Church History, Worship, & Baptism
I am doing some research on baptism in church history. What would you suggest as the best Logos resource for this topic?
thanks!
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There are many good resources, depending on what you are looking for and what you have in your library. One resource I have found interesting related to a discussion of Baptism in the early church is the Didache. If you have this resource it is worth reading The Didache
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I did a search for baptism in my Church History collection, and these are the most significant sections that come up:
"Augustine and the transformation of Baptism" (Chapter 10) in The Origins of Christendom in the West by Alan Kreider. Much cheaper if you get it as part of the Church Origins Collection.
"§ 54. Baptism" (in Volume 1, Chapter IX, "Worship in the Apostolic Age"), "§ 70. The Celebration of Baptism" and "§ 73. Infant Baptism" (in Volume 2, Chapter V "Christian Worship"), " § 92. Baptism" (in Volume 3, Chapter VII, "Public Worship and Religious Customs and Ceremonies"), and "§ 114. Baptism and Confirmation (in Volume 5, Chapter XIV "The Sacramental System") in History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff.BAPTISM in "Chapter 2: The House-Church" in The First Advance: AD 29-500.
"The Apostolic Practice of Baptism" (Chapter 9) in Worship in the Early Church.
There's also some good source material on baptism in A New Eusebius: Documents Illustrating the History of the Church to AD 337 by James Stevenson, including a relevant excerpt from The Didache (an early apostolic manual of instruction), etc.
(Those last two come as part of the Early Church History Collection.)
Depending on where you want to focus your research, you might also want to explore the histories of some segments of the church which have defined themselves primarily or largely on their understanding of baptism, such as the Anabaptists and the Baptists. Some books that might help you here are:- The Anabaptist Story: An Introduction to Sixteenth-Century Anabaptism
- The Baptist Heritage: Four Centuries of Baptist Witness
EDIT: Somehow one part of the paragraph on Schaff above got moved to the end. I've fixed it, but if you looked at this before, then check again.
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Thanks, that helps a lot.
Rosie, maybe you would know.... I am trying to do research on a fairly unique topic. I pretty much assume that baptism should be done within the context of a local church (not by lone baptizers who proof-text Matthew 28), but I am trying to respond to someone who thinks that that is a possibility. I have gathered some of my own ideas, but I was hoping to find some Logos resources. Do any of your resources discuss who can administer baptism? I searched my resources, and I think most just "assume" the practice that we all take for granted, but few address this issue directly.
thanks again. I'm always shocked by the thoroughness and helpfulness of this forum.
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Joel J. said:
I am doing some research on baptism in church history. What would you suggest as the best Logos resource for this topic?
thanks!
Joel,
Jack Cottrell has a great little book called "Baptism: A Biblical Study" in Logos and Dr. Everett Ferguson has a book entitled: "The Church of Christ" that has a section on baptism. Alan Cairns book "Dictionary of Theological Terms" has a few references to Baptism. The "NET Bible Notes" has quite a few references to Baptism. The "Apologetics Study Bible" has some interesting thoughts on Baptism and how it is often used/abused by other groups. Lots of references in the Early Church Fathers.
In doing a quick search by just typing "Baptism" into a basic search yielded over 46,000 references in my library in a matter of 3 seconds. I did not refine that search any further, but I'm sure that if you will do a similar search you can drill down to what you want/need in no time at all.
Good hunting.
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Joel J. said:
I am trying to do research on a fairly unique topic. I pretty much assume that baptism should be done within the context of a local church (not by lone baptizers who proof-text Matthew 28), but I am trying to respond to someone who thinks that that is a possibility. I have gathered some of my own ideas, but I was hoping to find some Logos resources. Do any of your resources discuss who can administer baptism? I searched my resources, and I think most just "assume" the practice that we all take for granted, but few address this issue directly.
