Why less women?
Comments
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Matthew C Jones said:
You are probably aware of Bob Pritchett's liberal application of the EULA for spousal and minor children's usage. The kicker seems to be the personal settings, workspaces, , and notes can be overwritten. I would love a flat user access rider that would permit my dependents living with me to access my 3600 volume library without losing settings. I don't know how that would be implemented in Windows 7.
This would be workable if I could also "hide" different books for different users. Giving my wife access to all 2500+ books in my library would overwhelm her - hey, there are some days that it overwhelms me. Giving her access to three or four English Bibles with which she is familiar and a couple of commentaries oriented to the layman/laywoman would be the right place for her to begin. Other sets or books could be added later. Once on LOGOS, there may even be books that I would not want, but she would want to purchase. But until she is on LOGOS, there will likely be no purchases based on her interests.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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I would like to see a family license. Bob's question is why women don't seem to be using the program. I suppose it is quite easy to ask why children age 18 and younger are not using the program as well. While I don't have the statistics, I doubt there are many who purchase the program for children. Way too expensive and not sure if the children would actually use or benefit from the cost of purchasing. How about a homeschooling license? How about getting creative to get more users to eventually purchase a copy or purchase books to add to their own library. Why not have a family license that will give all family members equal rights to the program...and then children can use it until they are 18 and at that time, they could purchase the program for a small fee to make it their own program which as they grow, they can add book to if they so wished.
Bob spoke about the problem when Husband is pastor of one church and wife is pastor of another church...how realistic is this problem? I am sure it is possible, but not for the majority of spouses who could benefit if the program was owned by both spouses and not just one. What if husband is pastor and wife is women's Bible study coordinator. Why cannot they have a family license so they can have separate notes, setttings etc on their own computers?
L4 is a great program. But if you have 5 boys in the family and one girl, and you want all of them to develop spiritually as they grow (instead of developing worldly), and you can see that L4 can be a great help...but there is only a limited amount they can do as the license does not allow for multiple users in the family to have their own settings, Bible reading chart, etc. But if they grow up with L4, then perhaps they will see it as indispensable in their lives.
Again, I ask, why not have a family license for two and a limited license for the children who must eventually when they turn adults, pay a discounted rate to purchase their own separate license?
These thoughts are not meant to hijack the thread. Why don't more women use the program? Lots have already offered possible answers. My contribution to the question is to suggest that the licensing policy hinders wives of pastors, teachers, church workers to really use the program for all it is worth. I know there are women who are church workers etc who use the program. But I am quite sure there are many using the program to for professional purposes. And their spouse is not in the so called profession and thus a family cannot justify the cost and trouble of having them use L4.
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Floyd Johnson said:
This would be workable if I could also "hide" different books for different users.
The current method of hiding books is horribly impractical anyway. Selecting them individually, and removing them one by one? Hopeless when you want to hide 100 or more.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Eric Weiss said:
Patriarchal hierarchalism (aka so-called "complementarianiasm") has put women in the back of the bus (if they're even allowed on the bus to begin with)
You are assuming everybody wants to get on that bus. I know many men & women that don't desire any position of leadership. They are quite happy to serve without notoriety.
Eric Weiss said:Let more women teach and preach and help pastor the flocks (without having to be under some male leader's bogus "covering")
I have seen churches where nobody conducted themselves as if they were under any authority. (The book of Judges gives an account of how poorly Israel fared under anarchy.) I wonder how many pastors will recommend all the men in their church throw off the leader's bogus "covering". The hostility rivals Psalm 2:1-3 . I hope I am misunderstanding this.
Eric Weiss said:why would they want to invest thousand$ of dollar$ in what will be of little use for them outside their homes?
Because if all children heard godly instruction from their parents, we would have little need for most youth ministries, reform schools and rehabilitation programs. We know we will never have every home operating under God's perfect will so men and women everywhere must study to prepare themselves. If only the leaders know the word of God, how will the congregation know when they have been lied to? (And they have been lied to by some preachers, male & female!)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Mark said:
I ask, why not have a family license for two and a limited license for the children
I would like that as well. As for me, I have thought of creating a "layout" for my children to use. It would show the books they are reading and maybe have a notefile named for them. they are just getting to the age where they could use it.
