Cloud Fears

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205053#Comment_205053

So far there is no indication that Logos has any thoughts of moving off the PC.

Fred Chapman

I could see a future subscription style service being offered; but I cannot imagine them ever taking away the option to purchase and store a library on your PC

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205108#Comment_205108

Or your Mac....sorry Jack and Allen[;)]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205109#Comment_205109

Or your Mac....sorry Jack and Allen

You beat me to this [:D]. But I understand the language. It is somewhat like using man to mean human being, either male of female. [8-|]

Aaron Baldridge

I agree. I don't see Logos going to a cloud system for that very reason. It is a great system when it works but it is far too vulnerable and internet connections are not always dependable either. Our DSL was out for two weeks a couple of months ago at the church. I would have been in a world of hurt if all my logos materials were online only.

Aaron

BillS

The more our data is on servers in the cloud, the more vulnerable we are... See this PC World Article Logos is a hybrid in that our data is already synced to the cloud.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205053#Comment_205053

So far there is no indication that Logos has any thoughts of moving off the PC.

On June 4, Bob wrote following:

[quote]So I see a future in which consumer applications (like Logos Bible Software) are, by definition, cloud applications. For example, Gmail is a consumer email client, Google's attempts to sell it to business not-withstanding. Nobody complains that Gmail runs on Google's servers. It's a cloud service. Even the availability of a desktop client wouldn't cause the world to clamor for Gmail that stored all its data on your hard drive. Nobody is surprised when your email messages are archived on Google's server. That's what cloud apps do, so you can access them from other machines, have online backup, etc.

Logos was a desktop only app, and it's moving towards being a cloud app. It isn't there yet, and may be a hybrid for a long time, or even forever. So I understand that this change is catching some people off guard, and upsetting others. Not everyone will even agree that it's a good idea. I've had the same experience with other apps myself. (Family Tree Maker used to be something I had a purely offline experience with. Now Ancestry.com is the new "cloud" solution they're pushing towards. Weird change at first, but now I appreciate it.)

See: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/17936.aspx

Will it happen? I don't know, but certainly Bob has had thoughts.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205416#Comment_205416

Will it happen? I don't know, but certainly Bob has had thoughts.

My bad ... I misremembered and didn't check

Ralph A. Abernethy III

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205464#Comment_205464

St. Luke 9:34:

As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205648#Comment_205648

St. Luke 9:34:

As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

Beautiful analogy Ralph. [H] And many remain fearful as they enter the cloud.

Robert Mullen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205416#Comment_205416

So I see a future in which consumer applications (like Logos Bible Software) are, by definition, cloud applications. For example, Gmail is a consumer email client, Google's attempts to sell it to business not-withstanding. Nobody complains that Gmail runs on Google's servers.

This was marginally true at the time it was posted but is less true today and is growing increasingly less true as time passes. I have no real paranoia about having my information in the cloud and am not a real "privacy" person but there is an issue of trust that Google is seeing erode. As people find out the specifics of the personal search and consumption patterns stored and used for statistics and algorithm tuning they are increasingly growing weary. Facebook is facing the same fallout. Now, there is a fundamental difference in the business models that is VERY important: Google and Facebook do not "charge" for their services but the fee you pay for the right to use mail and social media is your historical usage data, your circle of association (friends, colleagues, family), and your eyes as advertising is presented in sometimes subtle and sometimes invisible ways. Now, Logos charges for their fine product so the cloud is a whole different ball of wax. In a pay product the cloud should only be about convenience and availability and not about cross marketing. Do I trust Logos to protect my sensitive information more than Google from a business ethics standpoint? Yes. Do I believe they have the same ability (information and infrastructure security)? No because they do not have the resource base to hire the type of people that Google does. They also are a smaller target which mitigates some but not all of the risk. The whole cloud computing approach is much like everything else in life in that it has layers of complexity and subtle distinctions that aren't apparent without careful thought. I trust Bob and crew are doing this. I imagine his comparison to Gmail was not meant to be stretched too far as an analogy.

I for one like this hybrid approach they have created as it allows me the best part of the cloud in syncing and everywhere availability. I also can opt out completely if I want. Bob, please keep this model and don't drink the cloud kool aid too deeply. I do not share the belief that most future consumer application will be definitively cloud based. I have been around IT long enough to see these trends come and go. Cloud will make some permanent impact on the landscape but much of its hype will die away as the backlash increases and the risks (ala Skype, T-Mobile Sidekick, Navitaire, etc.) become apparent.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205776#Comment_205776

... As people find out the specifics of the personal search and consumption patterns stored and used for statistics and algorithm tuning they are increasingly growing weary. Facebook is facing the same fallout. ...