Hi Joel, unfortunately baptism has been one of the most divisive subjects throughout the history of Christianity, including who should administer it. And arguments over it can be all the more vehement because baptism is so close to the core of what it means to be a Christian, so people hold very dearly to their positions on it. Whole groups of people have been cast out of the church as heretics because they believed the "wrong" way about this (what if the baptizer was someone who was incorrectly baptized himself, does that invalidate the baptism, and on and on). Read up on the Donatist controversy (e.g., Augustine "On Baptism, Against the Donatists" in Early Church Fathers (NPNF1:4) if you have that, and anywhere in your bible dictionaries and encyclopedias where you can find Donatist or Donatism)
In my own journey of understanding baptism I've come to believe that generosity on this topic and a willingness to concede that our brothers and sisters might have a valid alternative viewpoint is important. One of the books that helped me along my journey (unfortunately not in Logos) is The Water that Divides by Donald Bridge and David Phypers. It's by a baptist and a paedo-baptist who come together despite their differing traditions. You might be able to find it through a local library or Inter-Library Loan, or on the used book market.
Anyway, to specifically address your question, it's generally not good to respond to someone else from a standpoint of "I pretty much assume" so I'm glad you're doing your homework. Start with Scripture. I can think of a couple of places off the top of my head where someone was baptized outside of the context of a local church: Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch -- "Here is water, why shouldn't I be baptized?" (Acts 8:26-40), and the Philippian jailer and his family in their home (Acts 16:25-34). Not that one should add those to the "prooftext" of Matt 28 and come to the conclusion that lone baptizers are always right to do what they're doing. But it's a little more complex than you might think. And again, I caution you that love and generosity, and not thinking we must have one right answer, are probably a good approach on this potentially contentious topic. There are ideals and there are also times when circumstances demand that we let go of those ideals. Perhaps the circumstances in the NT stories I cited above warranted going outside of the bounds of what would have been best under ideal circumstances. I don't know. You might also consider another non-ideal case of baptism administered when someone (whether adult or child) is about to die. Possibly not practical to have them in a local church setting for that. Also the thief on the cross who believed but was never baptized, however Jesus assured him he would be with him in paradise. In all of this, I believe our God is gracious.
Peace and blessings to you as you study further and discuss this with your friend or online correspondent.
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On a related topic, I'm considering doing a thesis on the Lord's Supper. Know of any good resources in this area?
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Rosie Perera said:
... unfortunately baptism has been one of the most divisive subjects throughout the history of Christianity, including who should administer it. And arguments over it can be all the more vehement because baptism is so close to the core of what it means to be a Christian, so people hold very dearly to their positions on it. ...
Observation: due to divisiveness, many English versions use Greek transliteration of baptism instead of translating.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Rosie Perera said:
Also the thief on the cross who believed but was never baptized, however Jesus assured him he would be with him in paradise
or said another way, God is never constrained by his own laws or sacraments.
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Richard Wardman said:
On a related topic, I'm considering doing a thesis on the Lord's Supper. Know of any good resources in this area?
Oh yes! I've done quite a bit of research on that. Here are some helpful books:
In Logos:
- The Lord's Supper: Five Views by Gordon T. Smith
- Part Four, "The Lord's Supper" in The Sacred Actions of Christian Worship (Library of Christian Worship: Volume 6) by Robert Webber
- The Mass Versus the Lord’s Supper by H.A. Ironside (more polemical)
- In Remembrance of Me: A Manual on Observing the Lord’s Supper
Not in Logos:
- Take Eat, Take Drink: The Lord's Supper through the Centuries by Ernest Bartels
- Understanding Four Views on the Lord's Supper, edited by John H. Armstrong
- A Holy Meal: The Lord's Supper in the Life of the Church by Gordon T. Smith
- Appointment with God: Some Thoughts on Holy Communion by J.B. Phillips
- Last Supper & Lord's Supper by I. Howard Marshall
- The Eucharist by Alexander Schmemann
- Breaking Bread: The Spiritual Significance of Food by Sara Covin Juengst
And here are some more from the bibliography of a course I took in seminary called "Food: Creation, Community and Communion" -- I specifically pulled out the ones related to the Lord's Supper:
Adam, Adolf. The Eucharistic Celebration: The Source and Summit of Faith.
Bonhoeffer, Dietrich. Life Together.
Emminghaus, Johannes H. The Eucharist: Essence, Form, Celebration.
Fabing, Robert. Real Food: A Spirituality of the Eucharist.
