Are they still working on it? When would it be expected? Is this a promise forgotten and unkept?
I can't imagine it's dead. Delayed, yes. The date for it has slipped to the indefinite '2011'. That isn't encouraging to those of us who wanted it a year ago.
It isn't in beta testing. There are still two features that were promised for this quarter (ahead of PBB) that haven't been seen in beta, so looks like more slippage. This and the Sermon File are two significant pieces of L3 that are still missing in L4. Perhaps we can get a better word on this from someone at Logos.
I wonder how Logos will solve the problem related to the cloud architecture in Logos 4.
As it is now, PBB resources should be stored on Logos side, which means Logos staff will have to spent human resources on controlling the legal status of each resource.
Otherwise, there should be some external public-driven cloud. Perhaps, something like a "peer-to-peer" Logos cloud of resources. A worldwide library stored "nowhere" :-)
I wonder how Logos will solve the problem related to the cloud architecture in Logos 4. As it is now, PBB resources should be stored on Logos side, which means Logos staff will have to spent human resources on controlling the legal status of each resource.
MAYBE the copyrights issue of PBB will FORCE Logos to NOT sync everything and solve that issue for others [like notes, prayer list, other optional personal stuff]
or MAYBE PBB will not enter the 'cloud' because of the copyrights issue. [and get others upset because they are not sync (there is always flash drives - and Logos could tell us what PBB are not on THIS machine by sync only the PBB file names)]
I may be wrong, but I wonder if at least how it is going to work has been flushed out such that it could be communicated. It could be a nice opportunity for feedback (the problem is they would get a lot of feedback [;)])
Hey Logos, are you listening?
among our books, PBB glistening,
a beautiful sight,
we'd be happy tonite,
reading in a dig'tal wonderland.
Having purchased the PBB just before purchasing Logos 4 (when I discovered that it wasn't supported), I was not only disappointed I was completely shocked that one of the best and most popular features had not been prepared before the L4 release. It remains one of the very few serious flaws I believe L4 to have.
Sure I can still read my personal books in L3, but that doesn't change the fact that I purchased the PBB for a version of Logos which is now legacy. There is absolutely no point in me using the PBB to create works for a version which is no longer supported, and since L4 is so much better in virtually every way there is no reason for me to even open L3 unless I want to read personal books I have already downloaded from others.
It's a shame that I bought a feature I will likely never use, for a version of Logos which is no longer going to be supported or developed. It's fair enough for L3 to not to be supported or developed further, but it's a crying shame that L4 was not given this feature, and it's even more of a crying shame that it appears to have been deprioritized to the point of being put on permanent hold.
it's even more of a crying shame that it appears to have been deprioritized to the point of being put on permanent hold.
Looks like it is at the top of the list for 2011, however it does seem to come at a snail pace. I appreciate the Christmas specials they have given us, even if it means we have to wait a little longer for PBB.
2011Personal Book Builder (Improved to use the native book format!)Sermon FileIllustrations section in Passage Guide
Hey Logos, are you listening? among our books, PBB glistening, a beautiful sight, we'd be happy tonite, reading in a dig'tal wonderland.
We say, "Is it ready?" [8]
You say, "No, Man!"[8]
"Gotta lotta bugs to figure out!" [8]
We say, "How much longer?" [8]
You say, "Oh, Man!" [8]
"You're gonna love it, that's beyond a doubt!" [8]
Looks like it is at the top of the list for 2011, however it does seem to come at a snail pace.
I'll believe it's being prioritized when I see evidence for it. The way it has slipped repeatedly past several 'due by' dates does not instill confidence.
I've gotta say, I'm pretty disappointed in the way PBB keeps getting pushed back further and further (and now seems to be put on the back burner indefinitely with that vague "2011" timeline). Logos, please let use know what is going on. You told us to expect PBB many months ago. What's up?
There are three issues that have bothered me the most about Logos 4, they are the attitude towards notes, attitude towards printing and the attitude towards pbb.
It was sad to see a new software lose the usefulness of Libronix 3 in these three areas. And to this day I really am only happy with what they have done with printing.
I have about 1000 pbb books that I can not use in Logos 4, it has been that way for over a year, please fix this!
On the plus side thanks so much for all the improved areas of Logos 4 and for having some great sales on so many items this last year!
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
Since I never used PBB in L3, can someone give me the "elevator pitch" for the feature (the "lift pitch" for those of you in the U.K. ? Maybe that will help me understand the passion people have for it.
Thanks,
Donnie
Donnie,
PBB allows you to create a book that you can use within Logos. In Libronix, PBBs didn't have all of the features of regular Logos resources, but many people, including myself, creating lots of PBB resources that Logos have not created themselves. For example, I created almost all of E.W. Hengstenberg's and Patrick Fairbairn's books as PBBs.
