I GIVE UP
Comments
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Phil Mills said:
Windows users were used to thick manuals. Mac Users were used to software that you started up and just used.
That may have been true in 1984 when I first began to use Macs, but it is no longer true for any application with more than minimal capabilities.
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Jack Caviness said:
optimization should begin very soon
There was never a more true statement about L4Mac. I don't think you meant it as I do however.
I read a thread by a programmer elsewhere (too lazy to look for it) that said that in his/her programming experience optimization should be done at the same time as feature development. That developing the features and then optimizing later was a sign of poor coding practices. Not a programmer so I'm not sure if this is the norm and an exceptin with Logos or vice versa, but it makes sense to me.
It sounds like the way I write articles. Get the words down and then go back and edit/polish in other drafts. Works in writing but then I never release my articles until I and my editor think they are finished. But it sounds like programmers, at least at Logos, released the rough draft (the web site says Logos 4 for Mac Now Shipping) and does not say in "beta" which is the software version of a rough draft. Sounds a little disingenuous to me and the term beta should then be reapplied on the front page if it is the case that they have not yet released an optimized version. I realize it will not be perfect so that is not what I mean.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:
I read a thread by a programmer elsewhere (too lazy to look for it) that said that in his/her programming experience optimization should be done at the same time as feature development.
Except in this case L4M didn't start as a pure Windows app, or a pure Mac app, and on top of that it incorporated a 'third party' layer to run .NET applications in OS X and then further on top of all that there were pressures to get Mac version out once Windows version was out with all the issues that sort of thing engenders.
Not an ideal situation for the developers.
Anyway all this is past history — Logos has said they hear, then we are in situation where the last three points in my previous posting kick in.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Patrick S. said:
personally I don't really like the denigrating tone of some of the marketing material of that company
I agree. Enough said, Jack, hush.
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Does anyone know the limitations of the money-back guarantee?
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Michael Davis said:
Does anyone know the limitations of the money-back guarantee?
Recommend calling Logos - phone number and hours (with local time) on home web page => http://www.logos.com/
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Michael Davis said:
Does anyone know the limitations of the money-back guarantee?
If you didn't pay for it, you can't get money back for it. For anything more than that, you really will need to just call customer support and see what they say about your situation.
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Thanks guys. I'm just curious because of Bob's statement in this forum. He said, "We also offer (and always have) an unconditional money-back guarantee." That sounds pretty much like I can get my money back even if I have had the program for years.
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Per the website: "Our grace period is 30 days. So make the purchase today, "break the seal," and find out for yourself if what we have been saying about Logos 4 is true. If you are not convinced Logos is for you, let us know within 30 days of your purchase"
Looks like 30 days.
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Michael Davis said:
Thanks guys. I'm just curious because of Bob's statement in this forum. He said, "We also offer (and always have) an unconditional money-back guarantee." That sounds pretty much like I can get my money back even if I have had the program for years.
Generally it is a 30 day thing, I know i have seen that somewhere...beyond that if there are exceptional circumstances you might get time, but in most cases if it has taken you years to realize you don't like Logos something seems wrong in so many ways. There have been a few mac users who have claimed they have been mislead. I personally do not feel mislead in any respect (other than the dropping of the PPC support but it was bound to happen one day I wish it had been in logos 5 but it was 4), the software is not perfect, but they are working on improving it daily.
-Dan
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Robert Pavich said:
I've used both Macs and Win boxes and you may feel that this is the case...but your not correct.
Both platforms have their idiosyncracies... both need to be learned and gotten used to...
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your opinion of who is incorrect is merely your opinion.
Unfortunately, I use Windows on a daily basis and have for years. I am very aware of the differences between the two platforms, but my experience is far different than yours. I am using Windows 7 at my medical office. I would ditch the thing in a heartbeat. Though my hardware is the latest of everything for the network, it is sluggish and expensive. I would say it is a dog, but I don't want to get in trouble for cruelty to animals. Yet I am stuck. I am a Windoze sufferer, my office program is Windows only. I really can't switch.
For years at home I had a Windows computer along side a Mac Computer. I began on the Microsoft side with DOS (updating the computer over the years). Then the Mac came along. I had the Mac-Charlie if you remember that as well as PC-Mac links so I could run both with one keyboard and one screen. Interestingly, the Microsoft side just got used less and less. I then used a PC emulator program. When Parallels became available I purchased that. Then VMfusion.
