Concerning Maps
To start with, I just want to say that I love the new maps that are being added.
That being said, there is one feature that I wish we had and that is the ability to overlay maps. Not sure if this phrase communicates what I want, so let me explain.
When I first started studying Isaiah, I wondered what part of the Middle East was included in other empires. In other words, were there certain areas that were in the Assyrian Empire, but also later in the Babylonian Empire, as well as the Greek Empire, and also the Roman Empire? It would be great if we could overlap the boundaries of these different empires to see if there were any overlaps.
When I mentioned something like this in the newsgroup, someone (I'm sorry that I forgot who!) sent me a map where he had done (was it in the Accordance program?) exactly what I wanted to see. It was great! Can this be a feature that we could have also in L4?
Charlene
Charlene
Comments
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Charlene,
I'm so horrible at history and geography that this would be a valuable thing for me!
Edited to add:
How about one huge map that you can "toggle" different things on and off and they overlay and appear and disappear so you can see the "big picture" and not have to "get your bearings" for every different map? Like acetate map overlays on an easel.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Yes, that will be great, may be Logos could use the "Visual filters or Lens" mechanism to implement such:
- Turn on / off "Empires" as what Charlene suggested
- Turn on / off "Details / Overview" such as Provinces / Cities / Mountains / Seas / etc
- Turn on / off "User defined details" etc.
JK
MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1
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What a cool thought Charlene...
Although I really like geography reading a reference in the scriptures can easily get muddied so doing an overlay map would be really helpful when going through specific passages. Especially with L4 having the ability to float a window. I always pickup maps that have overlays - never bought one - but it would be great to have in Logos. Especially since, I use Logos as an integral part of my study and setup for messages.
I'd even be willing to buy it as a resource if it had the functionality to pick up geographical locations based on scripture passages where appropriate.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Robert Pavich said:
How about one huge map that you can "toggle" different things on and off and they overlay and appear and disappear so you can see the "big picture" and not have to "get your bearings" for every different map? Like acetate map overlays on an easel.
That is an excellent idea.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Charlene said:
To start with, I just want to say that I love the new maps that are being added.
That being said, there is one feature that I wish we had and that is the ability to overlay maps. Not sure if this phrase communicates what I want, so let me explain.
When I first started studying Isaiah, I wondered what part of the Middle East was included in other empires. In other words, were there certain areas that were in the Assyrian Empire, but also later in the Babylonian Empire, as well as the Greek Empire, and also the Roman Empire? It would be great if we could overlap the boundaries of these different empires to see if there were any overlaps.
When I mentioned something like this in the newsgroup, someone (I'm sorry that I forgot who!) sent me a map where he had done (was it in the Accordance program?) exactly what I wanted to see. It was great! Can this be a feature that we could have also in L4?
Charlene
This was possible with the old Logos and Parson's Bible Atlas programs... if they could do it with 16 bit software surely we can get this with today's technology. A much needed feature indeed.
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Robert Pavich said:
How about one huge map that you can "toggle" different things on and off and they overlay and appear and disappear so you can see the "big picture" and not have to "get your bearings" for every different map? Like acetate map overlays on an easel.
That was really the idea that I was thinking about...it would be the same sized map, but you could add or layer different things on it, such as empire borders. (thus you could do more than one item at a time)...therefore when you finish you have a map with all the borders (Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman) on one map...or perhaps other things as well...this was just the need of the moment (to see the similar borders), as I study Isaiah.
Charlene
Charlene
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A map overlay feature is being considered for a future release. ~ Thanks, Melissa
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Charlene said:
To start with, I just want to say that I love the new maps that are being added.
That being said, there is one feature that I wish we had and that is the ability to overlay maps. Not sure if this phrase communicates what I want, so let me explain.
When I first started studying Isaiah, I wondered what part of the Middle East was included in other empires. In other words, were there certain areas that were in the Assyrian Empire, but also later in the Babylonian Empire, as well as the Greek Empire, and also the Roman Empire? It would be great if we could overlap the boundaries of these different empires to see if there were any overlaps.
