've read Bob's book, you already know what he thinks of sharing control with others (Chapter 3 "Nobody Loves Your Baby Like You Do".)
Welcome back, Rosie
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Why not drop the subject. Really, everybody is looking stupid and immature trying to help a close minded person understand something that he just doesn't want to understand. The reason why logos closed the reseller channels is very simple -- THE BOSS (Bob) DOESN'T WANT THEM ANYMORE! You can't force the guy to go back to something he just doesn't WANT for his business. That's it! If walter or anybody else doesn't want to accept it, then so be it, but there's no reason why everybody should jump and post comment after comment after comment on a subject that the guy is totally closed minded about. He wants to have it his own way -- GUESS WHAT? HE'S NOT THE BOSS! So if he doesn't like it, he can go and buy software somewhere else.
And please, I don't want to get your "That's not Christian of you to say" because guess what? IT IS VERY CHRISTIAN -- so save it -- Jesus was blunt, Paul was too and the reality is that sometimes you have to be blunt and straight forward to stop stubborn people on their tracks. Now, just one clarification - THE CAPITAL LETTERS DO NOT MEAN I'M SCREAMING they're just here (in this context) for the sake of EMPHASIS.
Blessings!
Giovanni
Ps. Mr. Bob, don't listen to this guy complains. Obviously he doesn't know how to run a business. You're the man, it's your baby, so take care of it YOUR WAY! Blessings Brother!
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A simple reality in business as in much of life that is all too easy to forget: There is seldom if ever just one "right" way to do things. I'm all for people expressing their opinions, and I firmly believe that Bob welcomes that and encourages that, as long as we remember and respect one thing... that it is just our *opinion.* There is no one right (or wrong) model for sales in any business, just as there's not one right way to raise your kid or grow a church (basic Biblical principles not withstanding). Walter and others - thanks for sharing your opinion on this matter with everyone (and Bob). Now please, everyone, keep moving along... nothing to see here.
Steve R.
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Giovanni Baggio said:
Ps. Mr. Bob, don't listen to this guy complains. Obviously he doesn't know how to run a business. You're the man, it's your baby, so take care of it YOUR WAY! Blessings Brother!
Of course, Bob could hire him then carry out his own admonition to "fire someone today." [6]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Matthew C Jones said:Rosie Perera said:
he should have pointed to the existing Ambassadors program, which nobody has done for you directly yet
Not so Rosie. I know you just got back and probably have my posts set to "ignore" in the beta testing of the new forum software....
But I did tell Walter (3x) about the Ambassador program and provided the link:
Ah, but I did read all your posts and thought they were among the best in this thread. And I was alluding indirectly to your posting of a link to a blog post which in turn linked to the Ambassador program page. I was providing the direct link to the Ambassador program page, which nobody else had done thus far. However, if he wasn't inclined to investigate this program, I doubt my helping him out there was going to make much difference, as Giovanni rightly points out. I've received my flogging from Giovanni and can now go back to other more important matters...
And no, I'm not privy to any new forum software in beta testing. I wish! New logos.com in beta would be even better. [:)]
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Rosie Perera said:
I was providing the direct link to the Ambassador program page, which nobody else had done thus far
If Walter could not follow my active link to the blog entry & subsequently the Ambassador's program, he would be of little benefit to Logos in setting up a networked "affiliate" program. I would like to know how Walter implemented the newtork model in his own multi-million dollar company.
George Somsel said:Of course, Bob could hire him then carry out his own admonition to "fire someone today."
touché .
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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This is because the boss wants to be able to give a 20% discount down to their MAP, which was really everyone else's everyday price.
Brian Whalen
http://www.mcnazarene.com
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And in this electronic age when most of us are turning to blogging and social networking to share our beliefs and ideas while building the written communication skill to publish our works. Blogging is the perfect venue for affiliate marketing and it helps cover the costs of the hosting. I am an experienced affiliate and am fully in love with Logos. I would love to see an affiliate program for Logos.
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William Robert Hughes said:
And in this electronic age when most of us are turning to blogging and social networking to share our beliefs and ideas while building the written communication skill to publish our works. Blogging is the perfect venue for affiliate marketing and it helps cover the costs of the hosting. I am an experienced affiliate and am fully in love with Logos. I would love to see an affiliate program for Logos.
William, this is a very old thread. You're much better served starting a new thread.
That said, Logos once had an affiliate program and took note of its actual effectiveness. They have since moved on to offering real jobs. [;)]
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0
