Why less women?
Comments
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Paul Golder said:
Do you think that this could be overcome by increasing resource offerings that reflected a broader theological point of view, or would it require a fundamental change in philosophy?
Hi, Paul,
Interesting question. I think greater resource variety would help (e.g. establish relationships with more mainline publishing houses such as Cokesbury, Fortress, and Chalice Press). But two additional changes are needed (one of which you might find surprising, coming from me):
1) Logos users both current and potential have to develop an appreciation and use for resources that reflect other points of view. Not to "see what the other side is thinking," or to feel more secure in their own points of view, but to learn something, to expose themselves to and grow to value what are by God’s design necessary and equally valuable-to-the-Kingdom parts of the Body. My preaching professor told us why we needed to value commentaries from "conservative" publishing houses. Today, in something of a witness to that professor's 28 year old encouragement, I am seriously debating whether to purchase the OT encyclopedia set from IVP that's part of the 12 Days of Logos promotion. Pastors and teachers from all parts of the theological sea must see the need to expand their theological journey into as-yet unexplored territory. For liberals, that would be IVP or NICOT or the like. For conservatives that would be...whatever is theologically different and probably uncomfortable. Again, not to judge or diminish those who value those perspectives, but to appreciate and respect them. The result would be more demand for resources of all points of view -- which would lead Logos and other providers to expand their offerings.
2) The other thing that needs to happen is more profound. The Holy Spirit needs to move in the Church to help us demolish the divisions we have established between us. Only the Spirit can convince hardliners from any particular point of view to surrender their dogmatism in a pursuit of God-demanded church unity. Once I lose my attitude about "those people," I am more willing to listen to (and perhaps purchase) the resources they value. The same would be true about me for people whose theology is very different from mine.
I don't know what Logos' role is, since as a business, sacrifice such as I have described here would affect its bottom line, which is often not a sustainable business model.
Hope this helps,
Bill0 -
Bill Coley said:
More than half of the pastors graduating from my denomination's seminaries are women, women who would be great Logos users. But the overall theological leanings of Logos resources are very different from the overall leanings of our pastors, particularly our female pastors
[Y]
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Well, I for one, am thoroughly disappointed with Silent Sam. Up till now, you knew when you saw Silent Sam's moniker, the thread had jumped the tracks of Logos-ism. But here, Silent Sam 'looks' like he's helping push the train off the tracks! Silent Sam?!
(Actually at our church, half the women like Beth and half don't, but both watch because it's good to discuss among fellow Christians).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Nancy A. Almodovar said:
But, as most of my friends tell me, I'm not a typical woman...I like logic and philosophy.
While I respect the critique of Bible teachers like Beth Moore, how I read this post is you saying, "I'm not like other women, I'm smart." I am sure that is not how you mean to sound. From other posts, I understand you have specialized knowledge and are working on your doctorate. This does make you different from other people (note: different from both men and women) in your depth of understanding in theology. While I agree that is great to go back to the Protestant Reformation and other early Christian writings, I also know most people won't because it is inaccessible to them. And Beth Moore is (as well as shallow and questionable). If not Beth Moore, who can we suggest who would have a wider appeal to those 'typical women.'
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Denise Barnhart said:
Silent Sam 'looks' like he's helping push the train off the tracks! Silent Sam?!
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
I'm still warning of a train that has jumped the tracks. ... Specifically, Mz. Moore's ministry. [:P]
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Rene Atchley said:
If Logos wants me to buy more product then sell me product I can use in my D. Min program..i.e. Tillich for the systematic theological handling of therapy and theology and authors like Suchocki/Cone/Whitehead because they are mainstays of UMC theology. More conservative journals is just that more conservative journals.
I hear you, Rene.
I read a blog entry the other day from a currently-powerful conservative political activist. The entry excoriated the UMC for being one of the Devil's weapons against the rest of the world. Dreadful stuff.
I assume that activist considers himself to be a follower of Jesus, but one who has a very different theological understanding of the world than what he perceives as dominant in the UMC. When that activist and people on all sides stop acting on their urges to diminish the "other side" - in fact, when we stop seeing sides, and instead see one Body - we will be free to be the Church Jesus prayed for. And, all parts of the church will see the value of Tillich, Suchocki (I really like her...and I'm not even a Methodist! Is that legal?!), Cone, Whitehead, et al.
