Downloads should be pre-indexed
Most of the first-time indexing could be avoided by including indices with the downloaded resources. Then those could be combined after download, much more quickly than indexing from scratch. Indexing only needs to be done once for each resource. Why not do that indexing once, ever, when the resource is created and packaged? Why waste time and electricity by doing it from scratch on every client?
Comments
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Adam Porter said:
Most of the first-time indexing could be avoided by including indices with the downloaded resources. Then those could be combined after download, much more quickly than indexing from scratch. Indexing only needs to be done once for each resource. Why not do that indexing once, ever, when the resource is created and packaged? Why waste time and electricity by doing it from scratch on every client?
You're absolutely correct, O great one ! And to think that Logos managed to develop and ship a product which garnered a large installed base which was dependent upon the evil Microsoft product. Microsoft bad, Linux good.
Cut the nonsense.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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If you have something reasonable to say about my suggestion, please do. Otherwise, why are you here?
It's strange that some who care enough about something to defend it don't care enough about it to improve it.
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Adam Porter said:
Most of the first-time indexing could be avoided by including indices with the downloaded resources. Then those could be combined after download, much more quickly than indexing from scratch. Indexing only needs to be done once for each resource. Why not do that indexing once, ever, when the resource is created and packaged? Why waste time and electricity by doing it from scratch on every client?
Adam, I suggested that very thing from the beginning when I first started using Logos 4. It makes a lot of sense. Then it was explained to me that if they did that, we'd have more to download. I still thought I would prefer waiting for a longer download once and not having to reindex everything; just merge previously built indexes.
Nevermind George. He can be a bit of a curmudgeon at times. He's a good guy, though. I think he just thought you came on too strong in that other thread and had his hackles up already here. Keep up your suggestions. Realize that you're a relative newcomer to an already existing online community, and some of your ideas may already have been hashed and rehashed over again. So responses to what you suggest might reflect people's experience with previous discussions you are not aware of. You can search the forums to see if something you're thinking of has already been brought up here and debated to death. The forum search feature is pretty lame, so Google is a better choice, with site:community.logos.com appended to the search criteria.
And welcome to the Logos forums. I hope you have some better luck with your suggestions and questions in the future.
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Adam Porter said:
If you have something reasonable to say about my suggestion, please do. Otherwise, why are you here?
It's strange that some who care enough about something to defend it don't care enough about it to improve it.
I was about to ask you the same question, "Why are you here?" It seems that your sole aim is to be disagreeable. If you have something to say that isn't simply a complaint, but is truly a suggestion, I'm sure we would all be interested in listening. The fact is that you came in using pejorative language about Microsoft and Logos for using Microsoft as though you know more than Microsoft or Logos. If you're such a hot shot, why don't you start from scratch and produce your own product rather than simply knocking others?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rosie, yeah, I think downloading a few more MB would happen much more quickly for the average user than indexing from scratch.
George: almost any complaint could be evaluated as a suggestion, and indeed that's how every business should treat customer complaints: problems that were encountered and need to be fixed. I don't understand your apologetics--are you a Logos developer? I paid for the software and have as much right to talk about it here as you do. You are fixating on my ideological arguments and ignoring the simple suggestions I have made. Why don't you just ignore me?
We'd all be better off if we spent more time in the Word than arguing here. I'm sad to say that I've spent more time doing this today than reading the Bible.
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Adam Porter said:
I don't understand your apologetics--are you a Logos developer?
No - Logos employees are identifiable by their own blue icon beneath their name. Most days go without arguments on the forums. Today seemed to bring the arguments out.
Adam Porter said:We'd all be better off if we spent more time in the Word than arguing here.
As you will find as you spend time in the forums we can count more fingers and toes than argumentative forum dwellers < .000003% if I calculated correctly. Sorry your first forays into the forums had uncommon results.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
Adam, I suggested that very thing from the beginning when I first started using Logos 4. It makes a lot of sense. Then it was explained to me that if they did that, we'd have more to download. I still thought I would prefer waiting for a longer download once and not having to reindex everything; just merge previously built indexes.
My Logos4 folder is 24GB - I wouldn't be too keen on downloading all of that. I'd rather my machine worked away on the index.
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Adam Porter said:
Most of the first-time indexing could be avoided by including indices with the downloaded resources. Then those could be combined after download, much more quickly than indexing from scratch. Indexing only needs to be done once for each resource. Why not do that indexing once, ever, when the resource is created and packaged? Why waste time and electricity by doing it from scratch on every client?
Observation: this suggestion was discussed in November 2009 - Wiki page Logos Speaks includes Why no prebuilt indexes? => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3608/27733.aspx#27733
Concur building indexes locally provides Logos flexibility to enhance and change indexing algorithms. Looking in Indexer.log file noticed substantial time merging index files (can appear no progress being made for many minutes).
