Shame on LOGOS

Church Dogmatics, 14 Vol Print Edition as Commented on on LOGOS Ad Page now $99.99 at CBD Christian Books
Distributers - Christianboosk.com

Logos Price Aprox $700 - Shame

Don't Blast me.... Especially if you do not know Public Domain - Printing Book cost - E-book Production.

Pray for the LOGOS managers and owners. All of them are nice guys. Pray they remember LOGOS is not just a business. Their users are Preachers of God's Word, Theologians and Teachers, Apologetist for God, and people in need of God's word. Their efforts is not just a business, it is a ministry. What profit margin do you place on that.

God Bless.

Fred Morgan

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Comments

Jeremy

That price does seem kind of high. Can anyone who actually knows how Logos goes about pricing explain (even though I'm sure it has been discussed before) how Logos' prices are more expensive than regular books?

With that said, Logos is a business, not a ministry. Just because it is run by Christians does not make it a ministry.

Blair Laird

CBD is having a special sale on the set, that is why the price is so low. Amazon has the set for $626.00 which is very close to the logos price.

http://www.amazon.com/Church-Dogmatics-vols-Karl-Barth/dp/B001J9NJ7W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287356497&sr=8-1

If you notice here this is the original price at CBD $720.00

http://www.christianbook.com/church-dogmatics-14-volumes/karl-barth/9780567058096/pd/058093?item_code=WW&netp_id=333677&event=ESRCN&view=details

But here is the sale price

http://www.christianbook.com/church-dogmatics-14-volumes/karl-barth/9781598564426/pd/564426?kw=karl%20barth%20church%20dogmatics&event=PPCSRC&p=1018818&cm_mmc=Google-_-Academic-_-sets%20general-_-karl%20barth%20church%20dogmatics&gclid=CIvZicCB26QCFQULbAodflY6LQ

That is a great deal that you found, but the average price is what Logos is selling it for. There is no need to bad mouth anyone here.

spitzerpl

I'm not sure I fully understand.

If I go by the pictures on both Logos and Christianbook.com those versions of Barth's Church Dogmatics is $720 @ CBD and $700 at Logos. There seems to be another version of it at CBD for $99 but that is at a 90% discount. It could just as easily be CBD reducing the price below cost as it could be Logos raising the price above cost.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183480#Comment_183480

Folks, lets take a breath here, Logos was talking about Berkouwer's Dogmatics NOT Karl Barth's Dogmatics. Berkouwer's Dogmatics is out of print and is available only by "print by demand" from Eerdmans and for what volumes are left in the pipeline sell for approx. in the high twenty's on Amazon.

Concerning Barth, the Hendrickson edition is the older first edition not the new greatly revised editon that sells for 349.99 in the paperback edition.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183483#Comment_183483

Then, what is Berkouwer’s Studies in Dogmatics (14 Vols.) - which is in the library of those of you who have Platinum and Portfolio?

Peace!

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183485#Comment_183485

[:D] Blessings in Christ alone...

I am not sure I understand your question Milford.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183485#Comment_183485

The edition selling for $100 on CBD (plus $50 shipping charge) is a reprint (by Hendrickson) of the first edition from forty years ago, not the current one:

"Hendrickson is reproducing the original 14-volume set edited by T.F. Torrance and G.W. Bromiley first published more than forty years ago by T&T Clark. The Hendrickson edition will contain the entire 14-volume set and all its contents, or the entire Church Dogmatics as it was originally published by T&T Clark. "

It looks like a loss leader since it's on sale from the regular retail price of $995. It's net yet released (coming Oct 20), so maybe this is just a short-time sale to encourage early buyers, the way Logos does pre-pub prices.

The current revised edition in paperback is selling on CBD for $720 and on Amazon (only on the secondary market) for anywhere between $527 and $1400. The new T&T Clark edition is nearly $1000. Logos's price seems well within the acceptable range, especially considering all the tagging work they need to do to get it into Logos format.

Besides, contacting a Logos sales rep by phone or email will likely get you a significant discount off the price offered on the Logos website. I won't tell you what I paid for it (and I didn't get it in pre-pub which would have been ideal), but I will say it was nowhere near $700.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183485#Comment_183485

Then, what is Berkouwer’s Studies in Dogmatics (14 Vols.) - which is in the library of those of you who have Platinum and Portfolio?

