Why is Amplified Bible missing from base packages?
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Robert Pavich said:
I'll try and be as clear as i can..
I WASN'T COMPLAINING...I WAS MERELY EXPLAINING WHAT SOMEONE ELSE SAID.....
Right you are. I'm not on anybody's case for them not liking the same resources as myself. I just don't want to encourage wholesale dismissal of resources just because we find their publication of suspect scholarship, or worse, "dangerous."
If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, let's vanquish the "little" adjective and eliminate the danger with a "lot" of knowledge! Hosea 4:6
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Matthew C Jones said:
I am willing to entertaing divergent views so that I may have mine published too. The scholarly works you value probably could not get published in Logos without other works subsidizing scanners, coders and keyers.
This is not about entertaining divergent views. The Amplified Bible is not a book on theology.
Matthew C Jones said:Many Logos users complain frequently in the forums about resources they deem unfaithful to their understanding of the Bible.
I'mnot one of them.
Matthew C Jones said:I am sure you and Robert don't agree with every resource Logos publishes. (How could you?) Why start with The Amplified Bible?
Because:
* It's not a translation which is sufficiently faithful to the Word to be more useful or even as useful as the majority of standard modern translations, including the paraphrases
* It's based on out of date textual criticism
* The way it is presented leads people to false conclusions about Scripture, and more importantly false conclusions about their ability to translate Scripture, which they fondly believe is more accurate than the ability of professional translators
Matthew C Jones said:Others actually like The Message and I should not impede their access to it, no matter how much I want to protect them from it!
)Leaving the Message out of all Logos collections would not make it inaccessible to people. It's actually sold in bookstores. You can buy a copy just about anywhere. It's also available in a range of electronic formats. We should not confuse the choice not to provide a particular service or product, with censorship of that service or product. These are two completely separate issues. Similarly, when you come into my house and I expect you to mind your language, I am not in any way impeding your free speech; you're perfectly at liberty to walk out of my house and say what you like.
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There have beeen several comments to the effect that the Amplified Bible is not a translation, I am not sure I agree with that statement. I would point you to the Lockman site for information on this http://www.lockman.org/amplified/
I would also like to state that some translators consider a paraphrase from one language to another language to be a translation on the opposite end of the translation scale as a literal word for word translation. I find it interesting that the Lockman foundation has two bibles at such extreme distances from each other on the translation scale.
In either case it is important to read the preface in both bibles in order to understand how it is to be used. I find that most believers fail to do this before reading their bible, which often leads to misunderstandings.
I would also like to point out this is true no matter if I like the translation or dislike it, I need to understand what the purpose of the translation was.
And with all translations of the bible nothing beats the knowing the language it was translated from!
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
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Graham Owen said:
Whilst the Amplified Bible may enable a certain type of abuse I think it is wrong to associate this with any form of intent to encourage abuse. There are a whole range of Bibles, Language Tools, Commentaries, Theologies, etc. that can be used to abuse God's word.
I don't think there was any intent to encourage abuse, it's just the result of the way the tool was put together.
Graham Owen said:The problem is not the tool but the way we train people to use the tool and also the way we keep people away from tools that could damage them. I know many well educated so called "lay" people who use the Amplified Version, knowing its limitations, to help them get a deeper insight into God's Word.
If there wasn't any problem with the tool, we wouldn't have to train people to use it properly and we wouldn't have to keep people away from tools that could damage them. If people are getting a deeper insight into God's word with the Amplified Bible, I have to wonder how they know that's what they're getting, and I can't help thinking there are more efficient ways of doing it. I can get a good picture of myself by squinting into a dirty and broken mirror and moving around so I can see small parts of my face revealed imperfectly in those parts of the mirror which are sufficiently clear to see with, or I can just use a clean and unbroken mirror.
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Wow! I wasn't expecting this kind of debate about the Amplified Bible. I just wanted to know why it was left out of the base packages. I feel this has been answered (sort of), it was due to the publishers being difficult - what's new!
As for the current conversation, the Amp's introduction is blatantly clear about it's intentions, how it was constructed, and what the brackets mean.
Personally I don't use the Amplified Bible as a main reader. I like to use it as one of my comparison text next to my main text.
