Downloads: Its time for General Consensus to be considered
Comments
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Bob,
You'll be happy to know that I don't care. True, I've opened my resources folder every now and again to figure it out what downloaded, but the 'fix' now in the 4.2 beta works for me.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Dave Hooton said:
I'm coming in late on this one,
And I am even later but I did not see anything on multi computers updates.
If we could move the update to the other machines then one download could update all of our computers. I have three, one with both L3 and L4 (vista 7) and one (vista) on L4 and an older XP on L3
Procedure:
[new item in setup: IS THIS THE MAIN COMPUTER? YES / NO ]
[new item in setup: UPDATE FROM INTERNET OR LOCAL? INTERNET / LOCAL]
((ONLY ASKED IF NOT THE MAIN COMPUTER))
Log on to MAIN computer and see if there is a download today.
See size of download – do you want to download now?
[If you do not download it will again ask the next time you log onto the MAIN computer]
After update Move the update file(s) to the other computers [via network or flash drives]
The non main computers would see that an update is needed and would wait for the update files to be moved to them by the user but would let you know that updates were available.
PROBLEM: what if user skipped an update on the other computers? If missing an update the other computer would KNOW and request permission to update from INTERNET with a note that the manual update was corrupted.
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David Ames said:Dave Hooton said:
I'm coming in late on this one,
And I am even later but I did not see anything on multi computers updates.
If we could move the update to the other machines then one download could update all of our computers. I have three, one with both L3 and L4 (vista 7) and one (vista) on L4 and an older XP on L3
Procedure:
[new item in setup: IS THIS THE MAIN COMPUTER? YES / NO ]
[new item in setup: UPDATE FROM INTERNET OR LOCAL? INTERNET / LOCAL]
((ONLY ASKED IF NOT THE MAIN COMPUTER))
Log on to MAIN computer and see if there is a download today.
See size of download – do you want to download now?
[If you do not download it will again ask the next time you log onto the MAIN computer]
After update Move the update file(s) to the other computers [via network or flash drives]
The non main computers would see that an update is needed and would wait for the update files to be moved to them by the user but would let you know that updates were available.
PROBLEM: what if user skipped an update on the other computers? If missing an update the other computer would KNOW and request permission to update from INTERNET with a note that the manual update was corrupted.
Here are several procedures that users have worked out and documented for quick installation onto multiple computers: http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers
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Rosie Perera said:
[Here are several procedures that users have worked out and documented for quick installation onto multiple computers: http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers
Thanks for the link [and everything else]
First thing I noticed:
“”THESE PROCEDURES ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY LOGOS SO YOU PERFORM THEM AT YOUR OWN RISK!””
The instructions tell how to install the second instance from scratch and update it the first time
But the instructions do not have a <<start here if adding to existing instance>> label
[That is where one would start doing the next update and the one after that …]
[spent years doing user documentation – I could guess but the <<start next update here>> label is missing]
Also the headings for the three Methods imply that these work for resources but do not STATE that they work for program updates.
[Unless for each update you reinstall - but the object is for less INTERNET activity - and we might not notice a very small update (one file bug fix for example)]
It is a start [or workaround] until Logos adds an official way for both resources and program updates
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David Ames said:
But the instructions do not have a <<start here if adding to existing instance>> label
David Ames said:Also the headings for the three Methods imply that these work for resources but do not STATE that they work for program updates.
The stated purpose of the procedures is "Quick Installation onto Multiple Computers"; hence the absence of information about other possible uses eg. when 4.2 goes Gold I will use Method 2 to update my laptop 4.1 installation; which most users recognise can be done or they ask for confirmation.
I also skip Step 2 to save re-indexing on my laptop. If I download a few resources to the desktop master I don't mind the laptop doing the small amount of indexing for those, but if bibles are downloaded I may avoid the additional indexing load and just copy the whole index from the desktop! And it is not necessary to copy the \Logos4\Documents folder for these scenarios!
Thus, it is important to keep the methods simple for the stated purpose, recognising that these are unsupported by Logos.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Richard DeRuiter said:
1) How big tells me how long the download and indexing may take. This is a work-flow issue. I may decide to delay until later, so I can keep working on my research for now, and take a coffee break to do the download. For small downloads this is not an issue, for large ones it can be.
I agree
Richard DeRuiter said:2) Telling me what is being updated let's me know if I'm downloading any new resources, and which resources are being updated. I always want to know, if I'm getting that pre-pub I was notified about
I agree
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I for one, still do not accept the all-or-nothing idea used by Logos4, unlike Logos3.