That's a completely different set by a different author. Similar in that they are both on systematic theology (aka dogmatics). But Berkouwer and Barth are as different as Donald Bloesch and Millard Erickson. Some people like to own multiple books of dogmatic theology, to get different perspectives.

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183492#Comment_183492

This thread has a really bold title for such a reasonable explanation by the 2nd reply. Maybe we can all learn something about message boards and conclusion jumping for the future. I noticed some rather harsh key words too.

Either way I'm not sure this is effective communication. [sn]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183497#Comment_183497

This thread has a really bold title for such a reasonable explanation by the 2nd reply. Maybe we can all learn something about message boards and conclusion jumping for the future. I noticed some rather harsh key words too.

Either way I'm not sure this is effective communication.

Thanks, Paul.

We must all remember, too, that these threads stay on the Internet forever. Even after Logos has addressed complaints people have, which they are very good about doing, any bad taste from people's initial experience lingers on the web and can affect other people's first impressions of the company.

And has been mentioned before, while Logos does provide a needed service to those who are in ministry, it is not a non-profit organization itself. It doesn't have donors supporting it as a ministry would have. It needs to make a profit to pay its employees, keep the servers running, etc. In short, it needs to charge fair market value prices in order to stay in business.

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183497#Comment_183497

Maybe we can all learn something about message boards and conclusion jumping for the future.

Agreed. Unfortunately, I have found this suggestion out the hard way before. I have learned that it is usually best for me to frame my discontent into the context of a question because 99% of the time I learn something and it is not as I had thought. [:$]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183492#Comment_183492

The edition selling for $100 on CBD (plus $50 shipping charge) is a reprint (by Hendrickson)

I think it is common knowledge among regular buyers of CBD specials that these reprint specials frequently have the original typesetting and blurry fonts. They do not rework them and they are not near as useful as a tagged, digital version.

Other times CBD dumps a title for a great loss to clear the shelves. The Complete Library of Christian Worship (8 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/5774 is offered by Logos for $199. CBD had the hardback version for similar retail prices. One day they decided to clear the shelves and offered each of the hardbacks for $5 each (a loss to them for sure.) They also offered the 43 volume Hermeneia CD-Rom (Libronix format) for $99 clearance, before the new set was released. (No, I missed out on that one. [:'(] ) There is no law or ethic that binds Logos to another company's pricing structure.

Friedrich

Don't Blast me....

Fred, have the above explanations changed your understanding of the situation at all?

God Bless

Likewise to you. Peace.

Dan

Todd Phillips

Don't Blast me.... Especially if you do
not know Public Domain - Printing Book cost - E-book Production.

Fred,

It's
far cheaper to reprint an old public domain book than it is to
digitally publish one. To reprint, all one has do is scan the pages of
an old book and use that to print copies, akin to a photocopier.

HOWEVER,
to digitally publish an old book, one has to scan the pages, then run text recognition on the pages, then the digital text has to be
laboriously corrected and proof-read because text recognition is not
perfect. In fact, sometimes it's easier to type it all in from scratch
(I think Logos does some of this), often with two separate typists whose
work is then compared to catch errors. When that is done, Logos isn't
finished, because all Bible references need to be tagged, then all cross
references need to be tagged, then the layout is reworked to match the
original work and make it visually appealing. Then, the digital book
needs to be tested and proof-read again.

Furthermore, the Logos edition of Barth's Dogmatics is still under copyright by T&T Clark (part of Continuum now) because it's a revised translation (from the German), and it's reformatted, and they've provided English translation of other languages (Greek, Latin, Hebrew and French) with the original alongside. Because T&T Clark holds the copyright, they are the ones setting the price in this case--not Logos.

I commend Logos for what they are doing. I find some of the PD resources to be too expensive also, but that's the nature of the technology. But I wouldn't assign shame to them for this. Far from it.

If anything, a kindly worded letter to the copyright holder (T&T Clark/Continuum) suggesting they lower their prices might be a better ploy. Though I wouldn't count on it, since publishers are struggling with both the economy and the falling demand for paper books.

