The New Forum Remains a Disaster (exaggerating)

DMB · 2025-02-06T14:06:22+00:00

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I added a note to a thread I started. Then edited. Then of course, the forum app has major problems, if you edit your note (no fancy … just text, no references, images, etc … zippo).

Anyway, it's solution was to delete the whole thread .. not just the final post. By the time I realized the app was back to its evil ways, I hadn't screen-copied the fake-error message (document the the app's problems).

Unlike the older forum which sort of documented solutions/workarounds/discussions, the new is at best, basically just a comment collection site. Which is fine.

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Jerry Bush

I am an admitted Logos apologist and rarely find something to criticize. But the new forums have drastically cut my time using them. Maybe that is a good thing for me. 🤣

DMB

For me, the new forum drastically cut finding useful information! Disappears down the white space pretty quickly.

But after my deleted thread this morning, I went battling Logos.com. I wanted to see if FL had another Mark Smith volume (before I Amazon'd it). Lordy. First I had to use Google to find Mark Smith in Logos.com (the Logos search is abysmal). Then, finding an example Smith volume, I clicked on the author name (Mark S. Smith). That's when Logos.com left planet earth. Amazon it is. I'm just tired of FL … it's more and more bugs.

EastTN

I have to agree - the new forum platform is not good.

Jason Stone (Logos)

the forum app has major problems, if you edit your note

An update should be released today to resolve the issue with edits disappearing, and several other bugs, @DMB.

Jason Stone (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356897#Comment_1356897

That is not what we hoped to hear, given the release of our new community platform. I'm curious: what has resulted in you using the new space less?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356902#Comment_1356902

Well, no offense, Jason, but these errors and error messages look like alpha-testing. I'll hold my breath.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356904#Comment_1356904

Jason,

I also used to spend at least 15-30 minute every day perusing the old forums, keeping up with new releases, user issues, suggestions, and other general Bible/Christian discussion topics.

I don't know what is it about the new forums, but like many other users I found myself rarely having the urge to check in anymore.

Many people point to the excessive white space, but I suspect it might be deeper than that. Thinking back, with the old forums, I would check in once or more each day, and I was guaranteed to see a simple list of 15-20 threads with newest updates, and I would click on the ones that interest me, and occasionally I post a reply. I would also check on the threads that I responded to, to see if there were further replies. I've had this daily habit for many many years.

Yes, the old forum software felt dated. I wish I didn't have to scroll past the long list of sub-forums that didn't interest me, but it's 2-3 scrolls of the mouse wheel; I can live with that. Yes, I wish the search function was better, but there was the Google search workaround. Yes, it would have been nice for the forum and Feedbear voting to be more integrated, but it wasn't the worst thing.

But with the new forum, I tried for a while to keep perusing it every day like I used to. But it seems like every day it's the same few threads that got any updates. And they were mostly topics I'm not interested in. I tried setting my browser bookmark to either the forum home page, or the View All link, and it's the same: no new, fresh, interesting content. Maybe I'm not browsing to the correct link to see all the latest updates? I wish I could just see updates on Logos, Mobile, Beta, Chinese, and that's it…

But I'm afraid the new forum is more like a mall where for various reasons fewer and fewer people are going to, and that's why no matter what changes the mall owner tries to implement, the traffic and interest level is just going downhill. It feels like the energy and enthusiasm is just no longer there, for whatever reason, for both the declining mall and the Logos forums.

Jason, you must have access to the traffic pattern to the old and new forums. Are the click/visits statistics also telling a story of declining traffic since the switchover? Or am I just not going to the right sections of the forum where the busy foot traffic is?

Ben

my experience is almost identical to PL above. I had a lot of complaints about the old software but at least it was usable. New software is no improvement if it disincentivizes you from using it.

Tom Reynolds

I think there is a disconnect between the intended audience of this forum software and Logos users. By nature of Logos being a library program the users are mostly text-based whereas this software is trying to appeal to the visual mobile user. If you want to appeal to bibliophiles you need forum software that acts like a book, in my opinion. BTW there's a $10k consulting fee for that opinion. :-)

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356937#Comment_1356937

Good observation.