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Jim VanSchoonhoven said:
There have beeen several comments to the effect that the Amplified Bible is not a translation, I am not sure I agree with that statement. I would point you to the Lockman site for information on this http://www.lockman.org/amplified/
It's clearly a translation; it's in English.
Jim VanSchoonhoven said:In either case it is important to read the preface in both bibles in order to understand how it is to be used. I find that most believers fail to do this before reading their bible, which often leads to misunderstandings.
I would also like to point out this is true no matter if I like the translation or dislike it, I need to understand what the purpose of the translation was.
These points are well made.
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Sam West said:
Jonathan I am interested in what you are saying here and I mean this from a learning standpoint. I am a layman without any knowledge of the original language what so ever have nothing more than a 12th grade education. But I truly like to study Gods Word and have for many years ‘and understand how important it is to use the right word in the context you are studying and my idea of this is to use the BDAG and the Louw-nida to help me chose the right word. Is this in the ball park of what you are talking about? If you don’t mind explain to me in layman’s terms what I need to do to get the most out of the many hours I dedicate to studying Gods Word. I have L4 platinum library
Sam, if you're able to read the Greek in BDAG and Louw/Nida that's a very useful skill. I have a large range of Greek and Hebrew lexicons, and in my personal Bible study I typically do not use them to determine word meanings. I only use them for word meanings on uncommon occasions. Why? Because I usually read a translation which I can trust to provide the accurate meaning in context 90% of the time. If I have to keep running to a lexicon to check if the translation I'm reading is accurate or not, then I'm reading the wrong translation; I should read a better one.
I hasten to emphasize that I am a layman like yourself. I never went to seminary, and the two years of Greek and year and a half of Latin I studied have suffered badly from lack of use in the last fifteen years. They're sufficient to help me get around a lexicon or find my way through an original language text, but not sufficient hat I can rely on my language skill to supplement what I find in a modern translation.
My personal approach, in this order, is this:
1. Read the New English Translation: it has a massive number of footnotes which provide so much text critical and lexical information (including quotations from lexicons such as BDAG), that there's rarely a need for me to consult a lexicon, and I'm
2. Read standard scholarly commentaries: this is where I typically find much more useful information on the text, and especially the words in the text, than I could get from my own personal reading of the text in English or the original language
3. Do a word search to see where else a particular word is used in the Scriptures: this helps me see which other passages may be related to the one I'm reading, and how the word is used in a range of contexts; however, it doesn't provide me with an authoritative range of meaning for the word
4. Look up the word in a lexicon: this is where I typically find any information I may not have found up to this point
I would say that 80% of the time I don't need to go further than step one, and 90% of the time I don't need to go further than step two. Step three is typically for the sake of interest, and to detect uses of the word which may not be detectable in an English translation (this helps prevent me committing the exegetical error of 'exegeting the English' in other texts). I may or may not skip step three, but 95% of the time I don't even get to step four. I hope this helps.
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Jonathan, Are 747 jumbo jets a bad tool? Do we have to train pilots how to fly them? Do we owe it to the 350 passengers on board to keep you out of the cockpit? Paul would not have warned Timothy to rightly divide the word unless it is possible to wrongly divide it. 2 Timothy 2:15 .Training is a good thing.Jonathan Burke said:If there wasn't any problem with the tool, we wouldn't have to train people to use it properly and we wouldn't have to keep people away from tools that could damage them.
Just because it is in English does not mean it originated in another language. (A certain Book of Mormon is in English but lacks original manuscripts.) We have had a similar discussion before regarding The Message (a paraphrase.) The Amplified Bible is a verbose expansion of the original. It contains an inflated translation.Jonathan Burke said:It's clearly a translation; it's in English.
Like Jonathan said, your points are well stated Jim.Jim VanSchoonhoven said:I would also like to point out this is true no matter if I like the translation or dislike it, I need to understand what the purpose of the translation was.
