Need some paper help... :)

Who has a paper copy of Enhanced Strong's Lexicon?

Can someone verify for me that the entry for the paper version is the same for the electronic version? Specifically for definition 8a "of believers only" for the entry for Strongs # 2889 "kosmos"?

I am dialoguing with a person who says that there is some nefarious plot to "add" definition 8a to this entry and that the "gold standard" i.e. his particular paper version doesn't have this definition.

I do see his faulty reasoning, but I'd also like to verify that the Logos version is accurate.

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DominicM

I think he is confused, I think I encountereds this a few years back,and if I recall correctly on investigation found this 8a definition meaning "of believers only" appears in Thayers, and not Strongs,

I dont have either in paper form tho.. and senility set in at 30 so I may be wrong..

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200877#Comment_200877

Dom,

thanks...

I do know that 8a appears in Logos Strong's Exhaustive Concordance...I don't have thayer's so I can't tell.

Mark Barnes

I think you mean Strong's Lexicon, not the Concordance. The Strong's Lexicon (called Enhanced Strong's Lexicon) in Logos is not edited by Strong that I'm aware of, and rather merely uses his numbers and definitions culled from other lexicons.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200882#Comment_200882

Yes..that's what I meant Mark....whoops....

I edited my original post to fix this boo boo....

Now come on! Someone must have a paper copy right?

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200883#Comment_200883

.... on a Sunday morning? Not me. I need to get ready for worship. And then am preaching till 4:00 PM - if no answer tonight I will take a look. Also,

Why Strong - use one of the better lexicons. I would not consider Strong (enhanced or otherwise) to be the "Gold Standard"
Have you checked any of the on-line copies of Strong? A Google search could give you some hints as to where to look for those. Of course, these are not paper, but it would give you a heads up of what you might expect to find in the paper copy.
Finally, ask yourself, "Does the fact that Strong Enhanced may be edited make it wrong?" Could be that Strong got it wrong in the first place.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200886#Comment_200886

Floyd,

I too told him that Strong's wasn't the be-all end-all of lexicons but that wasn't his point...I'll try and restate what he said:

"X is a false teacher because he said that Strong's Lexicon had entry 8a...and my paper copy of Strong's doesn't have entry 8a...only the online or electronic versions do...therefore the online and electronic versions have PERVERTED and ADDED to the REAL VERSION "...(for "real version" read: his particular paper version)

is that more clear?

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200889#Comment_200889

Sorry, I misunderstood. And since you piqued my interest I went looking for my copy of Strong - and it has been so long since I have used it, I could not find it (ouch). I'll continue looking after church this afternoon.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200889#Comment_200889

Floyd,

I too told him that Strong's wasn't the be-all end-all of lexicons but that wasn't his point...I'll try and restate what he said:

"X is a false teacher because he said that Strong's Lexicon had entry 8a...and my paper copy of Strong's doesn't have entry 8a...only the online or electronic versions do...therefore the online and electronic versions have PERVERTED and ADDED to the REAL VERSION "...(for "real version" read: his particular paper version)

is that more clear?

Well, we don't have Church this morning because of the blizzard so I thought I might take a few minutes and investigate.

I have Thayer's in print. ISBN 5-56563-209-5. Seventh Printing - March 2005. There is no listing of 8a. It ends on 8 alone. I also have a digital copy in another software program and it is identical to my print edition.