Also appreciate initial download/index frustration and wonder how to improve => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/28259.aspx
Keep Smiling [:)]
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When Logos adds Personal Book Builder (PBB) feature, local indexing should provide way to integrate personal book contents for searching on local computer with rest of Logos library.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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When Logos adds Personal Book Builder (PBB) feature, local indexing should provide way to integrate personal book contents for searching on local computer with rest of Logos library.
Keep Smiling
You still believe in the second coming of PBBs? I try also as much as I can... [:D]
Yes, indexing on the machine has some good reasons and future coming of PBBs is one of them.
P.S. and by the way, indexing now is very fast, comparing to the initial one when Logos 4 started.
Bohuslav
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Since indexing happens infrequently and it only goes for about an hour or two...I'm of the opinion that we keep the system as is....it doesn't bother me a bit....my system (old) works fine while indexing.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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When Logos adds Personal Book Builder (PBB) feature, local indexing should provide way to integrate personal book contents for searching on local computer with rest of Logos library.
That lends a new meaning to the term "parousia", n'est-ce pas?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Adam,
In the year + since Logos 4 was released there has been a lot of discussion about the design decisions made (.NET/WPF, indexing, downloading etc.). We've tried to keep an easy to use record of company responses at the Logos Speaks wiki page that Keep Smiling mentioned.
And, almost without fail Logos has said that there was a reason for why they made the decisions that they made. Of course that does not mean they have made the best decisions, but then again I suspect that most of us are not fully attuned to the technical challenges in accomplishing Logos' goal. So when it comes to the fundamental design features I choose to trust the Bob and his developers.
Logos is actually a very responsive company. The version you downloaded the other day is a vast improvement over the initial release. A number of features in it are solely the product of users saying "we want this." For example, the inline interlinear display was one such development. I could continue but suffice it to say that Logos has a proven track record of adjusting the to do list to give users desired features.
So, if someone hasn't directed you there yet, check out Logos' Uservoice forum and contribute your ideas there too.
BTW welcome to the forum.
Prov. 15:23
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
You still believe in the second coming of PBBs? I try also as much as I can...
Have to say my belief is waining in this area too - must keep faith - but am begining to have doubts...
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Adam Porter said:
Most of the first-time indexing could be avoided by including indices with the downloaded resources. Then those could be combined after download, much more quickly than indexing from scratch. Indexing only needs to be done once for each resource. Why not do that indexing once, ever, when the resource is created and packaged? Why waste time and electricity by doing it from scratch on every client?
One practical problem with pre-indexing (a thought which has gone through my mind) is that no two users' sets of resources are identical. So even if Logos maintained a per-resource index that could be downloaded with the resource, you wouldn't end up with an "inter-resource" (my term) index. This causes problems already in that certain searches will provide two sets of results, one from your main index and one from a supplemental index. I think the "reindex all" command will rebuild everything back into a single index. But I think the point is obvious - each user's index is essentially unique.
Donnie
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Agree with Adam. Having seen the search speeds for the internet versions of Logos (Library/Biblia) for my library, the on-PC concept does make you wonder. I'd be willing to bet Logos (or it's next name) users will look back on when they used to literally index their books on their PCs for hours, for thousands of books. They'll each brag how long it took and how big a computer each one had to try to get some decent performance. Those will be the good days.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Well then these are the good old days.Denise Barnhart said:Those will be the good days.
<note type=mental>argg, now I have Carly Simon crooning in my head</note>
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
George Somsel said:
When Logos adds Personal Book Builder (PBB) feature, local indexing should provide way to integrate personal book contents for searching on local computer with rest of Logos library.
That lends a new meaning to the term "parousia", n'est-ce pas?
oui monsieur [;)]
Wonder which arrival will happen first: PBB or Trumpet Call ? (When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound ...)
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Robert Pavich said:
Since indexing happens infrequently and it only goes for about an hour or two...I'm of the opinion that we keep the system as is....it doesn't bother me a bit....my system (old) works fine while indexing.
[Y] My systems work fine as well.
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Denise Barnhart said:
Agree with Adam. Having seen the search speeds for the internet versions of Logos (Library/Biblia) for my library, the on-PC concept does make you wonder. I'd be willing to bet Logos (or it's next name) users will look back on when they used to literally index their books on their PCs for hours, for thousands of books. They'll each brag how long it took and how big a computer each one had to try to get some decent performance. Those will be the good days.
