AI Searches

Rol Erickson

I've been playing around with the AI search engine but so far not getting the results I anticipated. Yes, it is ok for very simplistic summaries but for searching my library if often comes up empty.

For example I compared Logos AI with Meta AI which comes with messenger in my search comparison. I have close to 2k in books including the entire collection of Early Church Fathers etc for Logos AI search and Meta just searched the internet.

I asked both the following:

What were St. Augustine's views on creation?

This is what Logos AI gave from an “All” search after returning nothing from a "book" search:

The articles do not directly address St. Augustine's views on creation. While Augustine wrote extensively on various theological topics, including Christology[1] and the Trinity[2], the provided texts do not contain specific information about his views on creation. One article mentions that Augustine developed a spiritual exegesis of the creation story in Genesis to counter Manichean criticisms, interpreting the command to "reproduce and multiply" as initially referring to "spiritual reproduction" rather than physical procreation[3]. Another article notes that Augustine later revised this interpretation in his commentary "On Genesis according to the Letter," giving a more "physical" interpretation of the Genesis 1 injunction[3]. However, the articles do not provide detailed information about Augustine's overall views on creation. To get a comprehensive understanding of Augustine's perspective on creation, a different set of sources would be needed.

[1] Sailer, W., Christman, J. C., Greulich, D. C., Scanlin, H. P., Lennox, S. J., & Guistwite, P. (2012). Religious and Theological Abstracts. Religious and Theological Abstracts.

[2] O’callaghan, J. P. (2007). Imago Dei: A Test Case for St. Thomas’s Augustinianism. In M. Dauphinais, B. David, & M. Levering (Eds.), Aquinas the Augustinian (p. 102). The Catholic University of America Press.

[3] Clark, E. A. (1999). Asceticism. In A. D. Fitzgerald (Ed.), Augustine through the Ages: An Encyclopedia (p. 69). William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

I'm disappointed when I do the comparison so not sure if others are having similar results or if I'm just not asking correctly but I asked both the identical straightforward simple question. What Meta AI produced in my opinion is theologically sound and a very good summary.

This is what I got from messenger Meta AI that included specific citations from Augustine"s works:

Saint Augustine's views on creation are complex and multifaceted, but I'll try to give you a brief overview. In "The City of God" and other works, Augustine developed a theological framework for understanding creation that was influenced by his Christian faith, Platonic philosophy, and biblical interpretation.

Here are some key aspects of his views on creation:

1. *Creation out of nothing*: Augustine believed that God created the universe out of nothing (ex nihilo), emphasizing the idea that God is the sole creator and sustainer of all existence.

2. *Simultaneous creation*: He argued that God created all things simultaneously, including time itself, rather than in a sequential or gradual process. This view is often referred to as "instantaneous creation."

3. *Seminal principles*: Augustine proposed that God created the universe with "seminal principles" (rationes seminales), which are like seeds or potentials that contain the blueprints for all future development and growth. This idea allowed him to reconcile the biblical account of creation with the observed complexity and diversity of the natural world.

4. *Interpretation of Genesis*: Augustine offered a non-literal, allegorical interpretation of the creation story in Genesis, focusing on the spiritual and theological significance of the text rather than its scientific or historical accuracy.

5. *Teleology*: He saw creation as having a purpose or direction (telos), with all things being ordered towards their ultimate goal, which is the glory and praise of God.

Augustine's views on creation have had a profound impact on Western theology and philosophy, influencing thinkers such as Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, and many others. Would you like to know more about his theology or philosophical ideas?

They also provided detailed sources from his books and others when asked for sources:

I'm a large language model, my responses are generated based on my training data, and I don't always provide explicit citations. However, I can give you some sources that support the summary I provided on Saint Augustine's views on creation:

1. *Creation out of nothing*: This concept is discussed in Augustine's work "Confessions" (Book 12, Chapter 7-13) and "The City of God" (Book 11, Chapter 4-6). [1]

2. *Simultaneous creation*: Augustine argues for simultaneous creation in "The City of God" (Book 11, Chapter 5-6) and "On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis" (Book 5, Chapter 5). [2]

3. *Seminal principles*: The concept of seminal principles is discussed in "On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis" (Book 6, Chapter 10-12) and "The City of God" (Book 12, Chapter 26). [3]

4. *Interpretation of Genesis*: Augustine's non-literal interpretation of Genesis is presented in "On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis" and "Confessions" (Book 12, Chapter 14-31). [4]

5. *Teleology*: Augustine's teleological views on creation are discussed in "The City of God" (Book 11, Chapter 21-22) and "On the Nature of the Good" (Chapter 3-4). [5]

Some recommended sources for further reading:

- Augustine, A. (1998). The City of God. (H. Bettenson, Trans.). New York: Penguin Books.