When I mentioned something like this in the newsgroup, someone (I'm sorry that I forgot who!) sent me a map where he had done (was it in the Accordance program?) exactly what I wanted to see. It was great! Can this be a feature that we could have also in L4?
Charlene
Ummm, at the risk of appearing "out of the loop" (and since I apparently am), what maps?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Ummm, at the risk of appearing "out of the loop" (and since I apparently am), what maps?
I believe we are talking about biblical places..but someone check me if I've got that wrong....
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George Somsel said:
Ummm, at the risk of appearing "out of the loop" (and since I apparently am), what maps?
Hey George, welcome back! Hopefully this means your eye surgery was successful?
As Andrew said "I believe we are talking about biblical places..but someone check me if I've got that wrong...."
Basically you can open this tool up and then type in the place you are interested. It then gives you many possible maps or pictures of that place. It's great!
Charlene
Charlene
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Melissa Snyder said:
A map overlay feature is being considered for a future release. ~ Thanks, Melissa
Yahoo!!!! Thanks, Melissa, for letting us know!
Please, please, pretty please, Bob! Make it come true! [:D]
Charlene
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Melissa Snyder said:
A map overlay feature is being considered for a future release. ~ Thanks, Melissa
Woo hoo!! (doing the Snoopy happy dance)
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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That Robert, it is an image that will stay in my mind all day. [:)]Robert Pavich said:Woo hoo!! (doing the Snoopy happy dance)
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Charlene, while we don't currently offer the overlay feature you're wishing for, you can see something of this content on the map entitled "Empires with Both Ancient and Modern State Boundaries" (it's the second map you get with the command "Open Biblical Places to Rome"). It's fairly busy, but it shows the boundaries of the various empires on a large-scale map.
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Sean Boisen said:
Charlene, while we don't currently offer the overlay feature you're wishing for, you can see something of this content on the map entitled "Empires with Both Ancient and Modern State Boundaries" (it's the second map you get with the command "Open Biblical Places to Rome"). It's fairly busy, but it shows the boundaries of the various empires on a large-scale map.
Thanks, Sean, for pointing this out. I had not seen this yet! Pretty good! (Of course, I still am wishing for the overlay feature! [:)])
Charlene
Charlene
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Sean Boisen said:
Charlene, while we don't currently offer the overlay feature you're wishing for, you can see something of this content on the map entitled "Empires with Both Ancient and Modern State Boundaries" (it's the second map you get with the command "Open Biblical Places to Rome"). It's fairly busy, but it shows the boundaries of the various empires on a large-scale map.
Thanks, Sean! Peace and Joy to you!
Very good! Quite fascinating! And it's very earlyi in Logos 4 ... Really appreciate the link to Google Maps.
... Mel
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Sean Boisen said:
Charlene, while we don't currently offer the overlay feature you're wishing for, you can see something of this content on the map entitled "Empires with Both Ancient and Modern State Boundaries" (it's the second map you get with the command "Open Biblical Places to Rome"). It's fairly busy, but it shows the boundaries of the various empires on a large-scale map.
Sean, while we may sometimes seem like Egyption taskmasters we do appreciate the efforts being put in behind the scenes...but would really love to see that overlay feature there someday.
Your suggestion leads me to a question of how we can browse the available maps, I thinking an index or listing of some sort and also what about searching them ? Can this be done in some way ?
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AndrewMckenzie said:Sean Boisen said:
Charlene, while we don't currently offer the overlay feature you're wishing for, you can see something of this content on the map entitled "Empires with Both Ancient and Modern State Boundaries" (it's the second map you get with the command "Open Biblical Places to Rome"). It's fairly busy, but it shows the boundaries of the various empires on a large-scale map.
Sean, while we may sometimes seem like Egyption taskmasters we do appreciate the efforts being put in behind the scenes...but would really love to see that overlay feature there someday.