I would not be too loud with your suggestions of not having the indexes and resources in our computers down here but in the cloud because that was the direction the president of Logos would like to take in the future, but us, most of the users, insisted we want to have our books downloaded and usable off-line. So yes, it might be in the future, when Internet will be even on the moon, but not yet, not yet... It still happens to me very often (and I think I am not alone) that I am so happy to have Logos off-line with me because I am not on the Internet.
Bohuslav
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Having been a DB developer with the most successful business db for years, I can tell you that the idea of pre-shipping an index with an individual resource doesn't really make sense. What you could ship, would be not really change the user experience.
One of the options would be to ship a "pre-indexed" version of the "boxed" product/base package, but I'm guessing they've looked at this.
I actually think Logos has done a fantastic job with the approach they've taken, they could make the initial install for new people, from DVD(s) a bit easier with preindexing of base package, but not much more.
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Mike S. said:
I actually think Logos has done a fantastic job with the approach they've taken, they could make the initial install for new people, from DVD(s) a bit easier with preindexing of base package, but not much more.
Even then, unless someone had only the base package, it would have to be re-indexed anyway.
Right?
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:Mike S. said:
I actually think Logos has done a fantastic job with the approach they've taken, they could make the initial install for new people, from DVD(s) a bit easier with preindexing of base package, but not much more.
Even then, unless someone had only the base package, it would have to be re-indexed anyway.
Right?
True, but probably the vast majority of first-time buyers start with a base package only, and only add other stuff later once they've gotten used to the software. Having the out-of-the-box experience be as pain-free as possible is likely to attract more people to stick with it.
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Denise Barnhart said:
I'd be willing to bet Logos (or it's next name) users will look back on when they used to literally index their books on their PCs for hours, for thousands of books
Certainly the types and methods of indexing in db's has changed significantly - much of it driven by mathematical models of efficiency, some driven by primary use - data warehouse vs. XML doc vs. normalized data, some driven by hardware. But what appears to be missing from the thread is that user generated data is also indexed by Logos 4. I think the data on which your index is dependent is:
- software version - as some versions add indexing requirements
- base package
- resources added to base package
- user generated data
Personally, on these factors I'd rather generate the indexes on my machine than pay for the increased Logos overhead. I'm looking forward to admitting I've actually read books printed on paper by hand carved wooden blocks.[:D] - back in the old days, of course.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'm not sure how common this is, but some people do not have unlimited internet plans. Bigger downloads would not be appealing to someone on one of those service plans.
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Michael Anda said:
I'm not sure how common this is, but some people do not have unlimited internet plans. Bigger downloads would not be appealing to someone on one of those service plans.
A Good point Michael, since downloading an index would be roughly the same size as your books hence doubling the download altogether from 4.2G to 8.4G in no time flat. :-)
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Rosie Perera said:
True, but probably the vast majority of first-time buyers start with a base package only, and only add other stuff later once they've gotten used to the software. Having the out-of-the-box experience be as pain-free as possible is likely to attract more people to stick with it.
But not every purchase of a Base package is by a first time user - but purchased as an upgrade. There would need to be two sets of down loads for each Base Package - one for first time users and one for up-graders. This may just add to the confusion some people feel when they first are introduced to LOGOS.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Bohuslav ... I'm the one that whines when Bob wants to upload my settings/highlights/etc. I'm also the one that keeps my internet settings turned off, knowing full well that when I buy a resource, I dutifully turn them back on, and Bob happily uploads all my settings/highlighting/etc. I'm also the one that was populating my L3 during 2010, with the assumption that Bob will eventually pull the plug on L3. So, I'm not real thrilled with 'the cloud'.
But that said, I also recognize Logos has to compete and users are not as backward as I am. And given the huge library that Logos offers, high-speed pattern matching will inevitably be its next forte (similar to Google books). That plus the inter-connecting to church presentation software and the eventual ability for members to also share ... the cloud is the only way it can be done. Certainly not now, but maybe L5 or L6.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
Bohuslav ... I'm the one that whines when Bob wants to upload my settings/highlights/etc. I'm also the one that keeps my internet settings turned off, knowing full well that when I buy a resource, I dutifully turn them back on, and Bob happily uploads all my settings/highlighting/etc. I'm also the one that was populating my L3 during 2010, with the assumption that Bob will eventually pull the plug on L3. So, I'm not real thrilled with 'the cloud'.
But that said, I also recognize Logos has to compete and users are not as backward as I am. And given the huge library that Logos offers, high-speed pattern matching will inevitably be its next forte (similar to Google books). That plus the inter-connecting to church presentation software and the eventual ability for members to also share ... the cloud is the only way it can be done. Certainly not now, but maybe L5 or L6.
I am afraid you are right Denise.
Bohuslav
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