Feeley-Harnik, Gillian. The Lord’s Table: Eucharist and Passover in Early Christianity.
Hay, Leo C. Eucharist: A Thanksgiving Celebration.
Hellwig, Monika K. The Eucharist and the Hunger of the World. In this fine little book put out by Paulist Press, Hellwig enlarges our sense of what the Eucharist means, as Schmemann would put it, “for the life of the world”.
Jasper, Ronald, and Geoffrey Cuming. Prayers of the Eucharist: Early and Reformed. More than prayers, this book gives the background of the Eucharist in thought and practice from early Jewish, pre-Jesus feast days and family meal blessings though to the Protestant Episcopal prayers of the late 1700s.
Knox, Ronald. The Mass in Slow Motion.
LaVerdiere, Eugene. Dining in the Kingdom of God: The Origins of the Eucharist According to Luke. Chicago: Liturgy Training Publications (1994)
McGloin, Joseph T. How to Get More out of the Mass. Liguori, Mo.: Liguori Publications (1974).
McGowan, Michael. The Bread of Life: The Eucharist.
Miles, Sara. Take This Bread: A Radical Conversion.
Montoya, Angel F. Méndez.. Theology of Food: Eating and the Eucharist. Malden, MA Wiley-Blackwell (2009).
Power, David N. The Eucharistic Mystery: Revitalizing the Tradition
Rosen, Ceil and Moishe. Christ in the Passover: Why is this Night Different? Written by
a Jewish couple who are trying bring their heritage together with their Christian faith, this book gives a rounded richness to a Christian celebration of the Passover.
Schmemann, Alexander. For the Life of the World. A brief but brilliant exposition of
the theological meaning of food, centered on the Eucharist, by one of the greatest of recent Orthodox theologians.
Smith, Dennis E. From Symposium to Eucharist: The Banquet in the Early Christian World. An often-referenced book: Smith discusses the cultural patterns of meals in the Greco-Roman world and the possible insight they give to the Eucharist meal.
Stamps, Robert Julian. The Sacrament of the Word Made Flesh: The Eucharistic Theology of Thomas F. Torrance. Edinburgh : Rutherford House (2007)
Starenko, Ronald C. Eat, Drink and Be Merry. St. Louis: Concordia (1971). On the need to be human in our celebration of the Eucharist.
Wainwright, Geoffrey. Eucharist and Eschatology.
Wright, Tom. The Meal Jesus Gave Us: Understanding Holy Communion.
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which translations are these?
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Joel, in coming up with the list of resources on the Lord's Supper, I realized I'd left out a significant one on baptism for you:
Part Three, "Baptism" in The Sacred Actions of Christian Worship (Library of Christian Worship: Volume 6) by Robert Webber
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Thanks again, Rosie.
I agree that we should not make baptism a divisive issue between believers... If the other person takes a divisive stance, then we must respond, but we can do so with love and scriptural reference.
As an update, the Logos "baptism collection" is stellar. (At least one of the books has a 5-star rating on Amazon.) There are two paragraphs on my particular concern, but it is worded with helpful clarity. Because there are so many aspects related to baptism, these particular resources proved to be worthwhile.
Thanks for the book suggestions. They definitely pointed me in the right direction.
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Joel J. said:
As an update, the Logos "baptism collection" is stellar. (At least one of the books has a 5-star rating on Amazon.) There are two paragraphs on my particular concern, but it is worded with helpful clarity. Because there are so many aspects related to baptism, these particular resources proved to be worthwhile.
Excellent! Turns out I have those, but I didn't find them for you because I was (intentionally) restricting my search to my Church History collection. Oops! Time to add "Infant Baptism in Historical Perspective" to my Church History collection. [:)] And I must remember to check for the key word in titles I own next time. Here are some more:
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Rosie Perera said:
unfortunately baptism has been one of the most divisive subjects throughout the history of Christianity, including who should administer it.
Somehow, I'd missed this as a divisive subject - do you have a reference re: history of baptism among the Protestants? I'd be interested.