Your suggestion leads me to a question of how we can browse the available maps, I thinking an index or listing of some sort and also what about searching them ? Can this be done in some way ?
One more question. Is there a way to measure distance between to places on a map ?
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AndrewMckenzie said:
[One more question. Is there a way to measure distance between to places on a map ?
Andrew ~ If you hold the Ctrl key down as you click and drag cursor from one place to another, the distance will be displayed. ~ Melissa
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Thanks Melissa, that is good to know.
Hopefully some of these subtler commands to do things like this will be documented so on launch users will not be groping around like blind men and women. Remember, Jesus came to heal these afflictions and the Word is an eye opener everyday.
Thanks again for ALL of your efforts.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Melissa Snyder said:
Andrew ~ If you hold the Ctrl key down as you click and drag cursor from one place to another, the distance will be displayed. ~ Melissa
Killer...thanks melissa!
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Melissa Snyder said:AndrewMckenzie said:
[One more question. Is there a way to measure distance between to places on a map ?
Andrew ~ If you hold the Ctrl key down as you click and drag cursor from one place to another, the distance will be displayed. ~ Melissa
Thanks I thought it could be done.
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Melissa Snyder said:
If you hold the Ctrl key down as you click and drag cursor from one place to another, the distance will be displayed.
This is great! Thanks for the info, Melissa! Any other hints you want to give us concerning maps?[:D]
Charlene
Charlene
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Andrew: we don't currently provide a way to search for maps by title. Our (ambitious) design goal is to make them appear in the right context at the right time. The best way to accomplish that is usually to search for a place of interest, and then review the list of maps at the bottom.
Charlene: i'm still finding clever features myself, but here are two neat ones you may not know about.
- As of beta 7, you can search for labels on maps with Ctrl-F. That helps when you have a map but you don't really know where the place is on it: it will "fly" you in for a close-up
- If you have the Biblical Places report open, you can type a passage in the search box, and it will show you a list of the places mentioned in that passage (sort of like the Bible Explorer, but just for Places). Here's an example, entering "Acts 13" in the search box.
Note this same trick works with both Biblical People and Biblical Things as well.
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Sean Boisen said:
Note this same trick works with both Biblical People and Biblical Things as well.
Thank you Sean. I like it. There are so many new tricks. I want to know all of them. Have a great day.
Bohuslav
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Sean Boisen said:
Andrew: we don't currently provide a way to search for maps by title. Our (ambitious) design goal is to make them appear in the right context at the right time. The best way to accomplish that is usually to search for a place of interest, and then review the list of maps at the bottom.
Top marks for the goal Sean, keep purising that but don't allow such goals to determine that things like my request are not necessary. Sometimes I use like to pick up a resource and look at its table of contents without having a specific place of interest. By what you are saying Logos is determining on my behalf, without my consent, that such a practice is not relevant, that I should need to simply browse an atlas. I have a little bit of trouble with that determination by Logos. Please reconsider and give us the ability to browse the 'table of contents'.
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Andrew: I agree with you that having a maps resource that could be searched by title would be valuable. Perhaps the wording of my response sounded like that i don't value that kind of usage, but i do. I was simply trying to communicate how to find a map in the application as it stands now.
Thanks for your response.
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Sean Boisen said:
Andrew: I agree with you that having a maps resource that could be searched by title would be valuable. Perhaps the wording of my response sounded like that i don't value that kind of usage, but i do. I was simply trying to communicate how to find a map in the application as it stands now.
Thanks for your response.
At the moment I am a little troubled by some things that have been lurking beneath the surface and are starting to come through with this application in terms of a big brother approach, both in underlying philosophy of its development and in terms of actual software behavior. I appreciate you are just the messenger so sorry if I shot you in the foot Sean.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
At the moment I am a little troubled by some things that have been lurking beneath the surface and are starting to come through with this application in terms of a big brother approach, both in underlying philosophy of its development and in terms of actual software behavior.
Just drink the Kool aid....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Being serious,
What you call "big brother" I call automated...trying to do the best thing for the user with as little fuss as possible.
