Book of Revelation- Historic Premil
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Matthew C Jones said:
Jesus, name above all names Acts 4:12
What a wonderful detour you have invited us to take !
Can you now see that stepping off the reservation is not always a bad thing?
If it is a sincere discussion of God and His love, Nothing but good can come of it.
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Matthew C Jones said:K.J. said:
That which we call a Rose, By any other name, Would smell as Sweet.
The Bible is special. It is unique. No other book has any such credentials. No other book even comes close. “England has two books, the Bible and Shakespeare. England made Shakespeare, but the Bible made England” (Victor Hugo, cited by Mead, Encyclopedia of Religious Quotations, p. 49).
McDowell, J., & Stewart, D. D. (1993). Answers to tough questions. Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers.
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Many Christians are celebrating tomorrow not as Hallowed Eve, the day before All Saints Day,Abi Gail said:Matthew C Jones said:K.J. said:That which we call a Rose, By any other name, Would smell as Sweet.
The Bible is special. It is unique. No other book has any such credentials. No other book even comes close. “England has two books, the Bible and Shakespeare. England made Shakespeare, but the Bible made England” (Victor Hugo, cited by Mead, Encyclopedia of Religious Quotations, p. 49).
McDowell, J., & Stewart, D. D. (1993). Answers to tough questions. Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers.
but as Reformation Day .............. in our lives and in our churches we continue to practise the tenets of the Reformation ...
. If you continue in My Word, our Lord says .........
REFORMATION DAYJohn 8.31-36
So if the Son makes you free,you will be free indeed.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
REFORMATION DAY
Demoralized Leaders
October 30
October 31, 1517 is the best-known date in Protestant history—the day Martin Luther nailed his convictions to the Wittenberg door. But an incident that happened 16 years before helps us understand Luther’s boldness. Rodrigo Borgia was named a cardinal in 1456, and “no sooner had he donned his red hat than he removed it, together with the rest of his raiment, for a marathon romp with a succession of women whose identity is unknown to us and may well have been unknown to him.”
His immorality only increased when, in 1492, he became Pope Alexander VI.
On October 30, 1501 Pope Alexander presided over the infamous “Ballet of the Chestnuts.” Guests approaching the papal palace saw living statutes of naked, gilded young people in erotic poses. Inside, after the dishes were cleared from the banquet hall, the city’s most beautiful prostitutes danced with the guests, shedding their clothes a bit at a time. Eventually the pope and his sons became judges of a contest in which guests stripped and performed with one another. Alexander awarded prizes to the men.
The corruption of the papacy continued under Alexander’s successor, Julius II, and when Luther visited Rome in 1510, he was shocked to find the papal court served by “twelve naked girls.” Down to his old age, Luther remembered seeing and hearing of sexual abominations taking place in the name of Christ by those who were thought to be spiritual leaders. He later wrote, “I would not have missed seeing Rome for a hundred thousand florins. If I did I should ever had been uneasy lest I might have done injustice to the pope.”
It was the demoralized nature of the papacy as much as its doctrinal failure that convinced Luther to risk prosecution and excommunication with fortitude. Holy living—personal purity—Luther knew, is married to pure doctrine, and the union is inseparable … for “the just shall live by faith.”
You are God’s people, so don’t let it be said that any of you are immoral or indecent or greedy. Don’t use dirty or foolish or filthy words. Instead, say how thankful you are. Being greedy, indecent, or immoral is just another way of worshiping idols. Ephesians 5:3-5a
Morgan, R. J. (2000). On this day : 265 amazing and inspiring stories about saints, martyrs & heroes (electronic ed.). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
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Abi Gail said:Matthew C Jones said:K.J. said:
That which we call a Rose, By any other name, Would smell as Sweet.
The Bible is special. It is unique. No other book has any such credentials. No other book even comes close. “England has two books, the Bible and Shakespeare. England made Shakespeare, but the Bible made England” (Victor Hugo, cited by Mead, Encyclopedia of Religious Quotations, p. 49).
