The Future of Logos 4

Y'all:

I saw the announcement of the web based interface several days ago, and I have some questions about the future of Logos 4 in light of this announcement. Let me put a few pieces together here, and see if this makes any sense.

1. Bob has repeatedly said that he believes the future is "the cloud," so he's working to bring Logos completely within "the cloud." It's apparent that this is driving the software more and more towards a constantly tethered package.

2. Bob has repeatedly refused to allow anyone to synchronize different pieces of data, citing increased technical support costs. So it's apparent that technical support costs drive a lot of the decisions being made at Logos.

Now, here's my question: Is this the first step in the death knell of downloadable, "run on my computer," Logos? I would honestly like a clear statement of direction from Logos.

Are the desktop versions of Logos, usable without a connection to the Internet, a thing of the past, while the future is this web only based interface? Is the company's drive towards 'the cloud" so strong that you are moving towards a "no software on your local machine" future?

I think this has major implications for the investments people have in the software, and the investments they are willing to make, so I'd like Bob, or someone from the company, to go on record with their thoughts on this. If there weren't such a clear drive towards "cloud computing" within Logos, it wouldn't be an issue that needs to be addressed, but cloud computing is clearly designed around a very thin client, with all the power and data being on the server. A lot of things seem to indicate this might be the ultimate direction Logos is going.

Russ

P.S. And yes, I know they are still developing features, and are just releasing the MAC version, but the question is the long term direction, rather than the immediate direction; the current software pushes could well be a "stopover" until Logos gets where it really wants to be, which is why I'm asking for clarification.

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Milford Charles Murray

^{Peace to you, Dear Brother *smile*}

^{I truly wish you well, but …………………. Frankly, I absolutely question, and feel I cannot accept, the several presuppositions and premises that are the substance of your post. I think you are “forcing” some of the so-called “pieces” into a pre-conceived puzzle of your own making.}

¹prem•ise also pre•miss \ˈpre-məs\ noun

[in sense 1, from Middle English premisse, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin praemissa, from Latin, feminine of praemissus, past participle of praemittere to place ahead, from prae- pre- + mittere to send; in other senses, from Middle English premisses, from Medieval Latin praemissa, from Latin, neuter plural of praemissus] 14th century

1 a : a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference specifically : either of the first two propositions of a syllogism from which the conclusion is drawn

b : something assumed or taken for granted : presupposition

Ward Walker

I'm not aware of the web announcement...can someone provide a link? Tks

Mark Barnes

The 'announcement' was just about Biblia.com a few days ago.

Online Access to
Your Library at Biblia.com

Introducing Biblia.com: a super-simple web-based platform for
reading the Bible online—plus access to much of the content in your
Logos 4 library!

What makes Biblia.com so special?

1. Biblia.com is simple and easy to
use.

Biblia.com is simple and clean. It has an
easy-to-use interface. It’s designed for the ultimate Bible-reading
experience on the web.

2. Biblia.com provides powerful
web-based Bible study.

Biblia.com is a powerful web-based Bible.

Need to link to a Bible verse? Just type http://biblia.com/bible/jn3.16

Want to see the verse in context, or side-by-side with a commentary?
Just click the “more >>” link and the single-passage display turns
into a two-pane viewer where you can scroll through the Bible and
thousands of other books from your Logos library.

You can even link directly to a book in your library: http://biblia.com/books/summbblnt/Jn3

Need to search? Biblia.com has the power of
the Logos 4 search engine, running on the web.

It's that simple.

3. Biblia.com gives you access to
thousands of resources online.

If you're a Logos 4 user, you can access much of your library online,
complete with synchronization of “last read” position between Logos 4,
the iPhone/iPad, and Biblia.com! (The list of
books available online is subject to publisher permission, as with
availability through mobile applications.)

4. Biblia.com gives you another way to
access your books.

With shared licenses between Logos 4 for Mac, Windows, iPhone, iPad,
Mobile Web, and now Biblia.com, you can access
your books on the platform you're most comfortable with.

5. Biblia.com is free to use today.

Biblia.com is free for you to access right now.
Several books and Bibles are available right for anyone to use. If
you’re a Logos 4 user, you can access much of your library online right
now.

What are you waiting for? Give it a try!

http://www.biblia.com

spitzerpl

Depends on what you mean by long term. My non-insider supposition is 10 years from now we will still have a downloadable, work offline-able, desktop version of Logos. I wouldn't even venture to guess beyond that. Logos can't even tell you what computers will be like 10 years from now, which they would need to be able to tell you what their methods of delivery will be 10 years from now.