I agree that their are things that I'd like to see mad emore flexible, but the reality is that all of the software that I use have some parts "adaptable" and some not....that's just the way it is...
It's not big brother trying to keep us down...it's business decisions trying to keep cost down and stay in business...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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AndrewMckenzie said:
At the moment I am a little troubled by ... a big brother approach
Can I politely suggest another way of thinking about things? I agree -- we are taking a big brother approach. But if instead of the "big brother" of 1984, you think of an actual "big brother", who watches your house while you're out of town and helps you build the deck behind your house, he's not so bad, right? Even if he does organize your messy tool bench without asking. :-)
I generally stay in hotels where all they do is make the bed and swap the towels. At a business conference once I stayed in an incredibly service oriented hotel where the maid rearranged all my toiletries on a cloth, put slippers by the bed, turned down the sheets, put chocolate on the pillow, and even folded the clothes I'd draped over a chair. My first reaction was annoyance; why are they touching my clothes, I don't wear slippers and they are in the way, etc. etc.
But after a couple days, it felt kind of nice. :-)
Logos 4 tries to be helpful, and sometimes it gets in the way when you know exactly what you want to do. But I believe it is more helpful to the majority, and that it guesses well. And as we move forward we'll try to listen to feedback (yours included), make changes, and even adapt to your preferences. (If the slippers get kicked away every day, the maid should realize that and stop putting them out.)
As a tiny example, if you use the command bar, type an abbreviation, and then select the SECOND item in the list, the command bar will remember. Next time you type the exact same thing, it will default to the SECOND item, not the first one. It remembers. I hope to get more of this logic into the system -- we'll open your reading plan with a Passage Guide, Bible Explorer and Information Window, but if you immediately close them, we'll try to remember that and not open them next time. And hopefully we'll find ways to be useful without becoming too annoying.
(I'm reminded of the transition from the LLS to the Libronix DLS in 2001. One of the primary complaints of existing users was that we opened something by default -- our home pages -- instead of opening to the blank screen and library control that we'd defaulted to with the LLS. "How can you assume you know what I want first?" We can't. We just assumed that "nothing" was less likely right than "something", which turned out to be true for most users. But not all. A small percentage set LDLS 3.x to open to an screen empty still.)
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Bob,
Lot's of good points...thanks for weighing in...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Bob Pritchett said:
(I'm reminded of the transition from the LLS to the Libronix DLS in 2001. One of the primary complaints of existing users was that we opened something by default -- our home pages -- instead of opening to the blank screen and library control that we'd defaulted to with the LLS. "How can you assume you know what I want first?" We can't. We just assumed that "nothing" was less likely right than "something", which turned out to be true for most users. But not all. A small percentage set LDLS 3.x to open to an screen empty still.)
You mean, like me. The "home page" in 3.0 is definitely out, and the last opened may not be what I want. I have all of my standard configurations saved as workspaces and can open they quite easily. I am pleased to see that in 4.0 you can type in all or part of the workspace (ahem, "layout") and bring it up even easier since scrolling through a long list was a bit tedious. I must say that the new home page is an improvement in giving useful information though it gets a bit tedious over time since much of it doesn't change that frequently.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Melissa Snyder said:
Andrew ~ If you hold the Ctrl key down as you click and drag cursor from one place to another, the distance will be displayed. ~ Melissa
For the benefit of other Fusion VMware user on Mac, you need to to hold Ctrl+Alt Key down as you click and drag as Melissa taught us.
PS: It took me 2 days to figure that out [:$]
JK
MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1
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Sean Boisen said:
search for maps
Sorry if this has been said before. But the icons across the bottom of many tools are frustrating
<rant on>
Typing Jerusalem in the reference box brings up a map with Jerusalem in it. So far so good.