There were two programs for years that I needed on the PC side. One of the programs was Logos. It had a certain series of books that were available for computer only on Logos. I used Logos, but hated it. To add insult to injury, because of a piracy prevention scheme, Logos would not allow me to run Logos on both my Parallels and my VMfusion software. It had to be one or the other. At that early time, Fusion was better and I went with it. Later Parallels was better but I had already been forced to choose the one platform for Logos. Unfortunately, I was never able to get Logos 4 to install under Fusion. I like the improvement with Logos 4 that allows it to be much more platform portable.
At least Logos 4 for Mac gets me the superior Mac (Unix) operating system. That in itself is a blessing. So I don't have to complain about needing Microsoft for any programs except at my medical office. I can be happy! I have not used VMfusion for months now. There is currently NO program I use which requires Windoze. I am no longer tempted to lose part of the blessing of Bible study because I have to load Microsoft's operating system. Logos is CPU intensive at times. But for my purposes it works.
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Michael Davis said:
Thanks guys. I'm just curious because of Bob's statement in this forum. He said, "We also offer (and always have) an unconditional money-back guarantee." That sounds pretty much like I can get my money back even if I have had the program for years.
I read that same post by Bob and have taken him at his word. In fact, I have several emails into customer service since last Thursday and a phone conversation with accounting asking for an "unconditional" money-back guarantee. Weird thing is that I haven't received any response from customer service yet. Seems odd to me. Based on Bob's personal guarantee, I have already uninstalled Logos4 Mac and invested elsewhere. I am simply waiting for my money back now.
Bob, if you are looking in on this thread, will you please have your customer service folks get back to me tomorrow. That would be much appreciated.
Blessings,
Ray
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John Fidel said:
Per the website: "Our grace period is 30 days. So make the purchase today, "break the seal," and find out for yourself if what we have been saying about Logos 4 is true. If you are not convinced Logos is for you, let us know within 30 days of your purchase"
Looks like 30 days.
Per Bob Pritchett earlier in this thread: "We also offer (and always have) an unconditional money-back guarantee."
Unconditional according to the American Heritage Dictionary is defined as "Without conditions or limitations; absolute:" Based on this, I am looking forward to getting all the money back that I have invested in Logos resources. It's been a very frustrating year and I would have switched long ago had I know I coud get my money back. I was also hesitant to switch because I dread the thought of learning a new Bible software package, but it is so time for me to bid farewell. Not being rude, have stated elsewhere that I am praying for Bob and Logos and will continue to do so.
Blessings.
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Phil Mills said:
At least Logos 4 for Mac gets me the superior Mac (Unix) operating system.
[8-|] I finally found one point I can agree with you on;
The fact Unix is superior to MacOS
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ray D said:
(1.) When I first purchased Logos 4, I had no clue that it had limitations. I never visited the forums until such time that I realized after my purchase there was what i deemed core functionality missing. I have lived in the forums ever since.
Apologies [:$] - after reading some more forum discussions, chose to revisit Logos web site - wondering about user expectations ?
On Logos web page for Logos 4 Mac http://www.logos.com/mac/logos4 get impression Logos 4 Mac should be fast and simple to use (non-intuitive that right mouse button is usable in several drop-down menus).
Passage Guide promises results in seconds for whatever want to study => http://www.logos.com/mac/logos4/customize - studying chapters or books can take bit longer than expectation of few seconds.
Noticed FAQ page http://www.logos.com/support/faq has:
Q: Will Logos 4 run on my computer?
A: Logos 4 was written to take advantage of the latest technology and will run best on a newer computer. If your computer is more than two years old, performance may be sluggish. If your computer is two years old or less, it should run Logos 4 satisfactorily. The exception to this would be Netbooks, many of which don't have sufficient power to handle Logos 4. For more details on what kind of computer you’ll need for Logos 4, see our system requirements.
Q: I thought Logos 4 was supposed to be super fast. Why does it seem to be slower for me?
A: On new computers, Logos 4 performs very nicely. Searching thousands of resources usually takes less than a couple of seconds. On older computers, Logos 4 can be sluggish. We recommend purchasing a computer that meets the system requirements or sticking with Logos 3 until you can.
