Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users
We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.
Keeping in mind a few key issues:
- Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
- Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.
What then should their discount plan look like?
- How should the discount work?
- Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
- What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
- One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
- One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
- What should the discount be?
Comments
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Never had a large investment in Pradis, just a handful of titles. Mostly due to not wanting to invest a large amount of money in an inferior product.
I have only one opinion, previous owners should be able to buy previously purchased works at production cost.
That being said, I would be happy to just be able to buy the titles at the discounted "street" price of the print versions.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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I am thankful that Logos is working with Zondervan to help Pradis users transition to Logos edition.
However, while from a technical perceptive the same Zondervan titles will be new products started from scratch, for current users like myself, they are not new titles, not even revised editions even though Logos' engine is miles ahead of Pradis and provides more tools. I already have the licenses to the resources, I am just looking for an engine that is not obsolete
My problem is not with Logos but with Zondervan who decided to discontinue a platform
I do not agree that existing Pradis users are not losing anything, we are losing the support and updates that were supposed to come with the product we purchased (support that was not necessarily great to begin with). we are losing the guarantee that it will be compatible with the next operating system .... and the one after that (not to mention things like 64bit support). Most of them plan to keep our resources for life (ours, not the life of the platform)
The smart move is to jump ship now or risk getting stuck with an obsolete platform that might lead at some point to resources that are not usable or are as good as nonexistent.
This is not really a choice, it becomes a necessity if one wants to keep using these resources for more than a few years.
The problem is that someone like me who paid lets say $500 for a collections of resources, will have to pay more than twice that amount to move to Logos at the regular price ($1000+). and a regular discount might not necessarily be of great help.
I do not like the word "discount" because it is based on cost of the Logos version (and not on the much cheaper price we originally paid) and even a hefty 50% discount will make me pay at least the same price that I paid originally for those resources. It would literally be like buying the same resources twice even thought I already own the licenses.
If Zondervan continued to support Pradis, this would have been a different issue, with a choice left to the user (the convenience of Logos or savings by keeping Pradis). in that case, I would probably keep Pradis. but the choice has been made for me already.
Since Zondervan is unilaterally choosing to ditch Pradis and adopt Logos, they should also provide a way to their users that are forced in that situation to upgrade to the new engine not on a per resource basis (which would look more like a discount which will certainly make us spent at least as much as what we originally paid for the resources ) but using a flat rate to upgrade the whole collection no matter its size.
Alain
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Caveat EmptorAlain Maashe said:The problem is that someone like me who paid lets say $500 for a collections of resources, will have to pay more than twice that amount to move to Logos at the regular price ($1000+). and a regular discount might not necessarily be of great help.
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DanPritchett said:
We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.
Keeping in mind a few key issues:
- Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
- Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.
What then should their discount plan look like?
- How should the discount work?
- Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
- What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
- One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
- One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
- What should the discount be?
Although it is a new product for Zondervan to develop, it just seems like the right thing to do to build trust in a digital medium to offer significant discount for existing Zondervan digital licenses. (I only have one, so I don't have much vested interest). This is a key moment for digital Christian ebook publishing. Will major works be allowed to die or will the proper support be offered for the migration.
My opinion is that the discount should be equivalent to the original price of the Zondervan title (this would still generate revenue as I'm sure the Logos version would cost more...and it would probably draw a larger number of users in).
Only registered Pradis customers should get the discount (doesn't Zondervan have records of what we own? I registered mine)
I think it would be fair to have a limited time upgrade window.
It would make sense to me to make the discount apply only to the same title (unless that title is not being released in Logos, in which case a credit should be provided toward a purchase).
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Paul Golder said:
Never had a large investment in Pradis, just a handful of titles. ...previous owners should be able to buy previously purchased works at production cost.
Mr. Golder makes some good points. I also agree with several things that Mr. Maashe says - especially his comment about the Pradis platform/resources becoming unusable at some point in the future. Thus, switching to Logos is definitely a desirable thing to do as soon as possible. In my case, this will be the third time I have purchased some of these titles ... hardcopy, Pradis, now Logos. I am not angling for a freebie but I do think the comment about "production cost" is well taken.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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DanPritchett said:
What then should their discount plan look like?
I must admit I saw a 50% off collection of Zondervan resources at my local Christian Book store. I contemplated telling the store manager about the ditching of Pradis and trying to take them down to 25% and then taking advantage of a Previous owner discount i heard would be offered. I would let the owner know my plan and I am letting you know that if it works in my favor I'll take the deal so you may want to weigh things like this in your decision.
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JRS said:
In my case, this will be the third time I have purchased some of these titles ... hardcopy, Pradis, now Logos.
Zondervan left me even more high and dry. I was an early purchaser of the NIDNTT and the NIDOTTE (think those are the right abbreviations) in the pre-Pradis miserable software Zondervan produced. I had already paid for NIDNTT in hardback. When Pradis came out I was offered nada for my previous purchase. Was told to re-buy the whole thing. Nope. Burned once, not about to be burned again.