Jason Stone (Logos)

Thanks a bunch for sharing your thoughts and feedback! It’s totally normal for people to have different opinions on the new forum, and that’s what makes it so great. One thing I can say for sure is that reporting on traffic shows that more people are interacting than ever before. So, even if some of the formatting or colors don’t quite hit the spot, overall our community engagement is on the rise as we continue to adjust and improve features like design and navigation. So, it’s not quite a declining mall, just a little makeover!

Interesting… so maybe the new forum is gearing toward and engaging a new generation of Logos users and somehow is not proving "sticky" for us old timers… That's fine by me.

Jason, if Logos is satisfied with the current forum traffic level, that's fine. But I sincerely hope you will dig deeper into the engagement stats, e.g. old time users vs newer users (you can probably find the 50 most active users on the old platform); stickiness level (how much time/clicks/views do users spend on the old vs new platform per day/per visit)… perhaps consider inviting some of the old time active users to a focus group to understand their usage dropoff, etc.

The reason why I emphasize the engagement level of the old time users on the new platform is because they're the ones who tend to provide the most added value to the forums.

Lew Worthington

PL expressed many of my concerns and experiences. Formerly, my access to see what threads I would read was dictated by the emails I received. I received emails only from the subforums I cared about.

And I'm certainly not the only one reading fewer posts. With the old software (old indeed; I know it had to go), just about every question I posted was answered by someone. Now, some of my questions go without answers. I think not many people are seeing them. I get it: It is hard to see what is out there that's pertinent.

Several of the critiques I've had have not been addressed. I haven't had trouble with errors, but getting to relevant discussions is laborious. The aforementioned lack of specific email reminders is huge for me. Formerly, I wouldn't have to enter the website if I didn't see anything worth looking at. Now, I have no idea.

Also, as I've mentioned several times before, the alert bell icon does not correlate to anything else reliably. Right now, I see 65 un-cleared alerts, but only 30 show up in the dropdown that appears when I click the bell. If I click the "All Notifications" link to get to the bottom 35 I can't see in the dropdown, nothing happens to the number on the bell, and the list of threads in the dropdown is not replicated in the resulting page. I know there's a logic to it, but it's not a logic that makes a lot of sense to me.

The white space SEEMS almost universal as a criticism target as PL points out, and it often seems puzzling that it hasn't been improved. But, as he also points out, that's not the biggest deal.

Those are the main things from my point of view. There are other things, and I'm sure you sometimes feel like your drinking from a firehose with all the suggestions from us "experts". 😉 There are a bunch of improvements that are often overlooked, chief among them might be that issues like the ones we're talking about can be fixed.

I hope this all doesn't sound too brutal. Everyone on this thread up to this point are well-established users who love talking about this product with other users. And it's got to be tough handling all of us! I wish you the best!

Lew (Happy-to-have-retired-from-web-development) Worthington

This latest update is more awful than the initial move to the new forum. I was beginning to get used to the new look, and now we have so much busyness everywhere in the UI, it's become very unpleasant to read. There are sidebarss and buttons and icons everywhere and it's an extra effort to just read a thread from start to finish. What ever happened to the KISS principle?? The worst things are that all the footers (sigs) now look like they're part of the text of the message, which makes reading much harder, and the white space and line spacing has gotten even more plentiful, intrusive, and wasteful now. And they still haven't fixed the input on the Android tablet browser where all the text duplicates. Sorry, but I'm not a fan.

Jason Stone (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356969#Comment_1356969

Thanks @RJ! We’ll revert the signatures to their original state and back our lovely blue background for comments to keep things tidy. A new update is actively being rolled out.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356918#Comment_1356918

but these errors and error messages look like alpha-testing.

Speaking of testing… giving this new reply functionality a try.

I'll hold my breath.

I never did enjoy holding my breath. Seemed like an unnecessary form of self-punishment. On another note, this reply functionality may be the solution for partial quotes. Don't need to mention who I'm quoting since I assume this comment will sit nicely under yours when I'm finished.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356973#Comment_1356973

Don't need to mention who I'm quoting since I assume this comment will sit nicely under yours when I'm finished.

Of course if someone were to reply to a reply… hmm… might get confusing

Jason Stone (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356974#Comment_1356974

Or, a reply to a reply might fit nicely in place!