Mark Barnes

Russ,

This has been discussed endlessly. He's been much clearer than most CEOs about the direction of Logos. As you know, this post answers all the questions you have asked above (may be not to your satisfaction, but all the information they can give, they have given): http://community.logos.com/forums/t/17936.aspx

"Logos was a desktop only app, and it's moving towards being a cloud app.
It isn't there yet, and may be a hybrid for a long time, or even
forever."

Russ White

This has been discussed endlessly. He's been much clearer than most CEOs about the direction of Logos. As you know, this post answers all the questions you have asked above (may be not to your satisfaction, but all the information they can give, they have given): http://community.logos.com/forums/t/17936.aspx
"Logos was a desktop only app, and it's moving towards being a cloud app.
It isn't there yet, and may be a hybrid for a long time, or even
forever."

But what does a "cloud app" mean, in Bob's mind? Something that's completely based on the 'web, or something that has a downloadable component? The indication is, from Bob's earlier postings, that this means a completely web based application --no download at all. This would make sense in his insistence not to provide any sort of synchronization control, which is why I think that piece fits into the puzzle. What I'd like is some form of clear statement. It makes a huge difference in whether or not I continue investing in this software --if Logos is just going to become a web based service, then it's probably not worth continuing to invest in resources, as just about anyone can provide web based resources (Galaxy, for instance, provides a web based resource for many of the journals).

For the person who said I'm not reading the signs right --again, what I'm asking for is clarity. If I believed I knew, I wouldn't ask.

And no, I don't expect Bob to know what computers will look like 10 years from now. OTOH, Bob clearly has a plan, and that plan is predicated on what he thinks computers will look like 10 years from now. So again, some clarity would be nice.

:-)

Russ

DMB

Well, I saw this whole issue coming the day Bob announced L4 on the Logos blog. That morning, when I commented in a concerned way, he invited me to call, which I did and he explained some of the logic. Logos' subsequent 'path' has pretty much followed that first day, and my path has similarly been to always buy the 'CD' if possible, since L3 will be the final 'unteathered' world. Indeed, this week, the absolutely great deal on Hermeneia for Logos is 'Download', and so I'll be getting my version from the publisher (CD based). I would far prefer the bucks to go to Logos to support more 'stuff' for users. But Bob has a goal in mind, and I have approx 20 years ahead of me, that I have in mind.

That said, I do suspect that the days of 'owner-owned' books will die a slow death. The financials for publishing commentaries, etc in the face of electronic 'pick-and-choose' are not sustainable without some type of subscription type orientation. And people buying large libraries for which they can't remember what they have is similarly unsustainable. Thus a 'cloud'-based model is probably the only way to go financially. And indeed for maybe 99% of users, it's probably also the most convenient (along the lines of iPad, etc).

Where the 'rub' occurs is that a user has thousands of dollars tied up in a series of books that support his/her spiritual life. And another person controls how he/she will physically (and indeed involving privacy) use those books. Therein lies the problem. And so for me, I buy CD and hope the best for Logos.

Juanita

my path has similarly been to always buy the 'CD' if possible, since L3 will be the final 'unteathered' world. Indeed, this week, the absolutely great deal on Hermeneia for Logos is 'Download', and so I'll be getting my version from the publisher (CD based). I would far prefer the bucks to go to Logos to support more 'stuff' for users. But Bob has a goal in mind, and I have approx 20 years ahead of me, that I have in mind.

I am no computer geek so I have a question regarding purchasing the cd rom versus downloading a file. If I download files and use them in Logos 3 and then regularly back up those resource files on my external hard drive or even burn them to dvd's what is the difference than purchasing a cd rom from a publisher? Isn't the important thing that I have control of the digital files? And what happens when computers no longer have cd rom drives? My one question turned into several [^o)] Thanks for any answers!

Bob Pritchett

I started computing in the late 1970's. I love installed software and dislike cloud solutions.

I also hate setting up a new computer, installing software, moving my data files, etc.

My ideal scenario -- for everything -- is cloud syncing to local applications. Because I run a software company (and am still pretty geeky) I have a lot of computers. I've got desktops at home and work, various out-of-date and current laptops, etc. The new "heavy" travel laptop with all the power, the older "light" travel laptop for short trips. An iPhone and an iPad.