I suspect unless Zondervan does a lot to make their Pradis customers happier than they made me (and others like me) there will be a lot of anti-Zondervan sentiment stirred up. You know, you can't buy customer good will but you can lose it if you are cheap.
I still stay away from Zondervan even in their print stuff. No chance I'd buy anything Pradis. I think their approach was far from Christian. Glad I've never found that here at Logos.
I've ordered the pre-pub for both these resources. I am sure Zondervan doesn't intend to offer me anything for buying them again. I guess that's what they are counting on. Bad on Zondervan.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:
I think their approach was far from Christian. Glad I've never found that here at Logos.
Zondervan is just a well-marketed division of Harper Collins, which is part of News Limited. Nothing Christian about it (which is not to say that many of those who work for them might be Christian and well intentioned).
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I should have said: Which is not to say that many people who work for Zondervan are not Christians and well intentioned. I just wanted to point out that Zondervan is a part of a corporate giant in the publishing industry, and that brings a whole range of inflexibilities of approach.0
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I have several hundred dollars invested in Pradis and significantly more in Logos. Frankly, it irritates me to no end that I would have to pay anything extra to switch my resources from Pradis to Logos. I already paid for my resources! I know this is not Logos' fault. I appreciate their efforts in bringing Zondervan resources to Logos. But Zondervan is crazy if they think they are going to get another penny from me!
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DanPritchett said:
We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.
Keeping in mind a few key issues:
- Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
- Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.
What then should their discount plan look like?
- How should the discount work?
- Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
- What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
- One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
- One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
- What should the discount be?
I have all the Pradis collection & have most of the Pradis collection in hard copy, so i am interested in this. I do hope some godly common sense prevails in this. Purchasing the license twice if deeply discounted, is fine by me. Mine is a question of fairness, will Zondervan do the right thing by their customers?
We supported the pradis product by investing in it heavily, were we wrong to do so? Will Zondervan take this into consideration? I will have to wait and see what Zondervan have in mind.
Simply put, be fair Zondervan.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Because I refused to buy into Pradis, I don't have anything to gain by saying this... I think Zondervan needs to take the hit on the transference of users to the Libronix platform and make it dirt cheap. Pradis users already paid development and royalty fees once, and if users have to do this again, it really is hard to not see how it disenfranchises them. The death of Pradis in digital terms will be like a book going out of print, except when the day comes that Pradis won't run anymore on Windows, the owners no longer have a book they can read.
If Zondervan was going out of business, things would be different. However, since Zondervan is going to continue to market and sell products, I think its corporate responsibility is to take care of its customers. Doing so will probably yield much higher dividends in the long run through customer loyalty and support. Even though I am not a Pradis user, I do care about how companies like Zondervan take care of their users and it does influence my future purchasing decisions.
This is actually a very interesting moment in the e-book development... and I will be watching it carefully from an overall development point of view. As much as I like Logos and other electronic Bible products, I have asked myself the question more than once what if the company goes out of business or changes its business strategy... will I be left with a bunch of worthless files which I cannot do anything with or is my electronic property as tangible as a paper book?
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DanPritchett said:
We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.
Keeping in mind a few key issues:
- Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
- Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.
What then should their discount plan look like?
- How should the discount work?
- Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
- What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
- One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
- One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
- What should the discount be?
Regarding #1, I'm assuming the manpower should be less because the resources are already digital (I'm referring to Expositor's Bible Commentary as an example, which I own, that is already in Pradis).
Regarding #2, there is a long-term issue as far as application support, but right now, yes, we can keep using Pradis.
For how the discount works, here's a few thoughts.
Unless there's a unique identifier on the box/CD (I don't recall), it would be hard to prove when/where you got the software. I bought mine several years ago, so I no longer have the receipt. I didn't buy it direct from Zondervan, either. I suppose an 'honor system' or providing some basic level of info about the software to indicate the applicant actually has it won't work because people will abuse it?
Discounts on all the Zondervan products (perhaps a different level for the ones that were not previously electronic) would promote sales, I'd think. But I'm personally concerned with one title, so for now it doesn't matter to me.
An option for multiple orders within the next year would be great, both for those who haven't heard about the transition yet, and for those who can't afford to buy several commentary/book bundles all at once.
It would be great to see Zondervan add an academic discount option, but I don't know if that's on the table, for those who may not have the Pradis version currently but want to get into some of the Zondervan titles.
Regarding the upgrade: For the specific title I'm looking at (EBC), the Pradis version sells in CD form for around $80. The Libronix preorder is $130. If Zondervan did a 50% discount, I would definitely go for the Libronix version ($65 upgrade for longevity and convenience). If it's a 10-20% discount, I'm going to look into other options (sell Pradis, wait, etc).
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DanPritchett said:
What then should their discount plan look like?