8“any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort” (cf. English “a world of curses” (Shakspere), etc.): ὁκοσμος της αδικιας, the sum of all iniquities, James 3:6; του πιστου ὁλοςὁκοσμος των χρηματων, του δε απιστου ουδε οβολος (a statement due to the Alexandrian LXX translators), Proverbs 17:6. Among the N.T. writers no one uses κοσμος oftener than John; it occurs in Mark three times, in Luke’s writings four times, and in the Apocalypse three tinms. Cf. Kreiss, Sur le sens du mot κοσμος dans le N.T. (Strasb. 1837); Düsterdieck on 1 John 2:15, pp. 247-259; Zezschwitz, Profangräcität u. Biblical Sprachgeist, p. 21ff; Diestel in Herzog xvii., p. 676ff; (Trench, Synonyms, sec. lix.); on John’s use of the word cf. Reuss, Histoire de la theologie chretienne au siecle apostolique, ii., p. 463ff (i.e. livre 7 chapter viii.); cf. his Johanneische Theologie, in the Beiträge zu den theol. Wissenschaften, Fasc. i., p. 29ff; (Westcott on John 1:10, ‘Additional Note’).*

—Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon

I was thinking this sounds more like a "Vine's" issue so I had a look in Vines....sure enough. If we make the comparison I think you can see an adaptation or association.

-------
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon (Logos Electronic)
# 2889 "kosmos"
8A the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc). 8A of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19.

Vine's (print Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament, ISBN 0-7852-1160-8, 1996. [Printing 22 -05 04] )
# 2889 "kosmos"
(d) "Gentiles" as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Rom. 11:12, 15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cf. 2 Cor. 5:19);

-------

The listing of 8a in the electronic version of "Enhanced Strong's Lexicon" isn't dubious as a definition since it is expressed by the contextual use of "Kosmos" in Rom. 11:12, 15 and 2 Cor. 5:19.

As I'm sure you already recognize that in this case Vine's makes it clearer in the use of, "all who will may be reconciled". In a sense, humanity-the world (or Kosmos as a people group) who would become believers and that is where I think the leap to ESL's ends.

Others like Michael Aubrey may be able to speak more directly about sources and their proliferation into modern Lexicons. (Which I supect is your side of the discussion.)

"PERVERTED and ADDED to the REAL VERSION " seems misinformed at best.
I'm guessing that he only has the Strong's LXX and has never bothered to look any further. With Christmas here you could buy him a gift of the TDNTA.

I Pray that it helps.

Anthony

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200899#Comment_200899

Thank you Floyd and Anthony...

Anyone have the paper version of Strong's?

Are you forcing me to make a trip to the dread Bible bookstore?

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200956#Comment_200956

I had forgotten that they printed books.[;)]

Sorry Robert, I gave mine away to an old deacon several years ago.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200962#Comment_200962

Robert,

There is no print version of "Enhanced Strong's Lexicon." The enhancement is from Thayers. I have Thayers in 4 other software programs. Only one of them shows the additional definition for 8a under G2889... Mantis Bible for iPad. The other two do not have 8a present (Accordance, BibleWorks and WordSearch)

8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort (cf. English a world of curses (Shakspere), etc.): ho kosmos tēs adikias, the sum of all iniquities, James 3:6; tou pistou holos ho kosmos tōn chrēmatōn, tou de apistou oude obolos (a statement due to the Alexandrian LXX translators), Prov. 17:6. Among the N.T. writers no one uses kosmos oftener than John; it occurs in Mark three times, in Luke’s writings four times, and in the Apocalypse three tinms. Cf. Kreiss, Sur le sens du mot kosmos dans le N.T. (Strasb. 1837); Düsterdieck on 1 John 2:15, pp. 247-259; Zezschwitz, Profangräcität u. Biblical Sprachgeist, p. 21ff; Diestel in Herzog xvii., p. 676ff; (Trench, Synonyms, sec. lix.); on John’s use of the word cf. Reuss, Histoire de la theologie chretienne au siecle apostolique, ii., p. 463ff (i.e. livre 7 chapter viii.); cf. his Johanneische Theologie, in the Beiträge zu den theol. Wissenschaften, Fasc. i., p. 29ff; (Westcott on John 1:10, ‘Additional Note’)

Hopefully this helps.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200978#Comment_200978

Well..I just checked...the guy is definitely referencing "Strong's Concordance"....not "Strong's Lexicon."

I think that IF there is no electronic version of Strong's Concordance...then he's confusing the "Strong's lexicon" with it.