My wife doesn't. She avoids it like the plague. Seems too complicated and overwhelming for her to even look into (and this is a woman who was tops in her class and aced anatomy, biology, etc etc.
MARKKKKKKKKKKKK: more importantly, please tell me what your avatar is? That looks like a really cool picture. Anywhere I could see the full thing?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Eric Weiss said:
Let more women teach and preach and help pastor the flocks (without having to be under some male leader's bogus "covering") and you will see how much the Body of Christ has missed by telling women they can't do these things.
One more thought, the United States of America already tried revival without men during Charles Finney's time. The result was a society where the women and children worshiped in the churches and the men worshiped in the taverns and brothels. We need women in the church. We need every member of the body including our authorities above us and our charges below.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Jonathan Burke said:
There's a great big world outside the mainstream evangelical US. In fact there's a great big world outside the US (which includes the vast majority of people on the planet). I would be hesitant to characterize the broader Christian community like this. There are plenty of denominations in which women have contributed significantly for decades.
I've followed the North American comp-egal wars for around four years now (there's nothing remotely similar in Australia, where I come from, and the situation in the UK, Europe, China, Korea, and Taiwan where I live now is pretty much the same as in Australia, so seeing the war in the US is almost like watching a sci-fi movie about an alien planet), and I don't believe that this can account for why only 7% of Logos clients are women.
So the rest of the world isn't caught up in the provincialism of American Evangelicalism? That's good to know! I'd heard that the strident YEC-ism and other peculiarities of American Evangelicalism are also not issues in other countries.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Eric Weiss said:
So the rest of the world isn't caught up in the provincialism of American Evangelicalism? That's good to know! I'd heard that the strident YEC-ism and other peculiarities of American Evangelicalism are also not issues in other countries.
Correct. The situation is very different elsewhere. The idea of YEC-ism taking a hold in somewhere like Australia is unthinkable. There are YEC groups in Australia, but they are utterly marginal, and typically imported from the US. I don't know a single First World country where YEC groups are as large a proportion of the Christian population as they are in the US. Nor does anyone take them seriously in places like Australia. Female clergy can be found in many mainstream Protestant churches in Australia. I knew one chapel which only had female clergy (I've seen the same here in Taiwan, where women clergy are common).
But the entire religious situation in Australia is very different anyway. The mainstream Christian population tends to be Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, and Presbyterian, and those groups have long made peace with issues such as an old earth, and even evolution. Australia currently has its second self-declared atheist prime minister (we've had a couple of other atheist prime minsters in the past, but they weren't so outspoken about it), who is also a woman, and who is in a de facto relationship with her partner after multiple previous partners. Somehow I can't see that happening in the US just yet.
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All right dudes, let me back the following up with power by saying: I am NOT employed by Logos, I am RIGHT NOW trying to do a sermon on Revelation, MY PARENTS are upstairs visiting from 10 hours away, and I think it stinks that Qatar is hosting the WC in 2022. That said, hear me carefully:
this is descending into a touchy theological discussion that is not conducive to the Logos forum policies or medium. But if you think you can convert each other in 2 replies or less, have at it.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
tell me what your avatar is?
I think I got it from Office 2007. You can find a bigger picture on my website http://www.believershome.com/html/christian_brethren.html and a bigger picture in the pdf file "The pilgrim;s plough I" on the website.
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Mark said:Dan DeVilder said:
tell me what your avatar is?
I think I got it from Office 2007. You can find a bigger picture on my website http://www.believershome.com/html/christian_brethren.html and a bigger picture in the pdf file "The pilgrim;s plough I" on the website.
didn't know it was there. I like it.
Interesting bio. Tried to figure out how to email you. Couldn't. Have been pondering an MA in TESOL. Wondering about it career wise (not secondary ed, more adult classes)
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
Tried to figure out how to email you.