Edit: I looked on Wikipedia - I didn't know there were so many diverse opinions. I'd only known of:
- infant?s yes/no
- immersion only? yes/no
- required? yes/no
- trinitarian formula? yes/no
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Somehow, I'd missed this as a divisive subject - do you have a reference re: history of baptism among the Protestants? I'd be interested/
Oh, careful there now. You're asking for evidence of divisiveness? That's not what we should be doing on these forums. Seriously, though, any time there are different viewpoints on something theological, there are bound to be some people who make it an issue to argue with others over, because they feel their viewpoint is the only right one and it's important enough to them to try to convince others to change their viewpoint or else to exclude those others who won't change from their fellowship. Maybe Protestants have been plagued more with this trouble than Catholics have been. But surely you must be aware that baptism isn't something that every Christian throughout all of history has been on the same page about?
I don't know of a particular resource in Logos to recommend to you for understanding the different viewpoints Protestants have on baptism, but perhaps Understanding Four Views on Baptism (Counterpoints: Church Life) might be good. Or From Exorcism to Ecstasy: Eight Views of Baptism, or Baptism: Three Views. None of those are in Logos, though. In Logos, perhaps Infant Baptism in Historical Perspective: Collected Studies would give some insight.
By "divisive" I did not necessarily mean Protestants splitting up denominations over it, by the way. I was thinking of the Donatist controversy which was much longer ago than the Catholic/Protestant split (it was a big deal back then whether someone who had been baptized by someone who had caved in to the Roman Empire and then come back to the church could be admitted to fellowship; people were called heretics over it). And the different theological interpretations between Protestants and Catholics over the efficacy of baptism (is it a saving ordinance or is it just an outward sign -- it might be more that Protestants have misunderstood what Catholics believe about it than an actual difference, though; however Protestants are not at all united on what they believe about it either, and no doubt Catholics aren't all sure what they believe on it either, nor probably do they really feel it's essential to be sure as some Protestants feel it is). Protestants have also had church divisions over differing interpretations of eligibility for (adult believers only or only children of believing parents or all infants) and mode of baptism (full immersion vs. pouring/sprinkling). And some people simply dispute about it whether they divide churches over it or not.
Here's a joke I heard from Eugene Peterson that pokes fun of the unnecessary divisiveness over this issue:
A Baptist and a Presbyterian were arguing over the proper mode of baptism. The Baptist insisted that it must be full immersion. The Presbyterian countered that in his tradition a sprinkling on the top of the head was sufficient." They went back and forth at some length over it. The Presbyterian said, "You mean if I step into the water up to my ankles that would not constitute a legitimate baptism?" The Baptist said, "No. It must be full immersion." "What if I went in up to my waist?" "No. It must be full immersion." "What about if I went in all the way up to my neck?" "No! It must be full immersion." "How about if I went in all the way up to over my eyebrows?" "Look, you don't understand! It must be full immersion!" "So if I went in all the way up to the top of my scalp I'd be properly baptized?" "Yes!" The Presbyterian got the final word: "So, what you're essentially saying is that it's the water on the top of the head that counts!"
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Rosie Perera said:
Now, that gave me a bit of a shock! I didn't have a clue that Logos had anything by Lars Hartman. Finally an author I actually know... [:)] He headed the NT department when I started with theology, and we went to the same church for years.
I might even have had the book if Logos hadn't chosen to leave two volumes of the SNTW out of Master's and make this one of them [:(]. And look at this:
That's about as absurd as it gets! Do they seriously think anyone is going to buy that volume separately? And I'm certainly not going to buy the whole collection for the full price when I've already got 5/7 of it! Not to talk about the price in itself: $130 for 215 pages!
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Rosie Perera said:
By "divisive" I did not necessarily mean Protestants splitting up denominations over it, by the way. I was thinking of the Donatist controversy which was much longer ago than the Catholic/Protestant split
There was also a similar, but even more far-reaching, controversy in the high and/or late Middle Ages, when one of the heretical groups in southern France (I've forgotten which) taught that if the administrator of the baptism fell away, all of his baptisms were invalid and had to be redone. And I don't mean all the baptisms he did after he came back to faith -- like with the donatists -- I mean all the baptisms he had ever done. If you were baptized by X in year 1 and X gave in under torture in year 50, your baptism was invaiid and you'd go to hell if you died before you found out and could have it redone. Somehow I would have thought such a teaching shouldn't attract too many people, but it did...