[Y]

Do I trust Logos to protect my sensitive information more than Google from a business ethics standpoint? Yes. Do I believe they have the same ability (information and infrastructure security)? No because they do not have the resource base to hire the type of people that Google does. They also are a smaller target which mitigates some but not all of the risk.

[Y]

I for one like this hybrid approach they have created as it allows me the best part of the cloud in syncing and everywhere availability. I also can opt out completely if I want. Bob, please keep this model and don't drink the cloud kool aid too deeply.

[Y]

Excellent points, Robert!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205776#Comment_205776

So I see a future in which consumer applications (like Logos Bible Software) are, by definition, cloud applications. For example, Gmail is a consumer email client, Google's attempts to sell it to business not-withstanding. Nobody complains that Gmail runs on Google's servers.

This was marginally true at the time it was posted but is less true today and is growing increasingly less true as time passes.

I, admittedly, do not follow the technology as closely as I used to, but I am not sure I am seeing much difference since June 2010, when Bob posted this. I hope that you are correct, but cannot be as certain as you seem to be.

I also do not have the paranoia that other have spoken of - but that does not mean each do not have a responsibility to keep informed.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205648#Comment_205648

St. Luke 9:34:

As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

My version for Logos Bible Software:

As they implemented these things he was perturbed and took his computer to find another application.

Abi Gail

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205648#Comment_205648

St. Luke 9:34:

As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

The Sky Is Falling !!! ... The Sky Is Falling !!! [:^)]

Robert Mullen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205806#Comment_205806

I, admittedly, do not follow the technology as closely as I used to, but I am not sure I am seeing much difference since June 2010, when Bob posted this. I hope that you are correct, but cannot be as certain as you seem to be.

In the last two weeks I have read articles on major media outlets about the privacy concerns with reference to Google search engine reach and Facebook data collection as well. I am in IT so maybe I am more exposed to this but these are not minor outlets.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/web/12/24/ex.google.employees/index.html?hpt=Sbin

http://blogs.wsj.com/wtk/

This is a big deal and something that is being touted (scaremongering) as "The end of privacy." Should we care as Christians? I personally don't care too much. My Facebook profile is public and there is nothing there my church family or my secular friends cannot or should not see. If Facebook wants to use it I am fine too as I am a reasonably discerning consumer (except for Pre-Pubs I am afraid.) If I were a Christian in Saudi Arabia I might feel differently though.

None of this is a knock on Logos. I love the App and resources and recommend it heartily to all my friends. I just don't think "The Cloud" is all it is cracked up to be. I am not scared of it though, just a bit skeptical.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205813#Comment_205813

The Sky Is Falling !!! ... The Sky Is Falling !!!

Hopefully not. My problem is that I don't wish to be tied down to always requiring an internet connection. While I am normally connected at all times, I can envision circumstances when I may not be so I don't wish to have it as a necessity to do my work. If they decided they wished to sell resourses and also rent them, I would not object, and rented resources could be "in the cloud" since I may want them for a limited time. Any purchased resource I purchase should be permanently on my computer, and I should have the option to purchase or rent any resource they offer.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205815#Comment_205815

In the last two weeks I have read articles on major media outlets about the privacy concerns with reference to Google search engine reach and Facebook data collection as well. I am in IT so maybe I am more exposed to this but these are not minor outlets.

Since Logos does not sync notes, I can't see privacy concerns as being a subject of real concern.

This is a big deal and something that is being touted (scaremongering) as "The end of privacy." Should we care as Christians? I personally don't care too much. My Facebook profile is public and there is nothing there my church family or my secular friends cannot or should not see. If Facebook wants to use it I am fine too as I am a reasonably discerning consumer (except for Pre-Pubs I am afraid.) If I were a Christian in Saudi Arabia I might feel differently though.

I just had a thought. If someone who was going to be in Saudi Arabia where you can't take a bible into the country, downloading it over the internet might be an alternative. I would suggest taking a pristine computer into the country though.

(‾◡◝)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205776#Comment_205776

I for one like this hybrid approach they have created as it allows me the best part of the cloud in syncing and everywhere availability.

I agree with this analysis of the "hybrid" approach. It seems to work well and combines the best of the PC and the cloud. Logos has thought this out and applied it very well. All well and good.