So the final responsibility for our own study rests on our own shoulders. All the more reason to double-check the scholars who have gone before us. Paul admonished Timothy to study, not do rote memorization of doctrinal dogma. If I have to account for my own study efforts, I want to be able to choose my tools.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Jonathan, Are 747 jumbo jets a bad tool? Do we have to train pilots how to fly them? Do we owe it to the 350 passengers on board to keep you out of the cockpit?
Jumbo jets are made as well as they possibly can be for the purpose, following the highest standards of the industry, and pilots are trained accordingly. Those are the same principles followed by standard modern Bible translations. Those are not the principles on which the Amplified Bible was written. Yes we do owe it to the 350 passengers on board to keep me out of the cockpit, because I am completely incapable of piloting an aircraft. To put me in the seat telling the passengers, 'Just try it, we didn't want to censor him, and you can decide for yourselves if he enhances your flying experience' would certainly be grossly irresponsible.
Matthew C Jones said:Paul would not have warned Timothy to rightly divide the word unless it is possible to wrongly divide it. 2 Timothy 2:15 .Training is a good thing.
I certainly agree. Training includes advising people which sources to stay away from, just like Paul advised Timothy to stay away from Jewish fables and old wive's tales.
Matthew C Jones said:
Just because it is in English does not mean it originated in another language.I agree, but we're talking about the Bible here, which did originate in languages other than English. [:)]
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Back to the question that was asked, I seriously doubt the Amplified bible is not in any of the base prices because it is a resource that is easy to abuse, it is most likely due to some publishing deal, but only Logos can tell us for sure.
To be honest with everyone I have abused every language tool that I own at some period of my life including the Amplified bible, Strongs, BDAG, and anything else I can think of, and yes, I have studied Greek and I find out almost every year how I have abused another tool! I am currently working on a DTH degree and I am still finding out new ways that I abuse language tools, education helps but so does an attitude of constantly learning and a willingness to look at our own mistakes.
One quick question, the fellowship I belong to does not have a distinction between layman and clergy, where do we get the idea of layman being different from the clergy???
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
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Jim VanSchoonhoven said:
where do we get the idea of layman being different from the clergy???
I suppose you would want to do a basic search in Logos and then narrow down the resources from your library you want to search.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Jonathan Burke said:
My personal approach, in this order, is this:
1. Read the New English Translation: it has a massive number of footnotes which provide so much text critical and lexical information (including quotations from lexicons such as BDAG), that there's rarely a need for me to consult a lexicon, and I'm
2. Read standard scholarly commentaries: this is where I typically find much more useful information on the text, and especially the words in the text, than I could get from my own personal reading of the text in English or the original language
3. Do a word search to see where else a particular word is used in the Scriptures: this helps me see which other passages may be related to the one I'm reading, and how the word is used in a range of contexts; however, it doesn't provide me with an authoritative range of meaning for the word
4. Look up the word in a lexicon: this is where I typically find any information I may not have found up to this point
I would say that 80% of the time I don't need to go further than step one, and 90% of the time I don't need to go further than step two. Step three is typically for the sake of interest, and to detect uses of the word which may not be detectable in an English translation (this helps prevent me committing the exegetical error of 'exegeting the English' in other texts). I may or may not skip step three, but 95% of the time I don't even get to step four. I hope this helps.
Thanks Jonathan for the help. i also use the ESV and the notes that go with it. If you don't mind would you explain to me what a Standard scholarly commentary is and maybe suggest some of the commentaries that are scholarly in my platinum library.
Again Thanks for the help
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Graham Owen said:
Personally I also feel that the use of the term "lay person" is itself an abuse of others it is certainly one that I avoid because it is divisive and is actually poorly defined. I'm guessing that in the context of this thread "lay person" is synonymous with a person who does not posses the appropriate education in the original languages to determine the true meaning of the original text but another definition could be those who have not been ordained as "priests" within their denomination.
Graham, thanks for making this comment. The term in this context simply differentiates professionals from non-professionals, which is the common use of the term. I included myself in this category, and certainly had no intention of being derogatory. Nor was it in any way a reference to priests and laity.
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Sam West said:
Thanks Jonathan for the help. i also use the ESV and the notes that go with it. If you don't mind would you explain to me what a Standard scholarly commentary is and maybe suggest some of the commentaries that are scholarly in my platinum library.