If you sign the guest book at believershome, I can email you back. I you dont want your signed guestbook on the website, I will get your email sent to me and then I can delete your post without it ever showing in the guest book. If that makes sense, that is the way to get an email to me. Then I can email you back and we will have a connection. For privacy reasons, I would rather do it this way.
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Dan DeVilder said:
My wife doesn't. She avoids it like the plague. Seems too complicated and overwhelming for her to even look into (and this is a woman who was tops in her class and aced anatomy, biology, etc etc.
Same here. My wife is a nurse, artistic and an artist. Creates slides, does powerpoint presentations etc. Also can program and repair computers.
Her opinion of both Libronix 3 and Logos 4 has NOTHING to do with the wide variety of resources (and yes she had her own subscription and copy etc which she finally scrubbed from the computer)
Quote: "totally non-intuitive"
And as she "has a life" and is not a "geek" she has NO time for Videos or "Morris" etc.
As for Biblia.com, don't even ask...you don't want to go there...
Oh well
Regards, SteveF
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tom collinge said:
I hope that we do not hear the same sexist statements made here like what is being posted on Facebook.
This is a very valid question that I believe only women can answer.
I find those comments very very sexist.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
SteveF said:
Quote: "totally non-intuitive"
My wife feels the same way. She's perfectly competent with computers, and uses Adobe Premiere, which I won't even go near. But Logos doesn't seem to make sense to her. She could learn it, if she took the time, but she finds it a lot quicker to ask me to get something done for her whenever she needs it. [:)]
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It's interesting that we seem to be going against the trend. I am the Logos user in our family while my husband prefers paper based books and Bibles for studying.
Blessings to all
Sue
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Jonathan Burke said:
but she finds it a lot quicker to ask me to get something done for her whenever she needs it.
lol, hilarious! [:)] I can relate!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Sue McIntyre said:
I am the Logos user in our family while my husband prefers paper
well GOOD FOR YOU, Sue!!! [:D]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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SteveF said:
Quote: "totally non-intuitive"
Unfortunately, I wouldn't even be that kind. I'd call it totally counter-intuitive. At least for someone like me who's always been on Mac. I don't know what it's like if you're used to the Windows way of doing things.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Dan DeVilder said:Jonathan Burke said:
but she finds it a lot quicker to ask me to get something done for her whenever she needs it.
lol, hilarious!
I can relate!
Sounds familiar. [H]
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fgh said:SteveF said:
Quote: "totally non-intuitive"
Unfortunately, I wouldn't even be that kind. I'd call it totally counter-intuitive. At least for someone like me who's always been on Mac. I don't know what it's like if you're used to the Windows way of doing things.
I do not believe it is a windows/mac thing. I have said more than once, "I do not know what this is telling me." I have read some Logos power users postings say, "it is unusual behavior" and "It is not intuitive at all." How many times has it been said that Logos has a huge learning curve?
All of the ladies that I know who are ordained and use computer software with their study use Bible Works. Why is this? Is it the cost? Is it the UI? The next time I see one of them I am going to ask because I am now curious.
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could have been what was used in their seminary
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Maybe we are all being a little myopic. Truth be known, there are probably as many different types of women users/non-users as there are men. To announce a single reason why some women don't use Logos is like Mattell marketing the mathematically challenged Barbie doll.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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My wife and I are both in seminary (actually I just finished my last class). When there is a required book I am disappointed if it isn't available in LOGOS. My wife will order a hard copy, even if we already own it in LOGOS. [:(]
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tom collinge said:
All of the ladies that I know who are ordained and use computer software with their study use Bible Works.
It would be interesting to see the actual stats for users of other Bible software programs. Most of the Bible Works users I know are men, but where I went to seminary the platform that gets pushed most is Accordance.
My personal feeling is that Logos is the best of the lot in terms of breadth and depth of resources offered, but having started with Libronix/L3, I know my wife didn't like the usability of it. She does use my Logos 4 more now, and likes it a lot more. She still asks me a lot of questions about how to use it, but then again she hasn't fiddled around with the program nearly as much as I have.