Bill
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Which is my question for Nancy, which is why I put the phrase in quotes.
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"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Denise Barnhart said:
Well, I for one, am thoroughly disappointed with Silent Sam. Up till now, you knew when you saw Silent Sam's moniker, the thread had jumped the tracks of Logos-ism. But here, Silent Sam 'looks' like he's helping push the train off the tracks! Silent Sam?!
(Actually at our church, half the women like Beth and half don't, but both watch because it's good to discuss among fellow Christians).
[Y]
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sorry, did not mean it to come across that way...I also LOVE football, my hubby is the football widower...so, yeah, not your typical woman in many ways. While I enjoy mani-pedi's i prefer sitting in starbucks reading with my fourth or fifth cappucino.
I would suggest Dorothy Sayers or, as I mentioned Nancy Pearcey or CJ Mahaney's wife (I forget her first name) for starters, esp. Sayers (as a great playright she is talented but her insight into 20th century christianity is also tops).
nancy
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"typical" would be the norm: women's teas instead of a theological conference.
If, according to Scripture, we are admonished to teach and train our children and teach other women, then why aren't we challenged, or rather why isn't there more focus of challenges on theological topics: doctrine, creeds, confessions, church history, Biblical History?
Typical topics for women's groups?
Learn to be the "Princess" God wants you to be
Gather the seers
What to Wear (honest this was a conference topic)
and my favorite
Feeling Like a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie World
I've attended many women's conferences and sadly, during them I've rarely had to open my Bible (and NOT because they're posting the verses up on the screen but because they're not reading it)
also, I attended two (one by a local gal and one by a well known woman...NOT beth moore) who actually said, "Ok ladies, hold up your bible." we all did, then she added "well you won't need them today so put them under your chair". and this was at a bible conference(s).
Sad.
Again, depth, depth, depth....please logos.
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Hi, Nancy,
A great post!
To what extent do you think the resources Logos offers conspire -- willingly or not -- and as a result perpetuate this spiritual pablum to women?
My theological conviction is that the burden and hope of following Jesus is the same for you and me, though our genders differ. But my observation is that resource developers tend to treat men and women differently - not just in style or presentation, but in content and core focus (see the topics you mentioned). There's nothing biblical about that, and it would seem to contribute to the problem.
Local churches become co-conspirators when their leaders look for, ask for, and refuse to lay down money for anything other than resources that carry the same banner. In the process, entire congregations convert to a pedestrian vision of women and ministry (that last word defined as demanded by your theology allows).
Thoughts?
Bill
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Bill,
Logos, as any business, is driven by profit. I'm not saying this is wrong at all...if they don't make money they cannot pay their programmers and other employees and then we (the consumer) do not have Logos any longer...and that would be so very sad
What Logos can do is help the pastors with their sermons. Instead of topical make them more theological. If women are fed good doctrine (not drab stuff but good solid doctrine which does indeed effect our Christian Life) each week then they are going to want more good food.
If I serve good meat and veggies to my husband then he will be healthy. A smattering of dessert doesn't kill anyone. However, if all I feed him are the hershey chocolate bars he really likes, for dinner every night...then I will kill him. Ergo, good meat and milk of the Word, solid theological topics such as the Sovereignty of God will effect how a person then handles daily stresses.
Take for instance Providence. A Pastor preaches on providence utilizing the resources from Logos and through it the creeds and confessions and catechism and you get this understanding
Providence is the almighty and ever present power of God by which He upholds, as with His hand, heaven and earth and all creatures, and so rules them that leaf and blade, rain and drought, fruitful and lean years, food and drink, health and sickness, prosperity and poverty-all things, in fact, come to us not by chance but from His fatherly hand.
Now, send the women out with that kind of preaching on Sunday and when on Monday their child is sick or the washing machine floods or an unexpected letter arrives with unexpected expenses, or the car breaks down or their friend dies suddenly or their husband is laid off because of a downward economic spiral in the nation, and they will not necessarily have to visit the counselor because their pastor taught them the biblical doctrine of Providence and all these things are in direct control and are the Will of God. Now, think, how their anxieties will be quenched. They won't worry about living in a raggedy ann world or barbie townhouse because they have been fed good food. They won't want the health and weath gospel or the name it claim it spit on it you got it-creature demands from god theories. They will WANT good, solid, nutritious food.