HOWEVER, I am concerned about the day that Logos operates at a reduced capacity (for whatever reason), or ceases to exist, or is bought out by a less committed company, or Martians arrive and take over the internet, or, worse yet, bureaucrats from the FCC arrive and take over the internet (hmmm ...), or whatever. Then the cloud (hybrid or not) may not be our friend. I can always back up all of my Logos resource and index files (and I do as a matter of hard lessons learned long ago), but if I had to reinstall the application with limited or no internet access, then things could/would get very dicey. I can't help it ... I worry about that gossamer umbilical called the internet.

What I would like to see is the availability of an installation DVD (updated, say, quarterly?) that does NOT require internet access, will fully install the latest L4 application, and will discover and install all of my backed-up resources and indexes. Make it available at cost, by request or on a subscription basis.

Although this has been suggested before, I think this one step would make most if not all of the cloud qualms quiet down ... and it would also make those with download caps a lot happier.

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205824#Comment_205824

(updated, say, quarterly?)

Perhaps made available each time a beta version is fully tested and goes "gold".

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205824#Comment_205824

What I would like to see is the availability of an installation DVD (updated, say, quarterly?) that does NOT require internet access, will fully install the latest L4 application, and will discover and install all of my backed-up resources and indexes. Make it available at cost, by request or on a subscription basis.

This would be a good idea, especially for missionaries, and others who have limited internet access.

It could even be implemented as a Pre-Pub to make sure that there were enough subscriptions to cover production and distribution costs.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205818#Comment_205818

In the last two weeks I have read articles on major media outlets about the privacy concerns with reference to Google search engine reach and Facebook data collection as well. I am in IT so maybe I am more exposed to this but these are not minor outlets.

Since Logos does not sync notes, I can't see privacy concerns as being a subject of real concern.

This is a big deal and something that is being touted (scaremongering) as "The end of privacy." Should we care as Christians? I personally don't care too much. My Facebook profile is public and there is nothing there my church family or my secular friends cannot or should not see. If Facebook wants to use it I am fine too as I am a reasonably discerning consumer (except for Pre-Pubs I am afraid.) If I were a Christian in Saudi Arabia I might feel differently though.

I just had a thought. If someone who was going to be in Saudi Arabia where you can't take a bible into the country, downloading it over the internet might be an alternative. I would suggest taking a pristine computer into the country though.

Well Saudi Arabia like China (not to the extent of China) monitors net usage. If one was frequenting Christian sights while in the country I am not sure how safe an option that might be. But then I have little respect for a country where a foreign boy is raped by citizens and when he complains nothing happens to the rapists but the kid gets jail time for homosexual behaviour.

-dan

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205053#Comment_205053

So far there is no indication that Logos has any thoughts of moving off the PC.

The Mac version begs to differ.

Edit: I see I'm late to this joke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205818#Comment_205818

Since Logos does not sync notes, I can't see privacy concerns as being a subject of real concern.

Are you sure, George? I was under the impression that notes (and prayer lists) do sync. This is not a problem to me, since I do not use notes. Maybe somebody can confirm "yes" or "no".

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205839#Comment_205839

Notes and prayer lists, along with pretty much everything else, do sync.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205818#Comment_205818

If someone who was going to be in Saudi Arabia where you can't take a bible into the country

Can I take my Bible into Saudi Arabia?

Yes, you are generally allowed to bring your Bible or other religious items
with you as long as they are not intended to be used to try to convert Muslims.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205868#Comment_205868

If someone who was going to be in Saudi Arabia where you can't take a bible into the country

Can I take my Bible into Saudi Arabia?
Yes, you are generally allowed to bring your Bible or other religious items with you as long as they are not intended to be used to try to convert Muslims.

Not to doubt your word on that, but I had been informed otherwise. Could you therefore supply some kind of documentation or at least a personal anecdote regarding that? Someone has their information wrong.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205872#Comment_205872

Could you therefore supply some kind of documentation or at least a personal anecdote regarding that? Someone has their information wrong.

Because the University of Washington Medical School has a branch in Jeddah or thereabouts and because of 3 friends with relationships to Saudi Arabia, I knew it was either untrue or not enforced. So I simply grabbed the quote from the first website that popped up in the search Bible Saudi Arabia http://www.lesliecorp.com/faqs.html Can't tell you anything about the site other than it corresponded to experience.

Abi Gail

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205839#Comment_205839

Since Logos does not sync notes, I can't see privacy concerns as being a subject of real concern.

Are you sure, George? I was under the impression that notes (and prayer lists) do sync. This is not a problem to me, since I do not use notes. Maybe somebody can confirm "yes" or "no".