John Nerdue

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/201005#Comment_201005

I checked my paper "strong's Concordance" and the "Stron's Complete Dictionary of Bible words" and they only have a short def. I looked at my paper "Thayers" and it has 8 def but doesn't have a,b, ect. My "New Englishman's Concordance and Lexicon" dosn't have the def you mention either.

I don't know of any paper "Strong's Lexicon" other than the one found in the back of the Concordance which realy is just a gloss.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/201017#Comment_201017

James,

thanks...that's the info I needed....much appreciated.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/201024#Comment_201024

I just check my paper Strongs "Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible" 2001 and it ends with 7 listings but number 4 reads nearly identical to Vines that I quoted above (4. "Gentiles" as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Rom. 11:12, 15) it is missing - "where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cf. 2 Cor. 5:19)"

I checked my 2nd edition BAGD (1979 printing) and 5b reads very close to Enhanced Strong's Lexicon (Logos Electronic).

2nd Edition BAGD
"Kosmos"
-5b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God's love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

Vine's (print Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament, ISBN 0-7852-1160-8, 1996. [Printing 22 -05 04] )
# 2889 "kosmos"
-(d) "Gentiles" as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Rom. 11:12, 15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cf. 2 Cor. 5:19);

Enhanced Strong's Lexicon (Logos Electronic)
# 2889 "kosmos"
-8A the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc). 8A of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19.

It looks to me that the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon (Logos Electronic) "8a" is a combined and trimmed down version of Vine's-BAGD-Strong's. Which would make sense from a compiler/editor perspective of ESL (Woodside Bible Fellowship).

Nelson Banuchi

Hi folks, I'm new to this forum but not to the problem since I've spent much time researching it on the net ever since I found it on a Bible study website. Allow me to briefly share what I've found:

Two sub-headings ("a" and "b") under definiton #8 are purported to be by Thayer in the abridged version of his lexicon, Thayer's Greek Definitions (others say it belong's to the Strong's Enhanced Concordance and is found in many Bible study websites (for example see: http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2889.

Both sub-heading are unwarranted, especially offensive is "b", for the following reasons:

1. Every website I looked into that has the electronic language reference attributes these sub-headings as defintions by Thayer (and, at times, Strong; for example, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yqwg1y6aF8&feature=PlayList&p=1B23AEFD77CCD609&index=1&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL).

2. Neither the original Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon nor Strong's Exhaustive Concordance has any such sub-headings or defintions.

2. No reputable lexicon adds these sub-headings to their defintion of kosmos citing Jn 3:16 (or any other verse for that matter).

3. It seems that both sub-headings were taken from one of AW Pink's studies and not from any NT Greek language resource or scholar (see: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Miscellaneous/kosmos.htm)

4. From a Biblical point of view: (a) the context of Jn 3:16 argues against any such definition as "of believers only" or "the elect"; (b) there is nowhere in the Bible (as far as I can) tell where kosmos refers to "believers only"; wherever the term is used, with reference to man or the ruling principle in the world, it is understood within the context as that which is hostile to God.

In conclusion, it seems that such definition under sub-headings (8a) and (8b) were added for the purpose of giving weight to a particular doctrine; they are both fabrications, false entries. And it seems that every single online Bible resource includes this electronic "lexicon" with it's fraudulent defintions for kosmos as being here discussed.

I have been told that this fraudulent version is in the e-sword version (and what seems to be the same one on line and perhaps now this expanded Strong's version authored by a church [Woodside Bible Fellowship?] and published by a software producer (Logos Research Systems?). I have much difficulty in attempting to contact the the makers of e-sword or whoever added said defintionis. Since I am informed that Logos is the producer, I am wondering if anyone here can direct me to the person to whose attention I may bring this problem. The authors of this electronic "lexicon" and Logos, if Logos produced it, both should make every effort to rectify it.

Thank you.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391225#Comment_391225

published by a software producer (Logos Research Systems?).