At the absolutely opposite end we have the Catholic church which allows for even a Muslim midwife to perform a valid baptism of a dying newborn, as long as the right words are said and the intent is to perform a Christian baptism into the Catholic church. I don't know if any of the Protestant churches goes that far?
I believe that the first known controversy over baptism was about whether baptism should take place on the eighth day -- like circumcision -- or on the day of birth itself.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Rosie Perera said:Richard Wardman said:
On a related topic, I'm considering doing a thesis on the Lord's Supper. Know of any good resources in this area?
(...)
Not in Logos:
I'd suggest Scott Hahn: The Lamb's Supper, and also The Hunt for the Fourth Cup by the same author.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Rosie Perera said:
I was thinking of the Donatist controversy which was much longer ago than the Catholic/Protestant split
Got it. I wasn't thinking of cases such as the Donatist where the differences on baptism were the result of broader issues. I do like the "multi-views on" type of resources and will look into your suggestions.
Because my interests are heavily liturgical and Scriptural my library on baptism has little overlap with Logos - but I recommend all of them:
- Documents of the Baptismal Liturgy (Pueblo Books) by E. C. Whitaker and Maxwell E. Johnson
- Reformation And Modern Rituals And Theologies of Baptism: From Luther to Contemporary Practices (Liturgy, Worship and Society Series) (Liturgy, Worship and Society Series) by Bryan D. Spinks
- The Shape of Baptism: The Rite of Christian Initiation (Studies in the Reformed Rites of the Catholic Church) by Aidan Kavanagh
- Early And Medieval Rituals And Theologies of Baptism: From the New Testament to the Council of Trent (Liturgy, Worship and Society Series) (Liturgy, Worship and Society Series) by Bryan D. Spinks
- The Baptismal Liturgy of Jerusalem (Liturgy, Worship & Society Series) by Juliette Day
- Of Water and the Spirit: A Liturgical Study of Baptism by Alexander Schmemann
- Springtime of the Liturgy: Liturgical Texts of the First Four Centuries (Classics in liturgy) by Deiss
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
I did a search for baptism in my Church History collection, and these are the most significant sections that come up:
I read this entire thread and once again Rosie, your helpfulness and the effort you put forth to answer questions amazes me.
I have no idea where you find the time, but your consistent efforts on this board make it clear that you consider helping so many of us a ministry.
Thank you for your wisdom, your seemingly boundless commitment in time and energy, and your loving spirit. For one with so many posts, it's amazing how many of them are such a blessing to so many. God bless you.
Mike (who would post more, but genuinely doesn't know how to help in most cases, and so remains quiet)
Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4
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MJ. Smith said:
Edit: I looked on Wikipedia - I didn't know there were so many diverse opinions. I'd only known of:
- infant?s yes/no
- immersion only? yes/no
- required? yes/no
- trinitarian formula? yes/no
It doesn't take much. Even just those are responsible for a large amount of the divisiveness over baptism. And for some people, some of those questions are really big deals, questions of obedience vs. disobedience to God, or even whether one is really saved or not.
Joel J. said:Do any of your resources discuss who can administer baptism?
Thanks to MJ's mention of the Wikipedia article, I looked there and saw that it's got a pretty lengthy section on Officiator (who can administer baptism) which shows you some of the diversity in different branches of Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Officiator
Michael March said:I read this entire thread and once again Rosie, your helpfulness and the effort you put forth to answer questions amazes me.
I have no idea where you find the time, but your consistent efforts on this board make it clear that you consider helping so many of us a ministry.
Yes, I do consider it a ministry. I find the time by cheating myself on sleep sometimes, procrastinating on other things I "should" be doing, and the fact that I don't have full-time employement so I do have a lot of discretionary time on my hands. I just choose to use a lot of it on helping others because I enjoy doing that, and I learn a lot in the process. And somewhere, even if only in the hereafter, there must be a prize for reaching 10,000 posts... [;)]
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I've found Beasley-Murray's work on baptism, Baptism A New Testament Study, to be a definitive and comprehensive work. It should be able to answer most of your questions with historical precedents - - all in one volume.