Even if you didn't spring to purchase PBB, if you bought a regular collection from Logos you received a PBB reading key that allowed you to read all of the PBBs made by the community. Hence it's usefulness and importance.
In Logos 4, Logos said that PBBs would have the exact same functionality as regular resources.
Bill
Donnie, PBB allows you to create a book that you can use within Logos. In Libronix, PBBs didn't have all of the features of regular Logos resources, but many people, including myself, creating lots of PBB resources that Logos have not created themselves. For example, I created almost all of E.W. Hengstenberg's and Patrick Fairbairn's books as PBBs. Even if you didn't spring to purchase PBB, if you bought a regular collection from Logos you received a PBB reading key that allowed you to read all of the PBBs made by the community. Hence it's usefulness and importance. In Logos 4, Logos said that PBBs would have the exact same functionality as regular resources. Bill
Yes, you build some great resources. Thank you Bill so much for them. [Y] What a pity we are not able to use them here in Logos 4.
I hope postponing the PBB further does not mean any change in the decision to make it a great tool for building the full fledged books for Logos. We need that very much.
Like a Verizon iPhone and a long lasting battery for a Windows slate, I will believe that this exists only when I see it. Many of the things on the to do list that we were promised would be done by the end of 2010 are happening and I am assuming they won't be until they do. I would suggest everyone plan the same way.
Would I be rude to point out: "I told you so!" ?? You can get a little revenge by taunting the spelling errors in my original quote; if it makes you fell better about it. [6]http://community.logos.com/forums/p/18480/139160.aspx#139160
I said last January I doubt we ever get the 900+ Libronix PBBs converted to Logos 4.0 format. I do believe Bob Pritchett when he says we will have a PBB authoring capability in Logos 4. But I don't see why Logos should make the whole Libronix PBB library available when it would mean doing the same converting, polishing and maintenance of a retail Logos product (remember Bob said "no second class" resources) and have virtually no financial return on investment. I predict we will see some type of new format that has a cost associated with making it available. I imagine Logos will maintain strict control over what PBBs get published in the new format. I also would expect Logos to limit some public domain titles to retail only production. The rationale for this would be: "To maintain the highest quality standards of tagging, and formating for the benefit of the broad base of interested Logos users." So I doubt the current Logos 4 versions of public domain titles are in any danger of being replaced by "free" PBBs from the Libronix days or future user authorship.Just my $.02 worth. (I have been eerily right more times than not. Althoogh nobody keeps a tallyZip it! )
I just don't see how Logos can deliver PBBs in Logos 4 native format without an expensive administration overhead. edit: I just had a grand idea; Make all the PBBs accessible by a subscription fee that covers the administration costs alone.
Thank you for your compliment; I am glad to hear you have found the PBBs useful. I fully intend to convert as many of them to Logos 4 as I can. Maybe I can get some help. [:)]
I remember Bob saying something quite some time ago that there would be some kind of cost involved with PBBs in L4 - here is what he said last May:
[quote]
PBB for Logos 4 isn't coded yet... so things are still flexible.
The basic idea is:
A) No more second-class citizens. PBB will use the same internal file format as books we distribute, so highlighting and other features "just work."
Compiling will probably be done on the server. (Because we're making PBB books first-class citizens, they need to go through the primary metadata and license databases, so we can sync them to your multiple devices, let your read your PBB's on your iPhone, etc.)
C) Your content defaults to private, just like your notes and other information.
D) You'll have the option to share your books with "groups" of other people. (And your notes, highlights, etc.) You'll have per-file control of exactly what you share and who you share it with.
E) We're considering a PBB store, like the App Stores for mobile phones, where you could choose to sell PBB's for which you owned the copyright, with Logos handling the credit card transactions, downloading, etc.
This is just "the state of the thinking"....
-- Bob
Note point E above.
To me this is an integrity problem. Logos promised us PBB. Originally, it was scheduled for the first quarter of last year. It is one of the most requested features. It has been pushed back again and again.
Because of my history with Logos, I trust that they will get it done. They are a very honorable company. This just seems so out of character for them. I wish they would move it up the priority list.
I wish they would move it up the priority list.
Like you say, I am sure they will get it done. Although I would like to see it get done soon, Now that I think more about it I would like to see the Hebrew pronunciation addin get done first. I am sure it's older than L4 PBB
Overall, I am ok for everything that is getting done.
I still wonder if part of the delay for the L4 PBB capability has to do with Public Domain resources?
I concur.
