NT translation with Hebraic expressions intact

This may seem stupid and I'm probably overlooking an obvious resource.

What's a good NT English translation that has Hebraic expressions intact?

I mean in the sense that they are rendered in the source Greek in what one might consider hebrew word order. (Like “from the womb” = ἐκ κοιλίας = מבטן or מרחם) and translated as such.

That didn't make any sense did it?

I'm not looking for a "restored" version like Stern's CJB.
Am I stuck with a KJV/NAS?

Obviously I need to stay away from function ("dynamic") translations.

Should I be thinking of some other secondary source that would list known or allusional Hebraisms? Is there such a modern work?

Huh?

EDIT: Maybe I shouldn't have asked if there was "such a modern work" since the majority of modern translation is "fuctional/dynamic".

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Rich DeRuiter

What's a good NT English translation that has Hebraic expressions intact?

One of the better ones is Young's Literal. The language is a bit dated, and he isn't always literal with some of these, but he is literal more often than any other translation I know.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/198820#Comment_198820

I just did an All Bibles search for "from the womb" in the NT, and Young's Literal was the only version (apart from the Message!) to have any hits.

MJ. Smith

secondary source that would list known or allusional Hebraisms? Is there such a modern work?

I think you need to consider secondary sources - many of the phrases have no meaning it translated literally. Think of English "kick the bucket" --> die or "the bucket list" --> things to do before you die ... some like "as the crow flies" would translate but such Hebraic expressions have often slipped into English (religious) usage e.g.. swords to plough shears

Rick Brannan (Logos)

Anthony —

I mean in the sense that they are rendered in the source Greek in what one might consider hebrew word order. (Like “from the womb” = ἐκ κοιλίας = מבטן or מרחם) and translated as such.

One option not mentioned yet would be the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament (and the SBL Edition of the same). The translation line for Mt 1.18 (your example) reads "she was found in the womb to have"; there is a note here that it is an "idiom", with the more English-y translation "to be pregnant". If you don't have them already, these interlinears are reasonably priced in a bundle: http://www.logos.com/product/8569/lexham-greek-english-interlinear-new-testament-collection

The Lexham English Bible has "to be pregnant" but also has an idiom notation that this is literally "she was found in the womb to have". Idioms in the LEB are marked by lower-corner brackets, that could be your cue to check such things in the English. The LEB is free, both generally (http://lexhamenglishbible.com) and for Logos users: http://www.logos.com/product/6162/lexham-english-bible

Hope it helps.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/198858#Comment_198858

Anthony —

I mean in the sense that they are rendered in the source Greek in what one might consider hebrew word order. (Like “from the womb” = ἐκ κοιλίας = מבטן or מרחם) and translated as such.

One option not mentioned yet would be the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament (and the SBL Edition of the same). The translation line for Mt 1.18 (your example) reads "she was found in the womb to have"; there is a note here that it is an "idiom", with the more English-y translation "to be pregnant". If you don't have them already, these interlinears are reasonably priced in a bundle: http://www.logos.com/product/8569/lexham-greek-english-interlinear-new-testament-collection

The Lexham English Bible has "to be pregnant" but also has an idiom notation that this is literally "she was found in the womb to have". Idioms in the LEB are marked by lower-corner brackets, that could be your cue to check such things in the English. The LEB is free, both generally (http://lexhamenglishbible.com) and for Logos users: http://www.logos.com/product/6162/lexham-english-bible

Hope it helps.

Thanks Rick. I actually do have these Lexham resources and have utilized them to some extent for this purpose... though my reference was the "ἐκ κοιλίας μητρός μου" of Gal. 1:15 -16a (see below M. Silva, Beale and Carson). What is the differnce between the SBL version and the original Lexham bundle version?

secondary source that would list known or allusional Hebraisms? Is there such a modern work?

I think you need to consider secondary sources - many of the phrases have no meaning it translated literally. Think of English "kick the bucket" --> die or "the bucket list" --> things to do before you die ... some like "as the crow flies" would translate but such Hebraic expressions have often slipped into English (religious) usage e.g.. swords to plough shears

Quite honestly, I think I'm asking the wrong question. Speaking before formulation of a complete thought. Bad habit on my part.
I understand your point, but in fact what I am wanting is the "phrases" intact. I’m not necessarily looking to make sense of the English translation (intially).

In Beale and Carson’s "Commentary on NT use of OT", in the chapter on Galatians, M. Silva makes mention of the obvious connection between Gal. 1:15-16a, Isa. 49:1 and Jer. 1:5, and while it's very good (very, very good), I'm look for something a little “further into” the study. You might say it wet my appetite in conjunction with a Rounge's Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament and K. Barnwell's Bible Translation introduction course book from SIL (among others).