(Edited to remove inaccurate statements)

DAL

If you notice Christian book is giving you a sale price now, but it's originally $720: http://www.christianbook.com/church-dogmatics-14-volumes/karl-barth/9780567058096/pd/058093?item_code=WW&netp_id=333677&event=ESRCN&show_all_cr=1#customer_reviews

The Logos set is $699.95: http://www.logos.com/products/details/2607

I do agree that logos sells some volumes way too expensive. I read a comment somewhere, I can't seem to find it, that John Butler's pre-pub on Hebrews-Revelation volume has a Logos price tag of $34.95 when other softwares already have it and are selling it for $15 bucks and the print edition for $16.99 because the retail is $25 bucks everywhere else for the whole Hebrews-Revelation volume. So I wonder where in the world did logos get a suggested retail price of $146.25 on a volume that's basically just outlines with some comments in between. Anyway, other than that, I'm happy with what I've got. Plus, I have no use for Karl Barth's dogmatics anyway, so I'm not gonna worry about the price.

Chris Thompson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183524#Comment_183524

I have no use for Karl Barth's dogmatics anyway, so I'm not gonna worry about the price.

That was blunt!!! [:P] It made me giggle. [:P]

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183526#Comment_183526

LOL...sure, blunt but not mean. I hope nobody gets their feelings hurt...[:)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183524#Comment_183524

If you notice Christian book is giving you a sale price now,

Yeah, I noticed. But you'd have a long wait searching the whole set and organizing your results. Say, 3 years? [:S]

I have no use for Karl Barth's dogmatics anyway, so I'm not gonna worry about the price.

[:-*]

I'd like to be able to criticize Barth more accurately. So I do have an interest in buying his dogmatics at a cheap price. He was one of the last century's more influential theologians, like him or not.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183532#Comment_183532

Good for you Matt! Like I said before and so say I now again, I have no use for Barth and don't really care to criticize him. I'm the "more practical" type of preacher. I'd just rather read my Bible and criticize Jesus or Paul more accurately than read Barth's work and criticize him. To me Jesus and Paul are the best theologians out there compared to a mere human being like Barth, even if he's considered to be "last century's more influential theologian." Don't get me wrong, I got nothing against him, but I have better and more important things to focus on than Barth AND 700 bucks or 99 bucks to save that I could spend on other things...[;)] In the end, Barth is not a salvation issue...so it doesn't matter whether you know all about him or not...[:D]...but, but...if it's important to you, I respect that. I hope Logos can offer it cheap during the 12 Days of x-mas sale. [Y]

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183535#Comment_183535

The Lord blesses each one of us with the desire to fulfill our calling. Some are evangelist, teachers, preachers. Some have the desire to search out historical theology, some have the desire to just focus on the word. Both callings are needed in the Church. We need teachers to make timothy's we need evangelist to bring potential timothy's to the church. There a many callings the Lord uses each one of us. All glory to God and his individual work within each of us.

Some desire to read Augustine, Calvin, Barth along with Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter

Some desire to read only Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter.

Praise God that he worked through Calvin, and Barth and we can glean from them. We would have no Calvin without Paul.

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183541#Comment_183541

Well said.

Paul C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183541#Comment_183541

We would have no Calvin without Paul.

I don't think it's fair to blame Paul for Calvin's theology. [:P]

Brian Davidson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183513#Comment_183513

Todd Phillips answered the original post very well. How about we just let this thread die (i.e. enough already).

Chris Thompson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183546#Comment_183546

Todd Phillips answered the original post very well. How about we just let this thread die (i.e. enough already).

Are you an aspiring MVP? Is there something that violates the guidelines? ... Or do you just have a headache? [:D]

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183545#Comment_183545

We would have no Calvin without Paul.

I don't think it's fair to blame Paul for Calvin's theology.

I needed that laugh [:D] Maybe some of his writings [W]

Jonathan Burke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183548#Comment_183548

Abi, I think Brian's advice was sound; he doesn't need to be an MVP to speak good sense. However, I did enjoy the crack about Calvin. [:)]

Chris Thompson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183549#Comment_183549

I think Brian's advice was sound; he doesn't need to be an MVP to speak good sense.