There was also a huge delay in development of Mac version. But now as that is done, we switch our attention to PBB :-)
Let's hope that they will do it well.
"E) We're considering a PBB store, like the App Stores for mobile phones, where you could choose to sell PBB's for which you owned the copyright, with Logos handling the credit card transactions, downloading, etc. This is just "the state of the thinking"....-- Bob". Note point E above.
Yeah, but most of the 1000 PBBs that have been produced are not copyright-able. So Logos will have to decide which public domain PBBs get published and which duplicate titles do not. Just imagine, if the first PBB book produced is the only copy Logos will offer, we will have to settle inferior product sometimes. I can't see Bob finessing two PBBs of the same work. He stated the L4 PBBs will be polished, quality books. They will also have to sync with the Logos servers. So I believe it will be "first-come, first-published." In traditional publishing, frequently a second or third translation of a work is far superior to the first. In a profit-protecting monopoly, we will only have the first attempt. My solution is to grant access to public domain or GNU licensed materials by a small annual subscription. Then offer self-authored PBBs for whatever the author charges as just another Logos publication.
.
For me personally the big loss would be not to be able anymore to produce PBB books just for me (as with the Private Version of the Book Builder). For some resources I do not have copyright to offer to others, I could still use it on my computer.
I liked PBB's and look forward to them...I do, however work in a manufacturing environment and understand that the best laid plans...and the most sincere promises sometimes get derailed by issues beyond everyone's control...that's just a fact of life when producing a product...I'm patient and can wait.
To me this is an integrity problem. Logos promised us PBB. Originally, it was scheduled for the first quarter of last year. It is one of the most requested features. It has been pushed back again and again. ... This just seems so out of character for them
Let us remember that Logos has a very poor history of predicting when they would complete something and move it into production environment (books, missing features, etc...) I personally do not know of a single date that they originally stated for something and they were able to make the date.
As people who have read my post know that I am not a fan of L4, and one of the reasons that I am not a fan of L4 is the lost of capabilities with notes. I use color, graphics, and photos in my notes, and all of that has been taken away from notes in L4, so I am looking forward to the PBB function coming to L4 so that I can transfer my notes to PBB.
Before they start with PBB, I think it is a good time for them to stop development and do a check to see if what they are doing is working. A step that I believe every business, church, and organization needs to perform every now and then. L4 has been out for over a year now, and it is a much improve program from what first came out last year.
Still, we all know the importance of the first initial response. If the first response is good, GREAT!!!!. If not, it is hard to change a person's perception, and it is hard to expand any product if the initial response left a bad taste in a person's mouth.
Therefore, I would like them to give away 200 copies of L4 to people who have never used Logos before. 50 copies would go to seminary professors. 50 copies would go to seminary students, 50 copies would go to pastors, and the final 50 copies would go to lay leaders within congregations.
This would confirm or deny our feelings about Logos. If it confirms what Logos is doing, GREAT!!!!! If not, it gives them a chance to redirect their heading.
I think this is more important for L4 than PBB's. As much as I would like PBB, I think it is time for them to evaluate L4.
As people who have read my post know that I am not a fan of L4
I am constantly amazed at how, as bad as you think Logos is, you have the "stick-to-itiveness" to hang around the forums. It almost looks like an admission that, though imperfect, you think Logos is still the best Bible software available. [:D]
Therefore, I would like them to give away 200 copies of L4 to people who have never used Logos before.
Studies have shown word-of-mouth is the best advertisement a product can get. If Logos gave away 200 copies of L4, people would not be half as impressed as if you gave those 200 copies, or just 200 word-of-mouth recommendations. I just wonder how you know Logos has not already given away 200 copies. I know they do give some, but they don't blow a trumpet to gain publicity.
I am constantly amazed at how, as bad as you think Logos is, you have the "stick-to-itiveness" to hang around the forums. It almost looks like an admission that, though imperfect, you think Logos is still the best Bible software available.
I have said, and I will say again, L3 is the best Bible software available. Because I have spent $$$,$$$ of $ on resources and who knows how much time saving my data in L3, I have an invested interested in making L4 the best software available.
I have three major complaints for L4, and I will continue to speak on these three issues until they are resolved. These three issues are:
1: Notes. I have over 60 note files that amount to close to 100Meg of data in L3. Because I use tables, colors, and graphics in my note files, my note files in L4 are useless. I need to be able to use my note files in L4.
2: Speed: While L4 has improved in this area, I should not have to wait a second or two close out a window.
3: Security: I simply do not want my data on Logos' (or Amazon's or ....) servers. I want a setting that will allow me to not upload my data to the servers while I can still download updates and new resources. I have several resources in L3 that I do not have in L4 because I cannot download them.