Here's the link http://www.logos.com/product/7211/baptism-in-the-new-testament
Also, the Ante-Nicene Fathers provide plenty of early commentary on biblical passages about baptism. Look at Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, and Clement of Alexandria. It's all found in the Early Church Fathers Protestant collection in volumes 1-10. http://www.logos.com/product/5771/early-church-fathers-protestant-edition
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Joel J. said:
I am doing some research on baptism in church history. What would you suggest as the best Logos resource for this topic?
thanks!
One of the best is Jack Cottrell's volume. It's cheap but very useful: http://www.logos.com/product/7934/baptism-a-biblical-study
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I agree with you, our God is gracious.Rosie Perera said:Also the thief on the cross who believed but was never baptized, however Jesus assured him he would be with him in paradise. In all of this, I believe our God is gracious.
One answer to the thief/paradise/baptism question is: Because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead the thief dies under the old covenant and went to paradise ("Abraham's bosom", Sheol, the abode of the dead.) Once Christ had resurrected, paradise was emptied and the ordinance of baptism a-la-Romans 6 kicks in and joins him to the body of Christ.
One very interesting case to consider is one you may well be familiar with. Thomas Campbell & his son Alexander were baptized as infants in the Presbyterian Church in Scotland . When they were later convinced pedo-baptism was not valid because the infant had not chosen to be baptized, they were faced with a catch-22. Who could administer scriptural baptism to Thomas & Alexander? (& their other church members?) They assumed only a baptized believer could administer scriptural baptism to a candidate. They solved their problem by asking the local Baptist minister to baptize them. (Interesting because Baptists use baptism to join the local congregation; something Thomas and Alexander Campbell had already spilt from. They had previously been members of the Baptist congregation until an amicable parting.) This also brings up the question of "Baptist succession" and the licensing of ministers to preach and baptize.MJ. Smith said:Somehow, I'd missed this as a divisive subject - do you have a reference re: history of baptism among the Protestants? I'd be interested.
Later, when Alexander was out circuit preaching, his unbaptized son drowned in the pond at Bethany (their home.) The "faith-only crowd chided Alexander with letters to The Millennial Harbinger asking if baptism is necessary for salvation like Alexander taught it was, did this not mean his son was lost? Alexander finally said his son had wanted to be baptized but obedient to his father's directive, was waiting till he was older. So his obedience to his earthly father was somehow reckoned as substitutionary for the time being. (I liken it to Covenant theology - the children of the righteous are reckoned as righteous while the children of the wicked are reckoned wicked.)
I agree.Douglas Alvarenga said:One of the best is Jack Cottrell's volume.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I thoroughly enjoy this topic.
MJ. Smith said:(I liken it to Covenant theology - the children of the righteous are
reckoned as righteous while the children of the wicked are reckoned
wicked.).but this is perhaps not the most fair treatment of covenant theology.
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Sarel Slabbert said:MJ. Smith said:
(I liken it to Covenant theology - the children of the righteous are
reckoned as righteous while the children of the wicked are reckoned
wicked.).but this is perhaps not the most fair treatment of covenant theology.
I didn't say that .... Matthew did
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Sarel Slabbert said:MJ. Smith said:
(I liken it to Covenant theology - the children of the righteous are
reckoned as righteous while the children of the wicked are reckoned
wicked.).but this is perhaps not the most fair treatment of covenant theology.
I didn't say that .... Matthew did
Don't you just LOVE the way the forum software misrepresents quotes? [:D]
I cracked up, literally laughing out loud because you know it is a quirk of the software.
In all fairness to Covenant theology, my statement was extremely narrow. I am very favorable to my many friends in Michigan who better define it. I just threw it out there like that to show baptism isn't the only many-faceted issue. That is why the whole genre of "# Views of ???" is so valuable in Logos. The soon to be released Zondervan Counterpoints Collection (14 vols.) will be a valuable addition to our libraries.
- Evaluating the Church Growth Movement
- Exploring the Worship Spectrum
- Five Views on Apologetics
- Five Views on Law and Gospel
- Five Views on Sanctification
- Four Views on Eternal Security
- Four Views on Moving Beyond the Bible
- Four Views on the Book of Revelation
- Show Them No Mercy
- How Jewish Is Christianity?: Two Views on the Messianic Movement
- Remarriage After Divorce in Today's Church
- Who Runs the Church?