Setting up a new machine to use Logos 3 used to be a nightmare of finding and moving files. Now, I install Logos 4, log in, and everything shows up. And I can also read it on my iPhone and iPad. I love that!

And not just for Logos... the files I used most are synced on between home and office (Microsoft Live Mesh). Because I don't like Google Docs. I don't want to edit through a web browser; I want to use a real word processor, real spreadsheet application, etc. I just want the same doc to be available at home and at work, without carrying around a USB key and worrying about "what's the latest version."

The feedback we've received from users (and our observation of the computing market) is that users love automatic synchronization. The "use it anywhere" capability of Logos 4 books and data are, as far as we can see, the number one selling point of Logos 4.

We designed this functionality in the anticipation that it would be popular. It has been more popular than we expected. While Logos 3 didn't work with books and data this way, Logos 4 was always intended to. In our minds, this is not "crippled" anymore than email is "crippled" by having to go through a hackable (government monitored?) server, instead of being delivered on disintegrating paper in a tamper-proof exploding envelope by armed bicycle couriers.

Now I have heard, and acknowledged that I've heard, that you don't want your content synced to the server. I get it. Some things I don't want in email. I don't put those things into email. But I don't call email "crippled" because it goes through third-party servers. I call it the wrong solution for my privacy needs. It's not crippled, because going through servers is what it was designed to do, and is in fact required in order to "be email."

That's the case for Logos 4 books and data. Going through sync is required in order for Logos 4 to "be Logos 4" -- i.e. "to be a tool that lets you access your books and data anywhere."

Now we can -- and apparently do -- disagree about whether or not that was a good design decision. You may even believe that Logos 3's lack of this feature, or the general history of locally stored data files since the advent of personal computers in the 1970's make offline data storage "right and normal" and online syncing "wrong or optional." But I'm in the camp that believes time marches on, and that "normal" goes along for the ride. You may disagree. (I certainly do, in other areas: I still have a hard-time with the redefinition of coffee from a bottomless cup poured by 'Flo' to a designer drink made by a 'barista' in a special store.)

As a concession to the age / superior-wisdom / intransigence / retro-styling / security-awareness (choose your own adjective! <smile>) of some of our users, we've already added some "turn off Internet use" features, and will probably add either an encrypting password or "by document type" sync disabling in the future.

A) It'll be a "shoot yourself in the foot" type of feature, though, and will be discouraged.

It'll cut you off from what we think is the coolest part of Logos 4 -- using your data anywhere (including some new places you haven't seen yet).

C) It's down the priority list behind all the things we promised already, some of which are in 4.1, and some of which still need to be done.

It really frustrates me to keep being accused of not listening to or caring about our users. You need to remember that we have a lot of users, and you don't all have the same priorities. Despite the volume and passion of a small group of users here, the message we're getting in general is that people love the syncing, and we have many more requests to extend it -- to Android, to bringing their notes to their iPhone, etc. -- than to spend time disabling it.

(I'll also point out that my "increased tech support" scenario is already coming true. Just today I read a forum thread where the "problem" was a user forgetting they'd turned off Internet use.)

With all that stuff that I promised myself I wouldn't re-hash all re-hashed... I'll now move on to your actual question. :-)

1. Yes, Logos is moving towards "constantly tethered" use. At about the same speed, and in parallel with, the rest of the entire world. If anything, we'll be late to the party: we still have an offline application, and we still plan to support and maintain it. Almost every new software company in the past five years has built their product around the assumption that you are (or will be) online all the time. In fact, we don't even call these companies software companies. Most "software" is written in "web" companies, and runs on web sites. Our idea of software -- an offline, installed bit of code -- is practically nostalgic!

2. Yes, technical support costs do drive a lot of the decisions being made at Logos. But that's simple and incomplete. The real situation is, all costs drive all decisions. That's how business work, and, most importantly, how they stay in business. Every decision made in a business is a cost analysis (Luke 14:28), and we weigh the cost of losing customers, the cost of writing code, the cost of supporting a complicated feature, and the cost of having to spend a lot of time arguing in the forums. :-)

Biblia.com is not intended as a replacement for Logos 4. We do not believe that we can get anywhere near the functionality of Logos 4 through a web browser. We are not web browser ideologues; we want the best solution. I believe (child of 70's and 80's computing that I am) that while the web is awesome, particularly for large data sets, the best code and UI is local and native. I even believe that's why "apps" are hotter on mobile devices than visiting web sites. (See Wired Magazine's "The Web is Dead." article.)