Again Thanks for the help
You're welcome Sam. As for your question on commentaries, I can hardly do better than recommend this article on the Logos site. Another very useful article is the Logos guide to multi-volume commentaries, which can be found here. As another resource, this scholarly site reviews commentaries and recommends which commentaries are best for which kind of uses.
In Platinum, I would recommend:
* Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (8 vols.)
* Baker New Testament Commentary (12 vols.)
* The New International Greek Testament Commentary (13 vols.); an excellent scholarly commentary
* The United Bible Societies’ New Testament Handbook Series (20 vols.); a scholarly commentary intended to help professional Bible translators
* The United Bible Societies’ Old Testament Handbook Series (21 vols.); a scholarly commentary intended to help professional Bible translators
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Jonathan Burke said:
If there wasn't any problem with the tool, we wouldn't have to train people to use it properly and we wouldn't have to keep people away from tools that could damage them
But then we would have to "dumb down" every tool so that it can be used by anybody and that is unrealistic and restrictive.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Graham Owen said:
But then we would have to "dumb down" every tool so that it can be used by anybody and that is unrealistic and restrictive.
I'm not suggesting dumbing down good tools to prevent people misusing them. I'm suggesting:
* Guiding them away from bad tools* Helping them understand how to use good tools well
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Jonathan Burke said:
1. Read the New English Translation: it has a massive number of footnotes which provide so much text critical and lexical information (including quotations from lexicons such as BDAG), that there's rarely a need for me to consult a lexicon, and I'm
Hey Jonathan, what translation is this you are referencing? I have tried an Amazon and Logos search for the 'New English Translation' but no joy. Could you please point me to this translation? Blessings.
Ted
Edit
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Ted Hans said:
Hey Jonathan, what translation is this your are referencing? I have tried an Amazon and Logos search for the 'New English Translation' but no joy. Could you please point me to this translation? Blessings.
http://net.bible.org (AKA NET Bible)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Ted Hans said:
Hey Jonathan, what translation is this your are referencing? I have tried an Amazon and Logos search for the 'New English Translation' but no joy. Could you please point me to this translation? Blessings.
http://net.bible.org (AKA NET Bible)
How embarrassing, it just did not compute! My memory seems to be letting me down. Thanks Mark, I should have guessed it was the NET Bible. Much appreciated.
Ted
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Jonathan Burke said:
Graham, thanks for making this comment. The term in this context simply differentiates professionals from non-professionals, which is the common use of the term. I included myself in this category, and certainly had no intention of being derogatory. Nor was it in any way a reference to priests and laity.
I did understand your use of the "lay person" in context and personally feel that it is one of those "loaded" phrases that we need to be careful about using a lot like "fundamentalist" and "liberal". I genuinely appreciate that you were not trying to be derogatory in using that phrase but it is so open ended in its meaning that it can cause unnecesary conflict. Sorry if I cam across a bit harsh in my earlier comment on this.
For me this thread is important because it is opening up issues that need to be discussed and that more Christians need to be aware of. The denomination that I belong to proudly says that "we believe In the verbal inspiration of the Bible" yet many of our ministers and members have never taken the time to think about the implications of this. The very way that this is worded to me implies that we affirm the inspiration of the original manuscripts and therefore should have an interest in Textual Criticism, know which text we prefer and why. We still have a lot of people who remain loyal to the KJV, and I understand why, but most of them do not then understand that this makes an implicit statement about the preferred text being Textus Receptus!
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Thanks Graham, those are very useful comments. Ted, sorry to have been obscure. I usually say 'NET', except where I think someone might not be familiar with the abbreviation. In this case it seems to have backfired!
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I does seem odd that if you type new english translation into your library the Net Bible is about sixth in rank and is lost in a long list of other resources.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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*smile*
In my library, NET Noteless was # 35
New Living Translation was #1
Peace to you!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Graham Owen said:
I did understand your use of the "lay person" in context and personally feel that it is one of those "loaded" phrases that we need to be careful about
I understood Jonathan's use of the word also. And I don't believe he meant anything derogatory by using it. The point raised is a valid concern; students of the Bible need to know how to properly use the study tools available. But I would hope their pastor, family and trusted friends would be the ones they look to when they go weeding out the "dangerous" stumbling blocks. Logos provides a wide array of study tools. A student cannot reconcile all viewpoints included within the Logos program resources. God has provided for our instruction in things doctrinal. It is our own responsibility to study and recognize correct doctrine.