Nelson Logos Research Systems is Logos Bible Software. (http://www.logos.com/about/history for more details on the company's history)

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391225#Comment_391225

Since I am informed that Logos is the producer, I am wondering if anyone here can direct me to the person to whose attention I may bring this problem.

Welcome [:D]

Logos 4 has an option to highlight text, right click, then "Report typo"

After a typo is reported, an email is sent from Logos that the typo has been logged for review:

Thank you for reporting the typo in - Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon

We have logged the typo. It is now available to the electronic publisher and will be reviewed when the publisher next updates the data files for this text.

Thank you for your help. This message is only sent once per day even when more than one typo is reported.

Logos Bible Software

Keep Smiling [:)]

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391225#Comment_391225

In conclusion, it seems that such definition under sub-headings (8a) and (8b) were added for the purpose of giving weight to a particular doctrine; they are both fabrications, false entries.

Wow, this is heavy stuff. It reminded me immediately of how people with an agenda tricked Erasmus to include the Comma Johanneum in his Greek Text which was to become the Textus Receptus.

Nelson Banuchi

I believe Robert is referring to me as the person who claims the erroneous additon of defintion in question for kosmos in John 3:16.

Although 8a also may in fact be incorrect, my disagreement is over definition "8b. of believers only" and not 8a. 8b has no support from any scholarly lexicon in print form. It seems this definition was copied off a Bible Study by AW Pink and it seems that some websites are pawning this definition off as something found in Thayer or Strong's (listen to the first 30 seconds or so of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yqwg1y6aF8&feature=relmfu), when actually it is found in only one electronic source, which I am told is esword put out by Logos.

See my blog:http://atdcross.blogspot.com/2012/10/swordfight-kosmos-in-john-316.html.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391301#Comment_391301

Wow, this is heavy stuff. It reminded me immediately of how people with an agenda tricked Erasmus to include the Comma Johanneum in his Greek Text which was to become the Textus Receptus.

Thanks, Mick, for that information! After all the years God has given me, I never knew that!

Appreciate your sharing! *smile* Peace to you! ... and ... Always Joy in the Lord!

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406101#Comment_406101

when actually it is found in only one electronic source, which I am told is esword put out by Logos.

FYI: eSword is not affiliated with Logos. I have both products.

In eSword, Thayer's Lexicon has the 8b definition.
In Logos, the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon has the 8b definition (Thayer is also available in Logos, but I don't own it in that format).
It's also found in the online Thayer's Lexicon at Bible study tools: http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/kosmos.html

So it's in at least three electronic sources, if not more, considering how public domain resources get copied around in this electronic world.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406110#Comment_406110

when actually it is found in only one electronic source, which I am told is esword put out by Logos.

FYI: eSword is not affiliated with Logos. I have both products.

In eSword, Thayer's Lexicon has the 8b definition.

Then they (or the people who compiled the data for them) faked it. Is there an eSword module Thayer's Lexicon" with the complete text? I just fired up my eSword to have a look and only saw a resource "Thayer's definitions" available, that looks just like another version of ESL.

I have the full Thayer's in WordSearch and #8 has no distinction. Moreover, I looked up the scanned paper version on archive.org: http://archive.org/stream/agreekenglishle00wilkgoog#page/n385/mode/2up and http://archive.org/stream/agreekenglishle00wilkgoog#page/n387/mode/2up

Everybody can see what's there in #8. No a or b.

Moreover, Thayer's definitely doesn't cite the bible verses Pink wanted to attribute his distorted meaning to, since they are treated in other parts of Thayer's definition. If ESL wasn't just providing abbreviated glosses but bible references as well (it's telling that they now show up in the second 8a what some claim to be 8b), this would be clear. E.g. Jn. 1:29; 3:16f and 6:33 is treated under #5 "the inhabitants of the world, particularly "the inhabitants of the earth, the human race".