Most, not all, of the complaints with L4 deals with the data people have saved. This is why there is so much angst with L4 and PBBs, with L4 and notes. This is why people are still complaining about loosing their collections when going to L4. This is why someone (and I am likely the only one) who is still upset that our workspaces are not imported into L4. (I have close to 200 workspaces that I cannot use in L4). I believe that Logos needs to understand that the most important aspect of any software is what the user enters into it, not the number of resources/tools that they provide.
NOTE: I do not buy Bob's line when it comes to workspaces and collections. They should have created a conversion tool to bring this uses created data into L4.
Studies have shown word-of-mouth is the best advertisement a product can get
Very true, but I am not talking about advertisement. I am talking about the direction of the product.
Every business, every church, every nonprofit, every organization needs to re-evaluate what they are doing. Everyone one of us who read and post in this forum is bias about the product (and for the most of us, we really really really like the product).
Therefore, Logos needs some feedback from people that have not used their program before, and ask the seminary professors and seminary students to use L4 to do an exegetical report, to ask pastors to use L4 to create a sermon, to ask lay leaders to use L4 to lead a Bible study. Then ask them, what did they like about L4 and what did they did not like about L4.
Once Logos has this data, to find the common themes so that they can improve L4.
I do not believe that Logos should do this simply because of my major three pet peeves with L4. They should do this simply because L4 has been in production for a year now, and it is time to evaluate the product.
Every business, every church, every nonprofit, every organization needs to re-evaluate what they are doing.
Sounds like the review step of every strategic planning process that I have been apart of.
Every business, every church, every nonprofit, every organization needs to re-evaluate what they are doing. Sounds like the review step of every strategic planning process that I have been apart of.
It looks like Logos is doing this (as it relates to why women do not use their program at lest) [:D]
I am not familiar with "Bob's line when it comes to workspaces and collections." Has he taken a stand against importing Libronix data into L4?
Very true, but I am not talking about advertisement. I am talking about the direction of the product. Every business, every church, every nonprofit, every organization needs to re-evaluate what they are doing.
Unless God has called you to be the clarion for a new socialistic economy, and thus also supplied you with the grace to accomplish the mission, I am afraid you are taking on a mission that is humanly unachievable. Generally, the present economic system works reasonably well; Businesses that produce sub-standard products and services eventually fail. If a helicopter company asked me to review their product I would have to report to them "It is hard to take off, fly, hover, and land. It always crashes when I fly it." But my father-in-law flew helicopters and could probably give the company a more honest, informed review. A review by a real pilot who really flies is worth more than a hundred reviews from non-pilots. And you did just say:
(and for the most of us, we really really really like the product).
that would be real-life helicopter pilots , um, Logos software users. [8-|] 100x more valuable than non-users............
Has he taken a stand against importing Libronix data into L4?
Here is a link to Bob's statement concerning workspaces: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/3435.aspx#26315
Here is a link about collections (note: When Bob corrected a person's post, he did not correct the statement: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3384/26185.aspx#25881
Very true, but I am not talking about advertisement. I am talking about the direction of the product. Every business, every church, every nonprofit, every organization needs to re-evaluate what they are doing. Unless God has called you to be the clarion for a new socialistic economy, and thus also supplied you with the grace to accomplish the mission, I am afraid you are taking on a mission that is humanly unachievable. Generally, the present economic system works reasonably well; Businesses that produce sub-standard products and services eventually fail.
Unless God has called you to be the clarion for a new socialistic economy, and thus also supplied you with the grace to accomplish the mission, I am afraid you are taking on a mission that is humanly unachievable. Generally, the present economic system works reasonably well; Businesses that produce sub-standard products and services eventually fail.
As Peter was saying above, this is called strategic planning. It doesn't matter how good a product is, if a business (or anyone else) is not involved with strategic planning, sooner or later they will be out of business. For an example, if IBM still only made typewriters and adding machines, they would be out of business.
For your helicopter example, this image just does not get off the ground (just could not pass this pun up).
I am not talking about people who do not use computers to give feedback on L4. I am saying get feedback from people who know more about computer than just turning it on and who study scripture regularly.
To use your helicopter image, your father-in-law would be able to provide an informed review because he flew helicopters AND he would be looking at the helicopter with fresh eyes. A helicopter pilot from the company who made the helicopter would not be able to provide the honest and informed review because she/he would be already use to its "peculiar" features.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the fact that Logos is asking the question "What are we missing?" when it comes to women users. The problem that I see with their current visible approach is that they are asking the wrong people. They need to ask women who are in ministry who do not use Logos why they do not use it.