Across the bottom of my monitor are 40 faded icons which all look nearly the same. There are arrows that allow me to scroll which show another 40+ faded icons which all look the same. Actually there are a bunch of icons which are clearly pictures, but they too all look alike. None of these icons provide any information other than it is another map or picture of some sort. So I have 80+ things to search through, one of which may be what I am looking for.
If I hover over one of these icons, after a few seconds a title will appear with a larger image (but for some reason it will disappear after a few seconds). Great! I know what one of the 80+ icons is, and if none of the other icons have information that is closer than this one, I can come back to it. That is if I can remember where it was when I finish searching the list (which will take 2-3 minutes minimum).
How am I supposed to find what I am looking for with this user interface? To me it is a completely frustrating experience. There appears to be no order to the icons and even if there was, in most cases there is no visual clue what any given icon is a map of (beyond something to do with Israel) and nothing to distinquish any given icon from its neighbors.
I cannot understand how this is supposed to be useful. If I am missing something, please let me know.
If I am not missing something, please add a text list of the maps/places instead of the useless list of icons. Alternatively provide a window with the larger maps which appear when you hover are all tiled on a page/series of pages.
Note that making them darker will not help as they are too small to provide information.
Finally, I find it odd that you have pages which look like the icons across the bottom of this page (as well as on other tools such as biblical people)
and the "Select Prefered Bible" on the home page is brighter than a Las Vegas neon sign even after you set your preferred bible.
However, there is no mistaking or guessing what this item is and what it does. I would rather have 80+ item ribbon of an interface like the "choose prefered, over what is currently on biblical places/people tools.
</rant on>
Thanks for listening,
Clinton
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Clinton Thomas said:
the "Select Prefered Bible" on the home page is brighter than a Las Vegas neon sign even after you set your preferred bible.
Be thankful for small mercies. Apparently Bob's first design (and one on which he was adamant) was this:
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Sean Boisen said:
Charlene: i'm still finding clever features myself, but here are two neat ones you may not know about.
- As of beta 7, you can search for labels on maps with Ctrl-F. That helps when you have a map but you don't really know where the place is on it: it will "fly" you in for a close-up
- If you have the Biblical Places report open, you can type a passage in the search box, and it will show you a list of the places mentioned in that passage (sort of like the Bible Explorer, but just for Places). Here's an example, entering "Acts 13" in the search box.
Thanks, Sean! I did not know these 2 tricks...these were great!...keep them coming![:)]
Charlene
Charlene
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Damian McGrath said:
Be thankful for small mercies. Apparently Bob's first design (and one on which he was adament) was this:
Beautiful
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Bob Pritchett said:AndrewMckenzie said:
At the moment I am a little troubled by ... a big brother approach
I agree -- we are taking a big brother approach.
And it is because of this approach you are loosing me...you have put on way too many training wheels without user consent (ie they can not turn them off when they don't find them useful) ... and I don't find them helpful and sometimes they are down right annoying. I really wish I could say something else Bob, but I can't if I am going to be honest about my thoughts on these things.
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As I read through the posts concerning maps, there seems to be quite a few requests for a table of contents for all the maps. I am not quite sure how this will work, but then again, my concept of "Biblical Places" might be incorrect.
As far as "Biblical Places" are concerned, presently there are the new Logos maps that are being developed now (which I am assuming replaces the Basic and Deluxe Map sets?). But also, is not a feature of "Biblical Places" to scan all of our resources and pull in the maps drawn there? Up to this point, I am seeing maps being picked up from the new Logos maps, Images of the Holy Land, 1000 Bible Images, Stereoscopic Images of the Middle East, Tyndale Bible Dictionary, and Logos new Infographics. When I think of all the maps that are presently in my other books, but am unable to "pull them up" when I need them, it is massive. To think that "Biblical Places" will do that is so awesome!
So, I am not quite sure how it would be possible to have a "Table of Contents" for all the maps that are placed in the ribbon below. I like that they are all there and I can just roll my mouse over each one to see if that is one that I might possibly be interested in.
However, having said that, I am assuming that there will be a "Table of Contents" for the new maps that Logos is in the process of developing, just as there are for the Basic and Advanced Map sets now?