- Augustine, A. (2002). On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis. (E. Hill, Trans.). Hyde Park, NY: New City Press.

- Augustine, A. (1991). Confessions. (H. Chadwick, Trans.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

- Teske, R. J. (1999). Augustine's theory of creation. In A. D. Fitzgerald (Ed.), Augustine through the Ages: An Encyclopedia (pp. 247-251). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

- O'Connell, R. J. (1987). St. Augustine's Early Theory of Man, A.D. 386-391. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.

Please note that the citations provided are not exhaustive, and there are many other sources that discuss Augustine's views on creation.

References:

[1] Augustine, A. (1991). Confessions. (H. Chadwick, Trans.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

[2] Augustine, A. (2002). On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis. (E. Hill, Trans.). Hyde Park, NY: New City Press.

[3] Augustine, A. (2002). On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis. (E. Hill, Trans.). Hyde Park, NY: New City Press.

[4] Augustine, A. (1991). Confessions. (H. Chadwick, Trans.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

[5] Augustine, A. (1999). On the Nature of the Good. (A. W. Ziegler, Trans.). In A. D. Fitzgerald (Ed.), Augustine through the Ages: An Encyclopedia (pp. 604-606). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

Meta concluded with: I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any further questions.

Thoughts or suggestions? Which would you use? Also, I have the Max version.

Thanks!

MJ. Smith

Logos is providing an AI assisted search of Logos resources; Meta is not a search but a chat bot against an LLM. To compare them is to compare persimmons to durians - both are fruit but they have little else in common. You can find several threads in this forum emphasizing and comparing the difference.

Which would you use?

I use Logos when I don't know enough to create a precise search but need to find the right vocabulary across denominations to formulate a precise search. I use Perplexity when I want to create text to copy into a post on a topic that I know well enough to judge the accuracy AND when I know next to nothing and want to find a starting point for a rabbit trail to the information I am seeking.

Rol Erickson

Thanks for your reply and follow up comments M.J.

It looks like I must not have made myself clear as I was just evaluating the utility of using Logos AI for searching my own library and posed a question that I already knew the answer to and was well versed in.

As I stated the results were not satisfactory and I was surprised that Logos AI didn't even identify any of Augustine writings from my own library. Using a precise search is great for scripture and highly structured sources such as lexicons and commentaries but not so much for monographs from my experience, which was what I was hoping from the Logos AI.

I thought perhaps my question was not sound for AI and thought on a whim I would pose it in Meta which was on my phone. It was the first time I had used it. I knew Augustine's writings were in public domain and accessible to any chatbox. To my surprise it produced the results along with suggested additional readings that I was anticipating from logos AI.

I did discover from John Fallahee who teaches the learnlogos series that he recommends conducting an initial search in Logos and then follow up with a Chatbox , Claude, or some other chatbox or AI model for more endepth research.

Bottom line is results, no matter what the tool. I didn't get the results I was hoping for to leverage against the content in my library.

I'm new to AI as I've been avoiding it because of what I've read about reliability issues but mainly due to privacy concerns. I teach at a Christian university and decided I needed to understand more about its capabilities as students use or misuse it in their research.

Thanks again for your follow up.