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fgh said:
Unfortunately, I wouldn't even be that kind. I'd call it totally counter-intuitive. At least for someone like me who's always been on Mac. I don't know what it's like if you're used to the Windows way of doing things.
I actually find Logos 4 highly intuitive. When I want to do something, it usually turns out that the way I think it can be done is the way it can be done.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Dan DeVilder said:
this is descending into a touchy theological discussion that is not conducive to the Logos forum policies or medium
Or perhaps, ascending into a touchy theological discussion?
Bill Coley
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As long as this thread doesn't descend into Hawkeye mutual appreciation, I thoroughly approve [:D]
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SteveF said:
And as she "has a life" and is not a "geek"
Huh? Geeks have lives. [8-|] I have been known to sit in bed with my laptop for days on end. Now if that isn't the "life of Reily" I don't know what would be.
Did you know Logos can read you to sleep?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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If the goal of the question is to receive an answer that will boost sales to women, you have to look at the reason why a person may or may not purchase Logos Bible software.
Since the gift of pastor-teacher is for men only and the majority of the market for Logos is in the realm of pastors and others who teach the word, this should answer your question. You would need to change God's design and purpose of men and women in the Church in order to increase sales to women OR, simply go to the local, secularized, so called Christian bookstore, look around at the titles that women buy, and put more of that material on Logos, with pretty colors and what not which appeal more to women than men.
If you want to argue that perhaps women are allowed to be pastors too, then that is on you and you likely are more of the post-modernistic persuasion where the only absolute is that there are not absolutes.
Let's not sugar coat this stuff.
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As I understand it the restriction is on elders only. The gift of pastor is not restricted by sex or age in the N.T. We do not have a common model of ruling elders in the modern church and confuse the two. The N.T. is quite clear that Holy Spirit is poured out on all, including His gifts.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
Wiki Table of Contents
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Matthew C Jones said:SteveF said:
And as she "has a life" and is not a "geek"
Huh? Geeks have lives.
I have been known to sit in bed with my laptop for days on end. Now if that isn't the "life of Reily" I don't know what would be.
Did you know Logos can read you to sleep?
I like your "style" Matthew! [:)]
Regards, SteveF
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"If the goal of the question is to receive an answer that will boost sales to women, you have to look at the reason why a person may or may not purchase Logos Bible software. Since the gift of pastor-teacher is for men only and the majority of the market for Logos is in the realm of pastors and others who teach the word, this should answer your question. You would need to change God's design and purpose of men and women in the Church in order to increase sales to women OR, simply go to the local, secularized, so called Christian bookstore, look around at the titles that women buy, and put more of that material on Logos, with pretty colors and what not which appeal more to women than men. If you want to argue that perhaps women are allowed to be pastors too, then that is on you and you likely are more of the post-modernistic persuasion where the only absolute is that there are not absolutes. Let's not sugar coat this stuff."
As I suggested earlier this is not a deep issue if one considers the programs primary target audience and primary distrubution channel.
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Pat Flanakin said:
If the goal of the question is to receive an answer that will boost sales to women, you have to look at the reason why a person may or may not purchase Logos Bible software.
Since the gift of pastor-teacher is for men only and the majority of the market for Logos is in the realm of pastors and others who teach the word, this should answer your question. You would need to change God's design and purpose of men and women in the Church in order to increase sales to women OR, simply go to the local, secularized, so called Christian bookstore, look around at the titles that women buy, and put more of that material on Logos, with pretty colors and what not which appeal more to women than men.
If you want to argue that perhaps women are allowed to be pastors too, then that is on you and you likely are more of the post-modernistic persuasion where the only absolute is that there are not absolutes.
Let's not sugar coat this stuff.
This is a thoroughly frustrating, irritating, and disappointing post. Just when I -- one of those "post-modernistic persuasion" types, I guess, given my convictions about women in pastoral ministry -- experience joy and hope through connecting with the evangelical community with whom I have long-standing theological differences, but growing connections grounded in a shared passion for mission and evangelism, I encounter this kind of rhetorical slap in the faith.