Logos is not moving away from local applications. We are moving towards more connectivity and shared data, though, based on what we hear from our customers. Today's "power of synchronization" is that you can get to your documents on many devices. Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature, or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a conversation about the book with its author or other readers.

The good news -- for you -- is that none of this requires throwing out the offline, native-code application that is (and I expect will remain for years to come) the flagship of Logos Bible Software, and you can still choose to cut off the Internet, use our (forthcoming?) "don't sync" features, etc.

(Why Biblia.com then? Good question. A) To attract and find people on the web who are interested in the Bible and either don't know about Logos 4 or haven't seen how it benefits them. Some small percentage of Biblia.com users will upgrade to our "real product." To provide a connection point for coming shared community features, so that a pastor or professor or Bible study leader can use Logos 4 to share sermon notes, Bible reading plans, group prayer lists, research content, small group discussion guides, etc. with a group people, some of whom might have Logos 4, and some of whom may not but still need a way to participate in the group. Biblia.com and the iPhone app are "least common denominators" that ensures a minimum of Bible and (by granted permission) Logos-synched group document access.)

For more on my top-secret plans for the future... read them on our blog: http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/07/logos_bible_software_the_master_plan.html

:-)

-- Bob

Russ White

[deleted because of Bob's response]

Jeremy

Russ there is an easy solution. Sell your licenses and stop using the software. Everyone here is tired of you berating Logos and interpreting what you think Logos is doing. You are creating far more controversy than is necessary. If you have concerns about Logos, why continue to invest thousands of dollars in it? And to say that Logos isn't listening to your concerns is rubbish. You just received an extended response from the CEO. You will never get that kind of response from 99% of the companies in the world. The only way you think your concerns will be "listened to" is if your concerns are immediately implemented. But that stretches the definition of "listened to" to inappropriate proportions.

Russ White

We designed this functionality in the anticipation that it would be popular. It has been more popular than we expected. While Logos 3 didn't work with books and data this way, Logos 4 was always intended to. In our minds, this is not "crippled" anymore than email is "crippled" by having to go through a hackable (government monitored?) server, instead of being delivered on disintegrating paper in a tamper-proof exploding envelope by armed bicycle couriers.

The difference is I can encrypt my email when I send it --I don't mind my data being in Logos, and I don't mind my data being on the 'net. I do mind not being able to do a local backup (networks fail), and I do mind not being able to encrypt it.

[quote]...and will probably add either an encrypting password or "by document type" sync disabling in the future.

Thank You! Either solution would make my life a lot easier, both in being a Logos advocate, and in using the software myself! That decision would make me much more confident to move forward with advocating Logos.

[quote]B) It'll cut you off from what we think is the coolest part of Logos 4 -- using your data anywhere (including some new places you haven't seen yet).

I'll accept that I can't get to specific sets of notes from every platform in order to secure specific things I'm working on. I think everyone else would, too.

[quote]Biblia.com is not intended as a replacement for Logos 4. We do not believe that we can get anywhere near the functionality of Logos 4 through a web browser. We are not web browser ideologues; we want the best solution. I believe (child of 70's and 80's computing that I am) that while the web is awesome, particularly for large data sets, the best code and UI is local and native. I even believe that's why "apps" are hotter on mobile devices than visiting web sites. (See Wired Magazine's "The Web is Dead." article.)

Thanks for this input, as well. This is really the question I wanted answered...

[quote]Logos is not moving away from local applications. We are moving towards more connectivity and shared data, though, based on what we hear from our customers. Today's "power of synchronization" is that you can get to your documents on many devices. Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature, or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a conversation about the book with its author or other readers.

But you must understand that not all my notes were designed for public consumption. That just because I want to share my notes on Luke 1, for instance, doesn't mean I want to share my notes on Genesis 1 that I might be using to work on a new book, or something of that nature. Making people share everything or nothing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I currently use OneNote, because it allows me to share some notes files publicly, put others on the "cloud" with just "password into the service" protection, put others on the "cloud" with encryption, so even MS can't read them, and keep others completely local.

As Bruce Schneier has said --if you want perfect security, you just put your data on a computer, weigh it down with concrete, and dump it over the deepest trench in the Atlantic. Security and usability are always tradeoffs; the point is to give the user the choice, rather than making them accept what Logos thinks is the proper choice.

