Hell - A Church for real people?

Milkman · October 2010

A very good friend who I run with is the pastor of a church which is essentially "A Church for REAL people." While talking with him on the golf course he shared with me how there are so many people who PLAY church. You know. Those who talk the, 'praise the Lord', 'Lord bless you,' life is great with God kinda thing. His biggest concern, as he was talking with me was, people really don't get it. Life is not all that great. Sure the Lord loves us, but there are those who are going through hell, hurt and hungry for more of Christ that are really wanting a 'touch' from the Lord. His biggest problem is this. With all the 'stuff' going on in our lives, how does he minister to those who have been church born, church bred and churched until they die kind of people who have heard all the Sunday School answers but that some how doesn't seem to cut it.

He loves his people deeply, and I mean deeply, but he's torn "between two worlds" (JS). He's the kind of guy who, like myself doesn't mind having a beer or two (or 3) while smacking the ball around or having a cigar while doing a BBQ for his good friends and their wives. To him this is simply doing life and for most of those who worship with him Sunday mornings all is good. I've seen him witnessing to some guys on the course, buying THEM a beer and them saying, 'if being a Christian is like you guys, having fun, letting loose and having a beer then count me in.' However, there are those in his congregation (about 600 ppl) who say; 'he shouldn't do that sort of thing and should remember to live above reproach and if push comes to shove, then the board may have to make a decision regarding his future".

I guess what I'd say to those who really don't get it is "take a hike." There are soo many ppl who really do play the game but don't get it. The praise the Lord brother, God is good all the time. . . etc. So my biggest concern is how do I help him to keep his lust for life his people his family and his friends without losing his passion for life while leading a church of mixed feelings?

Are there books in L4 that could help him? Sure, but I just need more than books to come along side a brother and to 'stake' him up/hold him up in this time.

Not really sure if this is the proper forum to do this, but I know that some of you guys feel the same way and I wouldn't mind a word or two about this.

Thanks for reading this and any advice on anything I wrote would be great.

MM.

Allen Browne · October 2010

This post probably is mostly outside the guidelines, even though you asked for some resources. It raises important non-Logos issues about how we care for each other, and about how to do life together in a way that is authentic (open transparency and love, including the unpleasant aspects of life and the values where some can be judgmental.

I'm sure you can search for yourself to locate resources dealing with how the church needs to interact with the world (mission), how to be the church (community), and the values (ethics) that express that community. The way Jesus got himself into trouble for partying with the wrong people (Lk 15:2 etc) and the stories he told by way of explanation (whole of Lk 15) could be informative. One of the interesting perspectives on Ephesians etc is that Paul views the church as being true humanity (more than Jew/Gentile, one in Christ, humans in the process of being restored to God's big, original creation vision.)

But, in the end, it sounds like you and your friend need exactly the kind of openness you share on the golf course: being real with each other and with God, and wrestling with how to genuinely do and be what Father has called us to do and be, even when that conflicts with what people expect. Every Christian leader faces that conflict.

Whatever you do, don't get disheartened (Mt 11:6.) It's worth pushing on with the tough questions, and trusting that God can and will put the capstone in place despite our present struggle. In fact, the struggle may be exactly what we need to face and express in the Spirit (Rom 8:18-27.) [Tom Wright has some good stuff on that. Others may point you to specific resources]

George Somsel · October 2010

Milkman said:

He loves his people deeply, and I mean deeply, but he's torn "between two worlds" (JS). He's the kind of guy who, like myself doesn't mind having a beer or two (or 3) while smacking the ball around or having a cigar while doing a BBQ for his good friends and their wives. To him this is simply doing life and for most of those who worship with him Sunday mornings all is good. I've seen him witnessing to some guys on the course, buying THEM a beer and them saying, 'if being a Christian is like you guys, having fun, letting loose and having a beer then count me in.' However, there are those in his congregation (about 600 ppl) who say; 'he shouldn't do that sort of thing and should remember to live above reproach and if push comes to shove, then the board may have to make a decision regarding his future".

There was a guy many years ago who was criticised in a similar fashion to your pastor. It seems to be the fashion in certain groups. They think that life is one smile after another (except that they wouldn't be caught actually having a good time). It was written concerning him,

"33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon’; ³⁴the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners'"

Lk 7.33-34

It seems they have forgotten (or deliberately overlooked) the Psalmist's comment,

Friedrich · October 2010

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187876#Comment_187876

To keep within the guidelines (I say this for others, to rest their consciences, not for you, MM):

1. He needs to be strong in the Lord, and as Logos can be helpful to him for that, great! (resources, tools, etc). The temptation is to react and get defeated, or to accentuate the "bad" behavior and gradually changing your reason for doing it (God, enjoying life out of faith) to one less noble. I enjoy tools that help remind me of the bigger picture, which challenge me to pursue and love God, that lift my imagination. Robert Webber is one author. His book "the Divine Embrace" (not in Logos yet) was the first of his I read, helping me connect with the idea of God's bigger story, and learning to communicate that to others.

2. Sounds like some resources that are not in Logos, (but have been suggested) might be helpful in general for the church "The Peacemaker" by Ken Sande (and all the related works and small group study material) and "the Emotionally Healthy Church" by Scazzarro.

3. On his own he might like a resource that keeps him focused on God like "The Handbook to Prayer" (daily prayers) and the one on Renewal by Boa.

It's a tough issue to deal with beyond what this forum is made for.

Ron Corbett · November 2010

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187880#Comment_187880

The Logos Apologetics page would be a great place to start. I would direct him to look there. "Real" is a subjective term but putting that aside, people may be afraid to be 'real' because they lack real answers. Geisler and others have done some great work for us. Being 'real' requires a real strong anchor. Thank God we have One who is Mighty to save and well able to keep us safe as the storms of life may come. Devotional materials (which have already been suggested) are an important too.

Being 'real' can lead to unhappy places - as Solomon discovered - Eccl 1:12-14 (and one must guard against bitterness) but in the end ... the WORD renews, strengthens and keeps us :

Eccl 12:9ff. Fear God and Keep His Commandments

9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. ¹⁰The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.

^{11
¹²Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. ¹³ Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. ¹⁴ For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. (NIV)}The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd.

Hell - A Church for real people?

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