Once I thought about this I said to myself "you know, it shouldn't really be their discount plan, it should be Logos'" They were already paid for these resources, and the only charge that should be made is from Logos for the cost of creating the books. Logos should determine the discount, not zondervan, IMHO. Of course I'm also clueless when it comes to the publishing world :-)
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I think Zondervan needs to take the hit on the transference of users to the Libronix platform and make it dirt cheap.
I don't own Pradis either, so take this for what it's worth.
I would agree that it would make good marketing sense to do this. Businesses do better when they stand behind their customers, than when they only stand behind their products.
However, one of the reasons Pradis failed is that it's resources were not up to Logos standards. They were cheap and it showed. I don't see anything wrong with asking existing users to pay for the added value in usability the resources will have in the Logos platform.
Now it's been said that all these resources have to be recoded 'from scratch.' That's not entirely true, since they do exist in electronic form, and the surface text won't have to be re-entered. But when the Logos' employee said, that he was cluing us in to the fact that from Logos' perspective having the surface text is merely 'starting from scratch.' All the keylinks have to be checked for accuracy (including the more esoteric ones), references to other works that may, or may not be in the Logos library of offerings have to be discovered, parsed and linked, all topics need to be coded and registered, all Greek, Hebrew and other language text needs to be marked and possibly re-coded to work with the current Logos font specifications, besides inserting all the chapter and article markers, bibliographical materials, MARC codes, etc. All that must be done, or Logos users will complain that the Zondervan titles are all 'dumbed down' and Logos reputation is damaged.
While I understand the frustration of Pradis users, I hope they understand that the transfer of titles from one platform to a far superior one, has a cost, and is worth the cost.
All that being said, I do agree with Donovan, that it would build a tremendous amount of goodwill, particularly with Logos users who have begun to boycott Zondervan, in part because of their refusal to make their products available to Logos, and because of the appearance that Zondervan is more interested in making a buck, than in promoting the Christian Faith. Absorbing the cost of reworking these titles for current Pradis owners, would be seen as a rare act of corporate generosity, and change the equation Zondervan=greed to Zondervan=your friend in the publishing business. Even from a strictly bottom-line, money perspective, it's hard to see how this would not benefit the brand and the company, and thereby create more revenue in the long-run.
But since this is a joint venture, and Logos will benefit from the influx of users to the Logos platform, it would seem that it would also be in Logos' interest to offer deep discounts for Pradis users who make the switch to Logos - either by sharing the cost of development for current Pradis owners, or by offering deep discounts to Pradis users for other valuable titles that have already paid for themselves. Sort of a "Logos' bucks" approach, where users would be given $X to spend on resources on a list of the above mentioned titles. This could be structured so that Logos doesn't actually give away anything but it's profit margin (or a portion of it). This would also build good will among current Logos users who also own Pradis, and incentivize Pradis users who don't yet own Logos to make the transition ang get in the Logos loop, all the while introducing them to the system for continuing to build own's library.
It seems to me that this could easily be a win-win-win for Zondervan, Logos, and Pradis owners, with minimal overall impact on the bottom line of anyone.
But then again, what do I know about what it actually takes to run a company like Zondervan or Logos.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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I am not adding much to the good points that have made except for adding my support. I am not aware that Zondervan provides as great an opportunity to give feedback as Logos does or else we would not be making these comments here (since most agree that the onus should be on Zondervan, not Logos). So perhaps, Logos staff would consider passing on our comments to Zondervan.
Seems to me that we are touching on essential points that concern the increasing use of digital products in a variety of media and platforms as opposed to plain old books, cds, etc. The latter we bought once and used for life as long as we took good care of them. The former is subject to the caprices of technological flux. More and more we hear that we do not buy just content anymore but "a product" which includes the format and platform and related licenses. Some of it makes sense (we do gain the power of Logos by transitioning the content from Pradis) but fairness needs to be both ways (compensation for monies already received by Zondervan and the shortened life of the purchases).
I do want to congratulate the Logos Team once again for being so "on the ball" and working on these questions actively. This is already so much more that we get from many other companies. It should be normal, but remains exceptional. Thanks.
Blessings,
Francis
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DanPritchett said:
We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.
Keeping in mind a few key issues:
- Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
- Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.
What then should their discount plan look like?
- How should the discount work?
- Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
- What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
- One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
- One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
- What should the discount be?
Once again I look at things a bit differently... Why is the transfer of Pradis to the Logos platform any different from the transfer of Logos 2.x to the Logos 3 platform? In both cases there were significant investments to develop the new software and books, only Zondervan is out-sourcing the development work to Logos whereas Logos did it in-house... I wasn't using Logos when Logos 3 was launched. Was there a charge to upgrade from 2.x to 3? A discount offered? Was there a time-limit? It seems to me that Zondervan should be responsible for transitioning its customers to the new platform. Why should their responsibility to their users be impacted by their decision to out-source development of the new platform?
Just a thought...