In Logos, the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon has the 8b definition

actually it has this addition as a second 8a

I put all of these together in a Word doc: 7356.Faking the meaning of Kosmos.docx

For me, the Thayer's lexicon looks like a back-then-version of TDNT or BDAG, a lexicon full of scholarship that aquired a stellar reputation. To capitalize on this and put one's own partisan ideas into it, without making an editor's note is a betrayal of every reader. Undoubtedly the people who did this just wanted to reflect their product the best of what they thought should be in it. Some people may agree with Pink, some not. But this isn't the point here. The end doesn't justify the means - and such things always backfire.

Hopefully some responsible editors at Logos and at the multitude of websites that mirror ESL or Thayer's definitions update their resources.

Nelson Banuchi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406110#Comment_406110

Todd, although I'm not sure if you're reply is in support of the defintion of kosmos as "believers only" or not, compare the Bible study website you listed with studylight.org's lexiconal entry (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2889) and you will find that they are exactly the same (except that the latter numbers the defintions), which is my point; all these entries seem to have been copies originating from one source (esword?). You can go through a search of many Bible studies online and find the same exact lexiconal entry for kosmos.

For anyone to use these online websites to support their position regarding the definition of kosmos as "believers only" in Jn 3:16 and interpret it in that light is very, very weak and untenable when considered against scholarly printed resources.

Nelson Banuchi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406204#Comment_406204

Hi Mick, thanks for the Word doc on "Faking".

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406222#Comment_406222

Todd, although I'm not sure if you're reply is in support of the defintion of kosmos as "believers only" or not,

I'm not posting to support anything. Just pointing out that the source of the definition is not one particular bible software. It must some prior source since it currently occurs in multiple products from multiple sources. I was hoping to keep Logos or eSword from being defamed as the source of the error.

I personally would prefer that people use modern lexicons and especially not rely on public domain resources that are not clearly attributed and also not treat any lexicon as if it were inspired.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406224#Comment_406224

Just pointing out that the source of the definition is not one particular bible software. It must some prior source since it currently occurs in multiple products from multiple sources.

There's been a recent discussion as to the source of the info in ESL here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/56234/405146.aspx#405146

Nelson Banuchi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406224#Comment_406224

Oh, thanks, Todd, for clarifying this. I also stand corrected if it seemed I was stating that the original source of the entry was esword. I meant that all the online Bible studies seem to have esword's use of the erroneous entry in discussion. I think the source of the entry was taken from a bible study by AW Pink and copied onto esword, see: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Miscellaneous/kosmos.htm.

Also, thanks for the other link. I'm unable to read it now, but I'll get to it tomorrow.

Luigi Sam

hi, I dont have the strongs hard copy, but I do have a hard copy of:

Youngs Lecixon/analytical concordance, (1982 Thomas Nelson)

in the lexicon part it just has two words for Kosmos Strongs(#2889):

adorning 1

world 187

(and im guessing the numbers beside these words are the hits in the kjv)

Mike Childs

It really would not make any difference whether or not Strong's Lexicon had the 8a definition. That is a theologically based interpretation, not a real definition. Go to a real lexicon like BDAG, if you want a real definition. Strong's will give you just enough knowledge to get into real trouble. It is worth the effort to deal with a lexicon that has a scholarly reputation, and then get some help from a reliable commentary to help you understand what you have learned.

Heretics beware! The true definition is not 8a, but 26z!

There are many who will bend - even pervert - language and definitions to fit a particular theology. "It must mean that because my theology requires it to mean that." That is how such definitions make their way into books. Some radio preacher says it; somebody copies it down; it is repeated; so it must be true.

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406341#Comment_406341

Go to a real lexicon like BDAG, if you want a real definition. Strong's will give you just enough knowledge to get into real trouble.

I would agree, Strong's is not the "Gold Standard" anyway, I don't use it. If I want a short definition I use the DBL Dictionaries (because they link to TDNT), but I think the Gold Standards would be BDAG, LSJ, TDNT (Big Kittle). Strong's really doesn't give enough information on the words.