I have several resources that are within this area of allusions, idiom and the like. They do scope out some references but they don’t meet the depth.

Another way would be to say, I'm looking for a resources that might map “phrases” that are difficult in the Greek (because of unusual word order or morphological form, idiom, etc.) back to or are recognized (factual or supposition) as Hebraic in origin with further discussion/expansion.

Maybe something called "Hebraic forms of expression from the Old Testament with theological significance and used in the New Testament". LOL [:P]

For instance, the ability to identify sentences as Semitic because the verbs tends to come first as opposed to a sentence formed by a native Greek of the era who is not influenced by Semitic sentence forms. In some ways I suppose it (it being the resource(s)) will have to deal with comparative Hebrew-Greek Grammar, - word order, conjunctional use or absence, etc.

It doesn't necessarily need to exist in Logos...yet.

EDIT: I just found a resource that defines what I'm looking for as "linguistic Hebraisms", Duh on me!

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/198840#Comment_198840

I just did an All Bibles search for "from the womb" in the NT, and Young's Literal was the only version (apart from the Message!) to have any hits.

The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint 5 results in 5 verses

Judg 16:17
καὶ ἀπήγγειλεν αὐτῇ πάντα τὰ ἀπὸ καρδίας αὐτοῦ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ Ξυρὸν οὐκ ἀναβήσεται ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλήν μου, ὅτι ναζιραῖος θεοῦ ἐγώ εἰμι ἐκ κοιλίας μητρός μου, καὶ ἐὰν ξυρήσωμαι, ἀποστήσεται ἀπʼ ἐμοῦ ἡ ἰσχύς μου, καὶ ἀσθενήσω καὶ ἔσομαι κατὰ πάντας τοὺς ἀνθρώπους.

(Ps 22:10) Ps 21:11
ἐπὶ σὲ ἐπερρίφην ἐκ μήτρας, ἐκ κοιλίας μητρός μου θεός μου εἶ σύ.

(Psalm 71:6) Ps 70:6
ἐπὶ σὲ ἐπεστηρίχθην ἀπὸ γαστρός, ἐκ κοιλίας μητρός μου σύ μου εἶ σκεπαστής, ἐν σοὶ ἡ ὕμνησίς μου διὰ παντός.

Job 1:21
Αὐτὸς γυμνὸς ἐξῆλθον ἐκ κοιλίας μητρός μου, γυμνὸς καὶ ἀπελεύσομαι ἐκεῖ, ὁ κύριος ἔδωκεν, ὁ κύριος ἀφείλατο, ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ ἔδοξεν, οὕτως καὶ ἐγένετο, εἴη τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου εὐλογημένον.

Isa 49:1
Ἀκούσατέ μου, νῆσοι, καὶ προσέχετε, ἔθνη, διὰ χρόνου πολλοῦ στήσεται, λέγει κύριος. ἐκ κοιλίας μητρός μου ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομά μου

This kind of make them Septuagintalisms more than linguistic Hebraisms thought the resuts are better than YLT's.

Vincent Setterholm

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/199224#Comment_199224

It's not quite what you're looking for, but we recently posted a prepublication special on a series of Eerdmans titles that includes 2 books by Fitzmyer on the Semitic background of the New Testament, along with a number of other compelling, though mostly unrelated, titles: http://www.logos.com/product/8643/eerdmans-biblical-resources-series

The Fitzmyer essays should give some food for thought on these kinds of issues, even though there isn't a NT translation in the collection.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/199407#Comment_199407

It's not quite what you're looking for, but we recently posted a prepublication special on a series of Eerdmans titles that includes 2 books by Fitzmyer on the Semitic background of the New Testament, along with a number of other compelling, though mostly unrelated, titles: http://www.logos.com/product/8643/eerdmans-biblical-resources-series

The Fitzmyer essays should give some food for thought on these kinds of issues, even though there isn't a NT translation in the collection.

I have read books by Fitzmyer, he is an excellent theologian!! Let's get this one into production!

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/199407#Comment_199407

It's not quite what you're looking for, but we recently posted a prepublication special on a series of Eerdmans titles that includes 2 books by Fitzmyer on the Semitic background of the New Testament, along with a number of other compelling, though mostly unrelated, titles: http://www.logos.com/product/8643/eerdmans-biblical-resources-series

The Fitzmyer essays should give some food for thought on these kinds of issues, even though there isn't a NT translation in the collection.

Well, I have resigned myself to the fact that there isn't a NT translation to suite the need. I would like the Fitzmyer Semitic Background volumes but I'm not sure I would utilize the addition resources... in time perhaps.

I may have to go through some print journals and gather clippings into Logos.

Thanks everyone [8-|]