Michael
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I am of the view that the discount should be significant as given the finishing of support for Pradis and the potential problems resulting from future changes in operating systems, there is no guarantee that the system will continue to be functional in the future. I feel particularly strongly about this as I have only recently purchased a number of Pradis items, at a time when Zondervan would have known they were ceasing to support Pradis. Overall I'm pretty disappointed with the ethos of Zondervan, whereas I have nothing but praise for how Logos looks after its customer base.
Andrew
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Amen Andrew!
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It is true that Zondervan's support for Pradis stands no comparison with the excellent service given by Logos. But, it almost sounds like many are already complaining about what Zondervan's decision will be when it has not been made yet. Can't we just express our concerns and requests and see what the response will be? Even when it comes to Zondervan, "love hopes all things" (1 Cor 13:7). I guess what I am saying is that there is often in this forum lots of alarmism and early criticism that spark out of what should only be questions and I just would like to encourage others to "do unto others what you would have them do to you" (thinking about how our wording may sound to the staff of Logos or Zondervan who read it).
Blessings,
Francis
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As a "believer in business" for 25+ years, I understand that the decision is not as simple as I (and probably Dan and everyone else at Logos) would like it to be.
From my vantage point, Zondervan's decision to allow their products to be licensed in Libronix format is pretty straight forward. They aren't just abandoning Pradis, they are embracing a new format and a new product, that being the Glo Bible, (www.bibleglo.com). Their decision wasn't made out of concession that Libronix was a "better" format or in response to any other motives than financial. Simply put, by allowing their products to be Logos-friendly they are able to maintain a viable revenue flow for these electronic resources while doing none of the work.
Don't get me wrong. I'm ecstatic about the concept of the numerous resources I have in the vastly inferior (in my opinion) interface being available in Logos/Libronix, (which is my software of choice), but I am under no disillusion that Zondervan is going to just give us a free upgrade or that their arrangement with Logos is going to allow them (Logos) to do that by Zondervan taking some type of financial hit in the deal to offset Logos' development costs.
Dan, while I really do appreciate the question being asked, because I do believe that Logos cares about and listens to its customer, this was first and foremost a business decision (especially on the part of Zondervan) and I can't help but think (discern?) that the asking of this question (including the way it was presented) is at least in part to prepare us for an upgrade fee structure that neither you nor Logos/Pradis users, myself included, would have preferred.
My response to your question is simply, "Do what you can to make it as 'Logos' as possible."
With respect and appreciation,
Steve
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Joe Miller said:
Yeah... The question was meant to be rhetorical... (wry grin). The point was that development costs are incurred either way. One could argue that, even with out-sourcing, Zondervan's costs should be relatively lower since no new "base platform" need be developed. I would think that a new Zondervan shell would need to be created and the resources converted to Logos format for the transfer. Not that this is a small thing, but Logos must have had a significant development cost in creating the new functionality of Logos 3 which Zondervan need not incur... But then, I'm no software developer, so what do I know? [:)]
Michael
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Fair enough. Then I guess that puts you in agreement with the comment above that, for you, a fair deal would be Zondervan makes $0 on your upgrade, and Zondervan should cover the development costs which they should have paid anyway to advance their software/product. Sound about right?Michael said:The point was that development costs are incurred either way.
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As an owner of Z's Expositors Bible Commentary I will be happy if it is a free trade. Here is why I think this should happen this way.
1. I've already paid Zondervan once for this book and should not have to pay them again for the same books.
2. Logos is not losing money by giving one more away. The only thing I could see is a fee for either the disks or to pay for the very small amount of bandwith it would cost to download. $10 or so for S/H would be fair. But if I do not get it free plus this minor fee, I likely won't buy it. So you are not losing a sale by giving it to me. Meanwhile since it is a digital book you are not paying out any more money other than the above administrative costs to give it away. Unlike a book, once it is in digital format it doesn't cost you anything but the administrative costs. It is all profit otherwise.
So giving it to us free is not hurting Logos while it is helping Logos as many Zondervan customers are not now Logos customers. They will become such if they are given a free copy of their books and see how good the program is and want more.
Here is how you can prove that I own it. I send you the disc. You can have it if I get equal value free. If you give these free, then charge full price for other Z products that I cannot prove that I own via the above form. Also, it would only be fair to make it a limited time offer.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Here is how you can prove that I own it. I send you the disc. You can have it if I get equal value free. If you give these free, then charge full price for other Z products that I cannot prove that I own via the above form. Also, it would only be fair to make it a limited time offer.
Kevin Purcell
High Peak Baptist Church
and Christian Computing Magazine0 -
I would go along with Kevin's suggestion of a (free) disc exchange.
Andrew
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
Meanwhile since it is a digital book you are not paying out any more money other than the above administrative costs to give it away. Unlike a book, once it is in digital format it doesn't cost you anything but the administrative costs. It is all profit otherwise.