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356975#Comment_1356975

Yes, I agree that it fits nicely in place. But I do think confusion remains. I would advocate for a small line at the top that says "replying to so-and-so" around where the timestamp is. I think that would maintain clarity as the list of replies grows.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356973#Comment_1356973

Is it obvious who I am replying to now?

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356918#Comment_1356918

no offense

Truly, apologies if all of these replies are a bother. This is the last one. Testing.

David Bailey

The new forum reminds me of blog sites more than forum discussion sites.

Jason Stone (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356977#Comment_1356977

Yes, it appears to me you are replying to yourself because of a blue line that connects your reply.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356981#Comment_1356981

So users will have to trace the blue line from now on? seems less than ideal. Very much so.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356981#Comment_1356981

It seems like the idea of connecting lines might be modeled after Reddit. I guess, if it works for them… maybe it's just a matter of getting used to it? On the other hand, people do much more specific referencing/quoting of others on these forums than what takes place over there. That makes it all the more important to know who exactly is being replied to.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356979#Comment_1356979

I think you wasted your time .. with the new efficiency I hit the 'newest' and never see your post.

Now, luckily, you're just testing, and I did breath!

Of course, the evil app got me again. I left my session.valid permit at the library yesterday.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356969#Comment_1356969

Agree RJ.

What's so good is I now just hit the 'newest' button and magically, all the thread replies just magically disappear (somewhere down in the thread, who knows where).

I also like the part, where, if it's oldest first in a thread, it's newest first for replies. That'll keep people on their toes!

Jason Stone (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1357033#Comment_1357033

When you view replies by “Newest,” you’ll see the most recent one right next to the others. It wouldn’t make sense to see a reply all by itself based on post time alone. Context is everything!

Jason Stone (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1357032#Comment_1357032

When viewing replies by “Newest,” the most recent one appears nested under or next to others. Post time alone doesn’t make sense for a reply to stand alone.

I'll report your session.valid permission error to our dev team to get that sorted ASAP. Thank you, @DMB!

Jerry Bush

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1356904#Comment_1356904

Jason - I am not sure I can pinpoint one thing. But I have one example: When I wanted to quote/respond to you, I had to hit quote but then I had to scroll to the bottom of the page to write what I'm writing now. Seems like it should have gone to the bottom automatically. That certainly is one small things but there are many thing that add up, I suppose.

The old forums needed fixing for sure. What I am saying is that I am not compelled to use the new ones like I did. I would sometimes spend 20 minutes a day reading posts and now it is sometimes no minutes per day or maybe 5 or so. It's nothing to do with the look. I wish I had more to say because my response here is not very helpful. But again, I don't have the desire to spend times on the forum like I used to.

Jason Stone (Logos)

I had to hit quote but then I had to scroll to the bottom of the page to write what I'm writing now.

@Jerry Bush, I just tested this numerous times throughout the community site (including this thread here) and when I clicked quote it took me to the bottom of the page to write my comment response. I'm using Chrome on a Macbook Air. If you can give me more information about the device and browser you are using, maybe we can pinpoint the issue here.

Jerry Bush

I thought of 2 more things. These have nothing to do with the design of the forums:

- There seems to be more complaining about things from people and I get sick of that. Most the revolve around subscriptions (which I am totally fine with), and the new toolbar (which I love).

- This is hard to explain, but it seems like the tone of the forums is different. This may have to do with the above. But in general there seems to be less patience among the members (not Logos folks). Things feel less friendly to me. I realize this is totally subjective.

Lew Worthington

@Jerry Bush, I kind of felt that vibe, too. And if I have seemed a little curt at times, I hope folks will find space to forgive me. I've tried to let my speech be gracious and seasoned with salt. (An interesting metaphor; I'm glad we have to passage guide to help.) 😉

But: (1) there are some growing pains with the new forum software and with the new business model. Whether its human nature for many customers to dislike change or just feeling comfortable with old discomforts (such as the old forum) I don't know. But as the changes are implemented, I agree that there seems to be a lack of patience while things grow. And: (2) I still remember some folks in the distant past who seemed to exude a spirit that — even to this day — has encouraged me to never read their posts. Rudeness is not a new invention, IMO.

I also agree that the Logos company people have been wonderfully patient.

I appreciate your brining up the need to communicate with patience and kindness.