[:)] Just because someone is not interested in the discussion, They don't have a right to try and shut it down. I see no violation of the prime objective. No one was shouting or preaching. There are other threads to read...other forums to visit, or ..if all else fails, there is a power switch on the computer. [:)]

Jonathan Burke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183555#Comment_183555

It's cool Abi, I didn't see anyone trying to shut down the discussion or censor anyone, and it's not because Brian isn't interested in the discusion (what are we discussing now anyway, since the original question has been answered?).

Someone made an embarrasing mistake which involved a rather unfortunate accusation against Logos which turned out to be untrue. I believe Brian is being very considerate to the two parties concerned, to suggest that we just let this thread drop.

Timothy Ha

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183477#Comment_183477

That price does seem kind of high. Can anyone who actually knows how Logos goes about pricing explain (even though I'm sure it has been discussed before) how Logos' prices are more expensive than regular books?

I also want to re-read the often quoted statement from Logos.

Producing tagged Logos e-books are, of course, much more expensive, but selling e-books cost less for the company. No warehouses, just web servers and bandwidth.

So I guess the high price for Barth's resource is due to the little number of possible buyers...

Timothy Ha

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183546#Comment_183546

Todd Phillips answered the original post very well. How about we just let this thread die (i.e. enough already).

Oops, I didn't follow the thread till this point. Sorry, for pushing it up.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183556#Comment_183556

Someone made an embarrasing mistake which involved a rather unfortunate accusation against Logos which turned out to be untrue. I believe Brian is being very considerate to the two parties concerned, to suggest that we just let this thread drop.

OK, MVP here, stepping into a role which is not part of the MVPs job description but we do sometimes try to protect Logos's reputation because we too are users who like Logos. (And yet we also voice our criticisms too, in positive, constructive ways.)

The reason I would like to see this thread dropped is every time someone posts on it again (which I realize I'm doing now) it pops back up again into the recent threads and affects newbies' opinions of Logos. Many people just open a thread and read the first post without reading the follow-up to discover why it was invalidated. And then they add their agreement at the bottom of the thread (as someone already has done), and the issue stays live.

I'm all for joking around about Calvin's theology being blamed (or not) on Paul. But let's do that on other threads that won't unfairly present Logos in a bad light. (And I'm not just trying to protect Logos at all costs or shut down negative discussion. I'm all for letting threads that have valid criticisms of Logos go on and on ad infinitum until they address the problem.)

Pat Flanakin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183564#Comment_183564

SLIPPERY SLOPE WARNING FOR THIS THREAD:

When you begin to question the profit margin of a business, you naturally solicit questions of how much is a Biblical profit margin correct? I mean, isn't the understanding of God's Word paramount here and in all circumstances?

I would suggest that this subject be dropped and leave the gleaning of the field, or not, to the management of Logos and its leadership and their relationship with the Lord.

I would argue that there is much more in the Word concerning our behavior vs. a business's since a business entity cannot be a Christian; therefore, those Christians in the organization are commanded to:

Eph. 6:5-7 (ESV):

5 Bondservants,
be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with
fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as
bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with
goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men,

I do not think we need to worry about whether Logos is being greedy...just do not buy what they are offering if you cannot afford it. Men for years in ministry did fine without Logos and they can do fine now.

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183479#Comment_183479

To Blair

CBD as a business offers as many as 5 Catalogs a month according to your classification (Preacher, Youth Minster, Homes Schooler, etc.,) In these catalogs they use the Sales approach to advertise. The SALE PRice in the Current Catalog dose list suggest retail just as LOGOS Does. The difference is that in the SALES
Catalog issued twice a year they will have products like this $99.set for $49.. You can, And I have done this, use a three onth old catalog and order with the SALE price. In actuallity, this is their price they sale sets for. I have NEVER seen any set list even within%75 of retail at CBD if it has been listed as a sale..... CBD really does sale these product year round at or near this price. In three months it may go up to $150 dollars, but I will personally tell you they will never go much more than $50 TO $75 Dollars over a Sale price and will drop a SALE price by half in their inventory reduction catalog.

CBD is a company, they are CHRISTAIN BASED. THEY MAKE A PROFIT and yes anytime anyone sells at DISCOUNT INTENTIONALLY to Christian who evalgalize, spread God's word, offer apologetics they are a MINISTRY. I Consider SCROLL Publishing as a ministry also along with a few other publishers, some of which sell at near cost.......................................................

Wilson Hines

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183684#Comment_183684

I have to chime in here because I am a capitalist pig. I am proud of Bob and the gang for making tons and tons of cash. I wish the Pritchett families could afford a house on each continent and all the amenities of being filthy stinking rich that providing such a valuable service and product as Logos can be afforded.

I get Logos and they get vacation homes and BMWs. That sounds fair to me.

Same thing with the owners of CBD. If it weren't for CBD I wouldn't have Robertson Nicol's "Expositor's Greek Testament" for the past 15 years and a slew of other fantastic books that are just about only available through them and them alone. May God richly bless them and make them filthy rich, if they're not filthy rich already.

May cooler heads prevail!

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183564#Comment_183564

I would like to see this thread dropped

[Y] +1

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183597#Comment_183597

To Pat

I somewhat agree, however read LOGOS history. They advertise themselves as a Christian company. I don't know where you shop for your Christian supplies. maybe you pay the $29.99 for a Christian DVD at the local Bible book store, I myself will purchase from a less expensive source. However, If I know of a Christian run bookstore, which I do, especially Mennonite, Charity and Believers bookstore, I usually see them making a profit without using the "Christian Logo" to rip people off which many mainline Christian stores do. I have spoken to many of the LOGOS team in the past. They seem to be good people. I am concerned at the prices that this may not be the case.

What you are saying seems to be turning your back due to your thoughts of the product, though I pray I am wrong.

If a Christian; Church, Person, Group or Company falls into sin, they sould be approached just as anyone in the shurch who sins whould be. Greed is a sin, it is a form of idolaty to the world.

15 "If your brother sins against you,^a go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. ¹⁶But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’^b¹⁷If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

ALSO Gal 6:1, 1Jn 5:16

Since you quoted here are mine:

2 Peter 2:2 And many will follow their debauched lifestyles.⁸ Because of these false teachers,⁹ the way of truth will be slandered.¹⁰^2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words.

Col 3:5 So put to death whatever in your nature belongs to the earth:² sexual immorality, impurity, shameful passion,³ evil desire, and greed which is idolatry.

Luke 12:36 he said to them, "Watch out and guard yourself from³⁷ all types of greed,³⁸ because one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

Mark 7:20 He said, "What comes out of a person defiles him. ^7:21 For from within, out of the human heart, come evil ideas, sexual immorality, theft, murder, ^7:22 adultery, greed, evil, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, pride, and folly. ^7:23 All these evils come from within and defile a person."

These are only some on GREED along and not on doing wrong to other.

Since I do like these guys and believe they are Christian, I must speak out reguardless if others feelings.. Some FEELING seem to be gentile but are not really what we are told to do.

In Love and Charity

Fred

==============================================================================================

To Christian who evalgalize, spread God's word, offer apologetics they are a MINISTRY. I Consider SCROLL Publishing as a ministry also along with a few other publishers, some of which sell at near cost.......................................................

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183492#Comment_183492

Dear Rosie,

I have read many of your post and enjoy them and know of your loyality to LOGOS. I to am Loyal to my favorite
Bible Program LOGOS 4. I have shopped at CBD for year and have anssered in another post how they practice. If I didn't make it clear pick up a
Harbor Freigh Catalog to get the idea in one catalog. You will find the same product with one of these catalogs listed with two to three time, one will have a price %90 below the other, thus making the product look great to buy. This too may be misleading and Greedy from this Christian company. Playing sales game is how they operate. The difference is CBD does this using different Catalogs and locations thus when you find the Cheap one you impulse buy.

YES.... I have wrote CBD as one Christian to another stating that this is sinful.

As for Fair priceing compared to Hardbound. It is not that hard to make E-Publications. Especially if you designed the format. THESE BOOKS are not in copywrite. If you search LOGOS you will find quite a few books in which they actually show you OLD Book. This is because these aer the Books which WERE OCRed to make the E-Book.

I am sorry if you disagree, but it does not cme anywhere near the cost of hardbound book publication. Not to mention Storage price, Distibution Prices and Advertising to a wide market. Logos has none of these problems. They have a captive audiance, so to speak. Don't let loyality make you an advocate of defending wrong against right.

Love in Christ, and continue to Blog - Love your post[:)]

Fred - v (Jeff) who is still waiting after ten years to an Anabaptist Library on Logos.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183704#Comment_183704

"If your brother sins against you,^a go and show him his fault, just between the two of you.

What you are doing does not appar to be that, Fred. If you'd first brought up the complaint to Logos and been rebuffed by them, then I could see bringing your issue before the larger forum for debate. As it is now, you've riled up a bunch of people with no warrant.

Did you see the explanation that the cheaper version CBD is selling is an outdated edition? They are charging $720 for the current edition, which is more than what Logos charges.

Hallelujah for stores that choose to sell their products at a deeper discount for those in ministry. But I don't believe Logos has ever stated that as part of their reason for existence. Logos is a company run by Christians, though they do not publicize that in their marketing materials or their website. However one would make the assumption they are Christians based on how they conduct themselves in responding to customer dissatisfaction, and their very interest in publishing the kinds of materials they do. (However there are other known companies which publish Christian books or even Bibles which are not run predominantly by Christians, or at least maybe they were when they were founded but aren't anymore.)

I suggest you take your issue with this particular resource directly to Logos and see if they don't satisfy you with a better price than what is advertised on the website. Expecting them to come down to $100 or $150 on it would probably be unreasonable, though, given the discussion above, which you apparently skipped over. They do not offer the forty-year old first edition in their catalogue. If they did, I'm sure you'd be able to get that for much less than the current revised edition.

For those who don't like capitalism, go use free Bible software with public domain resources. There's plenty of it around. This edition of Barth is not in the public domain, so you won't be able to get it. But at least you'll be happy knowing you're being ethical, and you won't have to imagine that you're funding the developers having nice cars or houses. (Many of the Logos employees ride bikes to work actually. They don't appear to be overly rich to me. I've been there to visit and know several of them in person.)

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183699#Comment_183699

I would like to see this thread dropped

+1

[Y] +1

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183709#Comment_183709

As for Fair priceing compared to Hardbound. It is not that hard to make E-Publications. Especially if you designed the format. THESE BOOKS are not in copywrite. If you search LOGOS you will find quite a few books in which they actually show you OLD Book. This is because these aer the Books which WERE OCRed to make the E-Book.

I look forward to trying out your products in a couple months at a greatly reduced price. Do you have a mailing list? [:D]

I believe you are being unfair to Logos here, and as a brother feel somewhat obligated to point it out. You are accusing Logos of selling a product at a much greater price than CBD is, which is just plain not true. CBD's price is $720. Logos sells it for $700. One could just as easily accuse you of having an insincere heart, trying to convict Logos to sell something at a price that gives you the financial advantage by using misleading information.

Logos is upfront that if you want their product you will need to pay $700. There is nothing underhanded about that. What would be underhanded is if they said you can have Karl Barth for $100 and once you bought it said "oh, and by the way, you'll need to spend $200 on our software to be able to read it."

If you don't want to pay $700 then don't buy the product, at least according to my belief your ministry can still succeed without his work and not owning his work will have no bearing on your salvation.

In my experience I have never been cheated by Logos. What they told me I would need to pay for a product I wanted is exactly what it cost me. That is what I call a fair business transaction. If I love doing business with Logos it is not because I have been duped into doing so but because they have always been fair and I find their product well worth the price.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183715#Comment_183715

for the visual ones:

here are two sets offered by Christianbook. The cheapest set is the oldest, one that Logos does not offer. Not only is the english translation 70ish years old, but you have to know Greek and Latin.

Here is the new translation, just recently published.

Notice the price on this same set in Logos (one with tagging, linking, and it fits in your backback, along with thousands of other books:

it is cheaper. And, at times, a personal contact with sales can even get you a better deal.

I love CBD, I really do. Before I went digital, i bought from them ALL the time. They are not always cheaper than Logos, and not cheaper the Amazon--although sometimes they are. They do what they have to do. So does Logos. But now we have a thread that says "SHAME on Logos", bringing disrepute to them over an factually inaccurate post.

How encouraging it might be to start another thread with the title "BRAVO Logos!"

EDIT: added content.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183723#Comment_183723

As for Fair priceing compared to Hardbound. It is not that hard to make E-Publications. Especially if you designed the format. THESE BOOKS are not in copywrite. If you search LOGOS you will find quite a few books in which they actually show you OLD Book. This is because these aer the Books which WERE OCRed to make the E-Book.

I am sorry if you disagree, but it does not cme anywhere near the cost of hardbound book publication. Not to mention Storage price, Distibution Prices and Advertising to a wide market. Logos has none of these problems. They have a captive audiance, so to speak.

It's not as easy as you think making E-Publications. Have you seen their feature article on what it takes to make one? It's pretty involved, especially for out-of-print works (for current in-print works, they can usually get the digital text files directly from the publisher which saves them a ton of work):

http://www.logos.com/features/prepub

Bob has explained elsewhere why the cost of E-Publications is comparable to the cost of printed books. First, the cost of continuous developing of the software to access the books has to be factored into it, since they charge only for the resources, not the engine. We get free upgrades of the software forever once we buy a Logos resource. There's nothing in the printed book world that can compare to that. Second, there is the cost of support. You buy a print-based book and you know how to use it right off the shelf. Unless you're this poor fellow. [:)] Not so with digital media. Logos provides free customer service and that is a major expense for them in running the business, so they have to charge enough for the resources to cover that.

I think it would be good for Logos to offer a virtual "field trip" to the digital book publishing division in the forum of a video showing us what all goes into making their electronic resources. It might help us all to understand why things are priced the way they are.

I really wish you'd chosen a different title for this thread as I hate seeing it keep popping up in the recent threads again, but I still felt I had to settle a misperception. Unfortunately it has been rehashed dozens of times before in these forums, and I'm sure this won't put the issue to rest forever.

Wilson Hines

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183731#Comment_183731

Why not ask a moderator to lock the thread, because after all, the question is settled very thoroughly.

Chris Ritter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183684#Comment_183684

anytime anyone sells at DISCOUNT INTENTIONALLY to Christian who evalgalize, spread God's word, offer apologetics they are a MINISTRY. I Consider SCROLL Publishing as a ministry also along with a few other publishers, some of which sell at near cost.......................................................

I don't chime in on the forums very often, but here goes. The argument could easily be made that all Christians are in "the ministry." Everything we do reflects what we believe about the God we serve and is evident to those around us. It doesn't matter if we sell books, become a doctor, work at a gas station, or pastor a church. In that sense, Logos is most definitely a ministry to both pastors and laymen. However, Logos is a business and has never hidden that. It is a business that needs to make a profit in order to sustain itself. The business is bigger than throwing out some eBooks at people and walking away. They continually make the software better, answer our phone calls, develop new products, provide these forums...

It seems as though the idea of making a profit is where you are struggling with this issue, but making a profit is not the same as being greedy. Logos has historically done an excellent job at reinvesting profit back into the business in order to grow and become even more beneficial to the users of the software. Reinvested profit is actually how we got to Logos 4 since they don't charge for the engine. I praise God that we have Christians in this business and that I am able to have a whole library in my pocket wherever I go.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/183709#Comment_183709

I'm sorry I don't have time for a longer reply, but just a quick note: public domain vs. copyright is the smallest part of the cost equation in preparing a book. The royalty to the author is generally much lower than the actual cost of preparing even an electronic edition. In fact, public domain books often cost MORE to make as e-books, because they have to by typed. Modern, copyrighted books are often available from the author or publisher in electronic format, and require only processing and tagging.

We rarely OCR; the OCR'ed books in Logos were generally done by third-parties, and you can tell because of the higher error rate. OCR is rarely better than 97% accurate, which leaves many errors per page. (Just count the characters on a page -- maybe 80 chars by 25+ lines = 2000 characters, 3% errors = 60 per page in raw processing.) We generally have things double-keyed, at 99.95% accuracy. (Triple-keying, for 99.995% for Bibles, which costs even more.)

We've had individual titles (multi-volume) with keyboarding costs in excess of $100,000.

-- Bob