how can I find all the lemmas of a word in one book?

I am looking for all the words translated as "fish" in the book of John. In Accordance I can set the range and type "fish" and the analysis shows me there are three different words translated as "fish" in 9 verses.

In Logos, by contrast, if I type "fish" I can't figure out how to see the forms. I understand I can do a Bible Word Study, but if I try it from the Greek in Jn 6:9, it just looks for ὀψάρια. Likewise, if I do a Bible Word Study of "fish" it will show me all the forms of fish in both the Greek and Hebrew, when I am trying to isolate just Jn.

Any clarity how to do this would be appreciated.

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Graham Criddle

Try running a Bible Search - not an Inline Search in your Bible - and use the Analysis view. You can play around with groupings to get a range of results - including the one you are looking for

Kristin

Hi @Graham Criddle, ya, that helps a lot. Thank you. I am wondering though, is there a way to make it cleaner?

My primary concern is that G3588 is being recorded as a hit, which is just not true. In both of those verses the word "fish" is being translated by G2486, artificially suggesting that two different words are being used to translate "fish" in those verses. Likewise, it is also inconsistent since while τῶν is counted as "fish" in Jn 21:6, it is not in Jn 6:11, even though τῶν is present there also.

Additionally, is there a way to get this cleaner as far as how many unique words there are? In my Accordance screenshot there are clearly 3, while in Logos it is listed as if there are 9 unique counts. In this specific instance it is not a huge deal as I can manually count it, but if there was a word with 50 unique words and Logos listed them like this, it would be an issue.

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Graham Criddle

My primary concern is that G3588 is being recorded as a hit, which is just not true. In both of those verses the word "fish" is being translated by G2486, artificially suggesting that two different words are being used to translate "fish" in those verses. Likewise, it is also inconsistent since while τῶν is counted as "fish" in Jn 21:6, it is not in Jn 6:11, even though τῶν is present there also.

This is due to tagging (see right of screenshot below) which shows that in Jn 6:11, the τῶν is not included in the tagged translation for fish whereas it is in Jn 21:6. Someone from Logos would need to comment on that.

Additionally, is there a way to get this cleaner as far as how many unique words there are? In my Accordance screenshot there are clearly 3, while in Logos it is listed as if there are 9 unique counts.

Try right-clicking on one of the small arrows next to the search results and selecting the Summary view. Does that give you what you are looking for? If not, I'm afraid I am not understanding your question properly.

Kristin

Hi @Graham Criddle, I am probably missing something obvious, but I can't find the arrows. I see it in your screenshot, but I don't see arrows on the left in my screenshot. The only arrows I can find are up at the top which just sort the list.

MJ. Smith

Just an FYI -I prefer to start with the more visual source:

Kristin

Hi @MJ. Smith, thanks for the screenshot, and that is helpful to know that way as well. However, I am actually more interested in the view @Graham Criddle listed above since it breaks down the Greek better. I can't find the carrots on the left that he mentioned though. Do you see it in my screenshot?

Graham Criddle

I am probably missing something obvious, but I can't find the arrows. I see it in your screenshot, but I don't see arrows on the left in my screenshot.

Apologies - you need to do some grouping first.

Try pressing the Option key on your keyboard and then - while still pressing it - dragging the header of the Lemma (Greek) column to the row between the search views (the one that shows Analysis)

That should give you the right-click options.

Kristin

Hi @Graham Criddle, oh, I see. Thank you for clarifying that. :) I finally found the carrots. That helps a lot.

I think I should report Jn 21:6 and Jn 21:8 as an error or bug, as in both verses "fish" is translated with ἰχθύς, not τῶν as the chart claims. Is there a way to do that? It especially seems like a bug since the verses are listed twice, giving the impression that the English word "fish" occurs twice in those verses.

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Graham Criddle

It especially seems like a bug since the verses are listed twice, giving the impression that the English word "fish" occurs twice in those verses.

It's correctly reporting the tagging - in showing that the tagged translated word is deemed as being drawn from the two Greek words.

I think I should report Jn 21:6 and Jn 21:8 as an error or bug, as in both verses "fish" is translated with ἰχθύς, not τῶν as the chart claims. Is there a way to do that?

As per the helpfile, I suggest emailing data@logos.com and explaining your concerns

Kristin

Hi @Graham Criddle, thank you for the email, and I will go ahead and email them. My primary issue is a lack of consistency, since Jn 6:11, Jn 21:10, and Jn 21:13 all have the article without it tagged, while it is randomly tagged in Jn 21:6 and Jn 21:8, but more importantly, the article is factually not translated as "fish" in those verses.

Anyway, thank you again for your help and for the email.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1378546#Comment_1378546

It's not "randomly tagged"; it's an alignment to an English translation.

John 6:9, 21:10, and 21:13 all contain the words "the fish" in the ESV translation, so aligning ὁ is trivial.

John 21:6 and 21:8 have "τῶν ἰχθύων" (genitive case) in Greek and "of fish" in English. The ESV translators didn't use "of the fish" (presumably for English stylistic reasons) so we have to decide how to align two Greek words to the two English words we have.

One option would be aligning "τῶν" to "of", which seems wrong. So we could align "τῶν" to an ellipsis (meaning not translated) or align the semantic unit "τῶν ἰχθύων" to "fish", with "of" as an auxiliary helper word given a secondary alignment.

It appears that the reverse interlinear team did the latter; I don't immediately see it as a bug or an incorrect alignment (given the goals and constraints of reverse interlinear alignment between different languages).

Kristin

Hi @Bradley Grainger (Logos), thank you very much for the explanation, and that makes sense. I would personally go with option two, the ellipsis, but I agree that option three is a valid translational method for reverse interlinears.

Just to make sure I understand correctly, the fundamental point is that if I see an article listed in the Bible Search (I think that is what it is called), then it means that the article was not translated such as in Jn 21:6. So regardless if it is nom, gen, dat, or acc, if it is untranslated it will be included in the search of the word it addresses. By contrast, in Jn 21:10 the article is translated as its own word, so it is not on the Bible Search box of "fish."

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

If you search an English translation for Greek (or Hebrew) words, then the Analysis view will show you the details of the reverse interlinear alignment between your search term and the English translation. (I don't think you can infer a blanket rule about "translated" or "not translated", particularly when some alignments involve idioms.)

Kristin

Hi @Bradley Grainger (Logos), thank you for clarifying this. If I am understanding correctly, if I do the Bible Search again with an English word (like fish above) instances of ὁ in the search need to be reviewed separately, as sometimes they are there since they are included with the actual word since they are not translated (such as Jn 21:6), and sometimes it is there since it really is the word used. For example, in Mk 5:18 Logos records ὁ as the translation of "man" as well as "the", and in that case that is in fact what happened. So sometimes ὁ is the translation, such as in Mk 5:18, and sometimes it is not, such as in Jn 21:6, so instances of "the" in the English Bible Search needs to be reviewed one by one.

Hopefully I understand it correctly.