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Ray D said:(2.) Here is my frustration (no need to respond, you have explained in detail the choices that were made, just wanted you to know), my iMac is only a few months old and has 16G of RAM and 3.2 GHz Core i3. Makes me fairly certain it's the software and not my tired old Mac.
Appreciate Ray's performance frustration: new iMac is less than 2 years old and at least 50 % faster than recommended Mac system, yet appears satisfactorily performance promised on Logos FAQ page.
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On Technical FAQ's page http://www.logos.com/support/techfaq notice PC requires Internet broadband, but not included for Mac. Recommended systems for PC and Mac lack some power hungry attributes (PC bit better with 512 MB DirectX 10 graphics).
Played Logos 4 Mac video on http://www.logos.com/mac - some features shown in video not work like video shows after initial installation - wish page included link to several helpful setup tips for new installations (e.g. prioritizing Library). Video also promises search of thousands of books in less than a second (wish page had a footnote with power hungry machine specifications used to achieve sub-second response).
Looking at www.logos.com notice Wiki not included in top left, yet Forums and Blog have links - also true on support FAQ => http://www.logos.com/support/faq Q. Is there an instruction manual ?
Kudos to Logos for describing many Logos 4 Mac features currently available - wonder about including Video links with screenshots on various product pages ? For example, in Make It Stand Out section, Screenshot and video link would help => http://www.logos.com/mac/logos4/visualize
Personally Thankful for visual highlighting with original language grammar morphology; learned Paul used imperative many times in Phillipians 4.
Matthew C Jones said:The fact Unix is superior to MacOS
Tehcnical observation and learning: Apple includes 200+ open source projects http://www.apple.com/opensource/ in Mac OS X, including UNIX core (based on BSD variant).
Patrick Goldman said:Blessings to you all.
Ray D said:Blessings.
Likewise Blessings [8-|]
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Matthew C Jones said:Phil Mills said:
At least Logos 4 for Mac gets me the superior Mac (Unix) operating system.
I finally found one point I can agree with you on;The fact Unix is superior to MacOS
Ah ha! But Mac OS X is actually a 'better dressed' Unix. [H]
We all know that OS X is actually Unix. Anyway, if one is talking about Unix, then which one is being referred to when one says 'Unix'? Given that OS X is part of the Unix 'family' when using the generic term 'Unix' that can encompass Mac OS X.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
I read a thread by a programmer elsewhere (too lazy to look for it) that said that in his/her programming experience optimization should be done at the same time as feature development. That developing the features and then optimizing later was a sign of poor coding practices. Not a programmer so I'm not sure if this is the norm and an exceptin with Logos or vice versa, but it makes sense to me.
It sounds like the way I write articles. Get the words down and then go back and edit/polish in other drafts.
That programmer might have been me, as I've made similar comments before.
The writing analogy is not quite apt, since you can pretty much change any aspect of a written text afterwards (though if you made a poor decision about a major character's role in the plot of a novel early on, you might have to throw a good deal of the book out and start over).
It's more like architecture. If you realize when you've finished the house that you chose the wrong material for the foundation and now you need to fix it, there's no way you can just "tweak" it -- you really have to tear down the house and start over.
Here's a grossly simplified example: Suppose I need to write a program that will determine the largest number from among a list of N numbers. Suppose I took a stab at implementing it thus: For each item in the list, compare it to each of the preceding items; if it is larger than all of them, keep track of it as the largest number found thus far. Sounds fine at first glance. The problem is, it's a very slow algorithm. It revisits every item in the list multiple times, which is unnecessary (even intuitively you might have sensed that). It's what we in programming-land call an N-squared algorithm. The length of its execution time is roughly proportional to the square of the number of items in the list. I might try to tweak it to make it faster by making each comparison lightning fast. But that doesn't change the fact that the fundamental design of the algorithm is flawed, so I really need to throw the whole thing out and write it over again from scratch. A much better implementation would be thus:
- Set Current_Highest equal to 0
- For each item in the list: if it is greater than Current_Highest, then set Current_Highest equal to this item; then proceed to the next item.
By the time you get to the end of the list, you've found the highest entry. It's simple and fast and elegant. It only has to touch each entry in the list once, so it is of order N (the execution speed is roughly proportional to the number of items in the list).