Logos can help further by promoting on their homepage (which probably their husband has open on his desktop) good books by solid, biblical and theologically literate women. While the checkout line has the "Enquirer" version of some psuedo-christian self-help book, they won't want that "impulse purchase" because their husband would have pointed out to them a good book by a good woman.
Afterall, we women have this admonition from the Lord Himself:
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
The Holy Bible : New International Version, electronic ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), Tt 2:3–5.0 -
Nancy A. Almodovar said:
I attended two (one by a local gal and one by a well known woman...NOT beth moore) who actually said, "Ok ladies, hold up your bible." we all did, then she added "well you won't need them today so put them under your chair". and this was at a bible conference(s).
Sad.
I agree, but as you know this isn't just a 'woman's problem.' There is a lot of shallow Bible teaching out there (or lack of Bible teaching). Perhaps, Logos doesn't fall victim to shallow teaching the same way as they market to people who actually want to study the Bible. Maybe the problem Logos has attracting women is simply a marketing thing. I think women would benefit from and enjoy many of the tools Logos has to offer, but Logos still has to cross the gym floor and ask women if they'd like to dance.
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tom collinge said:
I talked to the five ladies that I know who use biblical software. All five of them are classmates of mine, and all five said they use BW because we used BW in seminary. Two out of the five ladies never heard of Logos.
As has already been stated in this thread. we tend to gravitate towards that which we have been fed. Logos is aware of this and reorganized their sales efforts a long time back to focus on the academic sales. There have been seminary scholarships, huge academic discounts for seminaries that require students to purchase Logos, and lately the publishing of Bible school course curriculum. It will take time to introduce the academic community to the new Logos.
As for the non-student, Logos is expanding with Christian literature of more practical applications.
Christian Life Collection (14 vols.)
Nancy Wilson Collection (3 vols.)
Day One Biblical and Theological Studies Collection (24 vols.)
B&H Marriage and Family Collection (19 vols.)
Christian Focus Marriage and Family Collection (7 vols.)
Douglas Wilson Collection (17 vols.)
Moody Counseling Collection (11 vols.)
fwiw: I have not taken anything Nancy has written as being derogatory towards women not pursuing a traditional academic degree. But I do sometimes see an unintended divide between seminarians and the laity. I think if you study the complete catalog of Logos resources (including forth-coming Pre-Pubs and proposed Community Pricing titles) you will see a genuine effort to be inclusive and supportive of both sides, and everyone in-between.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Nancy A. Almodovar said:
If women are fed good doctrine (not drab stuff but good solid doctrine which does indeed effect our Christian Life) each week then they are going to want more good food.
If I serve good meat and veggies to my husband then he will be healthy. A smattering of dessert doesn't kill anyone.
About 20 years ago I attended several "Christian Life Workshops" by homeschooling pioneer Greg Harris in which he taught the importance of "touching the palate" with sound teaching. He made his point with the illustration of a mother feeding her baby with bits of food from the family table. The baby grew familiar with, then fond of the family diet. The same is true of good Bible doctrine. While topical sermons do have their place, nothing can substitute for a firm foundation of doctrine for male & female alike.
Nancy A. Almodovar said:However, if all I feed him are the hershey chocolate bars he really likes, for dinner every night...then I will kill him.
[:|] Somebody, Help! My wife is trying to kill me!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
As has already been stated in this thread. we tend to gravitate towards that which we have been fed. Logos is aware of this and reorganized their sales efforts a long time back to focus on the academic sales. There have been seminary scholarships, huge academic discounts for seminaries that require students to purchase Logos, and lately the publishing of Bible school course curriculum. It will take time to introduce the academic community to the new Logos.
But here is the question, I know three guys (including myself) who looked at Logos, and said cool. All of us (including the women) went to the same seminary. All of us took the same classes. All of us have the same (close to) theological outlook. Why did three out of three guys said yes, and five out of five women said no?
NOTE: I only know for sure eight of us are using biblical software. I would say that I have many classmates who are using biblical software, I just do not know who is and who is not.