McDowell, J., & Stewart, D. D. (1993). Answers to tough questions. Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers.
Yep.
But KJ was quoting Shakespeare.
And You and Hugo and Mead and McDowell will be hard pressed to find that quote in any Bible, regardless of which cannon you choose.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
And You and Hugo and Mead and McDowell will be hard pressed to find that quote in any Bible, regardless of which cannon you choose.
Point taken, However, I did find some pretty mushy poetry.[:D]
Song 2:1-2
"I am the rose of Sharon, [W]
The lily of the valleys."
2 "Like a lily among the thorns, [W]
So is my darling among the maidens."
NASU
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Abi Gail said:
Demoralized Leaders
Maybe "Im-moralized" would be better fit.
Would that all protestants were as dedicated to holiness. In my life I have seen immorality wearing every type of cleric's garb; be it Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh........... (fill in your own favorites, they've all fallen short.)
It is not the outer garments that make a man. We must all be clothed in the righteousness of Christ. My "goods works" (filthy rags that they are) will not be adequate to attend the marriage supper of the Lamb. Isaiah 64:6Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Dear Brother Jones:
I do not disagree with anything you say. We are polishing different facets of the same precious stone. I did not set out to bash Catholics. Mel mentioned Reformation Day. I posted a daily reading (devotional if you will) that expanded on that fact. I do not presume to state that any denomination is purer than another. Far from it. It is my belief that every protestant denomination finds one issue to protest, and one pet truth that they believe sets them apart from all other denominations. They can then steal sheep from other flocks by convincing them that their truth is better than the other truths.
Bottom line...Christ's TRUE Church doesn't have stained glass windows, or Dogma, or Politics.
Gal 1:8-9
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
NASU
God bless you in your studies.[:)]~
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Abi Gail said:
We are polishing different facets of the same precious stone. I did not set out to bash Catholics. Mel mentioned Reformation Day. I posted a daily reading
I understand and agree with you. I was not reprimanding you. (Sorry if it sounded so.) I was only expanding the original devotional's statement to include all of sinful man, whatever trappings he decorates his outward body with. I receive a few daily email devotionals that mentioned Reformation Day this week. I celebrate lots of days as holy days. But the holiness I need to compare to is that of my holy God and not the miserable failures of mere humans. I can usually find a human I judge as dirtier than myself. I can not compare myself to my Lord without humbly acknowledging my own inadequacies.
Abi Gail said:Bottom line...Christ's TRUE Church doesn't have stained glass windows, or Dogma, or Politics.
Again, I agree. I first comprehended this while reading Chuck Colson's book "The Body"
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I first comprehended this while reading Chuck Colson's book "The Body"
I will add it to my list....But OHHHHHH the list is so long.
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Abi Gail said:
It was the demoralized nature of the papacy
I think you misspoke. Don't you mean "the demoralized nature of Rodrigo Borgia a.k.a. Pope Alexander VI"?[:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Abi Gail said:
Mel mentioned Reformation Day. I posted a daily reading (devotional if you will) that expanded on that fact.
Reformation day is a significant day in liturgical calendars and is clearly relevant to Logos. I have trouble, however, thinking that those who celebrate Reformation day are not focused on the Reformation and it's leaders ... it would be a waste of their time and energy to celebrate the Borgias ... In fact, I have trouble believing anyone would celebrate them. So your "devotional" fits how?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Abi Gail said:
It was the demoralized nature of the papacy
I think you misspoke. Don't you mean "the demoralized nature of Rodrigo Borgia a.k.a. Pope Alexander VI"?
No, I didn't misspeak. "Demoralized Leaders" was the title the writers gave the article.The allusion to the Demoralized Nature of the Papacy was their choice of words... not mine. I added Nothing. (Thank you Logos, for Copy and Paste.) You can accuse them of misspeaking, if you like.[:)]
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MJ. Smith said:Abi Gail said:
Mel mentioned Reformation Day. I posted a daily reading (devotional if you will) that expanded on that fact.