Not true. See my post above. The digital format is only the beginning of what needs to happen to make the book topically indexed, and keylinked with Scriptures and other Logos resources (that may or may not be there). If this were just a PDF, you'd be right, but this is supposed to be fully up to Logos standards for resources. I expect Commentaries (like Expositors) are among the most heavily keylinked resources both to Scriptures and to other Books. In some of my books, even verses cited as text are keylinked (example: "In the second book of Kings we see, in the third chapter, a strange thing going on in the verses 1-3" -- okay I totally made that up-- but I've seen instances where "1-3" is properly linked to 2Kings 3). That's what Logos users have come to expect from Logos resources.
Besides development costs, there are licensing costs. In this case, for current Pradis users, who own the resources they will be re-buying, I think those costs should be waved (i.e. transferred between platforms).
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
1. I've already paid Zondervan once for this book and should not have to pay them again for the same books.
I hear this argument a lot, and, as others have expressed, it doesn't take the format change into account. It would be like asking for a paperback to hardback upgrade for physical books. Yes the paperback ones maybe falling apart, but you still have to buy them again. Caveat Emptor: did Zondervan promise free upgrades in perpetuity? If not, why should it be expected? Good will may be a reason, but can it be demanded?
Logos has promised to keep our licenses active as long as they can, but we are at the mercy of Logos for our books, and there's nothing to prevent them from going out of business, and making our licenses obsolete.
Kevin A. Purcell said:Unlike a book, once it is in digital format it doesn't cost you
anything but the administrative costs. It is all profit otherwise.Unless of course, the cost of development of that book is to be paid for by future purchases. There's no profit before the costs are paid.
Kevin A. Purcell said:But if I do not get it free plus this minor fee, I likely won't buy it.
So either way, you're not buying it, right?
I only own EBC in the first (non-Pradis) digital format. I don't have a financial interest in the upgrade discount (it wouldn't apply to me). But I agree that existing users should only have to pay development costs at the max. Though a free crossgrade would generate a lot of good will.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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AndrewChuter said:
I would go along with Kevin's suggestion of a (free) disc exchange.
Andrew
The Pradis disks I have (EBC and Preacher&Teacher's Library) have serial numbers on the disk that had to be entered when they installed, Wouldn't these serial numbers prove that I own the product (also, I registered both products electronically so I'd think Zondervan already has my information). As far as upgrade costs there are two items in my current collection I'd probably buy at the listed price if I had too (EBC and the Encyclopedia) but i think Zondervan should customer goodwill and the prospect for future purchases. Like many (most?)on this board I have several thousand dollars invested in LOGOS books and am very happy with the company and it's sales people because of the quality of the software and the way the company treats us.
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Several have been more erudite than I am on the issue of fairness, the intricacies of digital production, and the complexities of business decisions. What I am here adding is purely another voice:
1. I have almost zero positive to say about my experience with Zondervan in regard to their software, their website, and their tech support. Now, there IS positive stuff:
- I like their print resources.
- I am glad it was offered digitally.
- Their price was reasonable.
- Some of their Pradis ideas were nice (customization of pane background color and font, etc)
- A guy named Alane in tech was fairly responsive to my emails and personally sent out hand copied upgrades of Pradis to me when requested, or he filled me in on some of the goings on.
- once a tech person did help guide me through an aweful installation experience.
- I sometimes saw resources I wanted on their website.
Beyond those points, my impression is pretty negative. People (tech or whomever) are hard to get ahold of, website info is way out of date, website is not very intuitive and is very clunky, I already paid to upgrade an obsolete software platform so that it would work on XP--which was my introduction to Pradis. Pradis was plagued with many issues (incorrect or incomplete tagging of hyperlinks, installation issues galore, etc etc).
I only had Pradis through clenched teeth: no other digital option for their material, which in some cases I felt was a necessity. I only passed on to Logos a few of what I thought were Pradis' strengths, but overall, I could not stand working with it, or trying to get help, or navigating their site. I never recommended them, and certainly didn't brag on them (unlike what I do with Logos).
I do not expect a freebie to upgrade, but I agree with a couple who have said that their biting the bullet to absorb much of the cost of upgrading existing Pradis customers will go a long way to repair their image. However, perhaps they have a calculated decision: since all their stuff (essentially) will now be on Logos--whose reputation is near sterling--they might figure we will lose our "anti-Zondervan/Pradis malaise" and eventually buy their products at a normal rate, just like we do Baker, Word, College Press, etc., and not have to bite the bullet.
I am positive that Pradis will become obsolete in just a few OS changes. And then we will be stuck.
This issue IS--more than even a Zondervan Image thing--about our sense of "security" in investing in a digital product. Yeah, books can deteriorate--but with reasonable care, they have many decades (even centuries) of use, before they become obsolete by the sheer fact that newer, more updated works have appeared--but then we and our children are then dead. What I DON'T like is deciding NOT to buy print works, instead investing literally thousands upon thousands in digital works, and then within 5 years having to pony up the same cost AGAIN, for the SAME WORKS because their tech model/platform wasn't sustained. . .