Now imagine multiplying the complexity of this tiny example to the scale of the entire Logos program, and surely there must be parts of it that were designed with an inefficient algorithm. No amount of tweaking it is going to make it fast enough. That part needs to be rethought and rewritten from the ground up. There might be several parts like this.
Rather than rushing to get the house or program finished quickly, it's better to take the time to think about the proper materials and algorithms before you begin doing things that will be hard to change later.
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Deeper technical observation: Apple produced 9 operating systems that were inferior to Unix before throwing in the towel and adopting the superior design. A design created by people other than Apple programmers.Tehcnical observation and learning: Apple includes 200+ open source projects http://www.apple.com/opensource/ in Mac OS X, including UNIX core (based on BSD variant).
Mac OSX is just a commercialized plagiarism of Berkeley Systems work. Much like Internet Explorer is just Mosaic re-skinned.Patrick S. said:We all know that OS X is actually Unix. Anyway, if one is talking about Unix, then which one is being referred to when one says 'Unix'?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Mac OSX is just a commercialized plagiarism of Berkeley Systems work.
So philosophically we should choose either:
A. All computer OSes, systems and applications in the world are a blatant plagiarism of Grunt and Grok's discovery of binary reality — full cup (1) and empty cup (0).
Neanderthals of the world unite! We like our cave and we're gonna stay here.
or
B. "We see further because we stand on the shoulders of giants".
B. for me, and OS X is better than BSD: [H] not [6]
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Rosie Perera said:
Now imagine multiplying the complexity of this tiny example to the scale of the entire Logos program, and surely there must be parts of it that were designed with an inefficient algorithm. No amount of tweaking it is going to make it fast enough. That part needs to be rethought and rewritten from the ground up. There might be several parts like this.
Thanks for detailed reply Rosie.
Re: your analysis. I sincerely hope and trust that this situation will not include the usage of Mono in L4M. That obviously is not an easily swappable component.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Patrick S. said:
not 
[H] = Microsoft Bob?
Betamax is still superior technology to VHS. And Neanderthals do rule the world. Just ask Marie Antoinette
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
.....
Hmmm curious what are you doing here since you run Logos on.... Windows.... (and you're trying to talk about superior and original technology?!? Please.)
Anyway, not knowing you, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just like to 'play', and I'll wish you a 'God bless you brother'.
End of conversation.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley", everything we use in the personal computer world today was derived from theft and deception. Great Movie. Love the Last exchange between Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, Steve: "We're better than you are", Bill: "You just don't get it Steve, It doesn't matter".
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Phil Mills said:
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your opinion of who is incorrect is merely your opinion.
Phil,
What I was laboring to point out was the exact same thing. You put your opinion/experience out there as if it was a pronouncement....a "given" when it was nothing more than your opinion...not a fact.
If you had said "In my experience, I have never seen a piece of windows software that worked as well as Mac does..." then that would have been different...but you didn't phrase it like that...
And hence, we have your "mere" opinion...and my "mere" opinion. No biggie....you like chocolate I like vanilla...but statements like "Vanilla is obviously far superior to chocolate!" are just plain dumb.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Rosie Perera said:
Rather than rushing to get the house or program finished quickly, it's better to take the time to think about the proper materials and algorithms before you begin doing things that will be hard to change later.
I too have said something similar. The more time that is spent up front in the design phase; the cost of producing the product decreases, and the speed of producing a stable and usable product also decreases.
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Bob, I do not believe that your analogy between L4 and the automotive industry has any traction. I simply believe that if an automotive company produced and shipped an automobile in the same shape as L4 was shipped, the automobile would have been recalled.
Bob Pritchett said:In the forums (and on our blog) you'll find long, detailed explanations of why we chose to release Logos 4 (for both Windows and Mac) when we did. You'll also find, on our web site and everywhere we discussed the products, clear and detailed explanations of the deficiencies of each release and our plans for when we'd fix them.
While I do not have a mac, my pc was only a year old when L4 for windows came out, and it has a very difficult time running L4 (but it has gotten better over the year).
Here are some my thoughts and questions that I believe needs to be pondered. NOTE: I do not have any answers. I hope these questions will make the brain juices at Logos start to flow and make L4 a better product.