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Nancy, I'd just like to say that I think you're making a lot of sense and I'm enjoying your comments. Your experiences reflect mine. I'm happy to be a member of a faith community which has always enjoyed spiritual contributions from women, in which sisters' classes and camps are held regularly on intelligent topics, and girls and women are actively encouraged to do their own Bible study.
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tom collinge said:
But here is the question, I know three guys (including myself) who looked at Logos, and said cool. All of us (including the women) went to the same seminary. All of us took the same classes. All of us have the same (close to) theological outlook. Why did three out of three guys said yes, and five out of five women said no?
I dunno! [:^)] That is the $25,000 question. I would probably be amiss introducing the question of compensation inequities that men and women experience in the workforce, seeing as we are talking about students who usually have little resources regardless of gender.
I don't know if your sample group of just eight students is sufficient for a scientific conclusion.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I think if you study the complete catalog of Logos resources (including forth-coming Pre-Pubs and proposed Community Pricing titles) you will see a genuine effort to be inclusive and supportive of both sides, and everyone in-between.
Hi, Matthew,
Perhaps you're correct, but inclusion and support are in the eye (and theology!) of the beholder.
A local talk show host insists that his favorite news network "plays it pretty much down the middle." That news network is widely known to have clear political leanings; it is the host's own agenda that colors his perception of what's "down the middle" (as I'm sure is the case for talk show hosts on the other end of the spectrum who claim that the other news network known to have clear political leanings plays it down the middle).
Without a doubt, Logos sells resources that appeal to me, an unapologetic liberal, progressive, or whatever. But whenever I review Logos' offerings overall, I am certain my Logos collection would be far larger were I an unapologetic conservative, pentecostal, or whatever.
Logos knows and well serves its core customer base, a fact I honor. But I also know my personal part of the theological sea is not now, and will not soon be, central to Logos' resource development vision.
Bill
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Matthew C Jones said:tom collinge said:
But here is the question, I know three guys (including myself) who looked at Logos, and said cool. All of us (including the women) went to the same seminary. All of us took the same classes. All of us have the same (close to) theological outlook. Why did three out of three guys said yes, and five out of five women said no?
Just to hazard a guess. Logos, marketing campaign focuses on the total retail value of all the resources you get with each package. Nevermind, that included in each of the packages are a number of resources, you probably don't want and will not use. Some of these resources are simplistic and possibly offensive to your theological position but we look at the bottom line and see, look how many books you can get for the money. And then we only ever really look at the ones we find helpful (but feel good that we got a bunch of books we can refer to if we ever need to).
Maybe women are not as impressed by useless books bundled in with each platform. Other Bible software markets itself based on usability (i.e. Accordance) and functionality (Accordance, and Bible Works). I can see how this may appeal to a female market. Yes, there are more resources available in Logos than other platforms, but you know what they say about guys with big libraries, don't you?[+o(]
Lots of books!
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Bill Coley said:
Not to "see what the other side is thinking," or to feel more secure in their own points of view, but to learn something, to expose themselves to and grow to value what are by God’s design necessary and equally valuable-to-the-Kingdom parts of the Body.
Umm. without sounding judgmental here; I do not think it is necessary for Logos to become "ecumenical" to serve the broadest spectrum of Christianity. I think is is perfectly possible to continue offering staunchly Calvinist works, staunchly Catholic works, staunchly Pentecostal works, staunchly Baptist works, Lutheran works (I would say "staunchly" here too, but as Garrison Keillor stated, "Lutherans are very agreeable & quiet people [:)] .)
"Ecumenicalism" is usually achieved by watering down all doctrinal positions that distinctly represent the differing denominations. It is like the one world culture pushed by the United Nations where the beauty of differing cultures is diluted with a cookie stamp mentality. I love reading anthropological writings from circa 1850. Carpenter's travels, Stoddard's Lectures, A Popular Account of the Ancient Egyptians ,and the Travels through Bible Lands Collection are all wonderful accounts of the diversity of the world's peoples. There is no reason Logos can not offer the widest array of perspectives. (Feminist renderings, Orthodox, Fundamentalist............whatever you please.)