Pat, I respect your faith and your apparent certitude about women in the church. And I refuse to return to you the divisive and imprecise name calling evident in your post. But if you have a gram's worth of concern that the Church be the one church Jesus prayed we would be, you simply must find more sensitive, edifying ways to express yourself. Labels and judgments will never construct the bridge Christians of differing traditions, practices, and theologies must walk across to discover their oneness in Jesus.
I won't sugar coat that, either.
Bill Coley
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OK,
Let's leave the doctrinal issues out of the thread from here on out.
Even though there are defensible arguments for each stand, it is not needed or productive to continue bringing the theological into the thread.
(And, yes, I do know I'm guilty of the same in other threads. So please take this as a humble constructive request.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Let's leave the doctrinal issues out of the thread from here on out.
I have been thinking about this since I first saw this question, and while I agree I keep wondering if there is a way to answer it only form a sociological understanding, without having to cross over into a theological discussion.
Seems like any search for an answer will inevitably open up the proverbial "can of worms", so to speak.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:Matthew C Jones said:
Let's leave the doctrinal issues out of the thread from here on out.
I have been thinking about this since I first saw this question, and while I agree I keep wondering if there is a way to answer it only form a sociological understanding, without having to cross over into a theological discussion.
Seems like any search for an answer will inevitably open up the proverbial "can of worms", so to speak.
Paul, I can appreciate your thought of viewing the issue from a sociological viewpoint particularly because I have often had the thought that Logos users and mainly power users formed a "subculture". If traits or values associated with the subculture we have chosen can be identified, then perhaps that will help direct any efforts to engender the participation of more women in the community.
Does that make sense?
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Joan Korte said:
Paul, I can appreciate your thought of viewing the issue from a sociological viewpoint particularly because I have often had the thought that Logos users and mainly power users formed a "subculture". If traits or values associated with the subculture we have chosen can be identified, then perhaps that will help direct any efforts to engender the participation of more women in the community.
Does that make sense?
Yes, and I worry that when researched closely, that this subculture, one that is inherently driven by a common theology (mostly), may in itself be the reason for the skewed statistics.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Aside from theological reasons, I have a friend who does love Logos but she cannot afford the software. And several friends who because of their lack of instruction in Biblical languages would opt for different software that is organized around Strong's numbers or even choose free Bible software-again a less expensive route. Logos doesn't have resources that would interest them such as more of Beth Moore [:D] and they would prefer buying the books in print. (My mention of friends is all women.)
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Paul Golder said:
Yes, and I worry that when researched closely, that this subculture, one that is inherently driven by a common theology (mostly), may in itself be the reason for the skewed statistics.
Paul and Joan,
I value the recent exchange you two have had. Thank you.
Perhaps another way of making the point is to describe the demography of Logos users as a self-fulfilling prophecy. The community's dominant (but certainly not only) theological motif tends to interpret Scripture as limiting the role of women in ministry. Said motif then drives community resource preferences, which drive Logos.com resource development, the produce of which strengthens the prevailing theological demographic - in effect, to the continuing decline of other views and the presence of those who hold them.
More than half of the pastors graduating from my denomination's seminaries are women, women who would be great Logos users. But the overall theological leanings of Logos resources are very different from the overall leanings of our pastors, particularly our female pastors. It's a hard sell to ask people to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a format whose supporting community, on the whole, holds a viewpoint that is so much different from yours. I know I have on many occasions said no to temptations to upgrade my base package (or to buy into the current Christmas sale bundles) because of the overwhelming presence therein of a theological stream in which I don't swim. I'm not saying that's bad, per se; but it does have consequences.
Logos has a great business model. They do what they do very well. I am glad I own what I own. But the theological/sociological demography of the Logos community, and the resources that demography prompts, have consequences that limit their attractiveness to a broader audience.
