I love Logos, but this is a shame.

I was excited to see a new John Wesley collection, but so disappointed to see what it amounts to.

The center piece is the 1909 Nehemiah Curnock edition of Wesley's Journal, and yes that is a little better than the old Jackson edition. However, to call Curnock's edition the "authoritative" edition is an outright - well as Christian brothers let's just say an "outright mistake."

We have been begging for the only authoritative and critical edition of Wesley's Works which Abingdon released with wonderful notes by Richard Heitzenrater (he cracked Wesley's secret code on his personal diaries) and Albert Outler and other great Wesleyan scholars. It is a crying shame to release another outdated edition without such scholarly notes.

The Curnock is availabe free of charge in ebook format all over the internet for various ebook readers. I know that is not the same thing. But how could you justify charging $200 for this? It is not that much better than the Jackson edition.

I think it is a disgrace and a shame, and yes, I am going to buy it. After all, the old Logos edition of Wesley isn't available on the iPad, but this one will be. So yes, I will buy it to have it on my iPad. But can you tell that I don't feel good about it?

Please get us the real authoritative Wesley's Works.

There, I have gotten that off my chest and I feel better now. Hey, you Calvinists know that we Methodists are emotional people.

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Comments

Matthew C Jones

we Methodists are emotional people.

[:D] Don't go holding anything back now, Michael.

With all those different versions I am amazed you don't have the Ages software. If you do, you can save another $45.

..............................secret code in his diaries??.............Now that sounds interesting!

Todd Phillips

We have been begging for the only authoritative and critical edition of Wesley's Works which Abingdon released with wonderful notes by Richard Heitzenrater

Maybe Abingdon is holding back until they see how the two New Interpreters sets fare in the Logos marketplace. Having you been begging Abingdon?

Mike Childs

Matt and Todd,

I appreciate the concern and moral support, brothers. We Wesleyans need all the support we can get.

Of course, I own the Ages and qualify for the discount. I own Arminius, Fletcher, and just about everything else in this set, with exception of the bit of new stuff.

And I have already been begging and begging Abingdon. But they keep exercising their free will to say no. Since they began a relationship with Logos by offering the Interpreter's Commentary, my little Wesleyan heart has been filled with hope that I would see big John released soon. Imagine my joy at seeing the new Wesley set, and then the disappointment that it is mostly what I already have, and all public domain editions that are quite dated. True, big John has not written much in the last few years, but Wesleyan scholarship has made drastic leaps with the newer Abingdon edition. Albert Outler's notes on the sermons is a gold mine. I recently bought the newer edition of Wesley in book form, but I still long for it in Logos,

I know I will feel better tomorrow. Think I will write Abingdon again. And Can It Be That I Should Gain, Outler's Wesley in Logos?

Giovanni Baggio

Michael,

You kind of look like this Mexican comedian. Are u sure u were not related to him in your past life? Look at him...[:D]and I have the glasses version of him too:

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/226870#Comment_226870

You know Uncle Carlos?

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/226695#Comment_226695

secret code in his diaries??.............Now that sounds interesting!

Yes, John Wesley wrote journals that he edited and published, but he kept private journals in a code that no one had been able to translate. Wesleyan scholar Richard Heitenrater managed to decode the personal diaries and has added greatly to our understanding of John Wesley. They are certainly interesting. Heitenrater edited the Journal portion of the Bicentenial Edition of Wesley's Works, while theologian Albert Outler edited the sermons. That is by far the standard edition for any scholarly study of Wesley. To put out a "new edition" consisting of public domain copies of the Journals that are over a century old, and call it "the authoritative edition" is just not right.

I assume that it is probably Abingdon's fault for not allowing Logos to publish them yet.

If one already has the Jackson edition, plus Wesley's Explanatory notes commentaries, plus Arminius, and Fletcher, etc. $155 seems a bit steep for the Curnock edition (95% of which is in the Jackson edition) plus a couple of very old and dated biographies. Especially, when the Curnock is availabe for free as pdf or ebook.

Since this edition contains the Jackson edition, and is going to be available on the iphone / ipad, I wonder if those who already own the Jackson edition will be able to access them on the iPad?

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/226883#Comment_226883

Under the new rules of ebook publishing what is authoritative is what the staff of the ebook publisher has determined what is authoritative. Welcome to new world and freedom of market dominance by one company and their editorial staff.

Kenneth Neighoff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/226905#Comment_226905

Michael,

Thanks for asking the question on the forum. I had the same question so I sent an email to customer service at Logos. I too have the Ages edition and the old Libronix version of these resources.

The reply that I received said that the new version of these files should download when released. I sent another email to the customer service rep who responded and ask if they could post something definite on the pre-pub page about this, to clear up confusion as it is posted now.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/226913#Comment_226913

I too have the Ages edition and the old Libronix version of these resources.

I have the Ages edition but never got around to buying the Libronix Wesleyan-Arminian Collection. It is now unavailable from any source I check.

I am assuming the more scholarly notes are of recent copyright and unrelated to the older (present Pre-Pub) title. If this is the case why would additional notes be a free update to the resource? If the content of the latest edition is Abingdon's copyright and the most desirable, I would expect there to be some licensing fee to obtain it. Abingdon is not giving away the New Interpreter's Bible and the New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible

...................Secretly coded diaries? I'm still amazed at that fact.

Kenneth Neighoff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/226926#Comment_226926

Michael and Matthew,

I received another email back from the customer service rep. He is sending my email to the marketing department, he states that the way it is written is confusing to him and he has been around Logos for a while.