If Logos released a base package agreeable to all Bible students it would contain no resources outside of the Bible. I know everyone would have difficulty agreeing on which Bible it should be. In light of 2 Cor. 6:17 , I doubt you could even get all on-board for this "unity." That is not a job a business entity can accomplish. It is only possible for the Spirit of God.Bill Coley said:Only the Spirit can convince hardliners from any particular point of view to surrender their dogmatism in a pursuit of God-demanded church unity.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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To avoid the endless parsing of every possible option on a topic that seems to infest so much of theological discussion (imo) I would suggest that if Logos wants to see to more "women folk" then they need to market to that demographic. If Logos wants more market share (as any good amoral capitalist) then they have to expand their offerings to get new customers. If they want return customers then they need to produce more solid library programs and fewer "cutting edge visionary" products that require a totally new interface every 24 to 30 months...instead of focusing on a new demographic preference in product use. I would suggest that the onus of the demographic and market share issues of women users lies squarely on Logos and their executive decision making each generation of Logos products. However, since much of their competition has such a poor record (pc market at present) in producing useful tools for the moment Logos is one of the couple of options in town and imo they act that way.
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James Matichuk said:
Just to hazard a guess. Logos, marketing campaign focuses on the total retail value of all the resources you get with each package. Nevermind, that included in each of the packages are a number of resources, you probably don't want and will not use. Some of these resources are simplistic and possibly offensive to your theological position but we look at the bottom line and see, look how many books you can get for the money. And then we only ever really look at the ones we find helpful (but feel good that we got a bunch of books we can refer to if we ever need to).
Maybe women are not as impressed by useless books bundled in with each platform. Other Bible software markets itself based on usability (i.e. Accordance) and functionality (Accordance, and Bible Works). I can see how this may appeal to a female market. Yes, there are more resources available in Logos than other platforms, but you know what they say about guys with big libraries, don't you?
I think this goes back to the conversation of a person's theological outlook. I have the original language package, and I will never upgrade. It simply cost too much for what I will use out of the package. I am wondering what package that most non-evangelical people have?
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Rene Atchley said:
To avoid the endless parsing of every possible option on a topic that seems to infest so much of theological discussion (imo) I would suggest that if Logos wants to see to more "women folk" then they need to market to that demographic.
This may be all that it takes. I was in an Apple store a few weeks ago, chatting with one of the salesmen. He was a younger fella, still in college, so I was picking his brain on something that always bothered me. I asked him: "I just don't get it, if you take everything that some say is wrong with Capitalism, and corporate America you have pretty much defined Apple's business practices" He agreed with me, saying that I was pretty much on the mark. I then asked: "So why is it that Apple's largest consumer demographic are those that decry anything to do with Capitalism, and corporate America?" He said: "Jobs could sell ice to Eskimos..."
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Matthew C Jones said:
Umm. without sounding judgmental here
Not an issue. Judgmental is about people, not points. Your entry is about points, not people.
Matthew C Jones said:I do not think it is necessary for Logos to become "ecumenical" to serve the broadest spectrum of Christianity. I think is is perfectly possible to continue offering staunchly Calvinist works, staunchly Catholic works, staunchly Pentecostal works, staunchly Baptist works, Lutheran works
Such an array of resources - regardless of their staunchlyness (!) - sounds to me like the seeds of ecumenism. In one place, granted similar notice and distribution, are resources reflecting a significant portion of the Church's many manifestations. In some ways, that's ecumenical.
Even better, though, will be the time when followers of Jesus reference resources not by their native traditions (Baptist, Catholic, etc), but by their larger, far more important identification: Christian.
Matthew C Jones said:"Ecumenicalism" is usually achieved by watering down all doctrinal positions that distinctly represent the differing denominations. It is like the one world culture pushed by the United Nations where the beauty of differing cultures is diluted with a cookie stamp mentality.
Ecumenism is not a one world cultural ambition; it's a one Church command from Jesus.
Matthew C Jones said:I
doubt you could even get all on-board for this "unity." That is not a
job a business entity can accomplish. It is only possible for the Spirit
of God.I agree. I think this is exactly the point I tried to make in the post to which you responded. (Though I am intrigued by the question of Logos' role in this matter. Is Logos a business, comparable to any other for-profit enterprise? Or is it a hybrid business/ministry, whose practices are subject to the command of the one to whom its resources point? Obviously that's a call Logos alone makes, but it's interesting to me)
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tom collinge said:
I am wondering what package that most non-evangelical people have?
Hi, Tom,
Interesting question.