Reformation day is a significant day in liturgical calendars and is clearly relevant to Logos. I have trouble, however, thinking that those who celebrate Reformation day are not focused on the Reformation and it's leaders ... it would be a waste of their time and energy to celebrate the Borgias ... In fact, I have trouble believing anyone would celebrate them. So your "devotional" fits how?
I understood it to be celebrating Martin Luther. " October 31, 1517 is the best-known date in Protestant history—the day Martin Luther nailed his convictions to the Wittenberg door." Some regard Luther as the father of the Reformation. No One can deny that he was instrumental in it's onset. How do you speak of the Reformation, and not mention Martin Luther? The Book made a valid point (in my mind) That it was the Papal corruption that gave Luther the conviction to make a stand.[:)]
I will paste today's entry, for comparison, and possible clarification:
" High Noon
October 31
In 1517 Pope Leo X, empty-pocketed and needing funds to rebuild St. Peter’s basilica, issued a special “sale” of indulgences. The very word “indulgence” tends to convey dubious moral connotations, but these indulgences were particularly questionable. What was an “indulgence”? It was a special sort of forgiveness for sins issued by the pope in consideration of various acts of merit, in this case donations to Leo’s treasury. Indulgences could even be “purchased” on behalf of loved ones in purgatory.
Dominican friar Johann Tetzel became the pontiff’s peddler, a P. T. Barnum traveling around with a brass-bound chest, a bag of printed receipts, and an enormous cross draped with a papal banner. Whenever Tetzel came to a town, church bells peeled, crowds gathered, and street performers kicked up their heels. Tetzel would set up shop in the nave of the local church, open his bags, and shout, “I have here the passports to lead the human soul to the celestial joys of Paradise. As soon as the coin rings in the bowl, the soul for whom it is paid will fly from purgatory and straight to heaven.”
He usually exceeded his quota.
But many were troubled, and when the hard eyes of Martin Luther fell on the indulgences purchased by fellow villagers in Wittenberg, he studied them carefully and pronounced them frauds. At high noon on October 31, 1517, Luther, a 33-year-old university professor, walked to the door of Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, and tacked to it a document. The door served as the town bulletin board, and Martin Luther had an announcement to post. He called for a “disputation on the power and efficacy of indulgences.”
A few curious passersby drew near and scanned the words: “Out of love for the faith and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed at Wittenberg under the chairmanship of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and Sacred Theology. … ” There followed a list of 95 items.
Luther did not yet know what mighty blows he had struck."
Morgan, R. J. (2000). On this day : 265 amazing and inspiring stories about saints, martyrs & heroes (electronic ed.). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
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lol, is it just me, or is this a teeny bit off-topic? (jk!. . . it is OT, but those things don't bother me at all, the wannabe king of Off Topic posts . . . )
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Going to a thread that is off topic is like going to a leafy fig tree with no figs.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Jerry M said:
Going to a thread that is off topic is like going to a leafy fig tree with no figs.
Good Humour, Jerry! *smile*
Peace to you! And to all!
If anyone wants to go to the source, Logos has The 95 Theses el cheapo!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Good Morning Mel;
Did you find time to re-visit Luther's "Preface to Romans"...as you had hoped?[:)]
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Good Morning, Abi, and Peace to you this Lord's Day!
...........and Great Joy in the Lord! *smile*
I did indeed pursue Luther's Galatians Preface. In fact I had it open in a floating window for a number of days until I could "read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest" the gist of it once again. Was grateful to be reminded of this work!
Blessings
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Our original conversation was about the Preface to Romans...Not Galatians. He did write one for Galatians. (as well as James,Jude, and Revelation)...all pale in comparison to his Romans Preface. I can just imagine that he was at that "First Love" state while studying Romans. It is My understanding that It was his study of Romans that prompted him to see all of Scripture in a new light.
God Bless
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ooppss! You are right of course! *smile* Must be a bit wooley-headed this morning. Had a few things to do before Worship today - am leaving now! - and for some reason I was also thinking about Luther's Commentary on Galatians .........