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Hi Daniel, I echo your sentiments. I had NIDOTTE and NIDNTTE in the early Zondervan Reference software days, before Pradis and then I learned I needed to upgrade to Pradis to use the same dictionaries and there was no price break given. I did not upgrade.Daniel DeVilder said:This issue IS--more than even a Zondervan Image thing--about our sense of "security" in investing in a digital product. Yeah, books can deteriorate--but with reasonable care, they have many decades (even centuries) of use, before they become obsolete by the sheer fact that newer, more updated works have appeared--but then we and our children are then dead. What I DON'T like is deciding NOT to buy print works, instead investing literally thousands upon thousands in digital works, and then within 5 years having to pony up the same cost AGAIN, for the SAME WORKS because their tech model/platform wasn't sustained. . .
Electronic media is not tangible; books are. I have both and am positioning myself to be able to study without electronic media, if that were to fail from some unanticipated event. Based on years of experience with both Logos and Zondervan software, I tend to have a very high opinion of Logos and having been a user of all the other software vendors, I think, Logos can be trusted to provide a future for software and that is the major concern many of us have--the future, given Zondervan has changed the future for many. I have honestly, been wavering over the cost of NICOT/NICNT and wondering over should I just buy print edition for the SAME price. I choose Logos. The sense of security comes from the CEO and their philosophy. No one can guaranteee that our electrical grid will still function tomorrow. We had that experience here in Monroe, MI several years ago. It was interrupted for quite a while and we had to read our print Bibles. Wow! I believe Logos is doing their very best not only to give us great selections but to ensure a future for us. I hope this helps, Daniel. God Bless
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I have had a long and painful relationship with Zondervan ever since it started to sell software since the early 1990's. Every update of the platform required the user to essentialy to repurchase the product all over again. Zondervan's "upgrade Price" was higher than purchasing the product new from an online retailer. I was never a happy Zondervan user no matter what version of their software I was using. That being said, I'm not holding my breath for much help from Zondervan.
There are costs to keep book files updated with new technology which is totally different from the print business. Bob has said the cost to edit and tag books is basicaly the same cost a publisher has in preparing a text for print publication. Logos is the only company that updates their books for free and updates their software for free. Personally, I think that unless Logos experiences a lot of new growth, that model can't be substained for the long haul. Bob't even has even committed to retagging their 8,000 to 9,000 titles to bring them up to date, I can't even begin to guess at the cost of doing that.
Unfortunately, most new users don't buy extra books beyond the orginal package they bought. So I f Logos gets new customers with offering "deep" discounts to buy Logos versions of their Pradis titles, I don't see that as a big win financially for Logos.
Some Thoughts
Bobby
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My post did sound right to me after I wrote it so I rewrote it. Sorry if anyone read it and it sounded haughty.
A few months ago I read an article about switching to digital libraries from I believe Bob P. With Logos we do not own the books we purchase, they are ours on lease. It is probably the same with Pradis, although I don't know. I only know one other minister, personally, who uses Pradis and he lives in Michigan...Zondervan's home turf. I also have an acquaintance who works at Zondervan.
In a similar situation there are some LSS books (old version of Logos) that have not yet been updated to Libronix books and do not work with the current Mac build of Logos. I do know of some who have a problem with this. Invested money in a product that they can no longer take advantage of.
This is a gamble we take with digital libraries...whoever they are. That's not to make light of anyone who is affected/upset by this choice. It is a situation that stinks.
If the day should come and Logos has to close it's doors, I know how I would feel. Here is what I would love to see happen. It would be way awesome if Logos just said, hey prove your Pradis library and we will give them to you on Logos. Understanding that it is a business, I doubt it would happen. Talk about creating brand loyalty though. Wow. I wonder how large the Pradis base is? I wonder how much it would cost. I think it would be cool of Logos to give a steep discount to Pradis users...like 75%-90%.
If I understand everything though, the good news is, Pradis will still work. Just no more development. Bugs, Books and Bibles will still be yours.
Just some of my naive thoughts and opinions.
all about Christ,
David Buckham
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I don't own any Pradis products except for the NIV which was included with the Archaeological Bible I purchased in print a few years ago. I was not very impressed with Pradis and like Logos much better. I know that many have invested a lot of money in Pradis and I think it would be great if Zondervan covered a significant portion of their upgrade to Logos.
I am excited to see what other titles published by Zondervan become available in Logos.
Ron
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I think it's fair that the discount is equivalent to the original price we paid for the equivalent Pradis resources.
As to how to prove that I own certain Pradis books, isn't there some kind of license file on my computer that Logos can check for?
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I purchased : Zondervan Theological Dictionaries (NIDOTTE/NIDNTTE), Zondervan NIV Study Bible Library which has EBC on it, and Scholar's Edition 5.0 Pradis. I have the original three disks. I cannot remember if I registered them because it wasn't required. I don't think I should have to pay full price for any of these resources.