I can't speak for any other "non-evangelical people," but I have the Leader's collection to which I have added a few resources (the Anchor/Yale Bible Dictionary, for example). I think it's unlikely that I will upgrade my base package.
Bill
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tom collinge said:
I am wondering what package that most non-evangelical people have?
I'm non-evangelical, and I have Portfolio with several hundred other works.
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Bill Coley said:
Ecumenism is not a one world cultural ambition; it's a one Church command from Jesus.
Just a small point of contention: Jesus only expressed a desire for unity while in prayer, never commanded it.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:
Just a small point of contention: Jesus only expressed a desire for unity while in prayer, never commanded it.
Hi, Paul,
I take your contention to the extent that Jesus never said "I command you to be one." However, I have always granted the force of a command to the pleas of the John 17 prayer. He prayed for our unity; he must have wanted it, as well as our faithful cooperation in creating it. In addition, there are the commands that his followers love and forgive each other, and wash each other's feet.
In criminal prosecutions, that would be called circumstantial evidence of a command to unity.
As you note, it's a small point.
Bill
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Colorful comment - Logos 4 provides some color choices for panel background, but grey for panel borders is neutral, not pretty.
Asked my wife if she likes Logos 4 Mac grey borders => "No" (she would not buy a Bible with a grey cover - not like grey borders)
What color should the borders be ? Red, Blue, Green, Purple, Burgundy, Pink, etc
Wish Logos 4 would add color options for borders and fonts - dreaming of Logos 4 color themes in Program Settings (or add selectable choices for borders and fonts, like panel background).
On iPad, glad Apple provides option to reverse colors - white text on black background nice to read in evening.
In Windows 7, can choose a High Contrast color theme - yellow text on black background very readable, but Logos 4.2a Beta 3 shows yellow text on white background (even with Program Settings for background to use Windows Default).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Jonathan Burke said:tom collinge said:
I am wondering what package that most non-evangelical people have?
I'm non-evangelical, and I have Portfolio with several hundred other works.
I am Evangelical and have original languages package. The original languages package has most of what I wanted in Bible Software (I added some commentaries and language resources) without a lot of extra books I wouldn't want. Admittedly Portfolio has some great resources bundled in but when I parse what I would actually want and use from the rest, it seems like it is cheaper for me to buy a la carte.
Oh, and in honor of the actual forum topic: women are great.
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Asked my wife if she likes Logos 4 Mac grey borders => "No" (she would not buy a Bible with a grey cover - not like grey borders)
What color should the borders be ? Red, Blue, Green, Purple, Burgundy, Pink, etc
Wish Logos 4 would add color options for borders and fonts - dreaming of Logos 4 color themes in Program Settings
[Y] i keep hoping and dreaming myself. I long ago emailed "the Prez" about that, and we have talked about it on the forums, too. Gray was a step up from just white. Hoping for more!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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The things I have heard from my wife concerning the teaching she has received through Beth Moore have not been spoon fed, shallow, prosperity teachings, she has come away with some very rich and thought provoking content. What I am hearing is a desire for a Higher learning, theological discourse on the university level which is not what most people desire nor can handle. Just because a teacher does not teach at that level does not negate their ministry nor the content of the message. Big words nor Latin are necessary to get the message of the cross across to the masses. I think Jesus was a perfect example of this with his teaching by parables. I too like Higher learning but I have seen many learn themselves right out of the faith into liberal theology putting mans wisdom above God's and becoming apostate in the process.
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Dennis Miller said:
I too like Higher learning but I have seen many learn themselves right out of the faith into liberal theology putting mans wisdom above God's and becoming apostate in the process.
Hi, Dennis,
"...learn themselves right out of the faith into liberal theology....." I'm sure you know this, but one obvious implication of your statement is that you believe Christians of liberal theology are not in the faith.
I'm sure you know that, Dennis, just as I'm sure you know there are more constructive, less judgmental ways to express disagreement with fellow followers of Jesus.
That John 17 prayer for unity may not technically be a command, but I am not going to stop treating it like one. I hope you'll join me.
Bill Coley
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Bill Coley said:
That John 17 prayer for unity may not technically be a command, but I am not going to stop treating it like one. I hope you'll join me.
I've been thinking about it, and Bill you are right. It is the high time that the universal Christian Church became unified under conservative Reformed theology. You are more than welcome to join us.