.......... it was, though, the Romans preface that I pondered after your post .......
thanks for the correction ............ maybe I'll open it again on this Reformation Day ......
hoping our Pastor (love him!) and the hymns .......specially chosen, I'm sure ........ and the Red Paraments for this morning's Liturgical Service ........... are inspiring ...... but above all ........
help me focus again on the Grace of God through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!
Peace to you!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Matthew C Jones said:
A Complete Guide to Understanding the Dispensationalism Controversy
Here is a book that comes from a dispensational perspective and yet is post tribulational, an interesting mix. The Church and the Tribulation A Biblical Examination of Posttribulationism by Robert H. Gundry
A here is a popular video going around. It's on topic, (but unrelated to L4.) (Hey, everybody else is violating. why not me
GodTube - Today's Christian Videos - After Great Tribulation
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Abi Gail said:MJ. Smith said:Abi Gail said:
It was the demoralized nature of the papacy
I think you misspoke. Don't you mean "the demoralized nature of Rodrigo Borgia a.k.a. Pope Alexander VI"?
No, I didn't misspeak. "Demoralized Leaders" was the title the writers gave the article.The allusion to the Demoralized Nature of the Papacy was their choice of words... not mine. I added Nothing. (Thank you Logos, for Copy and Paste.) You can accuse them of misspeaking, if you like.
[^o)]HHHMMMmmm~~~[^o)]
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[Y]
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Welcome,Seymore. Feel free to join the discussion.[:)]
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Matthew C Jones said:
Would that all protestants were as dedicated to holiness. In my life I have seen immorality wearing every type of cleric's garb; be it Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh........... (fill in your own favorites, they've all fallen short.)
Yes, you are right Matthew, but still there is a great difference in what was going on in those days and today. The leadership of the named denominations (I am not speaking about the non-Christian religions you named) is seeing it as a problem and dealing more or less with the immorality when it occurs. In the time leading to the Reformation the top leadership was a problem. And it was connected to the doctrinal issues IMHO (as somebody noticed already).
I am glad we live in a different days, however not being without our own challenges and problems.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
Yes, you are right Matthew, but still there is a great difference in what was going on in those days and today
Bohuslav Wojnar said:seeing it as a problem and dealing more or less with the immorality when it occurs.
Thank you for having the courage to swim upstream and identify the problem.
Bohuslav Wojnar said:I am glad we live in a different days
I'm not sure that the victims of the current version of immorality would agree. I am related to 2 men in their 50's who were savagely scarred by the pedophilia of the priesthood. They have joined the thousands who have testified about the Cover-Up of the crimes inflicted on children... and after 40 years of carrying that baggage, are seeking counseling to finally deal with the crimes inflicted upon them.
Different days? ...Dealing more or less with the immorality when it occurs?
I'm just not so sure.[:(]
Matt 18:5-6
"And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
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I sure didn't know all that. I'm gonna enjoy this site.
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Abi Gail said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
I am glad we live in a different days
I'm not sure that the victims of the current version of immorality would agree. I am related to 2 men in their 50's who were savagely scarred by the pedophilia of the priesthood. They have joined the thousands who have testified about the Cover-Up of the crimes inflicted on children... and after 40 years of carrying that baggage, are seeking counseling to finally deal with the crimes inflicted upon them.
Different days? ...Dealing more or less with the immorality when it occurs?
I'm just not so sure.
I'm sad to agree. The days are still too similar.
This problem is not isolated to the "other guys" but purveys throughout every denomination. I venture a guess that each of your own churches carry some type of "sexual misconduct" liability insurance. And a g00gle search will show there is good reason to. But insurance, cover-ups and the denominational designations do not help the victim
I am not sure how any of this relates to Revelation & historical premillennialism, yet. [H]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I am not sure how any of this relates to Revelation & historical premillennialism, yet.
2 Thess 2:3-5
For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
ESV
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