Thanks for all the hard work. I appreciate it.
Charlene
Charlene
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The Logos Maps are one of a small set of resources we've specifically created or commissioned, and for which we've put in extra effort to tie them together with the rest of the library. The Logos Infographics (which does have its own resources with a table of contents) and Biblical People diagrams are similar.
In addition to these, we're going back through all our resources and tagging images (maps, charts, photos, etc.) in ways that allow the Biblical People/Places/Things pages to "collect" them together and show thumbnails at the bottom that you can browse. But it's not really feasible to make a table of contents for all of those: there are too many, and they're an open-ended collection.
The strip of thumbnails images at the bottom of the People/Places/Things pages work pretty well in my opinion for a small number of images ("Open Biblical Things to sandal" shows a pretty good example), but not as well for very popular things like Jerusalem or Jesus. Making thousands of images available and searchable is a challenging
problem, and i think we still have a ways to go (but we're trying!).0 -
Damian McGrath said:
Be thankful for small mercies. Apparently Bob's first design (and one on which he was adamant) was this:
That's funny.
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Hi Sean,
Sean Boisen said:...But it's not really feasible to make a table of contents for all of those: there are too many, and they're an open-ended collection.
The strip of thumbnails images at the bottom of the People/Places/Things pages work pretty well in my opinion for a small number of images ("Open Biblical Things to sandal" shows a pretty good example), but not as well for very popular things like Jerusalem or Jesus....
The table of contents doesn't need to be static for the whole map set, but like the strip of icons, it can be dynamic based on the search results. You are already getting the information for the icon strip, it data just needs to be presented in a more usable manner.
Looking at the results for sandal, I don't agree that it works well. It is still just a bunch, albeit a small bunch, of place holders. It's only usable because there are so few results and when you scroll over the set, the 6 results stay in your short term memory so you can make a decision. If those 6 results had their previews all on a single tile page it would be so much better. The strip of icons at the bottom could be replaced with a single icon which was a link back to your dynamic set of results.
Sean Boisen said:i think we still have a ways to go (but we're trying!).
We appreciate it.
Thanks for listening and your feedback.
Regards,
Clinton
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AndrewMckenzie said:Bob Pritchett said:AndrewMckenzie said:
At the moment I am a little troubled by ... a big brother approach
I agree -- we are taking a big brother approach.
And it is because of this approach you are loosing me...you have put on way too many training wheels without user consent (ie they can not turn them off when they don't find them useful) ... and I don't find them helpful and sometimes they are down right annoying. I really wish I could say something else Bob, but I can't if I am going to be honest about my thoughts on these things.
To put in another way Bob, the user should be in charge of the software ratther than the software in charge of the user...
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Sean Boisen said:
The Logos Maps are one of a small set of resources we've specifically created or commissioned, and for which we've put in extra effort to tie them together with the rest of the library. The Logos Infographics (which does have its own resources with a table of contents) and Biblical People diagrams are similar.
In addition to these, we're going back through all our resources and tagging images (maps, charts, photos, etc.) in ways that allow the Biblical People/Places/Things pages to "collect" them together and show thumbnails at the bottom that you can browse. But it's not really feasible to make a table of contents for all of those: there are too many, and they're an open-ended collection.
The strip of thumbnails images at the bottom of the People/Places/Things pages work pretty well in my opinion for a small number of images ("Open Biblical Things to sandal" shows a pretty good example), but not as well for very popular things like Jerusalem or Jesus. Making thousands of images available and searchable is a challenging problem, and i think we still have a ways to go (but we're trying!).
Sean if a table of contents for every individual map is not practical if you want to include in the discussion maps that are included in specific resources, we still need someway to be able to work through this data in a non specific way, to browse it, maybe it means an approach to tagging so the maps can be browsed more along the lines the old style yahoo type internet directory... ( I still find this much more useful than the google appoach when I just want to browse) where we can work from the top down...
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