- Understanding Four Views on Baptism
- Understanding Four Views on the Lord's Supper
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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MJ. Smith said:
I didn't say that .... Matthew did
Truly sorry. I simply replied to the statement and your name was in the quote box. Not sure if it was my error or perhaps software error, but I remain responsible for not double checking before posting. Sorry for the inconvenience. [:$]
Matthew C Jones said:In all fairness to Covenant theology, my statement was extremely narrow.
I am very favorable to my many friends in Michigan who better define
it. I just threw it out there like that to show baptism isn't the only
many-faceted issue. That is why the whole genre of "# Views of ???" is
so valuable in Logos.How true. I am a pastor in a Protestant Church and what always puzzles me is how we Christians can fight about our disagreements rather than rejoice in our agreements. In the area where I work I am very fortunate to have great working relations with various different church leaders. Once you really listen to another believer's viewpoint you really start to treasure the greatness of God. So many viewpoints on God and none can claim to have the complete and total answer on who God really is... He is just to great to be reduced to a single theologian's (or church's) viewpoints. And we, as believers, have the blessing to know Him, and to learn more about Him from the way each of us understand His Word. Thanks again for this thread.
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Sarel Slabbert said:
but this is perhaps not the most fair treatment of covenant theology.
No, it is not. I meant it as a brazen example through satire. It demonstrates how people can easily misunderstand or sometimes intentionally misrepresent others' viewpoints to sway the uninformed to their specific interpretation.
The more resources we have to educate and discuss, the better we will understand each other. The threads about Atonement, baptism or inspiration of scripture open a lot of dialogue. I just chose Covenant theology because it has a remote descriptive application to what Alexander Campbell seems to have defaulted to. I really expected to hears cries of protest from my Campbellite heritage friends, not my Reformed friends. There was no insult intended to either group though. Bless you for not demanding my head.
added:
Sarel Slabbert said:and none can claim to have the complete and total answer on who God really is...
You'd be shocked how some try to make that claim. [:D]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Sarel Slabbert said:
Not sure if it was my error or perhaps software error,
It's easily done with this software ... it happens fairly frequently.
Matthew C Jones said:Alexander finally said his son had wanted
to be baptized but obedient to his father's directive, was waiting till
he was older. So his obedience to his earthly father was somehow
reckoned as substitutionary for the time being.I'll admit to knowing little Campbellite history except for hymnals. However, I'm glad he was on the journey to the "baptism of desire" Catholic belief [:D] Hummm... suppose it's somehow related to my Mennonite turned Campbellite great-grandfather taking an Irish Catholic wife? [Their son married a Finnish Lutheran which I think creates a natural ecumenical committee].
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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LOL I believe this explains so much about you Martha. :-)MJ. Smith said:Hummm... suppose it's somehow related to my Mennonite turned Campbellite great-grandfather taking an Irish Catholic wife? [Their son married a Finnish Lutheran which I think creates a natural ecumenical committee].
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
MJ. Smith said:
history of baptism among the Protestants
I'm not sure of a definitive work. Protestants don't really work like that [;)] - you'd probably have to read at least two-three books which would give you different perspectives. If you do, make sure you include this volume: http://www.librarything.com/work/62922
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
If you do, make sure you include this volume: http://www.librarything.com/work/62922
It's in Logos: The Anabaptist Story
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A recent book worth reading, IMO, is Come to the Table: Revisioning the Lord's Supper by John Mark Hicks. Eucharist by Louis Bouyer of the Oratory develops an interesting thesis.
Having been at various times Jewish, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox, I've experienced the gamut of ways to celebrate the Lord's Supper, and my present thoughts about it are similar to Hicks'. Is it a table or an altar? Is it a covenant meal between Jesus and those who are His, or an extension of Jesus' table meals with saints and sinners? The answers to these questions affect how people do the Lord's Table and decide who may participate, making what should be a sign and source of unity in the Body of Christ become a centuries-long source of division instead.
*sigh*
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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