Bill
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Bill Coley said:
Perhaps another way of making the point is to describe the demography of Logos users as a self-fulfilling prophecy. The community's dominant (but certainly not only) theological motif tends to interpret Scripture as limiting the role of women in ministry. Said motif then drives community resource preferences, which drive Logos.com resource development, the produce of which strengthens the prevailing theological demographic - in effect, to the continuing decline of other views and the presence of those who hold them.
Hi Bill
The thing I found interesting in this paragraph were the references to "Logos users" and the "community" (by which I take it you mean the participants on this forum). From the stats it looks as though there are about 38,300 participants on the forum and I have seen figures of over 700,000 Logos users.
This may impact how much Logos takes its input for resources solely from this community.
I have no other information about this but just thought it interesting.
Graham
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Graham Criddle said:
The thing I found interesting in this paragraph were the references to "Logos users" and the "community" (by which I take it you mean the participants on this forum). From the stats it looks as though there are about 38,300 participants on "the forum" and I have seen figures of over 700,000 Logos users.
This may impact how much Logos takes its input for resources solely from this community.
Hi, Graham.
Thank you for calling attention to the distinction between Logos users and forum participants. I guess my assumption, though, is that theologically, forum users reflect the broader Logos user base. Perhaps not sociologically. Almost definitely not in passion for the software. But theologically, yes.
As to from which group Logos.com takes its resource development cues, the model seems to be a combination: what sells (via the Logos user base); and the squeaky wheel syndrome (Logos.com and forum users via community pricing and pre-pub offers).
Thanks for the observation.
Bill
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Bill Coley said:
Perhaps another way of making the point...consequences that limit their attractiveness to a broader audience
Do you think that this could be overcome by increasing resource offerings that reflected a broader theological point of view, or would it require a fundamental change in philosophy?
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Nancy, I think the Sony Reader will go the way of Beta vs VHS. They can't even get an iPhone/iPad app developed yet.
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Nancy, I will say that many of the women that are involved in good sound theological churches are also involved in churches that limit what women can do in ministry so thus they do not see a need to further their bible knowledge, that is left for the men. I many times have envied what my wife has learned from teachers such as Beth Moore and yet I have not seen the same type of teaching ministry available to us men in Bible study format. Makes you wonder if we really know what we're doing sometimes.
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don't be envious of beth moore or her teachings...i find them shallow and with her recent move into some questionable beliefs I'd rather read Augustine, Luther, or any of the "Martins" from the reformation or even Pearcey. But, as most of my friends tell me, I'm not a typical woman...I like logic and philosophy. [8-|]
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"Logos has a great business model. They do what they do very well. I am glad I own what I own. But the theological/sociological demography of the Logos community, and the resources that demography prompts, have consequences that limit their attractiveness to a broader audience."
Bingo Bill. If Logos wants me to buy more product then sell me product I can use in my D. Min program..i.e. Tillich for the systematic theological handling of therapy and theology and authors like Suchocki/Cone/Whitehead because they are mainstays of UMC theology. More conservative journals is just that more conservative journals.
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Nancy A. Almodovar said:
don't be envious of beth moore or her teachings...i find them shallow
[Y] Thank You [:)]
Beth is no different than the other prosperity preachers. Prosperity trumps truth. Her own prosperity is paramount. She caters to a multi-denominational audience and waters down her message so as not to step on anyone's toes... thereby boosting ticket sales. If a spoon-fed, empty message is what some gals require, Beth fills that bill. I praise God that some ladies are able to see through the smoke and mirrors, and are willing to do their own studying.
I almost forgot ... [^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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tom collinge said:
All of the ladies that I know who are ordained and use computer software with their study use Bible Works. Why is this? Is it the cost? Is it the UI? The next time I see one of them I am going to ask because I am now curious.
I talked to the five ladies that I know who use biblical software. All five of them are classmates of mine, and all five said they use BW because we used BW in seminary. Two out of the five ladies never heard of Logos. Out of the three ladies who knew about Logos, two of them said it is too expensive/too many Evangelical sources in the packages. Two of the ladies installed L3 that came with a book that they had to purchase for class, and both of them said the software was to complex to figure out how to use.
In a nut shell, they told me the same thing that is being said here in the forum.
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