Because you only have one change to make a first impression:
- It is Logos job to control the user's first impression, and it is Logos' job to ensure that their users' anticipated first impression matches what their actual first impression. Therefore, do people really know the condition of L4 when they are purchasing it? Yes, Logos has stated in your blog and on your website. Still, is that enough? Will most users read all of Logos' blog entries until they read the one about L4 for Mac? How easy is it for uses to find the page that states that L4....
- What type of pc's and mac's do most of your users and potential users currently have? Do most of them have a computer that not just meet L4 requirements, but can they run L4? Why does it take a powerful program just to display a drop-down menu or type something into the command box?
- If a person's first impression is a bad impression, what are the chances of the person coming back to Logos?
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Must I leave now? Should I wait to be escorted out?
Phil Mills said:You are new to Macs. That is why you don't understand long-term Mac Users' expectations.
If we are going to lop off all the branches that have been grafted into the Mac vine, we get back to just the orthodox old timers who have never used any other platform (people like Jack.) That would exclude both you and me. So let's drop the sectarian intolerance.Patrick S. said:Hmmm curious what are you doing here since you run Logos on.... Windows.... (and you're trying to talk about superior and original technology?!? Please.)
Patrick S. said:I've used over the years CP/M, DOS, Windows, Unix, Linux (command line and desktop) and Mac.
I'm an old guy like you. And like you, I have also used CP/M, DOS, Windows, Linux (command line only) and MacOS through X. Not to neglect mention of DesqView & DR Dos. [:)]
I find it noteworthy that the current, not-yet-achieved, goal for Logos for Mac is "parity" with Windows. Creating a cross-platform app as complex as Logos 4 takes talent and time. I'm amazed at the speed of progress thus far.
Meanwhile, to everybody on the Mac platform who are ready to wave the white flag and abandon ship; [:-*] Logos runs rather nicely under Windows. You might give it a try. Seriously, & I'm not "playing" around here.
Now the conversation is over. [;)]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Must I leave now? Should I wait to be escorted out?
Well I'll leave that initiative to you.
Here's the thing though, if you say you've been round the block then I think you might/should have realised that people (Logos Windows users) joining the Mac forum with constructive/helpful comments would naturally be welcome, we're all using the same product and have the same desire to see it do well.
If however Windows users are going to come in with comments like "to everybody on the Mac platform who are ready to wave the white flag and abandon ship; Logos runs rather nicely under Windows." not divining (in the present situation) that statements like that 'add insult to injury' to Mac users (along with other off-topic remarks) without considering that, having said such, you should be making a bolt for the door, well then maybe you might just be escorted out.
You might, with your comments, have just pushed other persons to start demanding a full refund of L4M from Logos.
And now I think we really are done.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Matthew C Jones said:
If we are going to lop off all the branches that have been grafted into the Mac vine, we get back to just the orthodox old timers who have never used any other platform (people like Jack.)
That is not quite true. I have used Windows. Robert, look away, hide your eyes. It is not that bad. However, I do prefer the Mac OS.
Matthew C Jones said:Meanwhile, to everybody on the Mac platform who are ready to wave the white flag and abandon ship;
I really don't understand why anyone who has been with L4 Mac for any period of time would give up now. The progress made in the last couple of months is amazing.
Matthew C Jones said:Logos runs rather nicely under Windows. You might give it a try. Seriously, & I'm not "playing" around here.
I can't imagine any sensible person doing that.
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Patrick S. said:
wave the white flag and abandon ship
I did not choose the surrender metaphor, the OP did.
I'm not asking anyone to abandon Logos, just pointing out the option of running it under Windows. Most here claim they were once Windows users. If their dedication is to Bible study they can accomplish that well without buying another license. (A $200 PC will run Logos 4.) Logos is unique to allow installation on many different devices without requiring an additional license. I had to purchase two separate (expensive) licenses to move Adobe Creative Suite from my PC to Mac systems.
Rather than panicking, "The island's sinking, let's take to the sky"..... How about we take a good look at the present situation:
- Logos has produced a very impressive Bible software program for Windows.
- Bob Pritchett has generously defined the EULA.
- Logos is available on mobile devices without extra charge
- Logos has made long strides toward Mac/Win parity
- Different devices - one license.
Patrick S. said:well then maybe you might just be escorted out.
I think I hear boots outside in in the hall!
To everyone else: You can use your one license to run Logos on both Mac and Windows platforms. Bob says parity is coming.I believe him..Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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