My father, brother, son, and soon-to-be son-in-law are all clergy. They are trained for full-time, paid ministry and missionary work. I have many friends who have the specialized training but minister without compensation and feed their families working as a "lay" persons. I also know many who never had the chance for formal training yet they work tirelessly serving in their local congregations. Logos is not an absolute requirement for successful ministry for any of these individuals any more than a college degree is. But we probably are in agreement, formal education is helpful to ministry. I would extend that argument to say Logos is helpful to ministry. Even with the lesser helpful resources included.
"Laity" & "Clergy" can mean so many different things in different circles. Usually the distinction lies only in the fact of whether or not the people a pastor serves recognize it and reward accordingly. If a flock doesn't recognize, appreciate or reward a pastor it does not lessen the value of the ministry performed. The world has millions of uncompensated and under-compensated clergy. It is a sad distinction created by men that has barred many willing from serving God and excused many selfish from the same. Of all the Apostles, Paul is apparently the only one with formal religious training. The rest were all "lay" men equipped with nothing more than Jesus' teachings and the in-dwelling Holy Spirit. sarcasm alert [A] Just imagine what they could have accomplished with good Bible software! [6]
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Matthew C Jones said:
sarcasm alert
Just imagine what they could have accomplished with good Bible software! 
They wouldn't have needed it - they had the original texts [:D]
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Matthew C Jones said:
But I would hope their pastor, family and trusted friends would be the ones they look to when they go weeding out the "dangerous" stumbling blocks.
Speaking as a Pastor Logos introduces a new level of challenge because the material being read is basically "invisible". The great thing about "real books" is that when you visit someone in their own home you can learn quite a lot from their book shelves and the books that are lying around. Unfortunately many Christians, even well educated ones, assume that any book in a Christian book store will be useful. It can also take time to develop the type of relationship with people required for them to discuss what they are reading openly.
Same with Bible Versions, I have a collection called Bibles Used In Church that contains all of the Bibles that I know are used regularly by members of the Church. Interesting omission in the context of this thread is the Amplified but I have that covered off in a hardcopy KJV, Amplified, NIV and NASB parallel. I use the collection to check for variations in the translation that might cause confusion.
Matthew C Jones said:Paul is apparently the only one with formal religious training. The rest were all "lay" men equipped with nothing more than Jesus' teachings and the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.
...and they turned the world upside down! This is of course the paradox and it does seem that there is a danger that we are so busy learning more that w have no time to fulfil the mission that God has given us. Unfortunately it seems that the more we think we know, the more we realise we don't know so the more we study to know.
Another challenge is that not everyone is equipped to study, I know someone who took a theology degree after he retired. He now has a memory full of information, theories and facts that he has no idea how to use and does not really understand that he throws in to discussions. He simply does not have the mental capacity to manage the range and depth of information that the degree covered. His Pastor has tried to address the issues this causes but he remains convinced that the others do not understand because they do not have his theological and intellectual capacity when the reality is that they can't understand because he does not understand and therefore can not explain!
I would rather people had and used the tools to stretch them, even if they do not use them correctly than work with people who are happy to do nothing. As a sweeping and unsubstantiated observation most people that I have known that used the Amplified did so because they had a real desire to develop a better understanding of God's Word as a result the look for other resources to help them and do not rely solely on the Amplified version to improve their knowledge.
The most common misuse that I see of the Amplified, is the one that is common to all versions and that is when the writer or speaker uses it because it better expresses what they want scripture to say. I appreciate that all of the "extra" words makes this easier with the Amplified but in this case the problem is not the uninformed user but actually someone who should know better. The most common occurrence of this seems to be in the daily devotionals where the Amplified and Message are often used to support the daily "wisdom" they deliver.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Graham Owen said:
Speaking as a Pastor Logos introduces a new level of challenge because the material being read is basically "invisible". The great thing about "real books" is that when you visit someone in their own home you can learn quite a lot from their book shelves and the books that are lying around.