When I get another update I will post it here.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227026#Comment_227026

Thanks Kenneth. I appreciate you looking into this for those of us who are very interested.

No one is expecting the "new" (if you can call 100 year old public domain editions "new") Curnock edition to be freely available. But most of this new Wesley collection will be the old Jackson edition and other resources that many of us already own. No new content in them. If resources that we already own in Logos format are put on the iPhone / iPad app, then one would expect that we could have access to them. My past experience with Logos is that they always are more than fair. I would be shocked it this is not the policy. I have never seen this company fail to try to do the right thing.

No serious student of Wesley would question that the Outler / Heitenrater edition is the one for study. (I found great used copies of it in book form on the net at a great price last year.) To get it on my computer, I guess I am going to have to buy Abingdon's ebook version until Logos eventually gets it. At least it is searchable, though nothing like Logos' functuality. And I will continue to urge Abingdon and Logos to publish a Logos edition. Perhaps if the recent Abingdon releases sell, they will also release Wesley to Logos.

And I probably will break down and buy the "new" Logos Wesley collection being offered now. I am a push over for Wesley. There is no doubt the collection is worth $200 if you don't already own most of it. Curnock is better than the Jackson edition, but it just covers the journals. I am not as sure that Curnock is worth $155 if you already own most of the collection.

nicky crane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227068#Comment_227068

Thanks for the tip - I'm downloading curnock - will probably be enough for me as a non-methodist (tho members of a methodist church sup-port me in prayer and I hope to be worshipping with them this Sunday) and a non-academic...

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227068#Comment_227068

No serious student of Wesley would question that the Outler / Heitenrater edition is the one for study. (I found great used copies of it in book form on the net at a great price last year.) To get it on my computer, I guess I am going to have to buy Abingdon's ebook version until Logos eventually gets it. At least it is searchable, though nothing like Logos' functuality. And I will continue to urge Abingdon and Logos to publish a Logos edition. Perhaps if the recent Abingdon releases sell, they will also release Wesley to Logos.

If it's any consolation, we don't have the most current edition/translation of Calvin's Institutes in Logos either (the McNeill/Battles edition), which is also considered the one for study. P&R publishing hasn't seen fit to make it available in any electronic format, as far as I know. I have to crack the spine of a hardback book if I want to read it.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227154#Comment_227154

Thanks for the consolation, Todd. [:D] It is kind of my Calvinist brother to encourage an old Wesleyan.

I myself am a Wesleyan who is fan of Calvin. Calvin's commentaries are great. I have the old and the new set in Logos, and find much help in them. I also have the Institutes. (The great Spurgeon is one of my heroes, as is Martyn Lloyd-Jones, both Calvinists.)

One cannot over emphasize how valuable it is to have Wesley, Calvin, Spurgeon, Luther, and the other great preachers and theologians of the church in one's Logos library.

As an example of the advantage of having Wesley in a Logos library, I note the high regard that Wesley had for his Calvinist friend, George Whitefield. A search of Wesley's Works in my Logos library reveals much about their friendship. They had some very heated theological arguments, but they remained lifelong friends and always made up. It was at Whitefield's request that John Wesley preached Whitefield's funeral. The funeral sermon is included in my Logos library, and it is a heartfelt tribute of one Christian brother for another.

John Wesley often described himself as within a "hair's breadth" of Calvin on most doctrines. I find these quotes from Wesley in my Logos library, "I think on Justification just as I have done any time these seven-and-twenty years; and just as Mr. Calvin does. In this respect I do not differ from him an hair’s breadth."

And on another occasion Wesley wrote: Wherein may we come to the very edge of Calvinism?

(1.) In ascribing all good to the free grace of God.

(2.) In denying all natural free-will, and all power antecedent to grace. And,

(3.) In excluding all merit from man; even for what he has or does by the grace of God.

A search of the great Charles Spurgeon's sermons in my Logos library revealed this quote about Wesley and the early Methodists:

"Six young men were expelled from Oxford for praying, reading the Bible, and talking to poor people about Christ; and these six young men, with many others whom the Lord had hidden by fifties in the caves of the earth, secret and unknown — these young men, leaders of a glorious revival, came out, and though ridiculed and laughed at as Methodists they brought forth a great and glorious revival, almost equaling the commencement of the gospel triumphs under Paul and the apostles, and very little inferior to the great reformation of Luther, of Calvin and Zwingle."

How blessed we are to have so many of the great Christian writings available in Logos. To be able to instantly search for everything a Calvin, Spurgeon, or Wesley said about prayer, for example, is amazing.

Thank God for Logos!

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227205#Comment_227205

Sometimes these threads are quite entertaining...100 year old public domain items for hundred of dollars and its amazing to be able to search classic theological works with a $1000 plus program. I am thankful though to have what resources that I do given the nature of the industry at the moment. Better than just buying directly from Cokesbury I suppose.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227288#Comment_227288

100 year old public domain items for hundred of dollars and its amazing to be able to search classic theological works with a $1000 plus program.

The program is free--it's the resources that cost money.

You could buy a single resource and read it without additional cost. Just download the app installer.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227288#Comment_227288

Better than just buying directly from Cokesbury I suppose.

Much better, and cheaper!

I paid more per volume for my dead-tree books than I have for my Logos resources.

The largest my paper
library ever grew to was around 4000 volumes. That took a lot of space
for shelves, work for dusting, and time for organizing.

My Logos library has now surpassed my paper library in size and usefullness. (5455 volumes!) I can carry my whole library anywhere and search it in seconds.

It is one of the best investments I have made in my lifetime.
(I gained the perspective of education being an investment from Mary Pride, a homeschooling pioneer.)