( Please forgive my impertinence, I just couldn't resist [;)] )
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:
It is the high time that the universal Christian Church became unified under conservative Reformed theology. You are more than welcome to join us.
On the contrary, I believe we should all unite as Independent Fundamental Baptists. [8-|] Jesus' prayer was for unity, not for sameness. You seems to have missed that point. The kind of unity most Liberals call for requires the abandonment of core beliefs by conservatives.
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Jack Caviness said:
You seems to have missed that point. The kind of unity most Liberals
call for requires the abandonment of core beliefs by conservatives.I get it Jack, it's one of the fundamental failings of man.
Whether Liberal, Conservative, or anything else in between, when someone says that we must be unified in "fill-in-the-blank", what they are saying is "Everyone should change and believe as I do".
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Matthew C Jones said:
I don't know if your sample group of just eight students is sufficient for a scientific conclusion
I am sure that my sample size and my random selection of people does not fall under good polling methods. [:P]
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tom collinge said:Matthew C Jones said:
I don't know if your sample group of just eight students is sufficient for a scientific conclusion
I am sure that my sample size and my random selection of people does not fall under good polling methods.
Thanks for sharing your "findings". Now I know there are other female Bible works users out there.
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Paul Golder said:
Whether Liberal, Conservative, or anything else in between, when someone says that we must be unified in "fill-in-the-blank", what they are saying is "Everyone should change and believe as I do".
I think this is soooooooo true.
I also think that the ecumenical is so important. It acknowledges are differences, that we do not agree with each other on a variety of topics. Still, what binds us together is greater than our differences.
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Jack Caviness said:
The kind of unity most Liberals call for requires the abandonment of core beliefs by conservatives.
Hi, Jack,
The kind of unity this liberal calls for requires only that conservatives AND liberals abandon judgmental spirits against fellow followers of Jesus with whom they disagree.
You get to decide what your "core beliefs" are; but you don't get to decide for me what my core beliefs should be. You can teach, assert, and proclaim all you want -- and I might be persuaded by what you say. But your efforts will fall on deaf ears if they rooted in a judgmental spirit, if the target of your responses is me rather than the core beliefs you're convinced I need to share with you.
Christian unity is not at all about sameness; it's about oneness in Christ being more important than difference in beliefs. I can almost guarantee you that I don't agree with your theology on one or more of your core beliefs. I can almost guarantee you that we strongly disagree on some of those beliefs. But I still see you as a fellow follower of Jesus, a person who believes Jesus is Lord, and that both you and I are part of his Body at work in the world today.
I'm glad you're part of the Church. I honor and celebrate your faith and your passion for Jesus. I don't feel a need to change you or cast aspersions on you. I don't think you're going to hell because you disagree with me. I know I could learn a lot from you. I wish our respective "factions" worked as hard at affirming and understanding each other as they do at judging each other. I think there is so much more conservative and liberal churches should be doing together in the name of Jesus.
Do you make the same statements about me and the pastors and traditions very different from you and yours? If you do, we have found unity in the midst of our difference. If you can't, then it's back to John 17.
Bill
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tom collinge said:
Still, what binds us together is greater than our differences.
So, ... We should just accept others Right to be Wrong? ... Kumbaya?
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Paul Golder said:
It is the high time that the universal Christian Church became unified under conservative Reformed theology. You are more than welcome to join us.
Paul,
I thought you'd never ask! What time do Reformed folks serve donuts? [:)]
Bill
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I will leave it up to all of you to personally decide what "truth" is--and preferrably refrain from openly discussing it on these forums for which such discussions are not designed nor "allowed" per Logos' request, however, here is the spirit that upholds both uncompromising truth and a gentle spirit toward those in error:
25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,q 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil,r who has taken them captive to do his will.
The Holy Bible : Today's New International Version. (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2005), 2 Ti 2:25–26.Yeah, ironic I quote from the TNIV. [A]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Bill Coley said:Paul Golder said:
It is the high time that the universal Christian Church became unified under conservative Reformed theology. You are more than welcome to join us.
Paul,
I thought you'd never ask! What time do Reformed folks serve donuts?
Bill
The donuts are reserved for the elect only. Those with holes in their theology get, well, . . . . the holes. [:P]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Vb9SLkq5k:550:0]
said:
