Why less women?
Comments
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The longer this thread grows the more apparent it becomes that economics plays an important role on the availability of Logos.
Most students have very limited resources regardless of gender. But many women are still unable to purchase Logos well after leaving school because of economic disparity in the workforce or home structure. Pastors are still predominantly male and even then do not always have a "book allowance" or compensation high enough to afford Logos.
If there were any way possible to cut all pricing 50% across the board I would be confident Logos would expand the user base 10-fold and bring in more women users, students, lay-preachers and stay-at-home-moms than they can imagine. I think a move like that would help users in developing nations where the annual income is a fraction of "our" expendable income.
edit: But that can't work because of the hundreds (thousands?) of users who are still using the payment plan for their base package acquisitions. [:(]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
But that can't work because of the hundreds (thousands?) of users who are still using the payment plan for their base package acquisitions.
There is always forgiveness! [8-|]
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Matthew C Jones said:
The longer this thread grows the more apparent it becomes that economics plays an important role on the availability of Logos.
Most students have very limited resources regardless of gender. But many women are still unable to purchase Logos well after leaving school because of economic disparity in the workforce or home structure. Pastors are still predominantly male and even then do not always have a "book allowance" or compensation high enough to afford Logos.
If there were any way possible to cut all pricing 50% across the board I would be confident Logos would expand the user base 10-fold and bring in more women users, students, lay-preachers and stay-at-home-moms than they can imagine. I think a move like that would help users in developing nations where the annual income is a fraction of "our" expendable income.
This is one post of yours I have no problem agreeing with. [:D]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I have read all of the opinions posted. And they are just that--opinions. I think that Logos needs to do some real research to find out why women don't use Logos. I am a rabid user of Logos and I am a woman. I am a lay person so my time is limited. I would love to have a paid position that affords me the time to study the Word. But my time is limited by my other committments. I think that you would find that other women would have the same problem. How many of the male uses of Logos have positions that afford them time to study the Word as part of their work time? They are members of a university system or are pastors and part of their work responsibility is to prepare lectures or sermons from the Word. This observation is not criticism--just pure observation.
I lead a Precept Bible study class and spend approximately 20 hours a week pouring over the Scriptures. All of this time is because I have carved it out of my week of other responsibilites. That would be the case for most other lay persons--whether female or male. It is just that in this situation, Logos users are mostly male because pastors are mostly male.
One suggestion that I have as I have tried to market Logos to my class members is that you try to make it more affordable to women who are not working. They hear the price and shut down immediately. In fact, I never tell them the price but when they go to the web site and see it--they call me and are in sticker shock.
Please know that these observations are cursory at best. More indepth research needs to be done. There are numerous BSF and Precept Bible studies all over the US being done and research of women could easily be done either by computer or hard copy. However, some of the comments that you received seemed demeaning of women. I know many women who would love to have Logos but the entry level is too expensive for them. So, if you asked them, I think that you'd learn that they'd buy if they could get in at a less expensive level. (Especially those in Precept, who would love to have dictionaries and a few commentaries.) I might be wrong but when I have tried to sell it to them, they have gone home and looked it up, only to be discouraged by the price.
Thanks for listening. Donna Allen
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Hi Donna, and welcome to the forum. And a definitely GOOD point. I'm not brave enough to recommend Logos to other women in my group, instead going for the affordable choices.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Donna W. Allen said:
I know many women who would love to have Logos but the entry level is too expensive for them. So, if you asked them, I think that you'd learn that they'd buy if they could get in at a less expensive level. (Especially those in Precept, who would love to have dictionaries and a few commentaries.) I might be wrong but when I have tried to sell it to them, they have gone home and looked it up, only to be discouraged by the price.
Hi Donna,
you should definitely share this page with them: http://wiki.logos.com/Free_Logos_Books
The logos engine is free and the free book resources available will allow everyone to work with it in a nice way. The minimal crossgrade (69 USD) will contain some valuable resources for those that want to spend only a little money. Also, as a lay person myself, I found that the nice look of Logos 4, together with very limited amount of menu items etc. and especially the user forum & wiki here provide for a steep learning curve, i.e. more value of the time that one has to take out of "free time" or other commitments.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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Donna: We need some help. From what you said you are an ‘expert’ in both Logos and Precept Bible Study.
What is need for recourses for the Precept Bible Study?
That is what platform level of Logos has the minimum of what is needed for that study?
That is what recourses would need to be added to the Christian Home platform to make it ideal for that study?
By name: what commentary set(s) is(are) needed? It only has Strong’s for a lexicon. And does not have the NIV.
At $150 is the Christian Home platform still too expensive for most of your students? (Even without the needed additions)
Next level, Bible Study, is $265 but adds the NIV, more commentaries and one more lexicon set.
Elsewhere it has been hinted at that if Logos cost half of what it does it would get four times as many sales. Without taking a poll, if Bible Study platform was reduced to the current cost of Christian home how many of your students would buy?0 -
I'd like to weigh in on this as well. I received my first LOGOS software after leading my first Precepts course - and it was the Bible Essentials package. Since then I've added on as needed and upgraded ... BUT - the Word Study Tools on that CD have been "essential" in my personal and "preparing to teach" study
The specific resources are:
1. Complete Word Study OT and NT
2. Complete Word Study Dictionary OT and NT
Also, the Sentence Diagramming tool is PERFECT for Precept students - especially those who have taken their Structuring course and like to study that way.
Adding the NIV would be great - but consider including the "Compare Versions" tool.
Precepts offers a training course in Word Studies - and they use Wuests's Word Studies and Vine's. Vine's isn't too expensive as an add-on ... but the Wuest library definitely is (at least in my opinion) - and the only "cost effective" way to get it is to upgrade to Scholars - again, very pricey for a stay-at-home mom - but a very valuable tool.
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There are two successes I have had with introducing Bible study software to friends--most will try the free Bible software (which I will not name) but will not use it consistently to study so I don't try to sell them on Logos. Our pastor uses Logos scholar's editionand only because it was a gift. Most of the commentaries she would use our church cannot afford to buy for her but she loves Logos nevertheless.
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Dianne Thornton said:
I received my first LOGOS software after leading my first Precepts course - and it was the Bible Essentials package.
Donna: the package Dianne listed is advertised in Bible Study Magazine and often at half price - comes with Logos 3 engine and runs on WIN 7 [Has KJV and NASB and all that Dianne listed as 1 & 2 [wuest and vine are not included] - now is at revision 2.1]
[Note to forum guardians: Bible Study Magazine is a LOGOS product - LOGOS wants its advertisers to make money - I assume it is OK to refer to that ad for AMG Publishing?]
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Of course - "Bible Essentials" can be upgraded to LOGOS 4. Here is the "total list" of what's included ... (and the corresponding base package that some of the resources are currently included in) ... It really is a great "starter package" ... and it's also a really great value.
Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament -- add-on
Complete Word Study Dictionary: Old Testament -- add-on
Complete Word Study Concordance: Old Testament
New American Standard Bible text with text notes (95 Update) -- All
Scripture Reference Index to Dictionary
Greek New Testament (Nestle-Aland 27th edition) -- Original Languages and Up
4,000 Bible Illustrations
Christ in the Old Testament -- add-on
Men & Women of the Old Testament (by C. H. Spurgeon)
Men & Women of the New Testament (by C. H. Spurgeon)
New Testament Sermon Starters Books 1-4 (by Spiros Zodhiates) -- Silver and Up
Commentary by Dr. Spiros Zodhiates on the Book of James
Sermons for All Seasons by Alexander Maclaren
Strong's Dictionaries of Old & New Testament words
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NewbieMick said:
The logos engine is free and the free book resources available will allow everyone to work with it in a nice way. The minimal crossgrade (69 USD) will contain some valuable resources for those that want to spend only a little money.
Unfortunately, I think the minimal crossgrade is only available for people who have a base package already. What it does is converts that base package to the minimal equivalent that will run with most of the Logos 4 features that require a base package, without having to upgrade to the next level up. So I don't think you can just get the free engine and a few free books and the crossgrade. You wouldn't have access to all the popular reverse interlinears (KJV, NRSV, NIV, etc.) that way, because the Bible texts for them all come only with a base package. The only free Bibles available are a couple of foreign translations (Finnish, Russian) and the Lexham English Bible produced by Logos. So Lexham would be the only reverse interlinear available if one bought the minimal crossgrade.
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I apologize. I mis-spoke ... I wasn't referring to an "upgrade" ... or a "crossgrade" ... but the LOGOS 4 Engine ... available here ...
http://www.logos.com/support/faq
"Q: How can I get the free download of the core Logos 4 engine?
A: We strongly recommend not choosing the free engine because much of what makes Logos 4 shine, like our databases, new media resources and reverse interlinears, is included in our base packages and base package upgrades. If you're looking for a less expensive route to get the core Logos 4 data and resources, consider purchasing the Minimal Crossgrade.
The free download of the Windows version of the core Logos 4 engine is available fromhttp://downloads.logos.com/LBS4/Installer/Logos4Setup.exe. A free download of the latest version of the core Logos 4 Mac engine is available from http://downloads.logos.com/LBS4/LBS4MacInstaller/Logos4Mac.dmg.
Note: The free downloads do not support viewing your resources through the Logos iPhone app. Visitwww.logos.com/4ways to view all your options for getting Logos 4."
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Dianne Thornton said:
I apologize. I mis-spoke ... I wasn't referring to an "upgrade" ... or a "crossgrade"
I don't think you misspoke. I was responding to NewbieMick's post, as he had suggested the Minimal Crossgrade.
But yes, the free engine is available to get started, however as I pointed out the only bible one would have access to with that would be the Lexham English Bible, which might not be everyone's first choice. It's perfectly fine, though, done as an in-house translation by Logos. However it has New Testament only, so far.
Dianne, I don't think the "Bible Essentials" package is available from Logos anymore. I think $150 for some software when there are free products out there
that do mostly the same thing sounds like a lot to most laypeople. I have long felt that Logos needed a cheaper entry level package than Christian Home Library. It should cost on the order of $60 to $70. Here's what I'd put in it:- King James Version
- New King James Version
- New International Version
- English Standard Version
- New Revised Standard Version
- New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update
- Bible Knowledge Commentary
- Commentary on the Bible, by Matthew Henry
- The IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament [unbundle this!!]
- The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament
- College Press NIV Commentary: New Testament Introduction
- College Press NIV Commentary: Old Testament Introduction
- New Bible Dictionary
- another solid Bible dictionary from the $25-$30 range (e.g., Holman Bible Dictionary)
- Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
- New Nave’s Topical Bible
- How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth
- How to Read the Bible Book by Book
- Handbook for Bible Study
- Logos Deluxe Map Set
- Logos Digital Hymnal
- Imitation of Christ
- My Utmost for His Highest
- Great Doctrines of the Bible (3 Vols.)
- Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon
- The Complete Word Study Dictionary: Old Testament
- The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament
- Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
- Bible Characters (6 vols.)
- Church History in Plain Language (or one of: Exploring Church History [Vos]; Exploring Church History [Eckman])
- The Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land
- Illustrated Manners and Customs of the Bible (or Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Manners and Customs)
Of course these all come from different publishers and most of them are not public domain, so it ain't gonna happen for that price. But I can always dream on so I can introduce my friends to Logos. So far, nobody I've mentioned it to has been interested, but if the price were right, maybe...
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Rosie Perera said:
I have long felt that Logos needed a cheaper entry level package than Christian Home Library. It should cost on the order of $60 to $70. Here's what I'd put in it:
Whereas I would make sure that all the translations that are specified for use with lectionaries be included, lean more towards the study Bibles, omit the word study books and add a bit of history of biblical interpretation.[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:
I have long felt that Logos needed a cheaper entry level package than Christian Home Library. It should cost on the order of $60 to $70. Here's what I'd put in it:
Whereas I would make sure that all the translations that are specified for use with lectionaries be included, lean more towards the study Bibles, omit the word study books and add a bit of history of biblical interpretation.
Yes, those would be good tweaks which I wouldn't object to.
I thought lectionaries could be used with any Bible version. Even the Catholic lectionary (at least the version in Logos) doesn't specify a version to be used. The starter library should indeed include a good version that would be appropriate for Catholic and Orthodox users, though. I wasn't sure which one of the ones in Christian Home Library would be appropriate, just that I knew they needed to have the apocrypha included. Perhaps New American Bible? I mistakenly thought the NRSV had the apocrypha because I have a print copy of the NRSV that has it (but it's the Oxford Annotated NRSV which was made specifically to be an ecumenical edition -- Logos should get that, BTW!!)
And yes, a good study bible or a couple of them, would be useful. NET Bible notes, ESV Study Bible notes. Is there one that Catholics and/or Orthodox would embrace?
Do you have a suggestion for a book on history of biblical interpretation that is general (not specific to one time period or book of the bible), entry-level/accessible, and not very expensive? Even if it's something not (yet) in Logos. I think it would be a great idea to have something like this in a basic starter set.
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Rosie Perera said:
I mistakenly thought the NRSV had the apocrypha
Hi Rosie
The NRSV in Logos has apocryphal books
Graham
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Rosie Perera said:
I was responding to NewbieMick's post, as he had suggested the Minimal Crossgrade.
But yes, the free engine is available to get started, however as I pointed out the only bible one would have access to with that would be the Lexham English Bible, which might not be everyone's first choice. It's perfectly fine, though, done as an in-house translation by Logos. However it has New Testament only, so far.
Rosie,
I don' want to speak up against you with all your experience and helpful contributions in the forum, but Dianne cited exactly the support FAQ page, which says
[quote]Q: How can I get the free download of the core Logos 4 engine?
A: We strongly recommend not choosing the free engine because much of what makes Logos 4 shine, like our databases, new media resources and reverse interlinears, is included in our base packages and base package upgrades. If you're looking for a less expensive route to get the core Logos 4 data and resources, consider purchasing the Minimal Crossgrade.
That's exactly what I did in february - after I tried the free engine and liked the program so far, I went to http://www.logos.com/minimalcrossgrade and ordered the minimal crossgrade. It has HCSB as the (in my opinion) most valuable bible included, along with others. It has reverse Interlinears ("real" interlinears are quite another story), it has Strong's and TSK - what people may have seen elsewhere and thus can compare - among other reference works and all the colourful biblical places, people, maps, timelines that will provide eye-candy as well as support for bible study. A very valuable resource - the FAQ says, this will get the you the core Logos data and resources. It doesn't say you need to have an L3 base package before, and it doesn't require one.
When someone owns an ESV bible which includes the promise of electronic resources, he/she can download an ESV bible and other crossway resources for free. This was what I did, too (please refer to the wiki page http://wiki.logos.com/Free_Logos_Books). I also took the Nelson free eStudy bible (which is for L3, but the resources work for L4).
I don't think we are far apart here. I paid $70 for the minimal crossgrade and got a lot of the things on your list - that's what sold me to Logos.
Be blessed
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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Graham Criddle said:Rosie Perera said:
I mistakenly thought the NRSV had the apocrypha
Hi Rosie
The NRSV in Logos has apocryphal books
Graham
Doh! I knew that! When I was writing up my last post, I just tried jumping to Enoch and didn't find it in the index, so I assumed there were no apocryphal books. Shows you how well I know my Apocrypha. (Not!) Well, there is a book of Enoch. It's just not in the Western canon.
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NewbieMick said:
I don' want to speak up against you with all
your experience and helpful contributions in the forum, but
Dianne...No worries. I make plenty of mistakes here, and
anyone, newbie or otherwise, is free to point them out if they have
access to better information. I've never personally tried the crossgrade
since my path to my current Logos 4 installation (Portfolio +) was
different, so you have better info than I do on that.As for my reply to Dianne, I confess I'm not really sure what she was trying to say (which came out sounding like a contradiction) or which of her previous posts she was aiming to correct, I just didn't want her to feel she needed to apologize for anything, that's all. In any event, everything that needs to be communicated about the free core engine and the minimal crossgrade (which are different things) has been said at least once by you or me or her. So I think we're done there.
NewbieMick said:That's exactly what I did in february -
after I tried the free engine and liked the program so far, I went to http://www.logos.com/minimalcrossgrade and ordered the minimal crossgrade.I see, I was mistaken. I was unaware that you could order the minimum
crossgrade if you didn't have an older base package. (I think I had read that misunderstanding into the name of it; "crossgrade" seems like you have to be transitioning across to L4 from something.) Well, that's good
news. Thanks for clearing that up!NewbieMick said:When someone owns an ESV bible which
includes the promise of electronic resources, he/she can download an ESV
bible and other crossway resources for free.Oh yes, right. I'd forgotten about that.
So you've shown that someone can get a pretty decent experience of what Logos can do with the minimal crossgrade. I still maintain that it would be good if a couple more basic study research tools (Bible dictionary, commentary, and a resource on bible backgrounds) were available in an entry level package. I was assuming (without saying it) in my suggestion for a possible entry level base package, that it would include all the features and databases that are in the minimal crossgrade, since those are in all the base packages. So if there were a new lower-level base package, it might end up having to cost more than the minimal crossgrade. But there's a lot of room between $70 and $150 for another price point. Or else beef up the minimal crossgrade ever so slightly and keep it the same price or within a couple of dollars of that.
Anyway, this is all useless speculation, since Logos isn't looking to introduce a new lower level base package, so they probably won't.
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Rosie Perera said:
Even the Catholic lectionary (at least the version in Logos) doesn't specify a version to be used
That's because in the US it is NAB, in Canada it is NRSV, in England it is JB, somewhere it the RSV ... not to mention that the children's lectionary is yet another version.[:D] The Orthodox tend to use the AV but are in the process of creating their own liturgical translation. Some lectionaries do give you free rein or it is your particular church hierarchy that limits the options.
To my annoyance, several translations in Logos that have version that include the apocrypha do not include it in the Logos resource. Examples: RSV, The Way,
NLT, GNT, TEV, ESVRosie Perera said:Do you have a suggestion for a book on history of biblical interpretation that is general (not specific to one time period or book of the bible), entry-level/accessible, and not very expensive?
A Short History of the Interpretation of the Bible by David Tracy and Robert McQueen Grant OR Use and Abuse of the Bible: A Brief History of Biblical Interpretation by Henry Wansborough come to mind.
Rosie Perera said:Is there one that Catholics and/or Orthodox would embrace?
The Lutheran Study Bible, the Renovare Study Bible, or the Access Study Bible all would be useful across a wide breadth of denominations. I think they would be more effective than the specific Catholic and Orthodox Study Bibles currently available.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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At my request, I received Logos for Christmas (2010). I use it primarily for two things: preparing to lead Precept classes (lots of tools used), and to do daily devotionals. I would SO love it if there were a way to get a book from my Logos library onto an ereader. There are many, many books in my Logos library I want to read, but I cannot sit for hours at my laptop to do it. I do not have an iPhone (I use a Palm Pixi). If there is anyway you can come up with an app for non-Apple users, or a way to transfer to a Nook or Kindle I would be thrilled!
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Hi Lisa - and welcome to the forums.