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I bought Zondervan's NIDOTTE/NIDNTTE twice now and the EBC three times, each time no reasonable upgrade was offered. It was cheaper to buy new from and online retailer! Zondervan didn't even offer to update book files when known errors were fixed.
These three titles are important enough to me that I will pay (whatever Logos decides) once more for them and hopefully it will be my last purchase of these titles!
Bobby
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You have missed my point. Once you do the work, which you are going to do anyway, it does not cost you anymore to give it away to one who will unlikely ever pay for it. But it does gain you a happy, paying customer who might not otherwise become one. My point is that once the work is done, the only cost to Logos to give it away is ...
1. Administrative costs of the actual transaction
2. Lost revenue from a sale
I feel like paying the first one is fair. But since I am not likely going to buy it again #2 is moot.
However, when you factor in all the potential sales of future books that you could gain from a new former Pradis user who would not have become a logos user if he was not given the books, logos will gain far more by giving it to those customers for the cost of the #1.
Simple logic and math seems to say it is in Logos' best interest to do what is also in the customer's best interests in this case.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin,
I think the issue is Zondervan losing money not Logos. As I stated earlier, Bob P has said most of their customers don't buy extra books beyond their initial purchase. So, not much of a win for Logos on that front. As for Zondervan who is paying for the development costs will be the one losing financially by offering a deep discount. By the way that is why I keep refering to Zondervan's history of dealing with upgrades on their software. I have no historical reason to trust Zondervan.
Remember this is Zondervan's titles, there paying the freight not Logos, and they are setting the price for retail not Logos. It's the same for the IVP collections or Nelson collections. So I don't see how you're looking to Logos for some kind of minimal cost to replace what you bought in Pradis.
Bobby
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I think we have to continue to keep in mind that Zondervan is not going out of business... if they were going bankrupt, this would be fruitless discussion. However, Zondervan will make a profit this year (hopefully) and will make profit on the future sales of it's electronic products. I am of the genuine belief that Zondervan will actually make MORE money in the long run from using an industry standard like Logos as opposed to developing their own proprietary program. Think of the savings of not having to maintain Pradis for starters.
Because Zondervan's digital products are going to be on ongoing business, it is wrong for users who put their trust in the company's long term digital strategy, to have to pay now that Zondervan is changing digital platforms. Zondervan needs to absorb the transition of users into their corporate costs associated with this change in strategy (aside from some token costs) and make just a bit less money this year.
Don't get me wrong, I am delighted Zondervan is coming to Logos and I am not anti corporations making money. However, because Zondervan stands to make more money out of this move, it therefore needs to take care of its customers that it is in effect leaving stranded. Pradis will die and it will break in the future as the Windows operating system changes.
This needs to be treated as a highly discounted crossgrade. These already exist in the industry... so it is not without precedence.
Again, I don't stand to benefit from this except I think that this is a very interesting situation for people who have invested a lot of money in a digital product and the company is changing strategy. I don't know if this will set a "precedent", but I do think it is a very important decision we all need to keep an eye on.
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Donovan,
My only thought about what you wrote is this. Let's pretend Pradis version 7 came out to support Windows 7. Zondervan would charge it's users all over again to "upgrade" to the new platform, even thought it's users had already purchased the license to the book title from them. That's what Zondervan's policy has been since the early 1990's. So even if Zondervan had kept Pradis, we would still be paying for "future operating system compatibility" for the same book titles.
There is hope of course that Zondervan will change it's past policies and cross upgrade Pradis to Logos. It's just a hope that I won't be holding my breath for!
Bobby
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BobbyTerhune said:
I bought Zondervan's NIDOTTE/NIDNTTE twice now and the EBC three times, each time no reasonable upgrade was offered. It was cheaper to buy new from and online retailer! Zondervan didn't even offer to update book files when known errors were fixed.
These three titles are important enough to me that I will pay (whatever Logos decides) once more for them and hopefully it will be my last purchase of these titles!
Bobby
Bobby,
Logos doesn't get to set the price! This really is out of their control. The secular publishing companies woke up to the fact there is a lot of money spent on Christian books, music and software. They went out and bought up all the major Christian publishing houses. They are not in the game to preach the gospel or build up the church. The guys at the top just look at the bottom line. Sure they are a business. But Hudson Taylor's admonition is "God's work, done God's way, will never lack God's supply."
I have a peace about Logos software in the immediate future because they are privately held. If they should ever be bought out, expect some negative developments. (I'm curious if that isn't what almost happened in Logos' Initial Public Offering.) We will ultimately have to decide if Zondervan's material is useful enough to pay for again at whatever price Zondervan sets.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Again, I don't stand to benefit from this except I think that this is a very interesting situation for people who have invested a lot of money in a digital product and the company is changing strategy. I don't know if this will set a "precedent", but I do think it is a very important decision we all need to keep an eye on.
Donovan,
The good precedent has already been set by the "other" major Bible software company. Everybody had invested heavily in the STEP format (remember all the Christian software publishers claimed it was the standard?). Then when the "other" company introduced a new format they offered VERY GENEROUS cross-grade discounts to help users transition. Now they offer a free compatible program and dozens (hundreds?) of free titles. That is a precedent.. Being stingy with your customer base when they were faithful while the rest of the world derided you is not a precedent to be proud of.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew,
You are correct. I still believe these titles are worth repurchashing again at the prices that are listed on the prepub page even if we don't get a deep discount for cross upgrading.
Bobby
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This is what Zondervan emailed to me (and probably the same to others who inquired about the transition):
"Zondervan is going to make sure we work with the Pradis customers for a smooth transition to other search engines. Current Pradis customers will be eligible for a discount directly from Zondervan when new titles become available. The discount details will be announced in Zondervan’s Digital Resources e-newsletter "
"a smooth transition to other search engines" ??? Who defines what this is?? It sounds like Zondervan.
"Zondervan is going to make sure we work with Pradis customers..." What does this mean?
My conclusion is that it sounds very nice. And I will be pleasantly surprised if I who am a Pradis customer will find that Zondervan will work with me for a smooth transition.
And the flip side of this issue is being a Pradis customer and never dreaming that you might find yourself in a position to have to shift to Logos software or stick with what you have without a future.
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If we have to buy the titles directly from Zondervan to get the discount it would seem Logos is out of the picture as far as helping us out. I wonder if the prepub price is already going to be the best price? I say this because in the past "Zondervan Upgrades" have been cheaper elsewhere.
Bobby
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It's still my belief that any decision of the cost of upgrading/converting Pradis resources to Libronix will be up to Zondervan and not Logos. There has been no indication that Logos will have even the slightest say, other than this "survey type" question by Dan which started this discussion, (and doesn't identify Logos' "power" to influence the outcome in any way).
Zondervan will set the pricing and it will not be reflective of Logos past practices. As very clear evidence, look again at the Pre-Pub prices for the individual Zondervan products: "Pre-Pub Special Price" = "Logos Sales Price" = "Suggested Retail Price." NO DISCOUNTS! NO LOGOS (influence)! ALL ZONDERVAN (still)!
It's Zondervan! The format is new, but the company remains the same. While I maintain some hope to be pleasantly surprised or even shocked (if it were free), I also need to be realistic, which is why I have no reason to expect that the leopard will change his spots, lest I be disappointed, frustrated and even angry when it doesn't happen. That's the danger of questions and discussions like this that build people's hopes when you have little or know control in making their desires a reality, which I fear is the case here.
Again, with no disrespect intended, I have to believe that Dan pretty much knew what we expected/wanted when he asked his question, although he also knew it would never be a consensus. He knows us pretty well by now and, let's be frank, it's not a hard answer to figure out. So please just have Zondervan tell us what the policy is going to be (as they indicated on their site that they would be the source of the info), so I can start my saving and decision-making and maybe even (because I still have an ounce of hope) celebrating.
Thanks.
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One of the factors that makes "change' more acceptable is to give those who are the objects of the change a voice or the ability to participate. To me, this thread is more like hoping and venting; I don't think my opinion will change what Zondervan will do or has done already. (I want to be wrong, too.) The way this is handled can be setting a precedent for what happens in similar situations in the future.
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JoanKorte said:
One of the factors that makes "change' more acceptable is to give those who are the objects of the change a voice or the ability to participate. To me, this thread is more like hoping and venting; I don't think my opinion will change what Zondervan will do or has done already. (I want to be wrong, too.) The way this is handled can be setting a precedent for what happens in similar situations in the future.
Anyone who has raised teenagers knows what it feels like to hope against the obvious. That is what we are doing here. Zondervan has already established their modus operandi. They don't really need anybody to buy the Libronix version of the NIV stuff since two years from now NIV2011 will be out and they will re-issue all their publications as "new, with fresh insights, more scholarly, and relevant to the emerging church!" (Remember, according to them, a full 10% of the NIV has become obsolete.)
When everybody started clamoring for Zondervan's titles in Libronix format, people at Logos apparently went to bat for us. Like Rachel imploring Jacob ("Give me a child lest I die!"), we demanded Logos get Zondervan for us. (Logos could have answered us, "Am I God that I can deliver Zondervan at a low price?" Well, we got what we asked for, warts and all. We need to decide if the ugly bride is worth marrying. We will have to look at her face across he table every morning for the rest of our days. Just be sure her cooking is good enough to compensate. (Please pardon my chauvinism - I know there are many beautiful ladies who are also marvelous cooks. I think you get my point tho'.)To Logos I give a hearty THANK YOU! To Zondervan, I also say thank you. Now if only my eyesight would dim as my appetite grows.[^]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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