Thank you for answering, Bob.

:-)

Russ

TCBlack

Thanks again Bob. I know this is headed toward the Logos speaks page even if Rosie hasn't got it yet.

I want to highlight the following for a moment.

It really frustrates me to keep being accused of not listening to or caring about our users.

Seriously.

I agree.

Can we voice disagreements about how the program works or about company direction without impugning the character of the company or it's people? We've all seen (those of us that have been around for at least a few months and have been watching) enough to know that Bob and all at Logos typically not only care deeply about Logos Bible Software and it's users, but are also themselves diligent students of scripture (warts and all).

Matthew C Jones

But you must understand that not all my notes were designed for public consumption.

[:-*] whisper ~ The public is not interested in your notes.

This is a Bible study program, not the missile launch codes or a submarine tracking GPS.

Logan Hall

Today's "power of synchronization" is that you can get to your documents on many devices. Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature, or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a conversation about the book with its author or other readers.

[Y] +1

Thanks Bob, and by the way, please put me in the camp of loving ubiquitous access to my resources, anytime, anyplace... iPad, Android, Biblia.com, Desktop (Win or Mac). It's a geeks dream come true.

Russ White

Can we voice disagreements about how the program works or about company direction without impugning the character of the company or it's people? We've all seen (those of us that have been around for at least a few months and have been watching) enough to know that Bob and all at Logos typically not only care deeply about Logos Bible Software and it's users, but are also themselves diligent students of scripture (warts and all).

I apologize if any of my statements have been taken in this way. I'm a huge advocate of Logos, and Bible study software in general, but there are times when I feel like Logos simply isn't listening. Of course, I also don't think that saying someone isn't listening impugns their character in some way.

OTOH, I notice that it's perfectly fine on these forums to belittle the privacy concerns of users. "No-one cares about your private data," is a common enough comment here (just look at this thread). If anyone thinks that saying "Logos isn't listening" impugns their character, then what does, "your data isn't worth protecting," imply?

Russ

Todd Phillips

but there are times when I feel like Logos
simply isn't listening. Of course, I also don't think that saying
someone isn't listening impugns their character in some way.

Russ, I am friendly to your concerns (but perhaps don't hold them as high as you do), but Bob Pritchett has replied multiple times to threads you have started on this topic, plus he even started a thread himself. I've not sure what you need to feel listened to, but it
seems to me that Bob is listening. Just because someone doesn't change
his mind in response to your argument doesn't mean he isn't listening. It's frustrating listening to this discussion, because I believe that he is listening. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to Bob.

Mark Barnes

I'm a huge advocate of Logos, and Bible study software in general, but there are times when I feel like Logos simply isn't listening

If it's any consolation, during the dark days of Logos3, I 'had' to go to the lengths of setting up an FTP server on my two main PCs, to handle the syncing of at least three different Logos folders, plus (with even more difficulty) registry settings. I was arguing for greater syncing, but to no avail. Nobody was listening (by which I meant, of course, that no-one was listening to me.) But little did I know that Logos was thinking far more clearly than me on this.

I also argued strongly for a Windows Mobile edition, to absolutely no avail. Logos said it wasn't worth it, I said it was. So when L4 came out I was 'forced' to buy an iPhone. Three months later Microsoft announced that Windows Mobile was dead. Again, Logos' were thinking far more clearly than me.

I still argue for various features to be included/excluded from future development. I still think I'm right on those issues (at the moment). But I suspect that history will prove that Logos was right far more often than I was. (Which I guess is why Bob's running the company and not me.)

Rosie Perera

Thanks again Bob. I know this is headed toward the Logos speaks page even if Rosie hasn't got it yet.

Kevin beat me to it.

TCBlack

I apologize if any of my statements have been taken in this way.

Without re-reading this thread (I'm not in the mood bleh) I don't think it was a comment from you Russ. Bob mentioned it, and I read another thread somewhere on here today that point blank did call Bob's character in question (no i don't remember who the poster is, I don't feel like looking it up). After reading that, and then seeing Bob's comment - I had to chime in on agreement.

OTOH, I notice that it's perfectly fine on these forums to belittle the privacy concerns of users.

FWIW I hope I've never done that. I'm a moderate security nut myself - so a comment of that sort would be out of character for me, not that a google search wouldn't show my lose myself once in a while. [*-)]