To me, this suggests not enough design was done at the lower file/metadata/transfer levels of the design.
Maybe Logos5 will get this right. The version4 way of dealing with downloads is boken in my view. A disapointed customer ...
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Bob Pritchett said:
So the only question is, "Do I want this now?" And that questions seems to be 100% about your bandwidth; because if bandwidth is not an issue, then the answer should always be yes. And if bandwidth is an issue, then make the decision based on your bandwidth scheduling. If there's anything so big/important/urgent that you would blow past your bandwidth caps to get it, that information will be readily available in a blog post, forum post, release notes, etc. that you can consult before turning updates on.I've read this thread with interest. I'm making a return to the forums after a bad experience when I raised some concerns about the Mac alpha product, and I'm pleasantly surprised to see that a great deal of the heat seems to have trickled out of the forums, to be replaced by some light and more civility.
I wanted to share the perspective of a user from outside North America. I live in Australia, where internet access is getting better, but doesn't approach the sort of speeds, bandwidth or universality you lucky people in North America enjoy.
Until recently, the biggest plan my ISP offered me was 55GB in peak, and 55GB in off-peak time. That has since changed (a lot), but I'd observe that I choose to have the highest speeds available to domestic users, and the highest bandwidth (and pay handsomely for the privilege) - most people don't.
In Australia ISPs commonly manage demand by employing a peak/off-peak quota - peak from about 0700 to 0100, off-peak from about 0100 to 0700. It varies a little from ISP to ISP.
The advantage I see in allowing us to see what will be downloaded and how large it is, is to schedule the download for off-peak times. Now, I don't need to worry about that sort of thing, but I know most Australian users would need to consider it, or risk using all of their quota in a short time (which means shaping, which is generally 33k in Australia).
I've no doubt we in Australia make up a minute portion of the user base for Logos, so our needs have to be balanced against the commercial realities. I just thought I'd share our perspective.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Yes, we can do all this. But it is not simple and, at least how I see it, will result in more process overhead at Logos, making us less efficient, more interruptive messages in the UI, confusing more users, and a lot of telling 98% of our users details they don't care about, since they can't do anything except accept/reject the whole download.
I deeply appreciate the organisational focus at Logos. There is no doubt that this is part of what is making Logos an industry leader.
For many of us, this boils down to simple practicals of how to manage the bandwidth hungry aspect of L4. Working in Africa where connecting to the internet to do large downloads is rare and precious, we need to know whether we should even attempt the download and we need to know if it is worth the effort/trouble or not. It is very difficult (sometimes impossible) and expensive. I think the argument of selective downloads is understandable and I'm not pushing for this. However, just being informed as a user what the update is seems like a reasonable compromise.
No other programme on my Mac is this way. For example, I probably have 750MB of Apple updates waiting to be downloaded. Because of the design of the system, I know what that they are and how big they are. Nothing currently on that list is important enough to be or adds enough stability/functionality to cause me to try to download them. Using other packages, I know that there is a 50MB update for Devonthink and another large update for another Bible Programme. Both are minor fixes for bugs which I have not encountered. I am going to have to leave them until I get back to Europe or North America. L4 is different. I can't decide whether it is important enough or not unless I troll the forums/wiki for information. Even then, because of differences between the Windows and Mac platforms, it is not always clear. I know it is a pain for Logos to provide this kind of information to me, but it is reality that some of us struggle with.
Aside from the dynamics of managing bandwidth in Africa, knowing what is being updated can also help the user get more out of the programme believe it or not. Knowing that a resource has just been updated brings attention to that resource in a new way and at least for me might cause me to dig about the resource as a result. I know this is a small thing, but this can potentially highlight benefits to the user that might otherwise go unnoticed.
Anyhow, I haven't written on this subject for probably six months. I've said my piece and will leave it again for now! L4 is a brilliant software package though, and I'm very happy in general.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
For many of us, this boils down to simple practicals of how to manage the bandwidth hungry aspect of L4. Working in Africa where connecting to the internet to do large downloads is rare and precious
The 4.2a beta has introduced patching for updated resources which makes the download much smaller eg 7.4 MB instead of 68 MB! If you have Auto Download Updates = NO the notification includes the size of the download. Scheduling is also introduced -- check threads in the PC Beta forum for more details (not sure about the Mac forum!).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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