MJ. Smith

Ah, yes - because I think of it as a search not a chat bot I structure my query much differently. I "ask" creation in Augustine and get

Augustine of Hippo, a prominent early Christian theologian, developed a robust doctrine of creation that significantly influenced medieval and Reformation theology[1]. He staunchly defended the biblical concept of creation against Greek philosophical ideas, asserting that God's act of creation was voluntary, purposive, and ex nihilo (out of nothing)[2]. Augustine argued that the universe had a beginning, rejecting the notion of an eternal material world[2]. He maintained that God created both time and space simultaneously and interdependently, an insight that anticipated modern scientific theories[3]. Augustine's interpretation of Genesis 1-2 evolved throughout his career, with works like "The Literal Meaning of Genesis" attempting to understand Scripture on its own terms, rather than accommodating contemporary scientific theories[4]. His doctrine of creation ex nihilo allowed him to reject Manichean dualism and modify neo-Platonism for Christian theology[1]. Augustine emphasized the goodness of God's original creation, including the material world, while acknowledging its fallen state[2]. He saw creation as destined to find fulfillment through a free response to the Creator, underlining the importance of the creature-Creator relationship in all religious actions[5].

[1] David Fergusson, Creation, ed. Alan G. Padgett et al., Guides to Theology (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2014), 21.
[2] R. C. Sproul, The Consequences of Ideas: Understanding the Concepts That Shaped Our World (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2000), 61.
[3] Timothy George and Daniel Chang, “Theology for an Age of Terror: Augustine’s Words after the ‘Barbarian’ Destruction of Rome Have a Remarkably Contemporary Ring,” Christianity Today (Carol Stream, IL: Christianity Today International, 2006), 80.
[4] Alister McGrath, Mere Theology: Christian Faith and the Discipleship of the Mind (London: SPCK, 2010), 111.
[5] Aidan Nichols, Lovely, like Jerusalem: The Fulfillment of the Old Testament in Christ and the Church (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2007), 203.

If I want to direct it to a particular item I might query Augustine creation "ex nihilo"

Augustine is credited with developing a vivid formulation of the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) in his Confessions, though he was not the first to assert this concept[1]. The doctrine maintains that God created the world without any preexisting materials, in contrast to Greek philosophical views of creation as ordering eternal matter[2]. This idea emerged in Christian thought as early as the second century CE, with the Shepherd of Hermas implying creation ex nihilo[3]. Early church fathers like Irenaeus, Origen, and Tertullian championed this doctrine to counter Gnostic notions and emphasize God's sovereignty[3][4]. The concept is rooted in biblical passages, particularly in the New Testament, though its presence in the Old Testament is debated[1][5]. Creation ex nihilo distinguishes Christianity from ancient Near Eastern creation myths and Greek philosophical concepts, asserting God's unique authority as the sole ground of all existence[4].

[1] Philip J. Hefner, “The Creation,” in Christian Dogmatics, ed. Carl E. Braaten and Robert W. Jenson, vol. 1 (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 2011), 309.
[2] Stanley Grenz, David Guretzki, and Cherith Fee Nordling, Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1999), 32.
[3] Anne M. Clifford, “Creation,” in Systematic Theology: Roman Catholic Perspectives, ed. Francis Schüssler Fiorenza and John P. Galvin, Second Edition (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2011), 215.
[4] Justin Stratis, “Creation Ex Nihilo,” in Lexham Survey of Theology, ed. Mark Ward et al. (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018).
[5] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 366.

I'll admit to knowing more than an average amount on the inner logical workings of AI, but you should be able to formulate your search terms to leverage your library in useful and sometimes surprising ways,

Aaron Hamilton

To compare them is to compare persimmons to durians

Whatever happened to apples & oranges?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1357465#Comment_1357465

Well, that's easy! Folks are often familiar with apples and oranges.

But Logos AI search (basically re-ordering results) vs not-Logos AI searches (doing actual AI with LLM) equates to the unusual comparison.

Notice how the Logos one had to be re-worded.

DMB

[Blank post]

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1357468#Comment_1357468

Me too.

MJ. Smith

But Logos AI search (basically re-ordering results) vs not-Logos AI searches (doing actual AI with LLM) equates to the unusual comparison.

Not a bad description for someone without the feature. But an actual comparison of a search with and without AI assistance:

But you are absolutely right - apples and oranges has a common sense of the degree of absurdity. Here the absurdity is based on a lack of understanding both how chatbots work and what Logos intends in their implementation. "persimmons to durians" is intended to indicate we are far outside a simple apples to oranges error in thought.

Rol Erickson

Thanks for the examples. I'll have to play around with it some more as I guess I misunderstood how the AI search functions.