Work is going on to produce an Android version similar to that on the iPad/Phone - no dates for its availability.
People have worked out how to transfer documents to the KIndle - see http://community.logos.com/forums/p/31898/237294.aspx for an example thread where this is discussed.
Graham
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Are the numbers still so low?
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Brandy, welcome to the forums. Are what numbers still so low? Just glancing through the thread I was sure what you meant.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I believe the subject should read, "Why fewer women?"
[:P]
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Lisa Miller said:
At my request, I received Logos for Christmas (2010). I use it primarily for two things: preparing to lead Precept classes (lots of tools used), and to do daily devotionals. I would SO love it if there were a way to get a book from my Logos library onto an ereader. There are many, many books in my Logos library I want to read, but I cannot sit for hours at my laptop to do it. I do not have an iPhone (I use a Palm Pixi). If there is anyway you can come up with an app for non-Apple users, or a way to transfer to a Nook or Kindle I would be thrilled!
Lisa, You can read your logos books using Vryso and some of them at biblia.com I believe.
"I read dead people..."
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Thanks
Are the female users still around the 7% mark and are they still looking for insight?
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Brandy Machowski said:
Thanks
Are the female users still around the 7% mark and are they still looking for insight? Only Logos can tell you the percentage but I am sure many of us are interested in more insight. My wife and I had an enlightening conversation about Bible software when this thread first started. I learned she is different in one more way I didn't know about. I am guessing she is a lot closer to the Precept ministry type of student.
Please share anything that comes to mind. [Y][:D]
fyi: My wife and I are both happier to have our own Logos libraries. I recommend it if one spouse likes streamlined libraries.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
fyi: My wife and I are both happier to have our own Logos libraries. I recommend it if one spouse likes streamlined libraries.
Having separate Logos libraries also allows other settings and preferences (e.g. Top Bible) to be different.
Looking forward to be able to share highlighting and notes.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Good Morning!
Normally, I do not reply to posts, but this one caught my eye. Your question has lead to a great deal of debate. However, I am not sure if you actually received an answer to your question. I hope my reply helps you.
I came to know Logos a few years ago when I entered Bible School to obtain my credentials as a minister. I am part of a fellowship who values the role of the woman in ministry and understands the biblical basis for women in ministry that does not conflict with Scripture. (Please do not misunderstand, I am not attempting to open the women in ministry debate. This is a "rib" issue. As long as we can agree that God is first and foremost and He has saved us,that is all that matters to me.) The program was offered at an academic discount and since other programs did not seem to meet the needs of the program I was enrolled in, I ended up purchasing Logos. It is a decision I have not regreted. I have a strong love for reading, and while I do actually read books within the Logos platform, it is for its myriad of other features that I find Logos a valuable asset in my life. Each time I use my Logos software, I learn something new. And this one thing I know, the more I learn about Logos, the more I find to learn and keep me interested for years to come.
Saying that, IMHO, I do not think the core issue is male or female, whether or not someone is a reader, or any theological significance. People (male or female, greek or jew, etc...) will only use something if it holds value and purpose for them. If not, there is no use for that product or service.
For those of you out there (male or female) who are wondering if Logos is the right product for you, ask yourself what your needs are. Although Logos is great for basic Bible study, your study habits may or may not be enhanced by using Logos. It is up to the individual user to decide if a certain product is right for them. Also, IMHO, I am not sure that it is necessary if marketing to male vs. female demographics is necessary. If a potential user sees a value and use for a product, they will purchase it, take time to learn the features that are relevant to them, and actually use the product.
Also, do not let cost dissuade you. Yes, there are more budget friendly Bible software packages out there on the market. If you see value and a personal long term use for Logos (whether male or female), then do not fear making the investment. You will find that in the end it is worth it.
I hope my humble opinion helps to answer your question. I further hope that I have not offended anyone in the way I answered it.
In peace, love and the blessings of our Savior,
Jackie Smith
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