Are Logos Public Domain Books free to Copy?

David Jonescue

David Jonescue

Hello. I am not really looking to get into a big discussion on peoples personal opinions of ethics, etc. I am just wanting to know, black and white, if at all possible, if Logos Public Domain works; that are verifiably in the Public Domain, are free to copy from without text limit or dispersion restrictions. If I am not mistaken, the US doesn't have "sweat of brow" clauses regarding Public Domain works; meaning, that converting something from one medium to another, or doing grammatical changes like updating spelling, formatting, or minor editing constitutes as a creative work. Nor has Logos sought to consider their Public Domain works that to my knowledge. I am not desiring to go on a copy and paste spree, that is not my intention. But Logos does have some Public Domain works that you cant get in print, and I would like to make a non-profit (meaning no royalties made) print book offering of them, if, PD books are free to copy from.

I see some places it looks like it is OK, like in the question regarding copying from Strong's that it "is perfectly fine because it is in the public domain." i.e.

Do I have permission to use Strong’s Numbers in my publication?

Yes, Strong’s is public domain and no permission is needed to use it. In the Logos software, the Strong’s data is in reverse interlinears, and when clicked on, the definition comes from “A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible”. If a user reveals the alignment in a Bible, they’ll see the Strong’s Numbers.

Others on this forum have said that Public Domain works are free to copy. Would just like a straight forward answer, because even though I think it is permissible, and so do various sources; I just want to make sure.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you all. GB.

MJ. Smith

Probably not as they have added proprietary tagging. In England, merely transcribing a public domain text is sufficient to create a copyright situation leading to discord in the West Gallery music community.

David Jonescue

I see what you are saying, but tagging isnt carried over with copy and paste I believe. That is basically an inner program function if I am not mistaken. This is why I am hoping someone from Logos may be able to give an official answer. I know US laws would apply as Faithlife is out of the US.

MJ. Smith

I answered assuming you meant copying the entire work … from the fuller post it appears you are talking about fair use.

David Jonescue

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1361603#Comment_1361603

This is the question I am getting at. If something is Public Domain in America it cannot be Copyrighted, to my knowledge, even if converted to different mediums, minor spelling updates, formatting, etc. Because none of this would constitute a enough substantial change to be considered a creative work. US Copyright Law does not have a "sweat of brow clause" as can be referenced by the Supreme Court "Feist Decision" i.e. Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service, 1991. The amount of text one copies doesn't matter in the case of Public Domain works, because Fair Use only applies to Copyrighted works. In the case of Logos' Public Domain works, they do not try to Copyright them, nor is their a Logos Copyright within the text. And they plainly display the date the work was published, as we all know everything published before, I think 1928, is Public Domain in the US, if that is the edition they used, or if the edition they used is based on a work from before that date.

This is why I am trying to avoid debates of peoples personal opinions of ethics, and would simply like a clear cut, black and white answer. Either Public Domain texts are free to use (as is the case with the above mentioned Strongs) or Logos feels they are not, which all I would ask for is a reason why it legally wouldn't be? To me, the amount of text of Public Domain works used is not the issue, if there is nothing Logos perceives as legally binding its users to refrain from doing so. Again, they have given credence to the opinion that there are no restrictions with the invitation to use such works as Strongs "at will," under the recognizing that it is in the Public Domain. But an official response from one of their reps would be nice to put the question to bed, and to see how they feel about it.

The main reason I dont email, is because the contacts seem to either go to sales, or customer service; and they may not be qualified to give an official position.

Jason Stone (Logos)

I have been meaning to get back to you via email — I'm glad that you asked here in the forums. I'll watch this open question and see if we can get you an answer.

Renold Burke

I need to know ASAP.

DMB

See

https://community.logos.com/discussion/247258/are-logos-public-domain-books-free-to-copy

Jeremy White

Keep in mind that copyright rules vary from country to country, especially as it relates to "fair use" and when something is considered in the public domain. Generally, speaking snippets of copyrighted content can be reproduced in a new work as long as it falls under the umbrella of fair use and that it is correctly attributed. However, academic and personal integrity should also compel us not to claim ideas or words written by someone else as our own, regardless of whether or not it is public domain or still under copyright protection.

In regards to public domain works, bear in mind that a new translation of an old work would have copyright protection. Also, any additional notes or commentary would also be protected. So it comes down to doing your due diligence for the specific work/s you are interested in and acting with integrity. Candidly, even if it is copyrighted material and what I want to do doesn't fall into the fair use category it has been my experience that approaching the copyright holder for permission often produces a favorable response. Sometimes it might be you are asked to pay some money, sometimes not.

Edit…

I got a little curious and did a quick stalk on you :) If you are the same David as what I found then for the works you have already published; the original text you've used (assuming it is not a new translation or abridgement) remains in the public domain but any new content you created to go with it would be considered under copyright protection.

Bernhard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1361616#Comment_1361616

It seems like you know the answer already. If Logos had a different opinion, it wouldn't matter. They cannot change the legal situation and they cannot protect anything in the Public Domain. Lots of people take Public Domain works and publish them on Kindle with added copyright notices. Those notices are rubbish and everyone would be free to copy those works (without, as you said, the parts that can be considered their own creative works. I assume, the tagging in Reverse Interlinears done by Logos would constitute their own creative work, even if it is connected to a Public Domain Bible. So, you have to keep those out of your exports. You also need to make sure, the book is not a newly revised version and you take out any illustrations, footnotes and any other parts they might still be protected. But it seems like you know all of that. Again, it doesn't matter what Logos says, Public Domain is and stays Public Domain.

David Jonescue

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1362396#Comment_1362396

Yes, a complete "modernization" of a public domain work would be considered a creative work, if it were completely reworded; but not if an old text with archaic spelling was just updated to replace the archaic spelling with contemporary spelling (for instance "shall wee go to the stoor" to "shall we go to the store".) In the US, when dealing with public domain works, there is also no "sweat of brow" laws that protect the labor when converting a public domain text from different mediums, i.e. facsimile to digital, digital to audio, audio to print, vice versa.

But that really isnt my question because I know that. My question is coming as a Christian, and not as someone who is trying to take advantage of Logos, because Logos is a company I am very fond of. BUT, if there position is public domain works can be freely copied from, as I had listed in the OP in their response to a request to use Strongs, then I have no need to fret from using them. This is why I am trying to kind of get a response from Faithlife.

I know if I just did it, Logos couldnt take me to court. But thats not the issue. If I do it, I want to know Logos doesnt mind.

Jeremy White

I think what you are trying to do is commendable. And also legal; as long as you've done your due diligence about the text.