Type in notes or prayer list...watch the sync arrows spin. Then go to a second computer and see those entries displayed. Seems to me, They Sync.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205877#Comment_205877

it corresponded to experience

And yet your very own State Department warns that even Christmas decorations (!) might be confiscated:

"Saudi customs authorities enforce strict regulations concerning importation into Saudi Arabia of such banned items as alcohol products, weapons, and any item that is held to be contrary to the tenets of Islam, such as pork products and pornography. Imported and domestic audiovisual media and reading matter are censored.

Saudi customs and postal officials broadly define what is contrary to Islam and therefore prohibited. Christmas decorations, fashion magazines, and "suggestive" videos may be confiscated and the owner subject to penalties and fines."

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205959#Comment_205959

it corresponded to experience

And yet your very own State Department warns that even Christmas decorations (!) might be confiscated:

"Saudi customs authorities enforce strict regulations concerning importation into Saudi Arabia of such banned items as alcohol products, weapons, and any item that is held to be contrary to the tenets of Islam, such as pork products and pornography. Imported and domestic audiovisual media and reading matter are censored.

Saudi customs and postal officials broadly define what is contrary to Islam and therefore prohibited. Christmas decorations, fashion magazines, and "suggestive" videos may be confiscated and the owner subject to penalties and fines."

Such statements are precisely why I was (am?) of the opinion that bibles, etc are prohibited in Saudi Arabia. I was trying to avoid the incessant drone of Christmas carols when I caught a talk show host's program in which he was telling how they were unable to take such items including tree decorations into Saudi so they manufactured their own and put them on some kind of plant. (Don't think that I dislike Christmas carols since I like them very much -- I only like them for perhaps a week before Christmas)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205960#Comment_205960

Reading summaries of Saudi customs regulation, I see that many Christmas decorations might fall into the prohibition against human or animal figures. The Saudi Trade Commission has wording very similar to the State Department. Nonetheless, the number of site that say Bibles and/or rosaries, (prayer ropes, etc.) for personal use are permitted, leaves me still believing the experience of my friends.

It may be that much like prison, there is enough leeway that the customs officer, what sort of a day he's having and your attitude determines what gets confiscated. There are credible news stories of Bible not being permitted in individual cases, there is slightly less credible but plausible news stories of a limit of one Bible per person.

If only our Bibles' hadn't been "corrupted", The Saudi's would have to embrace them as scripture. [:)]

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205872#Comment_205872

If someone who was going to be in Saudi Arabia where you can't take a bible into the country

Yes, you are generally allowed to bring your Bible or other religious items with you as long as they are not intended to be used to try to convert Muslims.

Not to doubt your word on that, but I had been informed otherwise. Could you therefore supply some kind of documentation or at least a personal anecdote regarding that? Someone has their information wrong.

I believe it was in Gulf War I, I read about the troops from the US based there, and was a bit offended they were not allowed to wear a cross, but I know they were allowed to keep their crosses and Bibles just out of any public view (now the soldiers might have been a one time exception). I do believe the concept of evangelization is the main concern for all muslims. I do understand it fully, in the middle ages, the muslims were ravaged by european crusaders, forced to convert and then often killed them to ensure the didn't backslide.

Originally Islam was very tolerant of people of the book (Jews or Christians) as long as they didn't proselytize, they were to be left alone to worship God in their own way somewhat similar to the way most Christians leave Jews to worship God, though we feel a fuller revelation of god through the Messiah , Who was Jesus.

-dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205977#Comment_205977

I believe it was in Gulf War I, I read about the troops from the US based there, and was a bit offended they were not allowed to wear a cross, but I know they were allowed to keep their crosses and Bibles just out of any public view (now the soldiers might have been a one time exception). I do believe the concept of evangelization is the main concern for all muslims. I do understand it fully, in the middle ages, the muslims were ravaged by european crusaders, forced to convert and then often killed them to ensure the didn't backslide.

I don't think the Muslims have any cause for complaint. They came out of Saudi, ravaged Christian Egypt (Origen, Cyril, Athenasius) and northern Africa (where Cyprian, Tertullian andAugustine had lived), overthrew the Christian Byzantine Empire, conquered Spain, invaded the Balkans and were knocking at the door of Vienna. The Crusades were simply a response to Muslim agression. All in the name of a false god and a false prophet.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205978#Comment_205978

The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in
the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died is an excellent and balanced introduction both to what Islam did and didn't do. Like most human behavior there are high points and low points.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/205981#Comment_205981

The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died is an excellent and balanced introduction both to what Islam did and didn't do. Like most human behavior there are high points and low points.

Amazon doesn't seem to have this though I do find it in the used market.

http://tinyurl.com/24tm4h9