My pastor may also be concerned to know I have things in my library he would rather I not expose myself to (Jimmy Swaggart, Calvin, St Augustine, NIV, Anchor Yale Bible.) But I think it might be rather refreshing for a church member to ask their pastor "is there free will in heaven" instead of "what's wrong with allowing my daughter's boyfriend to move in to her bedroom in my home?"
Graham Owen said:This is of course the paradox and it does seem that there is a danger that we are so busy learning more that w have no time to fulfil the mission that God has given us.
But you probably agree our study time can be much more productive using Logos as a tool, thereby giving us more "free" time to get busy for God.
Graham Owen said:look for other resources to help them and do not rely solely on the Amplified version to improve their knowledge.
Which is why I am not too worried about people having access to it. I enjoy The Amplified Bible and paid Logos $29 for it. But I wont adopt Bible doctrine from it any quicker than I would from the Chronicles of Narnia (of which I am also fond.)
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Matthew C Jones said:
My pastor may also be concerned to know I have things in my library he would rather I not expose myself to
Matthew, you seem to be able to take care of yourself and I would hope that your Pastor knows that...
I know a lot of people in my denomination would be shocked at some of the material I not only read but actively seek out because I feel that it is as important to read stuff that challenges what I believe as it is to read stuff that affirms what I believe. For me this is the process that ensures that I understand what I believe and better equips me to explain what I believe.
Matthew C Jones said:"is there free will in heaven"
There's a lady in my Church who you must have been talking to, she asks this sort of question all the time. Many times I have really thanked God for Logos' search capabilities and I have been able to print a few pages with information to help her (and me!!!).
Matthew C Jones said:instead of "what's wrong with allowing my daughter's boyfriend to move in to her bedroom in my home?"
You're kidding, right?
Matthew C Jones said:much more productive using Logos as a too
This is the crux of why and how I use Logos, I simply get more quality study per minute and can access a wider range of material more quickly. I do however have to control my addiction to fascinating information when I use it, my library is close to 3,000 books (and growing) and that's a lot of pages of information.
I not only encourage people to use Bible Software but I buy it for them, I started when Logos had the starter library and now tend to get one of the Nelson Essential Packages. My plan is simple, "teach a man (or woman) to fish". The logic is clear, give people the tools to dig deeper for themselves and you have stronger Christians.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Graham Owen said:Matthew C Jones said:
"is there free will in heaven"
There's a lady in my Church who you must have been talking to, she asks this sort of question all the time. Many times I have really thanked God for Logos' search capabilities and I have been able to print a few pages with information to help her (and me!!!).
You can refer her to this Logos resource:
"Will There Be Free Will in Heaven?: Freedom, Impeccability and Beatitude" is included in the Christian Approaches to Contemporary Thinking Collection (6 vols.)Graham Owen said:Matthew C Jones said:instead of "what's wrong with allowing my daughter's boyfriend to move in to her bedroom in my home?"
You're kidding, right?
Sadly, No. I had the unpleasant experience of being an elder who answered this and similar questions. I am familiar with Jeremiah's distress, being a watchman who cried out warnings that were not heeded.
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Graham Owen said:
I know a lot of people in my denomination would be shocked at some of the material I not only read but actively seek out because I feel that it is as important to read stuff that challenges what I believe as it is to read stuff that affirms what I believe. For me this is the process that ensures that I understand what I believe and better equips me to explain what I believe.
Amen - You are not alone. We 'have' to read what every book in our library says on a subject [It then takes a month to study each verse in all 300 plus commentaries] But do we learn
[The fun part is figuring out where THEY went 'astray' (define ASTRAY as a belief other then MINE) [And the only way to do that is to study how THEY got to THEIR stand] But some one of these days some of US (define US as all LOGOS users who use all of their books and not just the ones 'that affirms what [they] believe') are going to find out that they are in the wrong Church [which is why 'lot of people in my denomination' do not want US reading that 'JUNK' (define JUNK as anything not approved by your denomination)] ] [Which is why the Bible is baned in some middle east nations]
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